Support NeoGAF

[SaucyJack]

Are people forgetting that the impact of this lower spec machine is not just on day one. If they go down this route support for this is locked in for the next 6 or 7 years. With the One/One X they can discontinue that a couple of years down the road when we’re fully on next gen. They can’t do that with Lockhart.

I just don’t get the strategy here. Marketing wise they’ll need to talk out both sides of their mouth at the same time to sell XSX and XSS. They'll screw up their own pitch and hamstring their “most powerful console on the universe”.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

4TF?

 

[Psykodad]

That their loss would be more than what a BOM sheet says.

Ok?
I don't think it'll ultimately matter for the retail pricing.
They will stay very competitive with MS.

 

[Nikana]

Ok?
I don't think it'll ultimately matter for the retail pricing.
They will stay very competitive with MS.

You don't think the BOM matters in the retail pricing of a console? Ok.

 

[gamechanger87]

No. Whatever how you spin this. The amount of useable ram is the first thing developers check when they design each levels (what's visible by the player at any moment, that can't be streamed, even on PS5): How many ennemies in the room ? How big the level ? How many sound effects ? How many animations ? How many AI systems ? etc. 7.5GB for the lowest denominator is the worst news for multiplats.

Honestly I can't believe this is true. I hope it's not true as I want ambitious mulitplatform games. Like Monster Hunter world 2 will have to be designed for a 7.5GB machine when MHW 1 was designed for 5GB systems. If true those multiplats won't feel next gen.

But MS already said they don't believe in generations. If this leak is true they were serious. The same games, running up-resed with higher fps from XB1 to Lockhart to XSX. This is their vision for next gen ?

Sound, animations, AI? Those aren't RAM intensive. You know what is RAM intensive? Graphics/textures.

RAM is used as a frame buffer. If you aren't pushing 4k, you don't need as much RAM because what is getting shown on screen does not need as much space. At its simplest form, a 1080p frame requires 1/4 of the pixels as 4k.

Xbox One X needed 6TF and its Ram because it was targeting 4k. This console ain't.

MHW was built around an HDD and the need to keep stuff in RAM because it couldnt come off the HDD fast enough. That won't be a problem this generation.

Lockhart with 7.5 GB versus Series X/PS5 at 13.5 GB should not be an issue when you consider how different the RAM needs are for the targeted resolutions. A 2080TI comes with only 11GB of Ram.

GAMEPLAY DESIGN WILL NOT BE LIMITED BY THE RAM OR TF!

 

[Psykodad]

You don't think the BOM matters in the retail pricing of a console? Ok.

Poor wording on my part and you know it.

If production cost is $450-$480, they will sell it at $399 if they deem it necessary.
$50 spent on PS+ basically covers the difference.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I can see every Xbox Series X title being 4K 120fps in this case then. Games will be made for lockheart. Series X extra power will only be used for 4K and 120fps.

 

[Nikana]

BOM count or doesn't count for everything ( even though i've read somewhere that in BOM is already included taxes and shipping ) but all we know that XSX is up to 50-70$ more expensive than PS5.

BOM including landed prices is different depending on who and where you do business. (As well as what type of product)COGS Is sometimes better to look at. But each will give you an idea of where you're looking.

Receipts on the BOM of XSX being higher? Haven't seen that.

 

[Nikana]

Poor wording on my part and you know it.

If production cost is $450-$480, they will sell it at $399 if they deem it necessary.
$50 spent on PS+ basically covers the difference.

I'll take that bet. With a BOM of $450-$480 it's not reaching $399.

 

[cryptoadam]

So MS has created a docked and portable mode with their 2 systems LOL.

Always copying Nintendo I see

 

[Psykodad]

I'll take that bet. With a BOM of $450-$480 it's not reaching $399.

I said: IF they deem it necessary.


So what bet is there?

 

[Nikana]

I said: IF they deem it necessary.


So what bet is there?

You tell me what's necessary. Under any circumstance I don't see a $399 ps5. Xsx can be $350, $399 $449. Doesn't matter.

 

[baphomet]

Minimum $499 for the Series X then.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

4TF?

4TF is a bit of a joke but it hints that they have had to aggressively cut component costs to hit a low price point and thus market disruption.

 

[Mistershine.]

Yes, but this time the loss would only be ~$80 at worst, possibly even less.

And we all know they make profit off software.

We also don't even know the production cost for XSX, could very well be similar.

It's not just the cost of parts, you have to add manufacturing, packaging, shipping, and retail markup. Your $80 could easily turn into $150.

 

[Psykodad]

You tell me what's necessary. Under any circumstance I don't see a $399 ps5. Xsx can be $350, $399 $449. Doesn't matter.

There is nothing to tell you.
Ever since the reveal, I've been saying $499 for the disc version, $399 for digital.

I haven't said anything else. Just what I can see Sony possibly doing if they decide to stay competitive if the $199 Lockhart/$399 XSX speculation is true.

So how do you come up with such a bet?

 

[GiJoint]

Sticking to the Series X, ain’t getting the gimp.

 

[pasterpl]

Yea, I agree. Xbox/PS want to lock you into their ecosystem. Xbox's BC strategy is to keep who they currently have, and bring back who they lost. Budget console is to attract the casuals, the Nintendo Wii buyers. At $199 that can be an impulse buy. I'd imagine IF PS were to introduce a BC strategy, beyond PS4, they likely have the same goals as Xbox. I just wonder what PS' streaming strategy would be, cause trust me they have one or are working MAD crazy on one LOL

The only thing that has me worried about Cloud gaming is the current state of our internet infrastructure and the general consumers willingness to buy into it. Lets not forget that Stadia is a thing. They had a HUGE media push, they spend a ton of money on marketing. They basically removed the barrier of price; there's a paid version, there's a monthly paid version, there's even a free version. Yet it still hasn't caught on, at least to this point. Which makes me wonder if the general public is really all that interested in video games.

stadia was missing the most important bit at launch - games, it is impossible to draw gamers to gaming platform without games

 

[Psykodad]

It's not just the cost of parts, you have to add manufacturing, packaging, shipping, and retail markup. Your $80 could easily turn into $150.

Same goes for XSX, which we know nothing about.

 

[Mistershine.]

Same goes for XSX, which we know nothing about.

What does the XSX have to do with it? You said the PS5 could sell at 399 for an $80 loss and I pointed out that it would likely be a bigger loss. The BOM for both is likely to be very similar with the better gpu in the XSX being offset by the tempest audio and i/o system.

 

[Nikana]

There is nothing to tell you.
Ever since the reveal, I've been saying $499 for the disc version, $399 for digital.

I haven't said anything else. Just what I can see Sony possibly doing if they decide to stay competitive if the $199 Lockhart/$399 XSX speculation is true.

So how do you come up with such a bet?

So you won't. All you had to say.

 

[iJudged]

Not necessarily. Remember that XSX has 175 GB more than PS5 SSD.

yes but cheaper drive

 

[itsjustJEFF]

stadia was missing the most important bit at launch - games, it is impossible to draw gamers to gaming platform without games

I don't necessarily agree with you 100%. It lacked games for gamers. Most of the games it launched with had already been played by gamers. There's a good chance that the general public had not played most of those games, I think that's who Stadia was targeting, the casuals. Stadia didn't lack games, it lacked games we wanted to play. At last check, Stadia launched with 22 games. The PS4 launched with 21, as far as I can see and Xbox One also launched with a similar amount.

 

[Leyasu]

I know what everyone is worried about. Extreme sony fans from neogaf.com tell me that having a low end system being a mandatory starting point for an entire generation will hamper everything.

And if they say every game is not easily scalable, it must be right.

Lets flip this..

Two wrongs don't make a right

 

[Psykodad]

So you won't. All you had to say.

There's nothing to bet about.

What does the XSX have to do with it? You said the PS5 could sell at 399 for an $80 loss and I pointed out that it would likely be a bigger loss. The BOM for both is likely to be very similar with the better gpu in the XSX being offset by the tempest audio and i/o system.

Context, kiddo.

In case the speculated prices for Lockhart and XSX would be true ($199/$399) and Sony decides to keep on par with pricing.

 

[Craig of War]

If it is really $199 than it is day 1 for me it will be my casual living room game machine wile my PC will be for the hardcore ultra 4k

 

[oldergamer]

This is just another case of "armchair" developers saying something akin to "Lazy developers". The concern should be around finding games you can play, finding value in what you pay for, not this other bull.

 

[Insane Metal]

4TF?

But hey according to some it might match or even outperform the PS5!

 

[jimbojim]

BOM including landed prices is different depending on who and where you do business. (As well as what type of product)COGS Is sometimes better to look at. But each will give you an idea of where you're looking.

Receipts on the BOM of XSX being higher? Haven't seen that.

Why you think XSX wouldn't be more expensive? It has moderately stronger GPU, (CPU, well i dunno. In both are practically the same ) and more expensive RAM chips and APU is reportedly bigger than in PS5

Anyway here, Bloomberg's estimate for PS5 and Zhuge's for XSX

Bloomberg: PlayStation 5 manufacturing costs sit at around $450

Sony's next-gen PlayStation 5 costs $450 to make, leaving Sony to make $50 on it with a retail price of $499.

www.tweaktown.com

 

[Nikana]

Why you think XSX wouldn't be more expensive? It has moderately stronger GPU, (CPU, well i dunno. In both are practically the same ) and more expensive RAM chips and APU is reportedly bigger than in PS5

Anyway here, Bloomberg's estimate for PS5 and Zhuge's for XSX

Bloomberg: PlayStation 5 manufacturing costs sit at around $450

Sony's next-gen PlayStation 5 costs $450 to make, leaving Sony to make $50 on it with a retail price of $499.

www.tweaktown.com

The design of the aesthetics of the box seem to be cheaper as well as the cooling solution point to being cheaper than the PS5 in terms of those components. Not saying it won't be more but $50-$70 more is not a given.

 

[Psykodad]

The design of the aesthetics of the box seem to be cheaper as well as the cooling solution point to being cheaper than the PS5 in terms of those components. Not saying it won't be more but $50-$70 more is not a given.

So they'll likely be comparable. Yet XSX can be cheap and PS5 can't?

 

[Leyasu]

XsS 299
XsX 499
PS5 disc 499
PS5 digital 449

Spoiler

XsX 2Tb 659
PS5 disc 2Tb 659 You read it here first

 

[Nikana]

So they'll likely be comparable. Yet XSX can be cheap and PS5 can't?

Think you meant to quote someone else?

 

[Psykodad]

Think you meant to quote someone else?

No.

 

[Nikana]

No.

No idea what you're talking about. Never said either one couldn't be or will be cheap.

 

[Psykodad]

No idea what you're talking about. Never said either one couldn't be or will be cheap.

Our whole discussion was based on the speculation of XSX being $399.
Hence my question.

 

[Nikana]

Our whole discussion was based on the speculation of XSX being $399.
Hence my question.

No it's wasn't. I simply quoted your BOM assumption with a correction. Never said XSX will be $399.

 

[Virex]

Neo account with 2 posts already aggressively accusing people of FUD and trolling over semantics.
You sir, have a great future here!

A lot of Neo Members lately are very retar.......emm....what I meant is. A lot of Neo Members lately seem to be extremely mentally deficient

 

[Psykodad]

No it's wasn't. I simply quoted your BOM assumption with a correction. Never said XSX will be $399.

And what I said was based on the aforementioned speculation.

 

[Nikana]

And what I said was based on the aforementioned speculation.

Ok.

 

[93xfan]

Fucking MS botching nextgen again. XSX is awesome but of course they have to fuck it all up by making that Lockhart shit as base for nextgen games.

All games will be on PC and minimum PC specs will be the limiting factor for at least most of the generation, in all likelihood.

 

[jimbojim]

The design of the aesthetics of the box seem to be cheaper as well as the cooling solution point to being cheaper than the PS5 in terms of those components. Not saying it won't be more but $50-$70 more is not a given.

Also Sony customized their own cooling solution to make it cheaper also and minimize the cost.

 

[TheCrimsnFuckr]

Slower CPU and less RAM?!? Very weird as the thought was “just” a bit less ram as it targets 1080p and a bit slower GPU for the same reason but no CPU speed differential.

Lower quality assets to stream, lower resolution (so less draw distance and slightly less entities to compute) and the same technologies. As long as the CPU is still above 3Ghz (my guess is around 3.2Ghz) it will be fine. The PS5 CPU maxes out at 3.5Ghz and is variable, whereas XSX is 3.8. It's fine and won't affect very many things.

Remember, they are hardware experts, we are just gamers with limited understanding of the technology

 

[Nikana]

Also Sony customized their own cooling solution to make it cheaper also and minimize the cost.

Customization doesn't mean it's cheaper than what the series X has. That means it's cheaper then having someone else design it and then making it. It still could cost more than the series X cooling.

 

[Tulipanzo]

All games will be on PC and minimum PC specs will be the limiting factor for at least most of the generation, in all likelihood.

1) PC minimum specs can be set to match whatever devs want
2) PC still requires optimization to run properly, so another, much weaker SKU will require a lot of attention

 

[Tulipanzo]

Customization doesn't mean it's cheaper than what the series X has. That means it's cheaper then having someone else design it and then making it. It still could cost more than the series X cooling.

This feels rather pointless, we have much more solid BoM estimates for PS5 than either XSX and Lockhart.
Point is, given SSD is a major cost driver, the Lockhart is very unlikely to be below $350 BoM, even with its butchered feature set.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

What if XSS gave you 2 options, (1) play games locally at reduced resolution and quality, or (2) stream XSX-quality versions of the same game via xCloud? I feel like that would be a very clever offering, and a bit of a trojan horse to expand the reach of xCloud. It gives gamers with limited budgets the ability to experience XSX quality, though with some compromises due to streaming. I don't know if this would necessarily cannibalize their game sales either, as the xCloud version of the game could be tied to the store product that was purchased. So, you pay the same for the game as an XSX owner, but you save money on the hardware. Game devs make the same money either way, but it opens the platform up to a wider income demographic. That could make the pricing decision on the XSX even easier for them, as the profit model (game licenses) shouldn't be affected.

 

[Nikana]

This feels rather pointless, we have much more solid BoM estimates for PS5 than either XSX and Lockhart.
Point is, given SSD is a major cost driver, the Lockhart is very unlikely to be below $350 BoM, even with its butchered feature set.

Never said anything to the contrary.

 

[Kataploom]

A 1080p cheaper next-gen console? LOVING IT.

The ones complaining about the machine being "too weak" and fearing their games being held back because of it, really know nothing about how much resource hungry is a resolution bump is and how much just lowering the resolution will free up a lot of resources for games.

For one, texture sizes this gen are already enourmous to begin with so there wouldn't much difference for next-gen so RAM consume won't be much higher in this regard.

Also: RAM is expensive and there have been shortages of it in the market iirc, so that's probably why platform holders focused more on SSD for I/O (which will do the same in runtime but without possible shortages issues or being more long term cost efficient).

Also, the main difference is not the RAM, which actually has the smallest bump I've seen between generations, it's the CPU, SSD (both a night/day compared to current gen) and GPU (a very decent improvement, like it should be), and those are basically confirmed to be there.

For many people, resolution is not even top 5 priority since 1080p or 1440p is more than enough, those (we?) are the market for this product.

TL;DR: This would be the same difference between base and "pro" consoles this gen, they just increased GPU but left same CPU, so games were the same but higher resolution/effects quality.

 

[jimbojim]

This feels rather pointless, we have much more solid BoM estimates for PS5 than either XSX and Lockhart.
Point is, given SSD is a major cost driver, the Lockhart is very unlikely to be below $350 BoM, even with its butchered feature set.

We also have solid insight for XSX BOM. Zhuge surely has data for TSMC. Because he is covering whole Asia market.