I don't personally have an issue with a character just being female. But I think, some folks want more gender specific characters and gender specific conflicts represented in media (seeing as white males tend to dominate the landscape).
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Legend of Korra Book 3: Change |OT| SCHEDULEBENDING
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I don't personally have an issue with a character just being female. But I think, some folks want more gender specific characters and gender specific conflicts represented in media (seeing as white males tend to dominate the landscape).
There are obviously aggressive, muscular women, but like how them being female isn't the sole factor who they identify themselves as, neither is being aggressive or muscular. My question wasn't necessarily whether Korra is a good feminist character, because she isn't. She is not well written enough for that. Feminist characters are rounded characters, because everyone, male and female, all have traits that are typically feminine or masculine.
That said, I'm only arguing 'feminine and masculine traits' argument because it's almost jungian how certain traits are considered male/female. Personally, I never understood how you can take an abstract concept like 'aggression' and say "Yes, that definitely has a penis." Compassion is a trait that's stereotypically considered feminine, but all nonsociopathic men are capable of compassion, since it is an emotion that comes from having empathy, which everyone has. No one that isn't an idiot thinks less of a man because he's compassionate. Similarly, confidence is something that should be a trait in every person, because it is a stablizing factor for self esteem. And when you think how every trait applies to all people to some degree, it just seems silly to me to arbitrarily name traits as masculine or feminine when they are just human conditions. What does it matter that some traits are more represented in one gender than the other? We all have them to some extent.
But in regards to my original question, my concern lies more with the power of representation. I don't think Korra is a good feminist character, since that requires being well rounded (a trait most well written characters have anyway), but does the mere fact that she is female and respresenting females who kick ass a good thing for society (both kids and older) to be exposed to?
The things we percieve affect us on an level we are rarely ever aware of. This has been scientifically proven with various experiments. So, I am looking at Korra, and wondering, does she have a positive effect because when people see girls, they will remember they too can be strong and fight back? Or does hte fact that Korra is not very well written hinder that?
Edit: Honestly, thinking about it, Asami seems like she is more of a feminist character than Korra. She is strong like Korra, able to handle herself, shows strong moral character (season 1 anyway), is outwardly very feminine, but is also into exciting things like sports car racing, and is a the CEO of her own company. As a feminist character, she seems more well rounded, and would probably be the better representation for women.
There is also the question of how the representations of Asami and Korra work in tandum with each other. You could argue it shows the diversity of women. Women can have many 'masculine' traits like Korra, or the opposite like Asami, and both still are badasses.
Oddly enough Fairy Oddparents (Back when the show had decent writing) Did something with the girl that Timmy is always crushing on, she enjoyed boy stuff, but was too ashamed because it wasn't normal for girls to like it.
Of course later seasons made her as shallow as everyone thought, but that was just horrible writing.
Of course later seasons made her as shallow as everyone thought, but that was just horrible writing.
Woah woah woah
Endgame was amazing. It was a freaky episode and made me fear Amon more than I did when I didn't know what exactly his power was. Then in the same episode I felt sorry for him. Then Tarrlock fucking killed himself and his own brother.
Endgame was my favorite Book 1 episode.
Korra's existence is important because of very specific things like ethnic and female representation in cartoons. However, she's generally so horribly written that it puts a damper on a lot of her impact.
What we tend see of Korra is that she often loses one of the most important aspects of fine female representation that women tend to look for in media - a sense of agency. And when Korra expresses agency in some form, more often than not, it's destructive, insensitive, or just plain wrong. Following that, she's punished in some way due to the way she expresses that agency. Then after that, a character (typically male) "teaches" her something, she doesn't listen to what she's taught, and the cycle continues like this until the show's almost over and her prior behavior is finally Right.
As a black woman, when I ask for some kind of positive representation in media, I kinda expect there to be more to the character than for that character to look like me. I want them to be written well, too. That doesn't mean I have to necessarily like or agree with that character's personal ethics, but I feel that teachable moments should teach that character something, and I want that character to show what they've learned and apply that knowledge to new issues. And I don't want this to come suddenly in season 3 when it should have happened in season 1. I want natural growth over time.
Korra is a "Strong Female Character" that is full to bursting with "Strong" and "Female" but sorely lacking in "Character."
nahmsayin?
also mako sucks and ruins the show for me Kappa
What we tend see of Korra is that she often loses one of the most important aspects of fine female representation that women tend to look for in media - a sense of agency. And when Korra expresses agency in some form, more often than not, it's destructive, insensitive, or just plain wrong. Following that, she's punished in some way due to the way she expresses that agency. Then after that, a character (typically male) "teaches" her something, she doesn't listen to what she's taught, and the cycle continues like this until the show's almost over and her prior behavior is finally Right.
As a black woman, when I ask for some kind of positive representation in media, I kinda expect there to be more to the character than for that character to look like me. I want them to be written well, too. That doesn't mean I have to necessarily like or agree with that character's personal ethics, but I feel that teachable moments should teach that character something, and I want that character to show what they've learned and apply that knowledge to new issues. And I don't want this to come suddenly in season 3 when it should have happened in season 1. I want natural growth over time.
Korra is a "Strong Female Character" that is full to bursting with "Strong" and "Female" but sorely lacking in "Character."
nahmsayin?
also mako sucks and ruins the show for me Kappa
Great post. I really appreciate you posting that.
I go out to get some coffee and come back to this masterpiece of a post. To be honest, I thought we'd have to struggle long and hard to get a definitive answer on the issue, but you really hit the nail on the head here.
I don't suppose you could do a follow up on how you view Asami as a character representing women?
I like Korra. I just wish she was more interesting when she gets buck. And thought things through. There's hot headed, and then there's Korra.
I'm sorry. We can't be friends.
I was gonna say. Two of the most active posters in this community are female.
I'm sorry. We can't be friends.
I was gonna say. Two of the most active posters in this community are female.
Infinite Justice
Member
Great post.
It sucks for me because Korra is literally the only character I've gotten as far as representation goes... I don't think Korra is that bad but she definitely suffers from poor writing.
I've liked her so far in Book 3 though at least. She's definitely a step above other "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS"
Admiral Woofington
Member
We're posting Strong Female Characters now?
#Asami
#Asami
kidding
TacticalFox88
Banned
There's also the term "Strong Female CHaracter" itself.
Why can't we just have strong characters in general?
Why can't we just have strong characters in general?
TBH, I don't really know anyone's gender on this board. I make no assumptions.
But with regards to this discussion, it's just my own ignorance/inability to properly know what constitutes a good female character/representation. So it's nice to hear from someone of that gender their thoughts on this specific character, or what they think is a good representation etc.
Yeah...that Asami.
She was my favorite character coming out of Book 1.
Because most of them are straight white guys. Whereas minorities and women generally are token characters or pigeonholed into some stereotype. That's why people hold up the few examples of great characters that don't happen to be straight white guys because there's a dearth of representation in media of characters with agency who don't belong to the straight white guy demographic.
It's like, we all want it to get to the point where we don't have to say "great female character!" because there's plenty of great characters who are female and the general representation of the gender is not normally that of a cliched character with no agency or swagger. until that time though, people are on the hunt for better representation of their demographic and more variety in media.
I'm sure everyone here already knows that Asami is the light of my life, the fire of my loins, etc.
That being said, as much as I love her, she's not faring much better for similar reasons: the lack of agency, and then they don't flesh out her motivations.
The most glaring form of this is throughout basically the entirety of book 2, where her role and her storyline are hijacked to flesh out the male characters around her - Varrick and Mako. Asami is made the passenger in a plot about the safety and stability of the company that she inherited from her father. She's got the pieces in place to start her own personal journey, but that subplot isn't about her, really. It's about learning that Mako is a great detective, and about how he will go the distance to find out the truth, even if it's in conflict with the ideals of his job. That Mako, right?
Asami follows Mako to the triads and we don't get to see any form of resistance? She's just there to accompany him because Mako has an idea that these same types of people that killed Asami's mother - these same types of people that triggered the event that would allow Hiroshi's anger to fester for a decade and then blossom into a breed of hatred that burns so hot and so brightly that it blinds him as he attempts to crush and maim and mangle his daughter in his wife's (her mother!!!) name - have a way to help her company. We don't get to explore any kind of reluctance? She just follows? She accepts help from these people? She's as good as a lamp until she has to drive them both to safety in a scene that's reminiscent of literally every badass sidekick chick scene in every action movie ever (and then the sidekick chick goes on to be nothing short of worthless the rest of the movie until she has one more moment and then is worthless again). This is about Mako and his inhibitions about working with Triads after getting out of all of that gang shit and being directly at odds with it now that he's a cop.
Next she... breaks down or whatever, and the way they express her vulnerability is through having her kiss Mako, because Mako is representative of Resolve and Reason in this subplot, both things that Asami apparently lacks. And he rejects her, then takes her later, then kisses his ex in front of a group of people THEN IN FRONT OF HER, and she doesn't even say anything. Amazing! Amazing. And this is after Mako puts the pieces together and Asami is happily signing her life away to Varrick because she's desperate and dumb I guess, and can't realize that she's being played by this guy at all, even though Mako's practically been laying it out in front of her all this time.
I don't know if anyone remembers this, but when Mako went to jail and Bolin came to visit, Bolin told Mako that Asami couldn't bring herself to visit him in jail because it reminded her of her imprisoned father. Like... we couldn't explore that with Asami? Bolin had to speak for her on this? It was absolutely shameless. That scene alone is the tl;dr version of how they treat Asami Sato's role in her story. Amazing.
Asami is a female character that has an incredible journey she needs to conquer. She has to live up to the greatness of the Sato name, and yet she has to cut herself from it so that she may rebuild it in her image, not her father's. Like Katara, or even Zuko, her story intersects with the Avatar's, but is also independent of it. She has to learn to carve her own path and build a better Future [Industries]. But she can't, because she has to take a backseat first to Mako, and then to Varrick, who essentially usurps her role as the engineer. She plays second fiddle to him. It'll be a miracle if we get to see Asami Sato, CEO of Future Industries, whose father was an inventor and innovator and likely trained Asami most of her life to take on this role someday (but not so soon, since she's a baby in corporate years), invent anything. And we don't need to. Because Varrick does that! But she can be relegated to Appa-tier transportation without the Appa-tier affection. And I guess she can fight or something, but she's not going to get put in the vicinity of any real danger (unlike Sokka), lest she be willing to die a quick death. You know, like when the writers fridged Asami's mother.
Basically, I wouldn't point to either Korra or Asami as positive female role models because of how weakly they're written in the context of the story. Asami is slightly ahead though, if only for the fact that she respects Korra enough as a person to not make a move on Mako while they're still together.
This kinda ties into why I don't like Mako. He weakens Korra's story and he weakens Asami's story. Too many moments of greatness that either of them could have are wasted on his character. Amon compliments the bending of ONE PERSON the entire time he was active in the show, and who does he give that compliment to? Mako. SHAMELESS.
That's why I'm always mad about him in here even when he does things that are completely innocuous.
edit: omfg this post is so long and its about a cartoon character im a mess
I'm sure everyone here already knows that Asami is the light of my life, the fire of my loins, etc.
That being said, as much as I love her, she's not faring much better for similar reasons: the lack of agency, and then they don't flesh out her motivations.
The most glaring form of this is throughout basically the entirety of book 2, where her role and her storyline are hijacked to flesh out the male characters around her - Varrick and Mako. Asami is made the passenger in a plot about the safety and stability of the company that she inherited from her father. She's got the pieces in place to start her own personal journey, but that subplot isn't about her, really. It's about learning that Mako is a great detective, and about how he will go the distance to find out the truth, even if it's in conflict with the ideals of his job. That Mako, right?
Asami follows Mako to the triads and we don't get to see any form of resistance? She's just there to accompany him because Mako has an idea that these same types of people that killed Asami's mother - these same types of people that triggered the event that would allow Hiroshi's anger to fester for a decade and then blossom into a breed of hatred that burns so hot and so brightly that it blinds him as he attempts to crush and maim and mangle his daughter in his wife's (her mother!!!) name - have a way to help her company. We don't get to explore any kind of reluctance? She just follows? She accepts help from these people? She's as good as a lamp until she has to drive them both to safety in a scene that's reminiscent of literally every badass sidekick chick scene in every action movie ever (and then the sidekick chick goes on to be nothing short of worthless the rest of the movie until she has one more moment and then is worthless again). This is about Mako and his inhibitions about working with Triads after getting out of all of that gang shit and being directly at odds with it now that he's a cop.
Next she... breaks down or whatever, and the way they express her vulnerability is through having her kiss Mako, because Mako is representative of Resolve and Reason in this subplot, both things that Asami apparently lacks. And he rejects her, then takes her later, then kisses his ex in front of a group of people THEN IN FRONT OF HER, and she doesn't even say anything. Amazing! Amazing. And this is after Mako puts the pieces together and Asami is happily signing her life away to Varrick because she's desperate and dumb I guess, and can't realize that she's being played by this guy at all, even though Mako's practically been laying it out in front of her all this time.
I don't know if anyone remembers this, but when Mako went to jail and Bolin came to visit, Bolin told Mako that Asami couldn't bring herself to visit him in jail because it reminded her of her imprisoned father. Like... we couldn't explore that with Asami? Bolin had to speak for her on this? It was absolutely shameless. That scene alone is the tl;dr version of how they treat Asami Sato's role in her story. Amazing.
Asami is a female character that has an incredible journey she needs to conquer. She has to live up to the greatness of the Sato name, and yet she has to cut herself from it so that she may rebuild it in her image, not her father's. Like Katara, or even Zuko, her story intersects with the Avatar's, but is also independent of it. She has to learn to carve her own path and build a better Future [Industries]. But she can't, because she has to take a backseat first to Mako, and then to Varrick, who essentially usurps her role as the engineer. She plays second fiddle to him. It'll be a miracle if we get to see Asami Sato, CEO of Future Industries, whose father was an inventor and innovator and likely trained Asami most of her life to take on this role someday (but not so soon, since she's a baby in corporate years), invent anything. And we don't need to. Because Varrick does that! But she can be relegated to Appa-tier transportation without the Appa-tier affection. And I guess she can fight or something, but she's not going to get put in the vicinity of any real danger (unlike Sokka), lest she be willing to die a quick death. You know, like when the writers fridged Asami's mother.
Basically, I wouldn't point to either Korra or Asami as positive female role models because of how weakly they're written in the context of the story. Asami is slightly ahead though, if only for the fact that she respects Korra enough as a person to not make a move on Mako while they're still together.
This kinda ties into why I don't like Mako. He weakens Korra's story and he weakens Asami's story. Too many moments of greatness that either of them could have is wasted on his character. Amon compliments the bending of ONE PERSON the entire time he was active in the show, and who does he give that compliment to? Mako. SHAMELESS.
That's why I'm always mad about him in here even when he does things that are completely innocuous.
edit: omfg this post is so long and its about a cartoon character im a mess
this is... the part when i completely agree.
Korra loses her bending.
Gets sad and reaches her lowest point.
Deus ex Aang appears, (somehow) restores her bending and allows her to go in and out of the AS at will.
Everything is wrapped up quickly in a bow because Bryke didn't know if they were going to get another season.
The entire situation was resolved, meh, Amon was a dude, he wasn't anyone important, he was a random waterbender with little to no relevance, if it wasn't for Tarrlok he wouldn't even need the mask.
Korra's problem was solved without her actually learning anything, she got emo and she got everything back. The exact same ability and status that she abused through the season. She didn't grow as a person, she didn't know what it felt like to help someone without being the avatar and she was still an air-bender which is better than most people.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Not to mention she doesn't get airbending for the whole season, then all of a sudden she does it once and it's all "I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING"
Mental Atrophy
Banned
I do that all the time whats wrong with long posts about cartoons :/
But great points all around. The writers keep trying to make Mako work, but they don't seem to realize how much of a drain he is on other characters. I like Verrick, but he shouldn't be an ally of LoK, specifically for the reason you mentioned.
Thanks for replying.
So many people wanted S2 to be about Korra having only airbending and having to find out how to recover her bending. And yeah, that probably would've matched up great with the whole harmonic convergence plotline. Nick really should've let Bryke have 3-4 seasons from the start.
The problem here is that you are REALLY late to the party. We already had discussions on that episode. No, we had entire dissertations that analyzed, dissected, broke down, and empirically proved that Endgame blows chunks. Others have given you bullet points, mentioning events that happened, but that alone doesn't get into the bones of why it's bad so they're unlikely to convince you, if you are willing to be convinced at all.
Look, I managed to track down my first evar write up for why the episode was bad. I'm not willing to discuss it anymore, but you can look at the discussion that happened if you like.
But if you want to like it despite that? You know what, I don't have the will or inclination to argue with you about it today. Someone on the internet is wrong, but just this once, I will let that go.
Edit: I mostly focus on how the Deus ex machina hurts Korra's character development, but there are also the glaring continuity contradictions that happen due to it. A few pages back in this thread, I also talk about how the previous episode completely fucks the pacing by effectively altering the nature of the main conflict in the second to last episode. Plus the utter stupidity of Korra's "Lets just basically accuse him in front of his followers!" plan. And...
Look, the episode was just really, obviously, stupidly bad. If I don't stop, I'll be here for the next 3 hours.
Icyflamez96
Member
The season 1 finale was freaking amazing in my opinion.
Shard with the MVP post of that thread:
Wait, I lied:
Damn. No more live reactions.
Doesn't it make it worse? When they wrote Book 1, they thought they only had one season yet they still tackled a complicated topic as well put Korra in such dire straits. The ending undermines the rest of the season with how quickly and completely everything is wrapped up.
Look man, its just my opinion. I also felt like the episode was shitty, at the time. Re watching it has given me a different outlook on it.
There's no "obviously" about it.
Since Nick.com finally put the episodes online, I've finally been able to watch them. I came in with low expectations and after 7 episodes, I'm really enjoying this season. Rather entertaining. Really feels similar to season 1, but slightly better, even in some ways like original series. Really liking the new plot, characters, episode flow.
Infinite Justice
Member
it brought up everything wrong in an attempt to tie up that shitshow with a nice bow tie
big bad enemy with a interesting goal? he was just doing it for the lulz
slimy asshole who had been a thorn in republic city side but seemed interesting? last minute reveal to be the brother of big bad with some horseshit sap story.
big bad this close to winning? nope went full dumbass to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by being baited by a temperamental avatar with no proof.
MC almost loses? in the final hour airbending appears to save the day even though she was no where near "spiritual" at that point.
MC loses her powers? she just pouts a bit and Aang appears to give it back plus more (basically becoming the thing some people didn't like in the ending of his saga aka lion turtle).
i'll leaving out the shipping stuff since those fans can mull that over.
everything felt like they had to place a band aid everywhere but even then it was applied incorrectly. The biggest loss for me was the Amon stuff since it was fucking terrible but the suicide was surprising mainly due to nick letting that fly on a saturday morning slot.
Infinite Justice
Member
Honestly, what else is even left for Asami at this point? I really really really know I sound like a broken record, but it seems so obvious to me that her only future plot and development (lol if you can even call it that), will revolve around Mako. Such a fuckin mess.
Yeah. Although I still think that on paper, Amon's backstory could have worked. It would have still been disappointing (given the way the character was presented, and how it undermines the Equalist movement as a deeper/complex plot point). It was just terrible how they shoehorned his entire backstory in 10 min of exposition in the finale. It really gave you no time to process it. And really, it just completely undercut the character, the movement, all in one swoop.
I mean, Amon could have been motivated by revenge (or rather, his hatred for his fathers obsession with bending ruining his family. And then wanting to get rid of bending). I mean, that pretty much was his motivation (at least that's how I saw it). But it was just soooo poorly done. So instead of feeling for Amon, or seeing how he tied his past to the equalist movement, the guy just came off as a big fraud.
The other obvious issue is the movement itself. The writers never wanted to explore it (the actual social issues).
But for me, the finale's worst moments is just the ending itself (how Korra has everything fixed). I'll always be let down with Amon's plot, but on some level I can kind of deal with it (because I see it more as a failure to flesh it out vs. an outright terrible plot point). It's more of a disappointment, because it had so much more potential. But I can't forgive the Korra tear bending shit. Nope.
Yeah. Although I still think that on paper, Amon's backstory could have worked. It would have still been disappointing (given the way the character was presented, and how it undermines the Equalist movement as a deeper/complex plot point). It was just terrible how they shoehorned his entire backstory in 10 min of exposition in the finale. It really gave you no time to process it. And really, it just completely undercut the character, the movement, all in one swoop.
I mean, Amon could have been motivated by revenge (or rather, his hatred for his fathers obsession with bending ruining his family. And then wanting to get rid of bending). I mean, that pretty much was his motivation (at least that's how I saw it). But it was just soooo poorly done. So instead of feeling for Amon, or seeing how he tied his past to the equalist movement, the guy just came off as a big fraud.
The other obvious issue is the movement itself. The writers never wanted to explore it (the actual social issues).
But for me, the finale's worst moments is just the ending itself (how Korra has everything fixed). I'll always be let down with Amon's plot, but on some level I can kind of deal with it (because I see it more as a failure to flesh it out vs. an outright terrible plot point). It's more of a disappointment, because it had so much more potential. But I can't forgive the Korra tear bending shit. Nope.
Fantastic post
It's such a shame that the writing for Korra has been less than stellar so far. At least Book 3 has been a definite improvement for most of the characters in the show. It's just kind frustrating at times at how poorly they handle quite a few of the characters(both male & female) in the show knowing what Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko are capable of especially after the struggle they went through to convince Nick to make the show
Yoo Jae-myung talking about how ncik suspended production because the main character was a girl
I still really hate what they did to Lin in Book 2 though
Infinite Justice
Member
just read that Asami post and...damn :/
So Nicks gone and revamped their site I'm assuming in preparation for Friday http://www.nick.com/legend-of-korra/
Shpping polls also now, so you can finally vote for who you want to ship the most so that's something I suppose
Seems to be more designed for tablet use rather than a desktop and kinda annoying how the age rating doesn't leave the video (its placement is not the best)
Shpping polls also now, so you can finally vote for who you want to ship the most so that's something I suppose
Hulu is going to be a couple weeks behind everything else
http://michaeldantedimartino.tumblr.com/post/93232995940/watch-legend-of-korra-season-3-episodes-online-the
...shortly after. I wonder what that will actually be. =/
Infinite Justice
Member
this thread is gonna be interesting with the earlier premiere time
"Which ship do you want to sail most in Book Three?" LOL
It's like they know their fanbase.
Really, I wished they used the worthless romance time for actually character enhancement. I rather just have all the characters date a random person that are never seen and probably never named so we can just skip the garbage. Not everyone's love interest have to be important to the plot, people can just date regular everyday persons.
Romance had been handled well this season. Especially after rewatching the "I love you, Korra" scene in Endgame and the awkward kiss scene in season 2 (holy shit, Asami just stood there). Opal and Bolin have some heart to them and the bullshit love triangle of yore is used so far for jokes and to bring Korra and Asami closer together as friends.
Bolin's romance is just inoffensive, nothing great, to be honest the series never really had that great of romance, and most of the couples were just two people that liked one another. Hell, it's sad that the most interesting couple that actually had some growth between one another is Zuko and Mai.
That being said, since romance was such a small part of the original series, it wasn't a big deal.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Zuko and Mai were pretty good. I think he didn't end up with her at the end though. So probably the most realistic view of teen couples.
Aang and katara had plenty of growth season 2 and onward when she started seeing him as just not a friend.
Korra has been full of horrible relationships where the main drive is how much drama can they provide. Which is its such a shame the most enjoyable relationship is the one of Bolin and Opal. It's just as vanilla as it gets with two people who like each other and do flirty stuff with each other. Which imho is a bit too cringe inducing but I'm at least glad Bolin found someone who he might actually have a long relationship with.
Aang and katara had plenty of growth season 2 and onward when she started seeing him as just not a friend.
Korra has been full of horrible relationships where the main drive is how much drama can they provide. Which is its such a shame the most enjoyable relationship is the one of Bolin and Opal. It's just as vanilla as it gets with two people who like each other and do flirty stuff with each other. Which imho is a bit too cringe inducing but I'm at least glad Bolin found someone who he might actually have a long relationship with.
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