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[N3DS]

There's not even close to enough of the actual game created to even know. I doubt they've thought about balance much, when something as simple as flying between two planets made their demo crash out.

... Wow I know this game is still not complete, but not this incomplete.

Anyway as long as the backers are happy with where this project is going I guess, all I heard about this game is that how successful the crowd funding was and how this is the ultimate game of all time.

 

[Soi-Fong]

No, I'm getting at that no game should need that much let alone more and still be freaking alpha. You get more than gta costs and you are still in alpha? And then it's ok to ask for more? I don't like how that sounds at all...

It's crazy to actually believe these 2k ships won't be better than regular ships when (if) the game ships.

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

 

[K.Jack]

So I am not familiar with those premium ships, are they p2w? Or it isn't clear what is 'winning' in this game?

Bugger concern is how the economy will work, in relation to the cost of ships.

How easy do you think they'll make it, to acquire a ship for which someone paid $2,000 real USD dollars?

 

[Soi-Fong]

Bugger concern is how the economy will work, in relation to the cost of ships.

How easy do you think they'll make it, to acquire a ship for which someone paid $2,000 real USD dollars?

When you're in Chris' shoes you don't think about those things, because on the end you'll have some crazy supporters that will keep on buying these ships.

They'd literally be cutting themselves if they start offering these ships with in game credits.

The greed with this game is just beyond the stars..

 

[Megalo]

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

?
You can change "supporters" by "informed people".

 

[Cartho]

Bugger concern is how the economy will work, in relation to the cost of ships.

How easy do you think they'll make it, to acquire a ship for which someone paid $2,000 real USD dollars?

I was just thinking that. It's going to be irritating for those people who did shell out $2000 for a ship if it can be obtained easily in the final game. But if they make the ship stupidly expensive in game then people will quite rightly complain that the economy is shit and balanced around obscenely priced micro transactions.

Like I said earlier: catch 22.

 

[Trogdor1123]

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

Maybe, except it's not really doing anything yet.

?
You can change "supporters" by "informed people".

I don't think that's really accurate but to each their own.

I really don't want to rain on the game. It's a really neat concept but there are so many obvious issues I don't see how people are walking along thinking it's all peachy keen.

 

[Megalo]

I don't think that's really accurate but to each their own.

I really don't want to rain on the game. It's a really neat concept but there are so many obvious issues I don't see how people are walking along thinking it's all peachy keen.

Yeah it still has a lot of issues and it is very much in development, obviously.
I'm not saying it is right now entirely more advanced than GTA V is. (this game is still right now the most technically impressive, imo).
But Star Citizen aims higher than GTA V and is already, on certain technical points, more advanced.

(now that I think about it, I don't even know why we are doing this comparison...)

 

[atpbx]

When you're in Chris' shoes you don't think about those things, because on the end you'll have some crazy supporters that will keep on buying these ships.

They'd literally be cutting themselves if they start offering these ships with in game credits.

The greed with this game is just beyond the stars..

What kind of bullshit is this?

I mean, there's FUD, there's being stupid, and there's just spouting bullshit.

 

[Javier23]

I don't think this will ever turn out alright, but whatever, don't understand why people fight over it. If 1.0 ever releases and it's good, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, oh well.

 

[atpbx]

No, I'm getting at that no game should need that much let alone more and still be freaking alpha. You get more than gta costs and you are still in alpha? And then it's ok to ask for more? I don't like how that sounds at all...

It's crazy to actually believe these 2k ships won't be better than regular ships when (if) the game ships.

So In your world, the only thing that determines the length of time a game takes to make is the amount of money that is thrown at it.

Mind = blown.

You don't like how it sounds, because, I don't want to sound insulting when I say this, you don't know what you are talking about.

The "2k ships" people are blathering about (of which there is one) , are the biggest most powerful ships in the game, but everyone will be able to get them, they won't be locked behind a paywall, they aren't special editions.

A couple of ships do have some cosmetic differences, but I thought us neckbeards as a whole where cool with limited cosmetics?

I mean, I get there are people who actively want the game to fail because they don't like the idea of crowd funding, or they are a bit simple, or the game isn't going to be the kind of thing they want to play etc.

But just making up shit and then getting angry about it like more than a couple of people do on this forum, its silly.

 

[GhostWriter24]

This game sounds like a scam.

 

[Raticus79]

When you're in Chris' shoes you don't think about those things, because on the end you'll have some crazy supporters that will keep on buying these ships.

They'd literally be cutting themselves if they start offering these ships with in game credits.

The greed with this game is just beyond the stars..

What kind of bullshit is this?

I mean, there's FUD, there's being stupid, and there's just spouting bullshit.

Everything can be earned in game when the game goes live, and during alpha, the ability to buy alpha ships with alpha credits is planned for 3.1. (source, also repeated by Chris on the stream)

The early head start is clearly an advantage at launch due to skipping ahead with grind time, but it's not like people are buying golden cash shop ships that are permanently better than what people can get playing normally.

 

[Dictator93]

This game sounds like a scam.

Lol

 

[Cartho]

So In your world, the only thing that determines the length of time a game takes to make is the amount of money that is thrown at it.

Mind = blown.

You don't like how it sounds, because, I don't want to sound insulting when I say this, you don't know what you are talking about.

The "2k ships" people are blathering about (of which there is one) , are the biggest most powerful ships in the game, but everyone will be able to get them, they won't be locked behind a paywall, they aren't special editions.

A couple of ships do have some cosmetic differences, but I thought us neckbeards as a whole where cool with limited cosmetics?

I mean, I get there are people who actively want the game to fail because they don't like the idea of crowd funding, or they are a bit simple, or the game isn't going to be the kind of thing they want to play etc.

But just making up shit and then getting angry about it like more than a couple of people do on this forum, its silly.

Do you see how HUGELY problematic this is though?

At 1.0 launch, there are going to be people in "the biggest and most powerful ships in the game". Day 1. That's going to happen because those people shelled out TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS for them. We're not talking a $15 DLC pack here, we're talking $2000.

How is that fair? If the ship is, as you say, "the biggest and most powerful ship in the game", then that is the very definition of Pay to Win. Except this isn't some shovelware freemium mobile game, this is a huge scale, AAA title which will presumably be priced at full retail price on launch.

Do you not see how appalling that is? If Valve started selling guns for CSGO which were flat out better than any other gun available, guns which you could earn in game or buy for real world cash, there would be an uproar. There would be an uproar even if the guns only cost $10.

How are they going to price that $2000 ship when the full game comes out? If they price it in line with all the other ships in the game then don't you think that's a massive fuck you to the guys who did splash out $2000 for it? If they make it insanely expensive, so that only the wealthiest players in the game will be able to afford it, then we're back to the whole "pay to win" thing again.

People MUST NOT be defending $2000 microtransactions because that's what these are, let's be under no illusions here. They are $2000 microtrasactions for a game which hasn't even been properly released yet and that is absolutely disgraceful.

This simply wouldn't fly in almost any other industry. When you start a project, you budget for it and make something within that budget. If you want to add extra things, you budget for those separately and start working on them, possibly alongside the original project but also after it has been finished. What CIG seem to be doing with SC here is using Kickstarter to raise a load of funds but then just continually adding more and more things to the project, beyond what they initially offered, and so they're now having to charge obscene amounts of money for in-game ships just to keep the project moving.

If this was a property development for example, the people who invested in it would be rightfully bloody furious by now. I fail to see why people keep defending CIG over it.

 

[nekkid]

I feel like Star Citizen is my perfect game.

On paper.

 

[Durante]

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

Well, in a lot of ways, it very clearly is.

 

[Pepboy]

I don't think this will ever turn out alright, but whatever, don't understand why people fight over it. If 1.0 ever releases and it's good, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, oh well.

In part because backers get rewards (a new gladius ship + special models) when they get referrals, it incentivizes backers to get more people enrolled. So that's one half.

But its also just to warn people of the dangers of this game. Providing balance and a variety of perspectives to help uninformed make a risky decision. You can see examples of this on this very page where people didn't know the game crashed mid demo.

Yet ultimately, the backers are quick to attack (personal insults/ad hominem) anyone offering even mild critique or words of warning. If people know the risks and want to back, that's great. But try mentioning these risks just gets endless "you know nothing" posts.

 

[KKRT00]

Do you see how HUGELY problematic this is though?

At 1.0 launch, there are going to be people in "the biggest and most powerful ships in the game". Day 1. That's going to happen because those people shelled out TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS for them. We're not talking a $15 DLC pack here, we're talking $2000.

How is that fair? If the ship is, as you say, "the biggest and most powerful ship in the game", then that is the very definition of Pay to Win. Except this isn't some shovelware freemium mobile game, this is a huge scale, AAA title which will presumably be priced at full retail price on launch.

First of all. Its not Pay to Win. You cannot fly multiple ships at once, second most ships require multiple people on board to fly them properly. third how is this different if you started one week or one month after launch?
There never will be equality, forget about it.

Ps. Multiple Auroras can effectively kill pretty much any solo ship, so having something bigger doesnt mean you are invincible even from basic ships, especially when you fly on your own.
I'm pretty sure that group of Auroras will kill Idris in like first few days after flying Idris in PU will be possible.

----

If this was a property development for example, the people who invested in it would be rightfully bloody furious by now. I fail to see why people keep defending CIG over it.

Because all the funding they get goes into making this game better and they do not stop when most devs would stop. They going all the way with their ambitious to make games of their and our dreams.
Not all games need to be the same. You want to play safe games, there are plenty of them out there, there not a single one that tries to achieve what SC tries to achieve.

 

[~Cross~]

If this was a property development for example, the people who invested in it would be rightfully bloody furious by now. I fail to see why people keep defending CIG over it.

Because the dream must be realized, and if lordlings ruling over plebs with their 2k-3k ships is the price to pay then so be it.

Sunk cost is a hell of a drug

 

[bigdracula]

There never will be equality, forget about it.

Should be tagline for SC

 

[WaterAstro]

They should make it so you permanently lose your whale ship if you die in it lol.

 

[Pepboy]

Do you see how HUGELY problematic this is though?

At 1.0 launch, there are going to be people in "the biggest and most powerful ships in the game". Day 1. That's going to happen because those people shelled out TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS for them. We're not talking a $15 DLC pack here, we're talking $2000.

How is that fair? If the ship is, as you say, "the biggest and most powerful ship in the game", then that is the very definition of Pay to Win. Except this isn't some shovelware freemium mobile game, this is a huge scale, AAA title which will presumably be priced at full retail price on launch.

Do you not see how appalling that is? If Valve started selling guns for CSGO which were flat out better than any other gun available, guns which you could earn in game or buy for real world cash, there would be an uproar. There would be an uproar even if the guns only cost $10.

How are they going to price that $2000 ship when the full game comes out? If they price it in line with all the other ships in the game then don't you think that's a massive fuck you to the guys who did splash out $2000 for it? If they make it insanely expensive, so that only the wealthiest players in the game will be able to afford it, then we're back to the whole "pay to win" thing again.

People MUST NOT be defending $2000 microtransactions because that's what these are, let's be under no illusions here. They are $2000 microtrasactions for a game which hasn't even been properly released yet and that is absolutely disgraceful.

This simply wouldn't fly in almost any other industry. When you start a project, you budget for it and make something within that budget. If you want to add extra things, you budget for those separately and start working on them, possibly alongside the original project but also after it has been finished. What CIG seem to be doing with SC here is using Kickstarter to raise a load of funds but then just continually adding more and more things to the project, beyond what they initially offered, and so they're now having to charge obscene amounts of in game ships just to keep the project moving.

If this was a property development for example, the people who invested in it would be rightfully bloody furious by now. I fail to see why people keep defending CIG over it.

The argument the devs gave was "it will make the world feel more realistic if a few people have big ships day one".

Of course, the devs could easily accomplish that same goal by giving out a few randomly, or to the earliest backers. (But don't mention this to backers.)

The way it's actually justified is "well it helps development". But does one want to help development of a p2w game with power creep? Did original backers know that big capital ships would be rolled out for sale?

The last argument is usually "they'll stop selling ships after release" -- which has serious issues. 1 - they can still sell new unreleased ships. 2 - they can bundle ships with expansion preorders. 3 - they can choose to keep delaying release and 4 - they can renege and claim development changes,etc etc.

 

[KKRT00]

Should be tagline for SC

Thats true for any multiplayer game with economy though.
As longs as ships are not balanced like character levels in theme park MMOs, and they arent, it doesnt matter really.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

They should make it so you permanently lose your whale ship if you die in it lol.

I notice a lot of the whale bundles have "lifetime insurance."

 

[Foxy the Fox]

?
You can change "supporters" by "informed people".

Nah, the informed are the ones that know that this game will be early access forever.

The supporters will defend this thing.

 

[K.Jack]

So In your world, the only thing that determines the length of time a game takes to make is the amount of money that is thrown at it.

Mind = blown.

You don't like how it sounds, because, I don't want to sound insulting when I say this, you don't know what you are talking about.

The "2k ships" people are blathering about (of which there is one) , are the biggest most powerful ships in the game, but everyone will be able to get them, they won't be locked behind a paywall, they aren't special editions.

A couple of ships do have some cosmetic differences, but I thought us neckbeards as a whole where cool with limited cosmetics?

I mean, I get there are people who actively want the game to fail because they don't like the idea of crowd funding, or they are a bit simple, or the game isn't going to be the kind of thing they want to play etc.

But just making up shit and then getting angry about it like more than a couple of people do on this forum, its silly.

Why does the bolded always get trotted out, every time someone has something negative to express about SC?

Some of you see things as there being 3 views on this game:

1. Blindly optimistic
2. Cautiously optimistic
3. "Hater" who actively wants the game to fail.

Silly, indeed.

 

[Hellshy.]

Because all the funding they get goes into making this game better and they do not stop when most devs would stop. They going all the way with their ambitious to make games of their and our dreams.
Not all games need to be the same. You want to play safe games, there are plenty of them out there, there not a single one that tries to achieve what SC tries to achieve.

Don't you think many would prefer them to stop at some point and release a game and then add after release instead of not stopping? Surely with all the years of development they have enough of an amazing game that entails all that was originally promised ? I think if they did have that we would of seen a release by now.

It is almost as if they are worried about about relying on the sales of the game to finance expansions and updates so they continue to milk backers.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Thats true for any multiplayer game with economy though.
As longs as ships are not balanced like character levels in theme park MMOs, and they arent, it doesnt matter really.

Those games offer the majority of the content in the PVP-disabled environment: WoW, Guild Wars, Minecraft, Runescape, GTA, Warframe, Dark Souls etc. You can do quests, build stuff, explore, do PVE content all without being attacked by other players. So other players' gear/experience matters only if you choose things like WvW in GW2, Wild in Runescape, Dark Zones in Division etc.

If miners/truckers/explorers/fetchers can be assaulted with a combat-orientated ship, then you will have a lot of griefers and generally a survival-orientated gameplay. I can't think of any survival game which has a long-term MMO economy: H1Z1, Ark, Rust, DayZ all had short-term item gains such as finding a good weapon for the temporary session. And most popular survival games offer no microtransaction items, there are map-wide drops in H1Z1, but they work more like the paid server-event.

This is why the balance of paid items in SC is such a big puzzle for me. Feel free to show an open PVP game with the item/level progression like in economy based games (WoW, Runescape, Guild Wars, PoE etc.).

I guess maybe Wildstar has more PVP enabled zones than other MMORPG games, but that game is garbage and nobody plays it.

 

[Haly]

Those games offer the majority of the content in the PVP-disabled environment: WoW, Guild Wars, Minecraft, Runescape, GTA, Warframe, Dark Souls etc. You can do quests, build stuff, explore, do PVE content all without being attacked by other players. So other players' gear/experience matters only if you choose things like WvW in GW2, Wild in Runescape, Dark Zones in Division etc.

If miners/truckers/explorers/fetchers can be assaulted with a combat-orientated ship, then you will have a lot of griefers and generally a survival-orientated gameplay. I can't think of any survival game which has a long-term MMO economy: H1Z1, Ark, Rust, DayZ all had short-term item gains such as finding a good weapon for the temporary session. And most popular survival games offer no microtransaction items, there are map-wide drops in H1Z1, but they work more like the paid server-event.

This is why the balance of paid items in SC is such a big puzzle for me. Feel free to show an open PVP game with the item/level progression like in economy based games (WoW, Runescape, Guild Wars, PoE etc.).

I guess maybe Wildstar has more PVP enabled zones than other MMORPG games, but that game is garbage and nobody plays it.

EVE mate.

 

[KKRT00]

Those games offer the majority of the content in the PVP-disabled environment: WoW, Guild Wars, Minecraft, Runescape, GTA, Warframe, Dark Souls etc. You can do quests, build stuff, explore, do PVE content all without being attacked by other players. So other players' gear/experience matters only if you choose things like WvW in GW2, Wild in Runescape, Dark Zones in Division etc.

If miners/truckers/explorers/fetchers can be assaulted with a combat-orientated ship, then you will have a lot of griefers and generally a survival-orientated gameplay. I can't think of any survival game which has a long-term MMO economy: H1Z1, Ark, Rust, DayZ all had short-term item gains such as finding a good weapon for the temporary session. And most popular survival games offer no microtransaction items, there are map-wide drops in H1Z1, but they work more like the paid server-event.

This is why the balance of paid items in SC is such a big puzzle for me. Feel free to show an open PVP game with the item/level progression like in economy based games (WoW, Runescape, Guild Wars, PoE etc.).

I guess maybe Wildstar has more PVP enabled zones than other MMORPG games, but that game is garbage and nobody plays it.

Nice, you mentioned theme park MMOs and not MMOs and completely ignored all sandbox MMOs like Ultime Online, Albion Online or EVE Online.
Check EVE and get back to me or not.

Sorry, but I know better as i played EVE for 4 years and know that having ISK means nothing, having character skilled for 5 years means nothing if you do not know how to play or are overwhelmed by numbers.

And my post was, if you can kill Idris with 5-8 Auroras, then you do not have P2W, not matter how much progression you will skip.
You cannot kill 80 lvl character in Lineage 2/WoW with 5-10x level 10 characters, its not possible, in SC/EVE/Albion you can and thats the difference between those games and why they arent P2W and having more stuff do not matter in the end in terms power and balance.

 

[bounchfx]

Because all the funding they get goes into making this game better and they do not stop when most devs would stop. They going all the way with their ambitious to make games of their and our dreams.
Not all games need to be the same. You want to play safe games, there are plenty of them out there, there not a single one that tries to achieve what SC tries to achieve.

they suckered you in, man

there's no really good reason why they couldn't have simply made the game in the original kickstarter, as close as they could, in the timeframe they could, and then have expanded on it and given updates over time, like a LOT of games do these days. and then piggy back off that and make a sequel closer to their current ambitions. it would give people a lot more confidence in the studio and believing they could pull it off. Instead they choose to charge people an absolutely cringe-worthy amount of money that imo is nothing but disrespectful to their audience and takes advantage of their whales/hardcore fans. A 100$ ship would have been insane, anything above that? comical and anti-consumer at this point in the game's 'life'. It would have also been cheaper for everyone involved if they finished their initial vision with the budget they said they required, and then went on to expand it for free as I just mentioned. It's not farfetched whatsoever and it would have probably led to a lot more people being positive about the game instead of considering it a long running joke to watch people that still defend it

like many, I really, really want the game to be good, and come out, and be what they promised in the kickstarter. I put my own money into it. But I'm not so disillusioned to still smile and nod at what they do years after they said the product would be complete

 

[Pepboy]

?
You can change "supporters" by "informed people".

In part because backers get rewards (a new gladius ship + special models) when they get referrals, it incentivizes backers to get more people enrolled. So that's one half.

But its also just to warn people of the dangers of this game. Providing balance and a variety of perspectives to help uninformed make a risky decision. You can see examples of this on this very page where people didn't know the game crashed mid demo.

Yet ultimately, the backers are quick to attack (personal insults/ad hominem) anyone offering even mild critique or words of warning. If people know the risks and want to back, that's great. But try mentioning these risks just gets endless "you know nothing" posts.

Another element I forgot about -- many backers actually seem to have multiple keys (and multiple ships). Some of these have increased a LOT in value, with some people making tens of thousands of dollars by flipping ships:

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/exvaaa/i-sold-my-star-citizen-fleet-to-finance-a-new-car

So now people bought more ships in hopes the grey market value increases.


[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/
[/url]

This has all the signs of a speculative market bubble.. The only way for the value to increase is convincing new people that they're worth purchasing for an even higher price -- the true value of the asset is obscured or unclear. But it definitely creates financial incentives to paint SC development in the most positive light.

 

[Spuck-uk]

?
You can change "supporters" by "informed people".

You could change it to 'sunk cost fallacy' and it works better.

 

[KKRT00]

they suckered you in, man

there's no really good reason why they couldn't have simply made the game in the original kickstarter, as close as they could, in the timeframe they could, and then have expanded on it and given updates over time, like a LOT of games do these days

And i stopped reading here, sorry.
They could not, the problem is that making some codebase and expanding it with new features, especially features that drastically changes already created content/mechanics is way, way harder than making it from the ground up.

Thats why they still try to make the base codebase right and in expandable way.

 

[Raticus79]

This has all the signs of a speculative market bubble.. The only way for the value to increase is convincing new people that they're worth purchasing for an even higher price -- the true value of the asset is obscured or unclear. But it definitely creates financial incentives to paint SC development in the most positive light.

There's a reason that article is a year old and was already in past tense at that point. Grey market hasn't been viable in that way for a while.

 

[Pepboy]

There's a reason that article is a year old and was already in past tense at that point. Grey market hasn't been viable in that way for a while.

True they shut down that one channel but there are still people making profit on reddit and other sites by selling ships and bundles, no?

 

[Raticus79]

True they shut down that one channel but there are still people making profit on reddit and other sites by selling ships and bundles, no?

Early on, LTI was seen as a scarce thing. Cross-chassis upgrades came into play and suddenly that was no longer a problem.

Derek Smart talked about how the grey market was drying up and that was to be taken as a sign of impending doom.

 

[eyeball_kid]

In part because backers get rewards (a new gladius ship + special models) when they get referrals, it incentivizes backers to get more people enrolled.

Wait, what? That's a straight-up pyramid scheme.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

Do you have any knowledge of game tech to even remotely explain how it's not?

 

[Spuck-uk]

Wait, what? That's a straight-up pyramid scheme.

Yup

 

[RedSwirl]

Summary?

I saw one little hint of this presentation somewhere and part of me just appreciates the new tech this game is trying to push.

 

[Instro]

Wait, what? That's a straight-up pyramid scheme.

Multi-level marketing

 

[Trace]

Wait, what? That's a straight-up pyramid scheme.

Shit my school gives me $500 if I refer people to them and they enroll.

I must be part of a pyramid scheme too.

 

[~Cross~]

Most MMOs cap out your referral rewards at like 5 people. SC is revolutionary in capping it out at 2017.

 

[Breads]

I'm watching through now, I'm loving the face capture stuff. I don't know how some of you can be so curmudgeon about some of the things shown off.

I want to play Star Citizen.

I don't feel any closer to doing that.

 

[DJwest]

Still waiting for Squadron 42 news. Not even interested in Star Citizen.

 

[WalTech]

Still waiting for Squadron 42 news. Not even interested in Star Citizen.

It's gonna be a while. Hope you like MoCap!

 

[Fafalada]

This would mean they are effectively monetizing game development itself...

This is already a fact, and isn't exactly up for debate, regardless of how you view the game. Whether they're monetizing well enough to support the organization they built, is the real critical question.

Well, in a lot of ways, it very clearly is.

It needs to become a game first for that to hold.

 

[mercenar1e]

The supporters will tell ya this game is doing bigger things than GTA..

im not a supporter of Chris Roberts and the way he manages projects but they're doing things no other game is.