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The Hugo Awards 2016 - Revisiting "Ethics in SF Awards"
- Thread starter whatsinaname
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The problem with the Hugos has always been they've been more a measure of devoted fandoms than actual quality, and now it's just turned into an ideological battleground to boot. They can try and reduce the gaming options but at this point it's probably a good thing that this whole mess has pointed out how cruddy the process is.
I am a huge Stephenson fan and his last few books have been.... Eh.
I liked Anathem though.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
It's not like the Hugos have all that much relevancy nowadays anyway.
Messofanego
Banned
So they really do use the same tactics as gamergate with that shielding crap. Gamergate was constantly worried as their hate campaign went on about trying to have a presentable image to the public so they toned down the worst parts and it sounds like the same here. It's a dilemma cause the reputable authors should be appreciated but there's a stank.
There's entitled arseholes in every walk of life, mate.
Hot Coldman
Banned
There's a Gamergate for every traditionally male-dominated category of art and culture. Whether it's happened yet or not is just a matter of time.
What's the point of this? They "win" this battle then think that suddenly all social progression will reverse?
Whatever, if a bunch of fedora neckbeard forever alone losers need the (lol) hugo awards to distract from their lonely and angry lives let them have it. Make a new awards, call it the Mary Shelleys and watch their awards fall into the grave like their sad lives.
Whatever, if a bunch of fedora neckbeard forever alone losers need the (lol) hugo awards to distract from their lonely and angry lives let them have it. Make a new awards, call it the Mary Shelleys and watch their awards fall into the grave like their sad lives.
A lot of the same people are involved.
Sci fi isnt getting dumber. There are more star wars space opera type books since that and fantasy took off, but you can still find good 'hard sci fi' and soeculative fiction.
Palette Swap
Member
At least, things should be better next year, but it's a shame these assholes are earmarking some legitimate and valuable works as "theirs". GRRM is on point as usual.
I'm bracing for the day this happens in comics. I'm genuinely surprised it hasn't yet.
Well, I see stuff like Altered Carcon, Old Mans War, Leviathan etc constantly in any sf discussion and get nostalgic. We lost Ian M. Banks recently and now I think there are only a few great SF authors left.
I've enjoyed some newer stuff like Embassytown and Quantum Thief but I usually have to go back 20 years to find stuff that doesn't feel completely derivative.
Of course, this is just my own observation. I've long wished more sf would tackle lgbt themes and gender issues, so if its true than thats great. I just haven't seen it myself.
The My Little Pony thing is the most amusing to me.
Did they ever watched ANY My Little Pony episode ? It is not like Arthur C Clark or something complex ... it is made easy to understand to KIDS .... so HOW they missed the fucking point of the entire cartoon ?
It has ... it just don't have a name yet because they are still called "regular comic book nerds" ....but just change the race or gender of any comic character and they will drive in thousands, even if the change makes perfect sense =P
Did they ever watched ANY My Little Pony episode ? It is not like Arthur C Clark or something complex ... it is made easy to understand to KIDS .... so HOW they missed the fucking point of the entire cartoon ?
It has ... it just don't have a name yet because they are still called "regular comic book nerds" ....but just change the race or gender of any comic character and they will drive in thousands, even if the change makes perfect sense =P
Now I comb through amazon damn near every day. Are they mad that the amount of scifi/fantasy books that star white straight males has gone down from 99.2% to 98.5%?
They are mad that Sci Fi these days talks about SJW stuff like equality, minorities and how we as a society can live long and prosper despite our diferences without any prejudice.
You know like Arthur C Clark, Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov ... all those authors these days
SigmasonicX
Member
If you view Social Justice Warriors as communists, then an episode where the villain uses the trappings of Marxism can somehow be interpreted as anti-SJW. Even though the thing presented as a heroic counterpoint to the villain's view is that accepting people's differences leads to a better society, which is completely against what the Puppies are for.
Although it's also likely that this is one of the "poison pills" where they tried to come up with some sci-fi / fantasy show with a majority female cast to show that they aren't really anti-women, and could only come up with MLP.
SigmasonicX
Member
It's a "black friend" thing. By saying they're a fan of this show about female characters both going on adventures and doing girly stuff, they can say that they aren't really sexist when they say sexist things. They latch onto this show in particular because it has name recognition and a large enough fanbase that they can operate without enough of a percentage of the fans actively trying to stamp them out. The fanbase is also large enough that you can exclusively follow fan material without watching the show at all, like with Touhou, so you have many of these guys who are completely insulated from the show itself.
Bizarrely enough, the same thing appears to be happening to Steven Universe, with hardcore conservatives who insist that Ruby and Sapphire aren't a couple and such, despite the blatant "SJW" stuff in the show.
EDIT: Though there is the third factor of people (particularly younger ones) who are legitimately fans of the show but can't reconcile it with their views and upbringing, resulting in odd things. David Willis of Shortpacked / Dumbing of Age brought this up in relation to young Christian fans who frequently would draw their favorite characters begging for forgiveness from Jesus, particularly Sonic characters.
UnemployedVillain
Member
It's why I've always contended that GG isn't unique to gaming, it's simply a much bigger issue in the context of gaming
It's arguably an extension of the culture wars that dominate modern American politics.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
It's not something I ever really understood.
This one makes zero sense.
I'm still baffled you can be a SF fan and hate the very concept on which SF is built - imaginating a different, better world.
So, damage to injury, Scalzi loses a perfectly good chance to get nominated for The End Of All Things.
Okay, it's not as good as Redshirts or Last Colony, but damn it was good.
I honestly can't.
Heinlein was writing about invaders, clarke about culture clash and asimov about slavery - all in their metaphors, obviously - at the very heyday of SF.
Racism is a fundamental theme of both fantasy and sci-fi, as obvious. The most common moral in the genre is "Uh, not so different after all \ perhaps we can live in peace".
Depending on what you read. Sure, Corey is 'dumber', but Scalzi or Liu aren't.
So, damage to injury, Scalzi loses a perfectly good chance to get nominated for The End Of All Things.
Okay, it's not as good as Redshirts or Last Colony, but damn it was good.
I honestly can't.
Heinlein was writing about invaders, clarke about culture clash and asimov about slavery - all in their metaphors, obviously - at the very heyday of SF.
Racism is a fundamental theme of both fantasy and sci-fi, as obvious. The most common moral in the genre is "Uh, not so different after all \ perhaps we can live in peace".
Depending on what you read. Sure, Corey is 'dumber', but Scalzi or Liu aren't.
Among other things. They're mad that Tananarive Due and N.K. Jemsin are writing books at all, in the case of the Rabid Puppies, because they're fundamentally racist assholes. Theodore Beale, one of the three originators of all this nonsense, is the same author that managed an event unique in science fiction, which is to get himself kicked out of the SFWA for blatant racism.
They're mad that non-white, non-male, non-straight authors are finally finding a place in science-fiction. All the rest is fluff and cover for racism and sexism, which is pretty easy to show because the claims they've made for why they're doing this have no basis in reality. Both in terms of their imagined golden past of science fiction and in terms of who's usually selected for Hugos.
Most of the whining of the Sad Puppies is about neither Correia or Torgerson getting the appreciation they think they're due based on sales, because, as often happenes, they've mistaken what sells well for what is actually good. Occult stuff and Military sci-fi have always sold well, even when it was garbage, because people who like those genres tend to read a lot of books, and have specific tastes, and you can't be too picky when all you'll read is books with lots of action and guns.
/r/werthaminaction
Basically the comic book KiA which is a GG hub. The head mod over there is an absolute delight.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Guys can we form a NeoGAF nomination slate for whenever I get off my arse and start writing again?
A Hugo award would be pretty cool for the shelf.
A Hugo award would be pretty cool for the shelf.
Contrary to my earlier post in the reading thread, it seems like the rabids were more successful than I initially thought. Turns out they included poison pills this year--works by mainstream or generally successful authors who might well have been nominated regardless, including at least one person whose request not to be included in the slate was ignored. VD saw that he and his puppies last year were met with a newspaper smack, and decided the best thing to do was include real stuff this time so that any smack would also hit innocent people and legit nominees. It's a sort of hostage-taking.
Last year the strategy most people settled on was to vote No Award over everything that was in a slate, and that strategy was wildly successful. This year, I think the difference in the rabids's slating strategy will necessitate a difference in voting strategy, namely separating the viable stuff from the trolling and/or garbage, and putting only the latter below No Award. It'll take a bit more work and care, but should be doable (and is made easier by a lot of the works being published by VD's publishing house, Castalia--these should be no-brainers for No Award). In any case, this should be the last year where this is necessary, so no biggie.
A quick look at the nominees and thoughts off the top of my head:
Best Novel:
Jim Butcher was a puppy favorite last year, and is certainly only on the list because of them. Everything else should be fine. (He's also not a terrible writer or terrible person, so while I'd be shocked if this won I wouldn't be surprised or bothered at all if it's above No Award.)
Best Novella:
Everything here is fine. Many of these would've been nominated regardless. Sanderson has won in this category before; Reynolds requested not to be included in the slate and was ignored by VD.
Best Novelette:
"Flashpoint Titan" is published by Castalia, VD's publishing house. Ditto "What Price Humanity." These will presumably be No Awarded, everything else appears fine.
Best Short Story:
"If You Were an Award, My Love" is both trolling and garbage. Chuck Tingle is a joke self-published writer and his Space Raptor thing is nominated for trolling reasons. "Seven Kill Tiger" is published by Castalia. I expect these will all be No Awarded. Thomas Mays withdrew his nomination, and the last story is unobjectionable if not very interesting. Not sure if another story will be added since Mays withdrew. If not I wouldn't be shocked to see No Award here.
Best Related Work:
Here's where they really went all-out. Almost all of it is published by Castalia, including VD's garbage book about SJWs being mean to him, some trash whining about safe spaces, and randomly enough something about Gene Wolfe. (The remaining, non-Castalia nominee is a piece by the daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradley, who was the victim of repeated sexual abuse as a child at the hands of her parents. This is a tragic story, and was the subject of a lot of discussion in the sff community the last year or two. Unfortunately, this particular piece is clearly only on the list because it all leads up to explaining that she was abused because her parents were gay and wanted her to be gay, that this is what the gay lifestyle leads to, and this is why gay marriage must be stopped. I'm not going to attack her for beliefs she came to after an incredibly difficult and painful early life. I'm also not going to endorse this.) I expect No Award in this category.
Best Graphic Story / Best Dramatic Presentation:
This all appears to be mainstream stuff, and these aren't considered major categories. Don't expect No Awards here. Like, nobody's going to get mad that The Martian is nominated.
Best Editor (short & long):
Obviously VD nominated himself again. Obviously he's getting No Awarded again. Otherwise don't see any obvious problems here. The other rabid picks here are Minz and Weisskopf, chosen because they're Baen editors. They're also, like, pretty unobjectionable? I don't think they win, but I also don't expect they get No Awarded.
Best Artist:
I don't fuckin know.
Best Semiprozine:
These are all perfectly fine semiprozines. I've submitted work to all of them and been published in at least one. I don't expect No Award above anyone here.
Best Fanzine:
One of these is Castalia yet again. Superversive SF is a site worried about SJWs and political correctness, zero points for guessing why VD liked it. I expect these to get No Awarded. The other three are normal fansites.
Best Fancast:
8-4 and Cane & Rinse are video game podcasts. HelloGreedo is a Star Wars Youtube channel. Rageaholic is an angry video game thing who occasionally complains about Anita Sarkeesian and worries about journalistic ethics. Tales to Terrify is a horror fiction audiocast. Rageaholic might get No Awarded, unless I'm missing something then the category is probably otherwise fine.
Best Fan Writer / Fan Artist:
See Best Artist.
Whew. On the whole, I see one or two categories that probably go No Award--Related Work and Short Story. Which would be a major improvement over last year. Looking forward to the rules change going through.
Last year the strategy most people settled on was to vote No Award over everything that was in a slate, and that strategy was wildly successful. This year, I think the difference in the rabids's slating strategy will necessitate a difference in voting strategy, namely separating the viable stuff from the trolling and/or garbage, and putting only the latter below No Award. It'll take a bit more work and care, but should be doable (and is made easier by a lot of the works being published by VD's publishing house, Castalia--these should be no-brainers for No Award). In any case, this should be the last year where this is necessary, so no biggie.
A quick look at the nominees and thoughts off the top of my head:
Best Novel:
Jim Butcher was a puppy favorite last year, and is certainly only on the list because of them. Everything else should be fine. (He's also not a terrible writer or terrible person, so while I'd be shocked if this won I wouldn't be surprised or bothered at all if it's above No Award.)
Best Novella:
Everything here is fine. Many of these would've been nominated regardless. Sanderson has won in this category before; Reynolds requested not to be included in the slate and was ignored by VD.
Best Novelette:
"Flashpoint Titan" is published by Castalia, VD's publishing house. Ditto "What Price Humanity." These will presumably be No Awarded, everything else appears fine.
Best Short Story:
"If You Were an Award, My Love" is both trolling and garbage. Chuck Tingle is a joke self-published writer and his Space Raptor thing is nominated for trolling reasons. "Seven Kill Tiger" is published by Castalia. I expect these will all be No Awarded. Thomas Mays withdrew his nomination, and the last story is unobjectionable if not very interesting. Not sure if another story will be added since Mays withdrew. If not I wouldn't be shocked to see No Award here.
Best Related Work:
Here's where they really went all-out. Almost all of it is published by Castalia, including VD's garbage book about SJWs being mean to him, some trash whining about safe spaces, and randomly enough something about Gene Wolfe. (The remaining, non-Castalia nominee is a piece by the daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradley, who was the victim of repeated sexual abuse as a child at the hands of her parents. This is a tragic story, and was the subject of a lot of discussion in the sff community the last year or two. Unfortunately, this particular piece is clearly only on the list because it all leads up to explaining that she was abused because her parents were gay and wanted her to be gay, that this is what the gay lifestyle leads to, and this is why gay marriage must be stopped. I'm not going to attack her for beliefs she came to after an incredibly difficult and painful early life. I'm also not going to endorse this.) I expect No Award in this category.
Best Graphic Story / Best Dramatic Presentation:
This all appears to be mainstream stuff, and these aren't considered major categories. Don't expect No Awards here. Like, nobody's going to get mad that The Martian is nominated.
Best Editor (short & long):
Obviously VD nominated himself again. Obviously he's getting No Awarded again. Otherwise don't see any obvious problems here. The other rabid picks here are Minz and Weisskopf, chosen because they're Baen editors. They're also, like, pretty unobjectionable? I don't think they win, but I also don't expect they get No Awarded.
Best Artist:
I don't fuckin know.
Best Semiprozine:
These are all perfectly fine semiprozines. I've submitted work to all of them and been published in at least one. I don't expect No Award above anyone here.
Best Fanzine:
One of these is Castalia yet again. Superversive SF is a site worried about SJWs and political correctness, zero points for guessing why VD liked it. I expect these to get No Awarded. The other three are normal fansites.
Best Fancast:
8-4 and Cane & Rinse are video game podcasts. HelloGreedo is a Star Wars Youtube channel. Rageaholic is an angry video game thing who occasionally complains about Anita Sarkeesian and worries about journalistic ethics. Tales to Terrify is a horror fiction audiocast. Rageaholic might get No Awarded, unless I'm missing something then the category is probably otherwise fine.
Best Fan Writer / Fan Artist:
See Best Artist.
Whew. On the whole, I see one or two categories that probably go No Award--Related Work and Short Story. Which would be a major improvement over last year. Looking forward to the rules change going through.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Were any of the nominations you discuss here examples of works that they are ideologically opposed to? I mean, in their heads they're voting for works that deserve it, right? So it wouldn't be surprising that some portion of the stuff they nominate would actually be quite good and would be deserving of a nomination regardless of their involvement, not necessarily because they're trying to trick people into voting for something just to claim that their nominations won?
Correct. This is in fact the stated goal of the rabid puppies.
You have to remember that these people are basically children.
You're thinking of the sad puppies. The rabids are explicitly out to wreck shit. Last year VD pretty much just listed shit he had published or was an ideological fan of. This year he interspersed that with some random trolling and some things that were likely to get on the ballot anyway.
I don't think it's about tricking people to vote for something so they can claim their nominees won. I think it's about trying to force the people who No Awarded them last year to either No Award legit nominations or find a new strategy.
That's refreshingly honest of them at least.
Where do the Rapid Puppies "live"? Like if I wanted to spend an hour or two reading them in their own words, where would I go? Is there a KiA for Rabid Puppies?
JesseEwiak
Member
The problem for comics is that all the "SJW's" took over in the late 90's and early 00's before the Internet could do anything about it. Also, in general, comics have always been more open to weirdness and messages than say, video games.
I'm not saying you don't have people whining about Thor being a girl or whatever, it's just that editors and publishers already realize they can't sell books to 45 year old comic book guys forever.
I actually want to commend the Sad Puppies this time around - they didn't publish a specific slate this year. They simply put forward a big list of recommendations like many people did for prior Hugo's, but there were more nominees than slots for each category unlike the Rabid Puppies, so there was no chance of 'slate' voting.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/
Also, http://monsterhunternation.com
Best place is probably the source. Google "Vox Day" and read some of his blog.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Didn't it already sorta happen? I remember a whole lot of knashing of teeth when that really famous lady comic book author first started criticising the women in refrigerators trope
KonradLaw
Member
Well..the problem is..people are the ones who vote it in. And everybody else was doing their own campaigns before. Correia just did it more successfully. So it's hard to think up how one could stop this nonsense from happening without radically changing how Hugo works. Maybe some sort of commitee Oscars-like would be necessary. Or maybe you could convince the Sad Puppies to make their own separate award show. They have enough people to make them work.
Of course, then there's a fact that Sad Puppies is just a bit misguided campaign that got out of hand, but most of it';s people, including Correia are pretty reasonable. Meanwhile Rabbid Puppies is run by somebody who's absolutely batshit insane with hate. Whatever you do to ease up Sad Puppies likely wont have any effect on the biggest asshole on in genre fiction that Vox Day is.
EDIT: I've visited Correia blog and he's not participating with Sad Puppies this year? I'm not sure if it's a good thing (probably is for him as an author) or a bad one (as he was the voice of reason for most extreme stuff there). For now it seems it's good as they've changed their stance towards creating simple lists, like everyone else. Seems this year it's just Rabbid Puppies that are running wild. Which kind of removes any doubt about which side to support (hint: not Vox one)
Also since it's relevant to this thread, I really liked that Fifth Season book. It's very clearly the first in a series (trilogy planned, I think), and it's a little frustrating how conspicuous it is about leading into the next book, especially toward the end, but it stands pretty well on its own. The book is intensely racial but not in the ways I was expecting it to be. Thoughtful and cool book.
Word, thanks.
EDIT wowowow. are we sure this isn't some elaborate performance art farcical character?
Word, thanks.
EDIT wowowow. are we sure this isn't some elaborate performance art farcical character?
You may not believe Donald Trump. But unlike all the other candidates, he is saying precisely the right things on immigration, on foreign policy, on war, on free trade, and on the existence of the American national interest. [...] How can you not support the man at this point?
SolicitorPirate
Member
Well, Mark does like Destiny a whole lot...
Yup I clicked on the link n now I'm sad...
Messofanego
Banned
Considering the amount of time trolls dedicate to the internet, this is not surprising when they're just trying to wind people up.
Just to give at least one source for the above, since VD varies on how much and precisely what he's willing to say about his motivations at any given point:
http://www.wired.com/2015/08/won-science-fictions-hugo-awards-matters/
Hence why they are trying to get stuff no awarded - if the Hugos have everything / many items get "No Award" multiple times in a row - it destroys the entire award. Vox is counting on people getting upset and using No Award as a protest vote against his slate even if they are potentially deserving candidates (Butcher, Stephenson, Reynolds), or get those authors to withdraw their works out of protest.
Thus leading to either No Award or the people he doesn't want getting the awards withdrawing their works and thus..not getting an award.
whatsinaname
Member
So I can't seem to find this info anywhere. What revised rules are going into effect in 2017 to combat this?
SigmasonicX
Member
The big change is that currently, you can vote for any number of things in each category, which allows for everyone to vote for a single slate, which is how we got where we are now.
Next year, you can still vote for any number of things in a category, but you have to divide a single vote among them all evenly. So if you vote for one thing, that gets 1 vote. If you vote for two things, each gets 1/2 vote. If you vote for three things, each gets 1/3 vote, etc. This still allows for a large group to rally under a single work in a category, but they can't flood a category with works of their choice as easily.
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