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[badcrumble]

We just find it sad : Gabe makes great games and we have to play it on our PCs instead of our PS3s.

To be fair, Valve games really should be played on PCs no matter what. Stuff like the Half-Life weapon selection system is clearly not designed with a console in mind.

 

[mike0513]

To be fair, Valve games really should be played on PCs no matter what. Stuff like the Half-Life weapon selection system is clearly not designed with a console in mind.

Left 4 Dead is another great example of this, having played both versions, the precision you can get with the mouse is simply unmatched on the console in all regards.

 

[StuBurns]

To be fair, Valve games really should be played on PCs no matter what. Stuff like the Half-Life weapon selection system is clearly not designed with a console in mind.

The pacing is off on console as well, they're masters of pacing and design, half their mastery is completely absent on the console version of HL2 and it's kids. TF2 is crap on there too. Although I do think L4D, while still much better on PC, is rock solid on console, it at least rivals the best the console has to offer in terms of interface and control.

 

[gregor7777]

What a shameful OP, and even worse first page.

Interesting article, but it's too bad some of you PS3 owners are fucking bonkers. Makes it hard to come in to any PS3 focused thread.

Anyway, it's awesome that there's so much open sharing going on amongst the first parties. Hopefully some of that sharing does indeed make it out to the third parties. The quality gap between 1st and 3rd on the PS3 is wider than I think any other console I've ever owned.

 

[nib95]

On the topic of Valve/Gabe. They make great games, no doubt (HL" is my 2nd fave game of all time). But none of their games are exactly technological marvels are they. Not any more anyway. Imo the HL2 engine, even in it's more updated forms is still rather archaic and in need of an overhaul. And that's on PC hardware.

Uncharted 2 however, is a technical marvel in every sense of the word. Though I still prefer KZ2's art direction. KZ2 just wreaks of style, and this cinematic fluidity that is no where to be seen in any other video game imo. The post processing, the lighting, the particle effects. Mind blowing stuff man.

 

[Mastperf]

I would expect a game built for one system to be impossible on another with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[M3Freak]

Can't wait to play UNCHARTED 2!!!222!!!

I think they're making better games than the Jak era before Wells and Balestra took over as co-prez.

I can't wait to play the multiplayer - so smooth, so fun, oh God, I'm melting from the awesomeness.

 

[M3Freak]

What a shameful OP, and even worse first page.

Interesting article, but it's too bad some of you PS3 owners are fucking bonkers. Makes it hard to come in to any PS3 focused thread.

Anyway, it's awesome that there's so much open sharing going on amongst the first parties. Hopefully some of that sharing does indeed make it out to the third parties. The quality gap between 1st and 3rd on the PS3 is wider than I think any other console I've ever owned.

If first party devs can't make games that blow the shit out of third party efforts, the first parties have no business being first party! If ANYONE should know the system in and out, it's the damn first parties. Sony SHOULD have in-house dev teams that can do things no other teams can. How else would they be able to convince people to buy a PS3 instead of something else?

Third parties are great, but showcase titles are a necessity, and they absolutely must crush all other efforts.

(well, the above is how I'd do it, anyway )

 

[StuBurns]

If first party devs can't make games that blow the shit out of third party efforts, the first parties have no business being first party! If ANYONE should know the system in and out, it's the damn first parties. Sony SHOULD have in-house dev teams that can do things no other teams can. How else would they be able to convince people to buy a PS3 instead of something else?

Third parties are great, but showcase titles are a necessity, and they absolutely must crush all other efforts.

The point of being a first party is not to sell the most consoles, it's to sell the most software and therefore reap the highest licensing fees. There is something to producing very high quality software so people buy the system and there is a larger install base so you can sell more third party software, and third parties are more attracted to your platform. However, the idea of producing an obtuse console and not supporting your third parties as well as possible is insane. MS have an easier console to work with, and provide better support. As a third party publisher, it has to be the more attractive platform.

No, first party software shouldn't be utterly murdering the third party stuff. It's certainly not the case on the 360, Epic make MS first party look like juniors.

As for Uncharted 2, because this holiday is now barren, this is probably my most anticipated title. And it looks insane. I just hope they haven't shown too much.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Like Uncharted 2, GT5, KZ2, it's not like Naughty Dog can make something out of nothing. And that's not an insult, they're amazing of course.

My very basic understanding of Gabe's point is that it's a waste of time having to deal with the architecture, because it's possible to have just one massive core that has equal power, and a developer would therefore not have to worry about parallel processing etc. With GPUs it doesn't really matter because it's very easy to split that work load up, but with the CPU it's much hard to manage the game design over the Cell, and that's true. Just having huge centralized power is obviously preferable, they're in the business of making games, the less time spent managing resources the better. However, having all the Cell's power in a single core would have cost an obscene amount. The way processors are currently built means they can't just get more powerful forever, they will be equally powerful and there'll just be more of them. I'm sure it'll continue to piss designers off, but it's not really avoidable currently.

If the PS4 has a Cell based architecture developers won't have the seven year tools restart and they'll already have a good foothold of how to work with it. Despite being out the gate a bit of a fuck up, we're already seeing great use of the PS3, and it's possible in the long run it will be a better idea than using a more general PC style design. Then again, they might have fucked up so bad they're out of the business next time.

This.

Developers need to face the fact that single-processor cores cannot continue to increase in performance at the pace they have traditionally. Almost every PC made within the last 5 years has multiple cores, anyway. The processor of choice for many PC gamers, the Core i7? It can run 6 threads simultaneously. How is that much different from the Cell?

The fact is that many-core processors are easier to scale and more efficient than super-duper single-core processors. Yeah, it sucks for development a little bit at first, but it gets better.

 

[Zombie James]

About the Gabe thing, I was being half serious. Everyone knows the man complains about Cell every chance he gets, so if he doesn't have the ability to wrap his head around Cell and Naughty dog is welcoming third-party developers into their offices and giving out source code... book that appointment. If you're a third-party dev with difficulties and someone with a shitload of experience is welcoming you with open arms to teach you how to get the best out of the platform so your games perform better, why not take it?

It wasn't a stab at Valve at all. Relax, shit :lol

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Sorry for going offtopic, but this is just getting ridiculous now.

This.

Developers need to face the fact that single-processor cores cannot continue to increase in performance at the pace they have traditionally. Almost every PC made within the last 5 years has multiple cores, anyway. The processor of choice for many PC gamers, the Core i7? It can run 6 threads simultaneously. How is that much different from the Cell?

The fact is that many-core processors are easier to scale and more efficient than super-duper single-core processors. Yeah, it sucks for development a little bit at first, but it gets better.

Ok, wtf is this.

Valve moved to multicore AGES ago.

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2006/11/02/Multi_core_in_the_Source_Engin/1

How is that much different from the Cell?

The cell needs shitloads of specialised code that's usuable only for the cell, nothing else, what they'd learn on that processor won't nescessarily help GAMING projects for the other platforms. That's what he means by waste of time.

 

[artist]

i hate bullshit like this. Just make a good game, and shut the hell up. ok? who cares about the fking 360. In a few years im going to be able to play your "impossible game" at 650fps and real full 1080p with my low end pc with 257 intel cores. and you are going to look super dumb.

A lot of -people- here seems to really hate this Gabe guy, he must be awesome :lol

This junior is trying too hard. :lol

About the Gabe thing, I was being half serious. Everyone knows the man complains about Cell every chance he gets, so if he doesn't have the ability to wrap his head around Cell and Naughty dog is welcoming third-party developers into their offices and giving out source code... book that appointment. If you're a third-party dev with difficulties and someone with a shitload of experience is welcoming you with open arms to teach you how to get the best out of the platform so your games perform better, why not take it?

It wasn't a stab at Valve at all. Relax, shit :lol

Valve is #1 dev IMO because I'm a PC at heart. But when it comes to their support to 360 and especially PS3, they suck compared to other devs.

 

[Zombie James]

The cell needs shitloads of specialised code that's usuable only for the cell, nothing else, what they'd learn on that processor won't nescessarily help GAMING projects for the other platforms. That's what he means by waste of time.

IIRC, Criterion said working on Cell helped make the 360 version better (or something to the effect that working on the PS3 can be a benefit to the 360).

 

[drakesfortune]

A lot of -people- here seems to really hate this Gabe guy, he must be awesome :lol

People, as opposed to trolls like someone who will remain nameless?

Uh, I love the work Gabe has done, but he was very hard on the PS3, and so it's no surprise that when a game that's graphically unbelievable comes along and that company is offering 3rd party help for those who are having a tough time with it, that people would rub it in his face a bit.

It's true that devs would prefer one super fast core, but I think most of them are starting to accept reality that things are going the opposite direction, and fast. We're going to see more and more cores in computers and consoles, and things are going to continue going that way until the technology changes in some paradigm shifting way. So these guys need to get their engines running and scalable to work with anywhere from 1 to any number of cores. Especially companies that are trying to make an engine that works on a lot of platforms like Valve.

I do think they missed the boat on PS3, and that was probably a mistake. Not only would their engine probably benefit from the work they'd do on PS3, but they could also make a good chunk of money if they actually made the engine run well. There's no doubt that the PS3 is a lot harder to develop for, we've seen mountains of evidence saying that's true. I think it's also true that if you refine your engine enough, you can make things happen on PS3 that you can't do on other consoles, and that if your game runs well on PS3 and is a good game you can sell a lot of copies and make a lot of money. I say that as a very happy 360 owner as well.

To be fair, Valve games really should be played on PCs no matter what. Stuff like the Half-Life weapon selection system is clearly not designed with a console in mind.

And toast should only be eaten with one teaspoon of butter on top, not more, not less, not with jelly, not with peanut butter, and certainly not with a combination of jelly and peanut butter.

 

[jonabbey]

This.

Developers need to face the fact that single-processor cores cannot continue to increase in performance at the pace they have traditionally. Almost every PC made within the last 5 years has multiple cores, anyway. The processor of choice for many PC gamers, the Core i7? It can run 6 threads simultaneously. How is that much different from the Cell?

The i7 has 4 cores and 8 threads. Cell in PS3 has 8 cores and 9 threads.

The real difference is that Cell runs at a higher clock speed and is way way cheaper, with much less on-board cache, much less performance on its single PPE core, and the potential for higher single precision performance across its 7 SPUs, if the code is carefully crafted to maximize concurrency and memory handling.

Not bad for a chip that came out 3-4 years earlier than i7.

 

[Vinci]

In all honesty, that sound thing is pretty nifty. I'm not sure it's going to make or break a game for me, but it's a nice thing to include for other developers' use. A Thief game using that tech would be godly.

 

[proposition]

I didn't want to become involved in yet another Valve vs PS3 fanboys threadshit, but I want to say this because people don't seem to understand what Gabe actually said about the PS3.

He did not say anything to the effect of 'it has less power than the 360' or 'it sucks for gaming'. What he said was that investing in learning the PS3 (Cell) does not give long-term benefits:

"Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits. There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created", Newell told Edge magazine.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/he-hate-them/gabe-newell-totally-hates-the-ps3-309613.php

He was specifically talking about Cell, not multicore processors in general. Just Cell, because it has an idiosyncratic approach to multicore processing that no-one else is following (heterogenous cores vs homogeneous cores).

His claim was about investing money and time into learning how to use Cell vs. return on your investment, which he didn't believe was there. Nothing to the effect of 'it's really crap and has no power and it will struggle to keep up with 360' or anything to the effect that ND and Uncharted 2 somehow gets pie on his face and show how wrong he was.

 

[mrklaw]

Is learning to use the PS3 architecture not going to help some devs as other consoles and PCs move towards multicore architectures? Or are they relying on the operating systems to handle scheduling etc for them, so they can just treat it like one big chip?

its a bridge you have to cross at some point, isn't it?

Likewise if things move towards multicore processors like larabee handling graphics as well, those devs that have experience in software rendering techniques (like perhaps PS3/SPUs encourage a little) will have an advantage over those doing more simple DX9 stuff with shaders?

 

[Fenderputty]

Naughty Dog also used the SPUs to add physics to the sound so things occlude properly. That means that if you're behind a door, the sound will reflect that. Effects will sound different depending on where your character is in relation to the source. "

So stoked. The audio in the first was amazing as well. I've done an extremely good job of not viewing any media on the second one. Not making the same mistake I made with KZ2. Can't fucking wait.

 

[proposition]

Is learning to use the PS3 architecture not going to help some devs as other consoles and PCs move towards multicore architectures? Or are they relying on the operating systems to handle scheduling etc for them, so they can just treat it like one big chip?

its a bridge you have to cross at some point, isn't it?

Likewise if things move towards multicore processors like larabee handling graphics as well, those devs that have experience in software rendering techniques (like perhaps PS3/SPUs encourage a little) will have an advantage over those doing more simple DX9 stuff with shaders?

I don't know enough about the technology to say whether Gabe's comment is accurate (though my gut instinct is that it's a little hyperbolic).

 

[jett]

Well, that isn't always true. MGS4 was a surprisingly large game and used only a couple FMVs with 95% of the cutscenes being realtime. Of course, I somehow doubt KojiPro effectively managed the size of their data based on the loading performance of the game.

MGS4 is something that I don't really understand. It has average textures, your regular compressed Dolby Digital audio and at most 40 minutes of video...oh well. Like you said, they no doubt mismanaged their data. Whoever was in charge of that shit needs to go back to school or something. What a fucking disaster that game is in terms of loading. Anyway I'm going OT here.

Personally I don't care that ND fmv's their cut-scenes, but it's a shame you can't see the bonus constumes in there.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

IIRC, Criterion said working on Cell helped make the 360 version better (or something to the effect that working on the PS3 can be a benefit to the 360).

In their podcast they elaborated on this, they were talking about certain tools (memory management i believe) that sony provided, and likewise 360 tools helped the ps3 version. I don't believe they were talking about the CELL.

The i7 has 4 cores and 8 threads. Cell in PS3 has 8 cores and 9 threads.

@proposition: Thank you for finding the quote.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

I read the full article and found nothing about Gabe Newell or Valve. It is a shame that this thread is mostly about them and not about the game and the efforts of ND.

Agreed. We all know that Valve is awesome and makes some of the best games ever, but ND needs some time to shine. Lets stop focusing on the Gabe and give ND some props for their beautiful, exclusive console title. If valve thought PS3 development was worthwhile I'm sure they could learn a lot from the guys at ND, and vice versa, if ND ever decided to make a multiplatform game they could learn a lot from Valve. And with this falls lineup, lets face it, Uncharted 2 needs all the exposure it can get.

 

[TheExodu5]

Ok, wtf is this.

Valve moved to multicore AGES ago.

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2006/11/02/Multi_core_in_the_Source_Engin/1

Source multicore support is not very good. It's still running mostly everything on the first core, and a very small portion of the work is moved on to the second core. Just check your CPU utilization while playing TF2.

As for Cell development not helping other multicore development? Bullshit.

Cell offers mostly everything that a regular multicore CPU offers. The difference is, more care has to be taken at the lower level, mostly in terms of memory management. There are a few other differences like branch prediction capability, but taking care of that on the PS3 would not be detrimental to general multicore development. At a slightly higher level, I'm sure development can be modularized to work on both Cell and a standard multicore x86 PC architecture.

 

[Zen]

I also think Sony's studios in Europe are doing some great things too. Those tech demos that leaked a while ago showed some really impressive stuff.

Links?

 

[dark10x]

The pacing is off on console as well, they're masters of pacing and design, half their mastery is completely absent on the console version of HL2 and it's kids.

What is off about it? I thought it compared favorably to the PC version. The 360 version, at least, played just like the PC version with the 30 fps limiter enabled. I prefer playing on the PC, of course, but I don't think anyone is missing out by playing HL2 on the 360.

 

[Armitage]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

 

[Milk Lizard]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy?.

Here comes the shit storm.

 

[MrJollyLivesNextDoor]

In their podcast they elaborated on this, they were talking about certain tools (memory management i believe) that sony provided, and likewise 360 tools helped the ps3 version. I don't believe they were talking about the CELL.

@proposition: Thank you for finding the quote.

Cell doesn't have 8 cores, it's more like 1 core plus 7 additional coprocessors.

Gabe and to some extent Carmack have bitched about a lot of different technologies in the past, even multicore in general when they are now both supporting it to some degree. I can understand where Newell is coming from, Cell isn't really like a regular CPU made for general purpose processing, it's quite specific in it's tasks and needs the programming to go with it and what with the Source engine being notoriously hard to port (and don't say orange box on 360 is a good port because in reality it isn't) i'm not surprised he's not willing to put so much effort into a project which potentially might fall dead in the water.

Although cell has been a bit controversial i actually really like it when devs like ND and GG embrace the hardware then turn around and say 'this is what we have done' and show off incredibly genius workarounds and uses of the technology they have. It was exactly the same with PS2 seeing after years development and games like GoW2 and SotC kept coming, for me thats half of what makes the visuals so great and just being able to appreciate whats gone into it from a development standpoint.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

I am pretty sure the article cited in the OP says nothing about Gabe, Valve, or Half-Life/L4D

 

[evolution]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

Naughty Dog is B-Rate now? Its like you want everyone to laugh you. You probably didn't even read the article.

 

[StuBurns]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

Armitage just shot himself in the foot, I don't know how much you know about GAF culture, but I'm an expert...

 

[Armitage]

Here comes the shit storm.

That's the thing. There is no shit storm. It's just some fanboys being uppity at a respected developer who bad mouthed their favorite piece of plastic. Nobody really cares all that much, except for the people who care too much about everything like this.

I am pretty sure the article cited in the OP says nothing about Gabe, Valve, or Half-Life/L4D

Did we read the same first page?

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

Armitage
Constantly slobbing some bloke's knob
...Not Groovy
(Today, 02:53 PM)
Reply | Quote

 

[Loudninja]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

Really Valve are great devs but calling Naughty B-rate is just stupid.

 

[roMonster]

That's the thing. There is no shit storm. It's just some fanboys being uppity at a respected developer who bad mouthed their favorite piece of plastic. Nobody really cares all that much, except for the people who care too much about everything like this.

And you're on the other side of the line.

Four words in the OP made ya type your--umm--response.

 

[Zombie James]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

B-rate? :lol

 

[Donos]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

 

[Armitage]

And you're on the other side of the line.

Four words in the OP made ya type your--umm--response.

Oh come on, the whole first page was full of typical fanboy zingers.

Easy there guys, b rate doesn't mean BAD. But this is the developer that made Crash Bandicoot and Uncharted. Not exactly revolutionary fare, I'm sure you'd agree.

 

[StuBurns]

Oh come on, the whole first page was full of typical fanboy zingers.

Was it? Is disagreeing someone 'typical fanboy zingers'? Is it not wholly possible no one gives a fuck about the console war and just happen to disagree with Gabe?
You're an idiot. You are the reason threads devolve into fanboy wars, because people label typical conversation as something it's not.

 

[Keikoku]

Really Valve are great devs but calling Naughty B-rate is just stupid.

And I assume that calling Valve b-rate (obviously what the OP meant) isn't as retarded as this ?

Valve has nothing to learn from Naughty Dog, they made much more better games than them, Half Life is a classic masterpiece, same goes for HL² Ep2 and many other stuff. The ND praise is pretty much Gaf exlusive. For an average gamer they're just good developers among many others...

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Did we read the same first page?

You find the quote in the article where ND is "bitching" about something. I am pretty sure what I read is an article about a developer declaring they are taking full advantage of the PS3 and are gladly sharing that knowledge with other developers. Your reading the comments of a few chowder heads on GAF and attaching those comments to ND is your oversight, not mine.

 

[Fenderputty]

That's the thing. There is no shit storm. It's just some fanboys being uppity at a respected developer who bad mouthed their favorite piece of plastic. Nobody really cares all that much, except for the people who care too much about everything like this.

and an earlier quote:

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

Ever look in the mirror?

 

[Armitage]

You find the quote in the article where ND is "bitching" about something. I am pretty sure what I read is an article about a developer declaring they are taking full advantage of the PS3 and are gladly sharing that knowledge with other developers. Your reading the comments of a few chowder heads on GAF and attaching those comments to ND is your oversight, not mine.

Not talking about ND's bitching there.

I wonder why there is so much attention given to Gabe, anyways. He has very little to do with the PS3's success. Could it be a touch of jealousy? Let it out.

 

[templeusox]

And I assume that calling Valve b-rate (obviously what the OP meant) isn't as retarded as this ?

It was not a specific jab at Valve. More an allusion to a statement Newell infamously made. And It was a throwaway line. So relax.

 

[Zombie James]

And I assume that calling Valve b-rate (obviously what the OP meant) isn't as retarded as this ?

Yeah, let's take our assumption caps off, buddy. I never mentioned Valve.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Yes guys, I'm sure Gabe cares about a b-rate console developer's bitching. You're seriously comparing naughty dog to Valve? Two of the greatest FPSs ever vs. a mediocre adventure dealy? I understand why you'd be excited about dynamic sound, though.

lol just when I thought the pot was starting to settle.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

He has very little to do with the PS3's success.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ps3-a-waste-of-time-says-valves-newell

No argument here.

 

[Dementia]

To be fair, Valve games really should be played on PCs no matter what. Stuff like the Half-Life weapon selection system is clearly not designed with a console in mind.

I actually liked the weapon selection system on the PS3 better than the PC version. But other than that, yeah, the PC version is how those games are meant to be played.


And, UNCHARTED 2!!12!!!1