ThisWreckage
Banned
I'm not so sure that they can actively try to out price Sony if the Kinect 2.0 rumors are true. I expect the PS4 and the next Xbox to be roughly the same price primarily due to that.
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VGLeaks: First look as Durango XDK (always connected, kinect required, must install)
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
I'm not so sure that they can actively try to out price Sony if the Kinect 2.0 rumors are true. I expect the PS4 and the next Xbox to be roughly the same price primarily due to that.
funkystudent
Member
Crytek REALLY need need MS to get behind ryse and for it to succeed. Of course they are going to be like this. No one is touching CryEngine and there EA deal could be up.
Mark Rein can pimp UE around every tech reveal because epic is in a position that allows that freedom. Crytek.... Not so much
Baconsammy
Banned
The current Kinect sold, packaged and marketed by itself costs Microsoft roughly 46 dollars per unit. At least last year. Packaged with every Xbox, that price will drop (unless of course the new parts cost significantly more than the old parts, but we already know the knew via the rumor mill Kinect wont have a motor in it anymore). If Microsoft want to eat some of that cost of each sale, they've got deep enough pockets to do so. Especially if it gives them an advantage in price, which it's looking more and more like they're going to do. It's also starting to look like Sony is going to be packing in the new Eye. Based off current rumored specs, it wouldn't surprise me to see the PS4 priced between 400 and 500 dollars and the next Xbox from 300-400.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
If what I get from E3 2012 trailer is true, Ryse is a M rated Kinect title and as such will probably fail.
Allow me to explain; I have several friends with Xbox and Kinect and they bought it solely for their kids (they themselves don't touch it since each and every one of them told me that they feel silly jumping in front of the TV). There is no chance in hell that any normal parent will buy their child a body tracking roman slaying simulator.
On the other hand, how many adult people do you know that are willing to stand in front of a camera, jump around the room pretending to slay enemy soliders with their imaginary gladius?
So my point is that Crytek would be much wiser not to buddy up with Microsoft too much over a single game that is probably destined for to be a failure. What would be wise is to recognize PS4 as a very valuable future game platform. Not to mention it would also be very wise to convert this game to use standard controller instead of motion controls, since that would make it much more appealing to the market they are aiming (mature audience).
EDIT: just read on wiki that it seems that Kineckt is no longer mandatory for Ryse. If that is true, it's good news.
where?
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
I remember someone posted the same link of picture in this thread
I know what you want but maybe you're little late
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I think the mistake you are making is assuming that for Kinect to be apart of truly great videogames that hardcore gamers can enjoy, that the only option with Kinect must involve the need to have people jumping around like idiots. You can be perfectly seated and holding a controller to still get very good use out of Kinect in a serious game.
The controller and Kinect together is where Kinect has potential. I do, however, believe that the potential successful game ideas with this are limited though. Or to be more specific, I personally believe right now that the best potential lies with jrpgs or certain adventure games involving some kind of magic. But the controller still comes first in these games. Just utilize Kinect in some creative ways in battle for very special moves or on the world map to get past an obstacle of some sort. There's plenty of ways it can be done, and much more creative people than myself can think up the ideas. If developers try to do too much with Kinect, it will likely be to the detriment of the game experience. Kinect has limitations, but I think developers can be very creative in getting around those limitations in order to make incredible games. Make Kinect a really cool feeling addition to a game without having it wear out its welcome. In other words, don't overuse the darn thing, attempting to force it into every aspect of a game's design.
Maybe you are confusing tweets, the pic posted earlier in the thread was not this. Unless I completely glossed over it, again a link would help.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Well or maybe not this thread,so whatever,do what you want
JJD put that together in his head before SuperDaE officially stated it.
:lol
But he also said the leaks were old initially. Which prompted everyone to use the bias card. Even Kotaku seemed to believe he didn't have any new info at this point.
Wait. But we saw devs 'kowtowing' to Sony on the stage during the PS4 reveal. Guess the were 'amatuers' as well, Crytek simply said they can't comment on next gen due to NDA and did their best to say they will essentially be there for everyone for next gen. Why is it an issue?
Since there is a group of people who are still clinging onto this belief that the leaked specs are "old and outdated", I'll post the three most logical upgrades / sidegrades for the system.
1. More RAM
2. Better Clocks
3. Lower Clocks
Unless Microsoft is willing to spend a significant amount of money and time (500 million, 2014 launch), they are going to have to stick with what they currently have. However, just to humor GAF, let's decide to upgrade the machine for kicks.
What if Microsoft decided to increase the amount of RAM in Durango?
Currently, the RAM in Durango is designed around the constraints of DDR3 + ES RAM + DMEs. MS cannot increase the bandwith, but they could increase the amount of RAM. This will effectively near the point of overkill. Both Sony and MS have a similar RAM amount, so increasing RAM would go largely underutilized since third party development would always target the lowest common denominator. If Microsoft went anything above 9 GB of RAM, it would be a strong case of excess, especially at the bandwith they have.
What is Microsoft decided to increase the clocks on the GPU?
If the default GPU on Durango is running in the realm of 800mhz, upping the clocks to 1 ghz could get the performance level up to 1.5 TF. IMO, this is the best decision for the machine. If MS is willing to bite the bullet, perform a little engineering magic, and doesn't mind making the box bigger, they could pull more performance out of the hardware, and effectively nullify the advantage Orbis has in terms of compute by a large margin. If Durango fans want any thing, this should be it.
One last thing:
Durango fans need to understand that the machine was designed with specific goals in mind. It might sting some folks that performance of Orbis is better, but people need to ground themselves in reality. If folks are hoping that MS will suddenly increase performance because Sony announces something more impressive, it doesn't work that way. Engineers architect, design, and test things out, which time, manpower, and most importantly money.
1. More RAM
2. Better Clocks
3. Lower Clocks
Unless Microsoft is willing to spend a significant amount of money and time (500 million, 2014 launch), they are going to have to stick with what they currently have. However, just to humor GAF, let's decide to upgrade the machine for kicks.
What if Microsoft decided to increase the amount of RAM in Durango?
Currently, the RAM in Durango is designed around the constraints of DDR3 + ES RAM + DMEs. MS cannot increase the bandwith, but they could increase the amount of RAM. This will effectively near the point of overkill. Both Sony and MS have a similar RAM amount, so increasing RAM would go largely underutilized since third party development would always target the lowest common denominator. If Microsoft went anything above 9 GB of RAM, it would be a strong case of excess, especially at the bandwith they have.
What is Microsoft decided to increase the clocks on the GPU?
If the default GPU on Durango is running in the realm of 800mhz, upping the clocks to 1 ghz could get the performance level up to 1.5 TF. IMO, this is the best decision for the machine. If MS is willing to bite the bullet, perform a little engineering magic, and doesn't mind making the box bigger, they could pull more performance out of the hardware, and effectively nullify the advantage Orbis has in terms of compute by a large margin. If Durango fans want any thing, this should be it.
One last thing:
Durango fans need to understand that the machine was designed with specific goals in mind. It might sting some folks that performance of Orbis is better, but people need to ground themselves in reality. If folks are hoping that MS will suddenly increase performance because Sony announces something more impressive, it doesn't work that way. Engineers architect, design, and test things out, which time, manpower, and most importantly money.
gaming_noob
Member
Keep rubbing it in to that camp. It seems that's the only thing you're interested about in Durango threads.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I honestly think people are blowing this out of proportion. Durango doesn't need to be stronger than the PS4. It only needs to be strong enough to deliver amazing next generation games, which it is.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again: Is there anyone in doubt as to how impressive, for example, Forza by Turn 10 or Halo from 343i are going to look with Durango's current specs? Look at what they did on the 360. There's no need to hope and pray for some kind of an upgrade. Durango doesn't need one. There's this wierd notion that people should somehow be disappointed. Why? Because they aren't better than the PS4's specs?
How silly. I can't wait for the games to be shown so people can finally understand just how much they've underestimated Durango. And this talk of "constraints," I don't even agree that Durango has any. That's a very well thought out design that I think people only suggest has constraints, because there is a gross lack of appreciation for the system's overall design. The ESRAM is being referred to as a constraint. Seriously? People will learn to respect the inclusion of that ESRAM. Oh well, off to work!
I've said this before, but I'll say it again: Is there anyone in doubt as to how impressive, for example, Forza by Turn 10 or Halo from 343i are going to look with Durango's current specs? Look at what they did on the 360. There's no need to hope and pray for some kind of an upgrade. Durango doesn't need one. There's this wierd notion that people should somehow be disappointed. Why? Because they aren't better than the PS4's specs?
How silly. I can't wait for the games to be shown so people can finally understand just how much they've underestimated Durango. And this talk of "constraints," I don't even agree that Durango has any. That's a very well thought out design that I think people only suggest has constraints, because there is a gross lack of appreciation for the system's overall design. The ESRAM is being referred to as a constraint. Seriously? People will learn to respect the inclusion of that ESRAM. Oh well, off to work!
No one is underestimating Durango, it's just folks have a pretty hazy vision of what next generation is. The PS4 conference showed off some games which truly underwhelmed folks, despite them not realizing things aren't exactly final. People want something akin to Deep Down in game, and that will be quite a feat to achieve at 1080p.
I think more or less people are in disbelief Microsoft didn't choose more powerful hardware. If any company could take a loss, install a 7970, and use high bandwith memory, and have the ability to profit over time- it's Microsoft. Instead they are after living room domination with Cable, Apps, and social network connectivity. Which beg's the question, how much does MS care about the hardcore gamer? Money hats aside, their first party output will tell us all we need to know come the unveil.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I'm not having fun, I am serious about gaming. I understand we are all dinosaurs on GAF. We are soon to be extinct. Hardcore gaming with increasing budgets, failed projects, and publisher's going under does not paint a pretty picture for those of us who want a future for hardcore gamers. Microsoft, for all intents and purposes, has been more interested in Kinnect money over the past few years; and honestly, who can blame them? If I was in charge of MS, I would be going after the casual market first, and have just enough edge to appease the hardcore.Oh, you're having fun.
The gamer in me, is excited about Sony's new ethos. Destroying approval processes, courting indie devs, and 8 GB GDDR5 are all signs that would make a developer and a programmer very happy. I'll end up with both, but I understand what both company's are aiming for. Sony is making it quite obvious they want the hardcore gamer, which essentially, is the majority of GAF.
fatgamecat
Member
How much effect do you guys think more efficient next gen dev tools will have on hardcore gaming budgets? I've been reading a lot about how amazing the new engines (such as Unreal Engine 4) are for quickly and efficiently making next gen games. Might take a bit of the edge off the decline of the hardcore market.
dragonelite
Member
With that logic people can assume that they also put modified 7770 in the beta kit since it got released in february. Time will tell just hope microsoft can bring durango in the 1.8Tflops range like the ps4. Just for the sake of being competitive and both console not being irrelevant within 2 years. When pc graphics once again spring forward fast.
Maybe this console cycle will be short.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Of course, no one both companies want to see XBox and PS in the same room.
It certainly appears that the BOM will be less for the new Xbox.
I am going to speculate that Kinect's PrimeSense tech has been replaced by the 3DV stuff. There are a couple reasons I think this.
1. MS would rather not pay PrimeSense anything if they do not have to, especially since they purchased 3DV. In a Kinect BOM breakdown they speculated ~$17 for the PrimeSense reference design and hardware, so that number would certainly be a good place to start in trying to reduce the costs of Kinect. PrimeSense has to make a profit in all this.
2. There is now an IR stream that is usable for devs for helping facial recognition in low light situations. The PrimeSense IR pattern would not be particularly useful for this. VGLeaks stated that the active IR stream is what is actually being used for producing the depth data. So given that this more accurate IR stream is being used for depth sensing, one can assume the PrimeSense pattern based stuff is gone.
(BOM breakdown)
People mention no motor as a reduction in cost, which there is some, just won't be much. Perhaps there is some cost inherent in having to test this component as it is certainly something that would be most likely to fail in the hardware.
They have removed the motor so that will drop the cost probably around ~$0.50 when buying in such large bulk.(https://www.verical.com/partID/1562...ogItemView&searchName=&searchCriterion=mpnIDs)
They will probably not need that accelerometer anymore. So that is probably another ~$0.50 when buying in bulk. (http://ruilong.member.seekic.com/product_center/KXSD9.html)
So those two things don't change much of the cost, but do lower things. We obviously don't know how much the improved hardware is going to cost so of course this is all speculation.
Then there is packaging and such that add to current costs that won't be there in the future. So MS is certainly taking a hit to their total BOM for the next box, but I think they will still have a price advantage against the new playstation BOM. If Sony have a camera with every box(which is not confirmed to be the case), a controller with the touch stuff on it(the xbox controller could of course have some new stuff on it, possibly a break apart controller for Kinect), GDDR5, and more powerful stuff.
If MS is looking to control the living room with this thing, they have to come in at the right price.
:lol
Imho MS is destroying the xbox brand with foolish choices as kinect 2, DDR3,1.2 Tflops,ecc...I miss Peter Moore now the xbox division is run by idiots.
Alx
Member
I think the removal of the motor will have a bigger impact on assembly costs than components. Compared to a rigid casing, an articulated one is probably much more expensive to produce. You have more elements to make, gather and put together. That's probably more expensive than the motor itself, although I couldn't estimate that sort of cost.
Although they may not need it for common applications, I hope it's still there if it can help for things like kinect fusion (3D modeling of a room or object by moving the camera around).
phosphor112
Banned
You continue to show how you don't know shit.
PS3 had a max BW of 25GB/s with the XDR.
You can't add the GDDR3 and the XDR together. Or ANY split memory pool. Stop propagating this misinformation.
Good point.
While I do agree that is a good use, I don't foresee devs asking people to pick up their Kinects and move them around. What I actually hope, is that they create a separate Kinect v2 for PC/business use that is more easily portable for uses such as what you mentioned, without the need for any cabling. Wireless data and battery powered or something.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
The 360 requires the game be in the disc drive to play it no matter if the title is installed on the HDD or not.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
So keep losing money>profitable?Don Mattrick is game guy btw
phosphor112
Banned
:lol
Site is blocked here. What does it say.
Craig Kelly
@superdae Appreciate your comments re article. do you think final Xbox specs will be same as you leak?
Superdae
I'm unaware of any changes thus far.
He is the process of a very long and drawn out meltdown across here and B3D.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Dae had access to alpha kits specs right? Interesting that he hasn't said anything about their being a 7970 in them.
With regards to the tweet, does he also have access to beta kits specs?
With regards to the tweet, does he also have access to beta kits specs?
phosphor112
Banned
Ah, thanks. Saw that already.
Looks like he has a time out though. So hopefully he won't be talking stupid when he comes back (not holding any hope).
The more I think about this Durango problem. The more I become convinced that requiring the disc to play will be at best a fallback when you are online connection is not present or available. But for always connected consoles. There will be no need. But perhaps you will need to validate the install at least once. All speculation of course.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I fear they will attract the hardcore but only early on. They know the hardcore are the ones who buy systems first. Once they do they are now invested. Meanwhile Microsoft will wait for the install base to grow, prices of hardware to come down and shift its focus yet again on the more mainstream crowd.
Thankfully we have choices which is why it's Microsofts job to impress me. I'm already impressed by the PS4 and Sony's commitment to put gaming first. Will Microsoft also continue to charge for basic online functions? That's another area I want to see.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
It would be 35GB/s according to the wiki. I bet they used the XDR for post processing, MLAA, etc. Then transferred the frame buffer back to GDDR for output, but maybe you are right. So then we are looking at 4.3x if we start adding them for theoretical bandwidth, or 7.5x if looking at the GDDR alone (subtracting 36GB/s for non-GPU from the PS4 to be fair).
http://www.ps3devwiki.com/wiki/RSX
This is how I feel about it too. It makes sense. I think.
:lol
I'm confused, what's funny about those tweets.
Meanwhile from the thread featuring the PS4's features:
MS isn't doing anything different than Sony with the living room. I understand that we don't know what MS will do for gamers, but too many here are assuming that fighting for the living room = not appealing or targeting gamers at all.
I'm lost, why is Kinect 2 constantly brought up as a negative but the same isn't being done for the PSeye for the PS4?
The picture is incomplete, so comparisons are not fair right now. However, the PS4 looks to be a box developed by a developer for developers. Which means more and better games.
The PSeye has never been the focal point of Sony's strategy, nor has Sony tried to force integration into a bunch of games, or spent a lot of their 1st party money and development time on PSeye games, unlike microsoft. And Sony has never overpromised on the eye thing, unlike ms with their huge Kinect bullshit launch campaign.
But like I said, until ms does their reveal, and we can assess their market positioning, we don't have a whole lot to go on.
Just the standard console bias hypocrisy, nothing more nothing less.
I agree with a lot this, which is the point I was trying to make. I see a lot of assuming for how little we know.
As for Kinect, while I know MS has invested a lot into Kinect, they really didn't have a choice. I think Sony invested about the same amount in Move, but that peripheral was easier to integrate into their established franchises like Socom and KZ3 where that wasn't possible with Kinect, forcing MS to create new IPs to take advantage of the device.
One thing I don't agree with is Sony not forcing anything on devs, especially after reading the article on Uncharted 3. Sony pushed for 3D and Move support IIRC but ND said Move wouldn't work well with the game.
I really don't think MS' or Sony's end goal is any different, even if some of their executions vary from one another. Which makes the general attitude around GAF kind of puzzling for me at times.
False.
Sony's initial strategy with Move was integrating it into as many games as possible.
Not only that sony developed just as many Move IPs as MS did for Kinect.
People hate the MS had a huge campaign for Kinect, but it hands down payed off with Kinect breaking guiness book sales records in the first two months.
People also like to pretend that Sony soesnt leverage Move, but the whole world saw the Media molecule demo live on-stage at the PS4 reveal.
Just a bunch of selective memory.
Both consoles have the same strategy, but some try to pretend that MS is somehow the only one who is somehow the wrong for applying it.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Which is something that Microsoft's consoles have always been, and things we've seen so far suggest that Durango is not going to be much different in that regard. One of the main reasons why developers are praising Sony is the fact that they've finally been made an active factor in Sony's hardware design process; Microsoft routinely involves third parties in their platform planning, by now it's fully expected of them.
ChosenPredator
Banned
Yeah, I remember over the years developers always giving Microsoft props for being easy to develop for