Support NeoGAF

[Keikaku]

And apparently they couldn't be assed to have someone give James a brief on what he could and could not say/do on air.

Wut.

No one should need a brief to know not to call all the participants of a tournament that they're hosting cunts and make extremely insensitive jokes of the nature James was making. It's a reasonable expectation that if you're getting a second chance, you modify your behavior. If you don't, that's not on the people who gave you a second chance.

 

[Darryl]

Wow, this guy was one of the better hosts I've seen. He was so on his feet all the time. I'm surprised they didn't get along.

 

[Nzyme32]

You're wrong, James is the only good part of the panels and he knows how to entertain during the endless delays. He makes jokes about his friends and none of it is taken as serious.

True, though taking the piss out of China is probably over stepping what is reasonable for such an event and place.

 

[Vagrant]

Is it illegal to do so? Shitty, yes, but not outside his rights I don't think.

Illegal? Who said it was illegal? It's just abusing a position of power over a grudge, happens all the time. But Gabe cheapens the professionalism of his company and encourages a shit community by doing so.

The mistake was on Valve for hiring this person. If I hired Trump to host my event and then fired him after he acted like Trump I would be right to do so. But then if I put out a statement shocked it happened insulting Trump, the blame would lay at my feet even if Trump is a racist ass.

 

[Nzyme32]

Illegal? Who said it was illegal? It's just abusing a position of power over a grudge, happens all the time. But Gabe cheapens the professionalism of his company and encourages a shit community by doing so.

That we can agree on

 

[Cybit]

They were pretty clear in the statement that Valve had people who lobbied internally for 2GD to have a second chance at hosting after previous (undisclosed) issues. Gabe called that "a mistake" now.

Yes. It appears to be the lead developer (who was the original DotA programmer for WC3) who probably lobbied for him. (EDIT: Misread James' statement, Bruno was involved in TI5, not Shanghai). Gabe comes to TI and stays pretty much the entire time - He's always having a blast taking pictures with folks and talking about Dota 2, and is an unbelievably giving and kind soul during the entirety of the tournament. So it's not like he doesn't have at least some idea of what's going on, and I am pretty sure Gabe himself really cares about TI (and by extension, the Majors).

Their TI5 host (Redeye, probably the best esports host in the world) had also asked to come and host, and Valve / Perfect World said no, even though they do have multiple hosts, and there was no "choice" between 2GD and Redeye. From all intents and purposes, it seems there was a severe lack of communication between Gabe and IceFrog/Bruno; which seems to be tied to a lack of interest in the layers between Gabe and the folks on the ground floor.

Honestly, the 2GD thing is just symptomatic of Valve's complete lack of effort (outside Gabe, IceFrog, Bruno, and the few folks who work on Dota 2) to try to professionalize the actual event, even though they claim they keep wanting to. Just like Steam - they want to make their money being the middle-man rather than being the ones in charge and running the show, even though it is their game and their show. But it seems everyone in between Gabe and the folks doing the actual grunt work doesn't give a crap, and so there are a lot of things that fall in between the cracks.

Riot and Blizzard have both given them a really good template on how to move forward with the Majors - and Blizzard has a decent balance (though I think it is going away) about third party tournament support while running major tournaments yourselves. Between the Steam security incident and Shanghai Major - it's easy to believe that Valve seems to basically have gone on complete cruise control, knowing that their fans are true believers enough that they basically can do no wrong.

 

[LiQuid!]

Wut.

No one should need a brief to know not to call all the participants of a tournament that they're hosting cunts and make extremely insensitive jokes of the nature James was making. It's a reasonable expectation that if you're getting a second chance, you modify your behavior. If you don't, that's not on the people who gave you a second chance.

There was hoopla about the decision to hire James back when it was announced. If they wanted a "professional" they should have went back to Redeye. They went with James. They KNEW he was going to be James. There was no reason for James to believe this even was a "second chance" because he wanted out of hosting post-TI4 (he goes over this in his statement and was outspoken about it in interviews around TI4). He was not dismissed from duty the way he was here. So yes, it is reasonable to think that someone should have told him to tone down the "2GD" persona if that's what they wanted, rather than Icefrog telling him to be himself which is giving him carte blanche.

 

[Vagrant]

That we can agree on

That's all I'm saying. I completely agree with firing the guy. I just think Gabe's professional demeanor here was lacking and a bad look for a company with a history of PR issues.

 

[nilbog21]

That's all I'm saying. I completely agree with firing the guy. I just think Gabe's professional demeanor here was lacking and a bad look for a company with a history of PR issues.

lol professional demeanor making valve look bad.. Everything gabe newell does is to satisfy the community, give me a break

That being said Valve has had a lot of problems w/ casters. I know they pulled Tobi from the grand final because he is an egomaniac. I'm sure James is too

 

[Keikaku]

There was hoopla about the decision to hire James back when it was announced. If they wanted a "professional" they should have went back to Redeye. They went with James. They KNEW he was going to be James. There was no reason for James to believe this even was a "second chance" because he wanted out of hosting post-TI4 (he goes over this in his statement and was outspoken about it in interviews around TI4). He was not dismissed from duty the way he was here. So yes, it is reasonable to think that someone should have told him to tone down the "2GD" persona if that's what they wanted, rather than Icefrog telling him to be himself which is giving him carte blanche.

I don't agree. To quote myself from earlier:

Yes, James has behaved poorly before but that doesn't mean that, if you hire him, you should always expect the worst behavior from him. If someone tells me to "be myself", that doesn't mean "Hey, it's OK to behave as poorly as you have in the past". Even if your shtick is behaving poorly or being a bit of an ass, there's a way to do it that is friendly and enhances banter. Paul Chaloner /ReDeYe, for example, lays out performance after performance where he demonstrates how to both keep it real and also keep it professional. Since James apparently can't handle this task, they're well within their rights to fire him and I'm glad they did.

I can agree that ReDeYe would have been a better choice but that doesn't mean that James isn't also solely responsible for his behavior.

 

[Xeteh]

>"Valve told me to be myself", actually, IceFrog told him to be himself and Gabe didn't like the result.

Yup. Idk why he took IceFrog's skype convo as total immunity to do whatever he wanted

We get it, you don't like James. It is insane how many people from inside the community can come out and say very nice things about him but people here act like he's a demon because he said mean things once upon a time.

Get over it.

 

[Iorv3th]

Dude isn't good. Simple as that. Good at being awkward and making inappropriate comments.

 

[Nzyme32]

That's all I'm saying. I completely agree with firing the guy. I just think Gabe's professional demeanor here was lacking and a bad look for a company with a history of PR issues.

I think it is good to point out that Gabe himself has had problems with composing himself in the past. For example HL2 got it's original release date just on Gabe's whim, even though he was aware it wasn't looking possible to do it, and only at the last minute did he finally step up with the change of plans publicly. It wouldn't surprise if both as a fan and knowing the community outrage that he typed out the statement, without thought of the language or how it might affect James

 

[Jebusman]

We get it, you don't like James. It is insane how many people from inside the community can come out and say very nice things about him but people here act like he's a demon because he said mean things once upon a time.

Get over it.

I also find it real funny everyone brings up that video of him calling LD a jewish fuck as him being "racist", while LD is currently being incredibly supportive of him during all this.

It's like friends can't insult each other anymore.

 

[spootime]

This really just goes to show that the CSGO major system is the best system at the moment. Provide money and let community companies decide the rest of the details. CSGO tournaments almost always run flawlessly (as they are right now w/MLG quals), talent decisions are decided on by the community, and there are no random billionaires coming down off their high horse to make arbitrary decisions and start firing people to "keep esports professional."

As an aside, the whole push to make "esports" professional makes zero sense to me. Why do people give a shit if esports is on ESPN? Most of the allure (to me) of esports is that it feels genuine and that everyone involved is doing it out of their love for the scene. Esports does great through twitch and it doesn't need to become a homogenized, boring, corporatized version of what it used to be.

 

[Rockin' Ranger]

lol professional demeanor making valve look bad.. Everything gabe newell does is to satisfy the community, give me a break

That being said Valve has had a lot of problems w/ casters. I know they pulled Tobi from the grand final because he is an egomaniac. I'm sure James is too

Wasn't that from Valve expecting casters to work for free during the TI2 qualifiers rather than Tobi being an egomaniac?

 

[la flama blanca]

I loved James as a caster all throughout, really breaks through the awkward and boring mess that these events normally appear to be to me.

I'm Peruvian and we're far from being an innocent bunch. If anything, I appreciate all the trash talk since I have the tiniest hope someone else will take it personally and start fucking making some changes in this god forbiden place and we can finally leave fucking stone age little by little.

/rant

Thanks for the validation. Now I don't feel so bad for shitting all over Peruvians in my games.

Spoiler

I'm Ecuadorian

 

[GorillaJu]

I didn't know who this guy was, so I just searched his name, found the first video that said "2GD in a nutshell" and yeah, as a person that does not play mobas, and saw that guy commentating, I would instantly just stop watching. This video, he was making jokes about iNcontroL's mother, and at least he stayed professional cause it seemed Geoff just wanted to snap the guy in half

I mean they fired him for a single segment, essentially and you're judging him off a compilation video of unsavory things he's done over a (comparatively) long and colorful career in esports.

You don't just fire people because you don't like them. Or I mean, not if you very well know who you're dealing with in the first place.

 

[GorillaJu]

Yes. It appears to be the lead developer (who was the original DotA programmer for WC3) and one of the community members they hired full-time (Bruno) who was well-known to be 2GD's best friend. Mind you, Gabe comes to TI and stays pretty much the entire time - He's always having a blast taking pictures with folks and talking about Dota 2, and is an unbelievably giving and kind soul during the entirety of the tournament. So it's not like he doesn't have at least some idea of what's going on, and I am pretty sure Gabe himself really cares about TI (and by extension, the Majors).

James says specifically in his letter that Bruno did NOT campaign for him to host the Shanghai major because he would be a biased party given their relationship.

 

[jorma]

Shit decision since 2GD was the best thing about the clusterfucked Shanghai major.

Redeye is good, but he's noway near James when it comes to filling 2 hours of downtime with impromptu entertainment.

#FreeYames

 

[Cybit]

James says specifically in his letter that Bruno did NOT campaign for him to host the Shanghai major because he would be a biased party given their relationship.

Huh, I thought he was saying he was. What I get for reading that letter at 6 AM or whatever. Ahh I confused Bruno lobbying him for TI5 vs Shanghai, my bad. Went back and edited that part out.

 

[Jebusman]

I didn't know who this guy was, so I just searched his name, found the first video that said "2GD in a nutshell" and yeah, as a person that does not play mobas, and saw that guy commentating, I would instantly just stop watching. This video, he was making jokes about iNcontroL's mother, and at least he stayed professional cause it seemed Geoff just wanted to snap the guy in half

If you watch the entire ASUS ROG highlight real of James and iNcontrol, they banter back and forth a lot the entire show, casually throwing insults at each other and laughing most of the way. James also proceeds to make fun of his own mother right after that joke, because equal opportunity and all that.

AMAZING what a little context can do to frame a situation.

 

[Vagrant]

I think it is good to point out that Gabe himself has had problems with composing himself in the past. For example HL2 got it's original release date just on Gabe's whim, even though he was aware it wasn't looking possible to do it, and only at the last minute did he finally step up with the change of plans publicly. It wouldn't surprise if both as a fan and knowing the community outrage that he typed out the statement, without thought of the language or how it might affect James

Oh I can believe that. And I'm very familiar with Gabe from the HL2 days (I don't know shit about dota admittedly) and didn't blame him there. He apologized and thoughtfully explained himself there and in things like the final hours of HL2. I can completely see this going the way in your hypothetical and a followup coming that acknowledges that. I guess I'm bringing it up because there's no harm in pointing out when and how people in power misstep, even if their intentions are innocent and good overall.

 

[LiQuid!]

I don't agree. To quote myself from earlier:



I can agree that ReDeYe would have been a better choice but that doesn't mean that James isn't also solely responsible for his behavior.

To behave any other way than he did in Shanghai would have been a drastic departure from literally every other on camera hosting appearance James ever made. And he would have been doing so without any request from Valve to do so. There was no onus on him to behave in any way other than the way he did.

 

[Lyng]

Is it illegal to do so? Shitty, yes, but not outside his rights I don't think.

NOT illegal but highly unprofessional. Thinking that them being a private company means they can act like children in the media and get no problems from it is naive at best.

 

[chaobreaker]

/r/Dota2 is nuts right now. You got hundreds of posters claiming the current panelists are too scared to speak out of line as if they're all just dying to make a joke involving cumming to Chinese disabled porn.

And then you got that one post decrying how Valve wants Dota to be ESPN mainstream and all the good times will cease to exist.

/r/dota2 is the worst but there's some truth in how the panel have become more reserved since James firing, though.

 

[Keikaku]

https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/703626032125861888

Turns out that James might have framed his side of the story unfairly. Who could have guessed?

 

[MikeDown]

Some of the backlash about this is ridiculous, to suggest Valve isn't within their right to fire an individual that they hired is absolutely absurd.

 

[benicillin]

/r/Dota2 is nuts right now. You got hundreds of posters claiming the current panelists are too scared to speak out of line as if they're all just dying to make a joke involving cumming to Chinese disabled porn.

And then you got that one post decrying how Valve wants Dota to be ESPN mainstream and all the good times will cease to exist.

This is the biggest problem I have with the DOTA community (and a lot of "hardcore" communities) in general. Even the thought of like, I don't know, not acting like a bunch of frat bros makes them angry at the "man" for trying to take away all their fun times. The fighting game community acts the same way, acting like the thought of not harassing female streamers or hosts for example is all the "suits" trying to take away their "good time fun."

 

[Jebusman]

There's some truth to how the panel have become more reserved since James firing, though.

And that's sad because from their perspective, given the outcrying of support for James, they were doing what they always did. And to see someone get pulled mid stream, during a game no less, likely put the fear of god into them that they've never had before.

Some of the backlash about this is ridiculous, to suggest Valve isn't within their right to fire an individual that they hired is absolutely absurd.

No one is arguing this. Of course Valve had the right to do so.

People are arguing that it was a real shitty move from Valve that they fire the one guy who was trying to salvage an absolute horrible production because he acted the same way he's always acted, having known this since they've worked with him for years, and gave him no direction to act any different. (Aside from "no more porn jokes")

 

[GorillaJu]

https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/703626032125861888

Turns out that James might have framed his side of the story unfairly. Who could have guessed?

Turns out that what Purge is saying there doesn't contradict James' story, since James could have been involved in this before Purge was ever offered employment.

 

[Trace]

https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/703626032125861888

Turns out that James might have framed his side of the story unfairly. Who could have guessed?

Man that's never happened before. It's almost like it's possible Gabe didn't descend from his throne and say "fuck this man in particular for no reason" like James' story basically says.

 

[dogmaan]

This guy's English isn't he? Of course he is.

What does that mean?

 

[Schweinehund]

A Dota 2 player being an ass, what a surprise.

I'm going with Gabe on this one.

Spoiler

3,000+ hours logged since open beta

 

[Jebusman]

https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/703626032125861888

Turns out that James might have framed his side of the story unfairly. Who could have guessed?

It's not like that top tweet points out that James could in fact still be entirely right about how that went down. Or that other personalities have since commented on how they found the entire payment scheme for TI4 uncomfortable but were too scared to speak out as they were in no position to demand anything.

 

[GorillaJu]

Some of the backlash about this is ridiculous, to suggest Valve isn't within their right to fire an individual that they hired is absolutely absurd.

Not a single person has said that that I've seen. Not one. People are reacting to the manner in which he was let go (mid-broadcast), the public humiliation ("an ass"), and the myopic manner in which he was hired, suggesting that Valve should recognize their own responsibility in being aware of the traits of the people they hire.

 

[LiQuid!]

Some of the backlash about this is ridiculous, to suggest Valve isn't within their right to fire an individual that they hired is absolutely absurd.

Who is suggesting that? The vast majority of James defenders are suggesting that Valve shouldn't have hired him in the first place, and barring that fired him with a little tact and decorum and not having their billionaire CEO publicly flay him on fucking Reddit...

 

[ashecitism]

It's not like that top tweet points out that James could in fact still be entirely right about how that went down. Or that other personalities have since commented on how they found the entire payment scheme for TI4 uncomfortable but were too scared to speak out as they were in no position to demand anything.

Can you please give links to those? Or just say who those were?

 

[Dylan]

Uh, yeah...

0:33 = Mat Damon on donuts.

 

[cerulily]

You're wrong, James is the only good part of the panels and he knows how to entertain during the endless delays. He makes jokes about his friends and none of it is taken as serious.

I disagree. I come for the game and the analysis. People making lots of in-jokes, celeb drama and other bullshit that has nothing to do with dota 2 all the time alienates me from the scene. It's the worst part about watching e-sports coverage. You're garunteed to get equal parts game and player coverage as you are caster celebrity bullshit.

 

[Riposte]

I know nothing of the DOTA scene. This 2GD guy is actually pretty amusing and charismatic, it's funny to hear him goof off and roast his friends. Seems like he's a bad fit when the pretentiousness that comes with major tournaments though. Given the circumstances as presented here, this seems like an even split in responsibility, with more towards Valve or the TO.

 

[joey_bone_bomb]

Really? Can't believe so many people here find James offensive. Not your kind of humor, OK, but offensive? Wow, lighten up a bit guys. He was the best part of this shit show and easily the most interesting/entertaining person in the room at all times.

 

[Nzyme32]

https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/703626032125861888

Turns out that James might have framed his side of the story unfairly. Who could have guessed?

Would be interesting to get more comment on the issue from others involved

 

[bj00rn_]

Gabe cheapens the professionalism of his company

I think the complete opposite. I think by Gabe cleaning up the filth and call a spade a spade the trust and professionalism is heightened.

 

[Jebusman]

Can you please give links to those? Or just say who those were?

On mobile right now so i can't check further, but I do seem to recall sunsfan making a comment to that tune, although it might have also been about the chests/items in general and not just the signatures.

I think the complete opposite. I think by Gabe cleaning up the filth and call a spade a spade the trust and professionalism is heightened.

Yes, when a vocal part of your fanbase is enraged and fellow casters/hosts/personalities come out in support of the guy being fired, I'm sure a LOT of trust has been heightened.

 

[megalowho]

Even if it wasn't a personality Valve was comfortable with, at least James brought some personality and humor to their analyst desk. As a casual fan that checks in during TI and a few big tournaments, most of the people they throw up there come off as awkward and insular, let alone when they have to stall for production issues. Compared to other major sports leagues, and even the FGC, Dota's on air talent does a poor job making the game exciting and relatable to outsiders and the lack of chemistry is palpable. They have a ways to go.

 

[Syder]

Really? Can't believe so many people here find James offensive. Not your kind of humor, OK, but offensive? Wow, lighten up a bit guys. He was the best part of this shit show and easily the most interesting/entertaining person in the room at all times.

Calling LD a 'dumb, fat, Jewish fuck' isn't offensive at all.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Jebusman]

Calling LD a 'dumb, fat, Jewish fuck' isn't offensive at all.

Spoiler

/s

A friend throwing a friend an insult isn't shocking.

Again, LD is one of the people coming out in support of James right now.

He must've been reaaaaallly offended.

 

[Tieske]

Calling LD a 'dumb, fat, Jewish fuck' isn't offensive at all.

Spoiler

/s

it is very offensive. that is the point. it wasn't funny at all, but being overly offensive was the point

what I dont get is how you can feel offended in LDs place, and how its relevant here.


Purge debunking the TI4 situation weakens James' statement alot. Needs to be clarified by himself and other figures from the panel

 

[Lucumo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/464zg1/timeline_since_secret_10_from_misshoneybadger_the/

Sigh, that's awful.