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PoliGAF 2011: The 112th U.S. Congress is now in session: Want some graphs with that?

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Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Yeah. It was a joke. But trashing Costco? You've sunk to a new low.

Still, I'd like to see a survey of where people think their tax dollars should go.

.....And your avatar intimidates me.

That's not to disparage Costco, it's simply to say that the state should not be a membership club.

We don't really need to do that kind of survey, that's what the House of Representatives is supposed to be for. The problem is that the business of administering that function is nigh-irreparably corrupt, and what we are left with is a two-party system that represents no one well.

Speaking of the two-party system, the after party is the one you want to attend.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
GhaleonEB said:
One other data point: where the public want spending increased versus cut.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/the_american_people_love_gover.html

govtspendingchart.JPG


People love the idea of cutting spending until you get specific.

What moron seriously wants to decrease funding for education? It's sickening to me that there are 13% of Americans who want funding for public schools decreased.
 

eznark

Banned
Plinko said:
What moron seriously wants to decrease funding for education? It's sickening to me that there are 13% of Americans who want funding for public schools decreased.
No shit, that number should be much higher.
 
Plinko said:
What moron seriously wants to decrease funding for education? It's sickening to me that there are 13% of Americans who want funding for public schools decreased.
You'd be surprised at how many people actually benefit from education funding decreasing.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
badcrumble said:
Hahahaha holy cow. This would make it a crime not to deplete your entire savings before going on public assistance.

What the..? Holy shi...I don't even...
 
eznark said:
heh, you must be new here
Not really. Been lurking since 2008. I know you are a libertarian or have leanings in that direction. But surely you or potential employers would want a well educated labor force. Mandatory public education sees to that. What employer would want to hire people who could not read or do simple algebra?
 
Dr. Pangloss said:
What employer would want to hire people who could not read or do simple algebra?
An uneducated employee is less likely to strike or think they are worth more. I bet there's a ton of companies who wish there were more illiterate people they could hire. Being able to read is a giant step in your favor.
A company could more easily control someone who didn't know any better about what they're agreeing to work for, or work with.
 
At this point, ice cream flavor choice will soon be a partisan issue.
More bike lanes are good "because it's greener and healthier for people to ride their bicycles," 54 percent of New York City voters say, while 39 percent say bike lanes are bad "because it leaves less room for cars which increases traffic."

Republicans say bike lanes are bad 59 - 35 percent, while Democrats flip to 59 - 35 percent good. Independent voters say 56 - 39 percent that bike lanes are good.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1569
 
jamesinclair said:
At this point, ice cream flavor choice will soon be a partisan issue.


http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1569

I swear Republicans are just trolling the rest of us sometimes. I'm convinced the only reason Republicans are for nuclear energy is because liberals are against it. I feel like if Dems were trumpeting the virtues of nuclear technology, then the GOP would be railing against the dangers of it. Maybe that's just me, but it does seem that way.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
worldrunover said:
I swear Republicans are just trolling the rest of us sometimes. I'm convinced the only reason Republicans are for nuclear energy is because liberals are against it. I feel like if Dems were trumpeting the virtues of nuclear technology, then the GOP would be railing against the dangers of it. Maybe that's just me, but it does seem that way.
Nah, it's because nuclear technology is the pinnacle of modern industry but was crushed underfoot by hippies and tree huggers.
 
How can anyone support these tactics?

It's terrorism and they should be arrested and sent to Guantanamo.


Among the contentious items being debated is a resolution that would brand as a traitor any Republican lawmaker who agrees to let voters decide whether to extend a series of tax increases to help close the state's budget shortfall. Brown has asked the Legislature to call the special election, along with making $12.5 billion in spending cuts, to help close the state's $26.6 billion deficit.

...

The resolution would brand any lawmakers who vote for Brown's ballot proposal "traitorous Republicans-in-name-only" and call for their resignation from office. Supporters want the party to help fund recall campaigns against such politicians and prohibit them from getting financial help from the party in the future.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/03/18...-future.html#storylink=misearch#ixzz1H4uHaV5C



Thats right folks, we must put gay rights on the ballot, we must put healthcare on the ballot, but if ANYONE allows people to vote for taxes....TRAITOR!
 

Snake

Member
I love how quickly conservative punditry went from "Obama is dithering on Libya" to "Obama the warmonger."

And then there's Gingrich, whose position on this is about as stable as his marriage status.
 
Hokuten said:
I love how quickly conservative punditry went from "Obama is dithering on Libya" to "Obama the warmonger."
Tony Blankley on Left, Right, and Center was questioning whether Obama should have been working getting a no fly zone w/o getting something from Congress. This is a man who worked in the Reagan administration that literally bombed Libya without receiving any declaration of war from Congress. (Which he admitted to.)

He was being brazenly hypocritical but had absolutely no embarrassment about it.


And that applies to every other Reagan-worshipping GOPer than brings it whether he should have got something from Congress first.
 
Puddles said:
Liberals are against nuclear energy? I guess that's one area where I deviate sharply from the party line.
The Fox News stereotype of a liberal is against nuclear energy. There certainly are many liberals against nuclear energy but I doubt that is the majority view. It certainly is not the view of Obama or the run-of-the-mill Democrats. There are nuclear power plants in diehard blue states like California, Massachussets, New York, etc. 3 Mile Island, which is still operating, is in Penn.
 
speculawyer said:
Tony Blankley on Left, Right, and Center was questioning whether Obama should have been working getting a no fly zone w/o getting something from Congress. This is a man who worked in the Reagan administration that literally bombed Libya without receiving any declaration of war from Congress. (Which he admitted to.)

He was being brazenly hypocritical but had absolutely no embarrassment about it.


And that applies to every other Reagan-worshipping GOPer than brings it whether he should have got something from Congress first.

Yup, next week is going to be full blown false equivalency time on the right, with comparisons galore to Iraq and "why didn't Obama ask congress!?!?!" concern trolling. When just last week they were complaining about Obama taking so long to do something. As if asking congress would speed things up.
 
eznark said:
Who needs to get out of wars when you can jump into new ones? Hope and motherfuckin' change!
amazing troll

I don't support this campaign at all. We're no longer the world police, and given the chaos throughout the Middle East are we going to intervene every time a dictator starts attacking his own people?
 

eznark

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
amazing troll

I don't support this campaign at all. We're no longer the world police, and given the chaos throughout the Middle East are we going to intervene every time a dictator starts attacking his own people?
Of course were still the world police, we just have a new chief.
 

nyong

Banned
This is completely different from Iraq and Afghanistan in that we don't have troops on the ground. This makes all the difference in the world as it's a completely different level of commitment. Now I do see a striking similarity to pre-invasion Iraq here. I hope we've learned from our past mistakes and take sanctions off the table for the sake of the civilian populace, not to mention share the responsible of enforcing a possible no-fly zone in the long-term.

What we're hoping is that the rebels can win without explicit Western support. We'll give them material aid and air support, but no boots on the ground (apart from Special Forces). Obviously this has the potential to backfire, albeit not as badly as Iraq/Afghanistan.
 

Chichikov

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I don't support this campaign at all. We're no longer the world police, and given the chaos throughout the Middle East are we going to intervene every time a dictator starts attacking his own people?
I really don't get the slippery slope argument.
If this attack is morally justified, should we really don't do it because it will force the US to engage in other morally justified military actions in the future?

Now don't get me wrong, this is a difficult issue that I too personally struggle with (I think I fall on the 'yea' side, mainly because when in doubt, I try to focus on the utilitarian aspect of things).
I just don't get that type of reasoning.


turnbuckle said:
Me too. Pretty much every liberal I know is for nuclear as well.
That's a relatively recent development though.
Historically, many (most?) liberals strongly opposed it.
 
Ed Henry on CNN just bugs the hell out of me. Whenever he's waiting for his chance to talk he looks like he's barely containing laughter, regardless of the crisis involved.

(oops, wrong thread. This is in relation to CNN's Libya coverage)
 
PhoenixDark said:
Yup, next week is going to be full blown false equivalency time on the right, with comparisons galore to Iraq and "why didn't Obama ask congress!?!?!" concern trolling. When just last week they were complaining about Obama taking so long to do something. As if asking congress would speed things up.

You're being generous in thinking it will take until next week.
 
jamesinclair said:
How can anyone support these tactics?

It's terrorism and they should be arrested and sent to Guantanamo.




Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/03/18...-future.html#storylink=misearch#ixzz1H4uHaV5C



Thats right folks, we must put gay rights on the ballot, we must put healthcare on the ballot, but if ANYONE allows people to vote for taxes....TRAITOR!
The thing about this is Brown is only asking for tax extensions of those that already exist. There are no new taxes on that ballot. I feel CA will get really ugly if Republicans do not stop being idealistic and become more pragmatic.
 

Jackson50

Member
PhoenixDark said:
amazing troll

I don't support this campaign at all. We're no longer the world police, and given the chaos throughout the Middle East are we going to intervene every time a dictator starts attacking his own people?
Neither do I, although for other reasons; however, I think your point is related to the fear of highlighting future hypocrisy when we decide not to intervene in other events on humanitarian grounds.

Our beneficence impels us to act, yet in this instance we want to remain aloof enough to not become fully vested in the conflict. We want to prevent a humanitarian crisis, yet insofar that we do not have to intervene fully. We do not want to interject ourselves insofar that we seek to remove Qaddafi; of course, that would violate the UNSC Resolution as this is a humanitarian intervention. We want to act morally insofar that it does not require too much. I had hoped that at this point we would learn that we should apply ourselves fully if we hope to accomplish a goal.

Moreover, the endgame is wholly unknown. At what point does this cease being a humanitarian crisis and therefore our intervention unnecessary? What if the rebels counterattack? We would then be aiding them in overthrowing Qaddafi, yet the UNSC did not authorize such action. Because we have intervened, I hope we are successful; unfortunately, I have no idea what success entails. This intervention is foolhardy and naive.
 
Chichikov said:
I really don't get the slippery slope argument.
If this attack is morally justified, should we really don't do it because it will force the US to engage in other morally justified military actions in the future?

Now don't get me wrong, this is a difficult issue that I too personally struggle with (I think I fall on the 'yea' side, mainly because when in doubt, I try to focus on the utilitarian aspect of things).
I just don't get that type of reasoning.



That's a relatively recent development though.
Historically, many (most?) liberals strongly opposed it.

There are plenty of morally justifiable conflicts for the US to jump into. I don't think we should anywhere unless our interests are in danger, especially with the military already stretched and the economy so weak.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Does it piss anybody else off that the GOP is slamming Obama on the issue of Libya? It's like they think the U.S. should have invaded instantly. Lurking in some GOP forums they're now bashing him for "illegal warfare."

I'm glad he took the route he did by allowing the U.N. to do its own thing. Obama played this perfectly.
 
Plinko said:
Does it piss anybody else off that the GOP is slamming Obama on the issue of Libya? It's like they think the U.S. should have invaded instantly. Lurking in some GOP forums they're now bashing him for "illegal warfare."

I'm glad he took the route he did by allowing the U.N. to do its own thing. Obama played this perfectly.

Theres no winning.

He either didn't do enough, or did too much. It's never "just right".

Personally, I feel this is the exact correct course of action on Libya, although the UN took 1 week too long.

Now Bahrain? That's a real scar on the administration.

And please, don't anyone compare this to Iraq unless you mean desert storm.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Plinko said:
Does it piss anybody else off that the GOP is slamming Obama on the issue of Libya?

Just the latest in a long line of no win situations they manage to frame any issue in.

Their ability to find a negative talking point for everything is amazing. Outside of his "must reduce the violent rhetoric" comments, I don't think I have seen the GOP ever say anything positive about any decision or action by Obama at all or even recognise any compromise.
 

JayDubya

Banned
"Played this perfectly."

We shouldn't be involved at all.

That said, if we were going to be involved at all, Jackson50 above outlined precisely why this form of involvement is wrongheaded.

One could also say - and again, we shouldn't be involved at all -if we were going to get involved, the time to do so would have been prior to the rebels getting their asses handed to them with Benghazi being some last stronghold of resistance about to be smashed.
 

Chichikov

Member
PhoenixDark said:
There are plenty of morally justifiable conflicts for the US to jump into. I don't think we should anywhere unless our interests are in danger, especially with the military already stretched and the economy so weak.
I disagree.
I think there situations where it's a moral imperative for the US (or any capable country/organization) to intervene.

I'm not sure that Libya is such a case, but at the same time, I don't think the US is going to significantly burden its military or its economy with this operation.
 
Plinko said:
Does it piss anybody else off that the GOP is slamming Obama on the issue of Libya? It's like they think the U.S. should have invaded instantly. Lurking in some GOP forums they're now bashing him for "illegal warfare."

I'm glad he took the route he did by allowing the U.N. to do its own thing. Obama played this perfectly.
I hope he really verbally tears the GOP a new one verbally, come next term. He can't say much that might hurt his re-election. After that though, I hope his gloves come off.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
(WASHINGTON) — A new assessment of President Barack Obama's budget released Friday says the White House underestimates future budget deficits by more than $2 trillion over the upcoming decade.

The estimate from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says that if Obama's February budget submission is enacted into law it would produce deficits totaling $9.5 trillion over 10 years — an average of almost $1 trillion a year.

Obama's budget saw deficits totaling $7.2 trillion over the same period.

The difference is chiefly because CBO has a less optimistic estimate of how much the government will collect in tax revenues, partly because the administration has rosier economic projections.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2060350,00.html

Friday, friday, gotta release bad news on Friday. fun fun fun
 
JayDubya said:
"Played this perfectly."

We shouldn't be involved at all.

That said, if we were going to be involved at all, Jackson50 above outlined precisely why this form of involvement is wrongheaded.

One could also say - and again, we shouldn't be involved at all -if we were going to get involved, the time to do so would have been prior to the rebels getting their asses handed to them with Benghazi being some last stronghold of resistance about to be smashed.

Agreed. We can shoot planes down and bomb targets, but ultimately Gaddafi is going to prevail. His ground force is superior to the rebels, who seem to be failing at basic shit (like fortifying positions, digging trenches, etc). So if his forces storm Benghazi and start massacreing people, what do we do? At that point a NFZ will be useless, and then the neocons will be demanding US troops save the rebels.

It's not our business or obligation, moral or otherwise. If we base military action solely on morals, we might as well start heading for North Korea after this
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
PhoenixDark said:
Agreed. We can shoot planes down and bomb targets, but ultimately Gaddafi is going to prevail. His ground force is superior to the rebels, who seem to be failing at basic shit (like fortifying positions, digging trenches, etc). So if his forces storm Benghazi and start massacreing people, what do we do? At that point a NFZ will be useless, and then the neocons will be demanding US troops save the rebels.

It's not our business or obligation, moral or otherwise. If we base military action solely on morals, we might as well start heading for North Korea after this

I'M SURE THE PENTAGON HAS NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THIS!

You should give them a call.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Libya is a clusterfuck. There is no win in that situation. Even though it's under the banner of the UN, everyone over there will still blame America for any tragedies that happen.


Ether_Snake said:
I'M SURE THE PENTAGON HAS NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THIS!

You should give them a call.


Yes, look how well the Pentagon had prepared for Iraq once they disposed of Saddam.
 

nyong

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
Yes, look how well the Pentagon had prepared for Iraq once they disposed of Saddam.
To be fair, Bush and Co. ignored those generals who advised against going in without the right number of troops. Just about everything that went wrong in Iraq was predictable (see Bush Sr. quote). Not that this situation doesn't have potential to backfire too. It's better than putting boots on the ground, but it could still turn into another prolonged conflict.
 
PhoenixDark said:
amazing troll

I don't support this campaign at all. We're no longer the world police, and given the chaos throughout the Middle East are we going to intervene every time a dictator starts attacking his own people?
Dont make perfect be the enemy of good :(
The risks of inaction were tremendous. Would you be satisfied with Gaddafi cleaning out Benghazi while Obama sat twiddling his thumbs, and see another Rwanda unfold? Gaddafi's forces were stationed 100Km outisde Benghazi's city limits, ready to bring it down to the ground. Could have been the worst thing ever, but it led to expedited proceedings at UNSC and thankfully the NFZ passed.
 
I don't see how intervention in Libya will turn out well.

I like that Obama is trying to be as hands off as possible. If other countries want to go in there and meddle with things, that is on them.

A concern I don't think is mentioned too often is that it might start a precedent where we feel obligated that we have to assist every Arab uprising militarily because if we did it for Libya, why leave Bahrain or Yemen in the dark? What about Saudi Arabia? If we invade Libya but leave Saudi Arabia alone, people will piss and moan that we left them behind due to the oil. It will cause us to get entangled in a multibillion dollar (at a time where we can least afford it) clusterfuck that will get blamed on us.

I think this is an issue that needs to be left to the citizens of these countries. Invading or doing much of anything automatically complicates things to the point where it will seem definite that it will bite us in the ass later. A key reason is that we don't know how these revolutions will turn out. Just because there is a revolution in place does not mean that things will improve or budge much beyond the status quo. I'm being pessimistic but there were similar revolutions 40-50 years ago in these areas and many of them became worse off.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Libya is a clusterfuck. There is no win in that situation. Even though it's under the banner of the UN, everyone over there will still blame America for any tragedies that happen.
I highly disagree. This is not just another American meddling in the ME and won't dampen our image. On the contrary, it will better our relations with the Muslim world. Allow me to explain. The very first thing to take into consideration is the fact that NATO action lead by USA is a response, not unprovoked aggression. Secondly, Col. Gaddafi isn't liked in that region, and his favorability rating crashed into ground as soon as he started shelling peaceful demonstrators on the streets. Practically everyone in the Muslim world was glued to their TV Screens watching the events in Libya unfold. Things took an extremely troubling turn when Gaddafi gave a 48 hour ultimatum to Rebels in Benghazi (second most populous city) and his rhetoric contained even more worrisome language, such as "cleansing", "showing no mercy", "hunt down like rats door to door". This 48 hour ultimatum gave the UNSC required impetus to act immediately. During this timeframe, Sen. Marco Rubio asked one of the military chairpersons when will the UN implement NFZ, "before or after the bloodbath?" Considering the fact that he was bombing and shelling his own citizens, Colonel Gaddafi's actions have made him the common enemy of Islamic extremists, moderates and the west alike. This will go down as a popular and much liked decision in the Muslim world, similar to how Clinton's leadership on forming NATO alliance against Slobodan Milosovic turned out to be much liked and appreciated decision.

Anyways, the situation looked like foxes surrounding a henhouse and Al-Jazeera's continued coverage of the pro-democracy movement in middle-east, sometimes with a sympathetic view, changed the perception of intervention over in that region. The fact that US was seen as indecisive over the creation of NFZ was creating discord in the region, leaving some to believe that USA doesn't really care about Muslims and wants a continued relationship with Gaddafi and his oil fields. But these perceptions were shattered when USA ponied up support quickly after Clinton's meeting with rebels and spearheaded NFZ resolution in UNSC. The NFZ had the unprecedented support of UN, Arab League, OIC, European Union and African Union, something Iraq war 2003 was lacking dearly. This NATO intervention is seen as an answer to rebels' prayers, who have already won favor with the Muslim world.

Libyan state TV under Gaddafi will try to blame some deaths on NATO missions, but barring any major incident, everyone in that region can see through the Colonel's lies.
The Experiment said:
A concern I don't think is mentioned too often is that it might start a precedent where we feel obligated that we have to assist every Arab uprising militarily because if we did it for Libya, why leave Bahrain or Yemen in the dark? What about Saudi Arabia? If we invade Libya but leave Saudi Arabia alone, people will piss and moan that we left them behind due to the oil. It will cause us to get entangled in a multibillion dollar (at a time where we can least afford it) clusterfuck that will get blamed on us.
Again, Libya is a different animal compared to other on-going protests. None of those other countries have had their leaders drop bombs on the protesters. Libya devolved into an armed rebellion as soon as the first bomb dropped on the demonstrators, and within couple of weeks Gaddafi was looking at slaughtering an entire city using his military might. When leaders in Bahrain, Yemen and Syria start using military against their own citizens, UN will come into action.
 

nyong

Banned
All it's going to take is one high-profile mistake and all our hypothetical goodwill disappears. Places like Egypt are already reporting on speculative civilian casualties. What if it looks like the rebels are incapable of pushing onward? We're not putting boots on the ground, so do we let them fail? If it ends in a stalemate and we enforce a no-fly zone, we've literally created another post-Kuwait, pre-invasion Iraq. How will people perceive us then? Oil for Food was one of the primary reasons Bin Laden was so pissed off to begin with. And it's not like Saddam was well-liked throughout the Muslim world either.

It's still far too early to tell how the Muslim world is going to react, not to mention how events will unfold.
 
nyong said:
All it's going to take is one high-profile mistake and all our hypothetical goodwill disappears. What if it looks like the rebels are incapable of pushing onward? We're not putting boots on the ground, so do we let them fail? If it ends in a stalemate and we enforce a no-fly zone, we've literally created another post-Kuwait, pre-invasion Iraq. How will people perceive us then? Oil for Food was one of the primary reason Bin Laden was so pissed off to begin with.

Places like Egypt are already reporting on speculative civilian casualties. And it's not like Saddam was well-liked throughout the Muslim world either. It's still far too early to tell how the Muslim world is going to react, not to mention how events will unfold.
I agree its too early to tell, but my indicators are pointing towards the direction I described above. The difference between pre-invasion Iraq and Libya is that after Saddam pulled out of Kuwait, there was no sustained, countrywide rebellion against him to take him out other than Shia uprisings. I posted this in the Libyan thread, but there was a senior guy from the Libyan resistance on NPR couple of days ago (I think on the morning of UNSC resolution authorizing NFZ). He is doing the logistics work for the rebels since he has a family owned trucking business. The gist of what he said was that all they need is air cover, and they will do the rest. He said that he has seen the 'mercenaries' on the ground (the Libyan army apparently) are no match for the resistance, because all the mercs care about is money and the fact that rebels are willing to die for their cause (and mercs are not). He painted a very different situation on the ground. But conceded that Col. Gaddafi maintains air superiority and as long as it's in place, they will be hindered. He also made it perfectly clear that not a single Libyan from either side wants a foreign foot soldier on their soil. All he needs is air cover, and that the rebels will take out the Colonel themselves. Sounded very upbeat and positive, but still disappointed that it took this long. He also said that if NFZ was instituted weeks ago, the situation on the ground would have been very different. Remember, the rebels advanced all the way to Tripoli from Benghazi, which covers almost the entire coastline of northern Libya. It's pretty damn good, if you ask me. They were beaten back by air and ground attacks on all those towns.

Edit: This was the Libyan map just a few days ago before Gaddafi started his campaign:

FqfnW.jpg
 

nyong

Banned
RustyNails said:
He also said that if NFZ was instituted weeks ago, the situation on the ground would have been very different. Remember, the rebels advanced all the way to Tripoli from Benghazi, which covers almost the entire coastline of northern Libya. It's pretty damn good, if you ask me. They were beaten back by air and ground attacks on all those towns.
I do agree that it looks like the rebels have a fighting chance. I also have absolutely no moral objections to us providing assistance, although I also wasn't morally opposed to the Iraq invasion either (not in and of itself...). I am 100% against the use of sanctions this time around, though. So far I more or less approve of everything Obama has done. It's a risk, but a calculated risk worth taking (IMO).
 
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