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LOST 06.15: "Across The Sea" (You Can't Really Balance An Egg On The Equinox Edition)
- Thread starter BenjaminBirdie
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Panda Bear
Banned
That's a fair story. But it doesn't explain why the hieroglyphics show the Smoke Monster or why Ben thought he could summon the Monster in the first place.oatmeal said:
Gotta say I agree.fireside said:
duckroll said:I read Dark Tower until the last book, and stopped reading because it became a piece of shit. I no longer gave a shit about any of the characters, or the story, because the final book itself was so bad. Book 4 was pretty awful too, I almost stopped reading right there.
It figures that Dalton would like King so much, since they share the same level of incompetence.
I haven't read the DT, I'd love to, it's just a huge undertaking.
I have read people talk about the ending like you, but I have read the same amount of people say the exact opposite.
It just stands to reason that you can't please everyone. LOST will split its fan base in half the same way.
Fortunately, I feel like I'm on the same page as the direction they're going. I'm open for it, baby.
I found it a little awkward seeing that the two kids grew up on the island, but their perspective of seeing things feel like they have been to other places before and know what is "normal" and what is "special" (of the things happening on the island). Like that magnetic scene, why would they find it strange? Their expectation of what is normal and what is not should be different than a normal person.
oatmeal said:
It's not really a huge undertaking. The books aren't even that long. The only problem is the pacing goes up and down. The first 3 books can be read really quickly because they're a fast read and move very quickly. The 4th book is SUPER slow and I almost quit out of boredom. The 5th and 6th books have fast portions and slow portions and they're much thicker novels by this point, but should take too long to read. Maybe a 2-3 days each. The final novel was so bad I quit before I got halfway.
Panda Bear said:
The Egyptian link is a reason why I don't think we have learned everything yet. Smokey predates the Jacob birth by a lot IMO (the drawings say so).
And Ben thought he could control it because he was the leader of the Others and he had been manipulated since he was a kid (seeing his mom on the island). He was the real long con.
fireside said:
It depends on what you think the story is. This whole Candidacy stuff has only come up recently (with the first time the word is mentioned being in "The Incident").
I think Darlton view this as a story of survivors of a circumstance far (FARRRR) beyond their control. Take it as a character drama, and I don't see how you could be disappointed.
Panda Bear
Banned
Actually if you think about it, the show itself can be seen as one long con. They lead us in with some fuck awesome character development in the first season, then they pepper on some mysteries and adventure to keep us hooked. Then after we've invested several years into the show they troll us in the last season with bullshit like a person not being given a name after having been alive for two thousand years. Gotta say, that shit is deep.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Someone peeing on you is hardly a con.
Panda Bear
Banned
When they get you to keep believing in them while they do it it is.Son of Godzilla said:
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
Just watched the ep, and I'm afraid to say I have to echo the disappointment of others in this thread - I gave an audible "ohforfuckssake" at the first glimpse of the light-filled hole (although I don't disagree with the premise, I just hate the way it was introduced).
Although it was kind of inevitable given that there's not really a good way to explain much of the shit they've been spinning all these years. I must say though, I really wish they'd never gone further back than say the fifties in the story. I like the idea of having evidence of 'ancient' islanders, but it was really never necessary to ever go there. For me, DHARMA was always the most interesting part of the story, and it's been a pretty sharp downhill slope since then. Oh well.
Oh, and this episode has continued Lost's pretty much unbroken run of a complete inability to handle accents. Seriously, what's up with that?
Although it was kind of inevitable given that there's not really a good way to explain much of the shit they've been spinning all these years. I must say though, I really wish they'd never gone further back than say the fifties in the story. I like the idea of having evidence of 'ancient' islanders, but it was really never necessary to ever go there. For me, DHARMA was always the most interesting part of the story, and it's been a pretty sharp downhill slope since then. Oh well.
Oh, and this episode has continued Lost's pretty much unbroken run of a complete inability to handle accents. Seriously, what's up with that?
Almost everything the main characters have done in their entire lives has been the result of Jacob manipulating things so that they would end up that way so that they would wind up on the island and one of them would replace him. How can I possibly care about anything when the motivation of the "man behind the curtain" of every character is so stupid?oatmeal said:
I'm not the fastest reader, and I just bought The Stand so...there's that.duckroll said:
I'll read it eventually.
seady said:
Yeah this is interesting to think of. It made me think of the children of the island and goes back to some earlier theories about the children of the island.
Basically, the others wanted the children because they could be indoctrinated quite easily (which is true) into believing in the magic of the island. Adults are a little trickier to convince (See Roger Linus), so kids are the way to go.
They kind of got away from that, though after Walt left and whatnot.
As for the magnetism, I think they would know that knives don't normally bend mid flight and go the opposite direction and stick to rock. So I'm sure even to them that is curious.
Here's a thought, as well...
The children of the island seemingly have gifts, and I wonder if the island is granting them these powers, or if in their indoctrination, they BELIEVE they have these powers and can then use them.
See WALT and 'seeing in his minds eye, throw the knife' for example. He was throwing like a pussy until Locke opened up his mind and he believed he could do it. Walt was able to will the rain to stop because he wanted to find his dog. Etc.
I wonder if this was a storyline they were originally going to follow.
Perhaps, and excuse the lame comparison, it's like Space Jam. Where Jordan is bound by the rules of the real world only because it's what he's used to. But when he's able to...oh fuck, I'm describing the Matrix.
...
Perhaps, it's like The Matrix. Where Neo is bound by the rules of the real world only because it's what he's used ot. But when he's able to open up his mind, he can take control of shit.
Maybe that's why Ethan was so strong, he was taught he could be strong at a young age, and he was able to because he was a believer.
This certainly fits with the MAN OF SCIENCE, MAN OF FAITH theme.
I wonder if that's where they were going originally with the story...before taking a tangent when Walt turned 40.
oatmeal said:
See this is where I can completely disagree. I -do- take this show as a character drama. In fact, that has all the show been to me since day 1. I love the characters, I love the flashbacks, flashforwards, flashsideways, etc as long as the character drama is good. I don't really care if GREAT MYSTERIES ARE REVEALED, as long as I can see the characters I like doing stuff which is entertaining and fun.
Sawyer and Miles in a what if cop drama? Awesome.
Ben and Locke as school teachers with Alex as a student? Great stuff.
Locke being tricked into working for a drug cartel? Intriguing.
Sawyer's self-destructive life as a conman seeking for revenge? Amazing.
The reason I love Lost is that they managed to take all these little stories which are largely episodic, and match them with on-island drama which is relevant to the character's development at that point of time. This is why season after season, I loved watched Lost.
Now, the show is becoming less and less of a good character drama. The on-island stuff is getting really dumb. And the new characters being explored in the mythos episodes are not compelling. How can a character drama be disappointing? When it is a poor character drama. This episode is another great example of how I feel the character drama aspect of Lost is being sacrificed way too much this season in favor of exploring answers and mysteries, but not giving good enough answers to these mysteries. So then they fail on both fronts: character drama fans are not pleased, mystery/mythos fans get annoyed.
Panda Bear
Banned
Oh and I hope that whatever faith anyone had in the promise that the flash-sideways revelation will blow you away has been crushed with the way they handled this episode. I began to lose faith in the writers after the Incident and I had trouble believing them when they promised the flash-sideways stuff would have an awesome conclusion. After having come this far in the season I don't doubt that the flash-sideways revelation will be something I didn't foresee, but I have this odd feeling that rather than blow me away it will just make me vomit.
Panda Bear
Banned
I just see the name thing as a perfect analogy of the shitty way the writers have dealt with mysteries. They really had no idea the entire time with a lot of these answers. I mean they couldn't even think of a name for a main fucking character for Christ's sake. "I only thought of one name..." How insulting.Mifune said:
duckroll said:
I don't know, to be honest. No one does at this point.
But the fact that MIB has taken on Locke's tendencies and knows his thoughts leads me to believe that just because he looks like Locke, doesn't mean he is. Locke is dead. MIB is dead. Smokey took their souls (as MIB said in Ab Aeterno). MIB was surprisingly candid in that episode...he flat out said it.
I mean, he took Yemi's memories and manipulated Eko with him (or tried to)...and did the same with Alex last season.
I think he wants off the island because he's evil and doesn't want to be contained. Just as Jacob said.
Fuck me, it's basically everyone against me right now. I'm having fun, though. this is the most inspired I've been in a LOST talk here before. But all the east coasters are fast asleep...and I should be sleeping. I'm laying in bed at a Fairfield Inn at Laguna Beach with an early call time.
infinityBCRT
Member
K2Valor said:
Honestly, I see parallels with some of the mythology in Lost and some of the beliefs in Islam (and likely with other older religions/cultures as well).
Quran said:
I've also seen places where souls are referred to as light or having light. So in terms of light and it being the place of birth, death, rebirth, LOST doesn't seem to stray to far from that idea.
Then theres the smoke monster which since the start of the show some people have thought it to be a form of a jinn. Jinn are basically another form of intelligent life in the Islamic tradition. Whereas humans are made of clay, Jinn are made of smokeless fire and can make themselves invisible to humans and can take many different forms including appearing as smoke.
Perhaps when MiB was thrown into the cave of life, he was reborn as a jinn?
Mifune said:
I don't think it's so much that anyone gives a shit if he has a name. It's just sort of hilarious that they went out of the way to not give him a name and the "reveal" is that his birth mother only thought of a name for one kid. MysteriousWomanWithNoName had no qualms about KILLING the birth mother and lying to the children, but she couldn't bother to name the one without a name? Seriously? It's not a problem with the story, but a problem with how it's presented and written. Just seems lame.
Panda Bear
Banned
At least if the show's ending turns out to be complete shit, which it is looking like now, we still have some really good character-centric episodes. White Rabbit, Walkabout, Flashes Before Your Eyes, The Constant, Greatest Hits, etc.
Sounds to me that you got yourself 5 and a half seasons of amazing TV. That's not badduckroll said:
I disagree about the on island stuff being compelling, though. I think both the on and off island stuff right now is great. Desmond doing his thing is fascinating to me, opening the eyes of everyone...very interesting.
And The Candidate was some great drama. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.
Really, none of us have any clue where it will go. But it sounds like you have enjoyed the character drama well into this season, so if a few recent episodes have soured your experience, it is entirely possible that it could reverse.
Also,
UraMallas said:
See? duckroll and Ura disagreeing.
Can't please everyone.
UraMallas said:
It's boring ass shit. I don't give a fuck about young Roland, and the book added nothing to the story really. It was a total waste of time to read and had a ton of crappy genre troupes which came with the "tale of a young knight and his best friends" coming of age stories.
ckohler said:
So the dead taught him how to play the board game too? There was no indication he saw any dead people then, and yet he just knew the rules.
Zen said:
I can see this being number 2 behind LA X. It aired less than 10 hours ago and it's over 2000. That's pretty amazing.
And it's been fun for me since I'm the only pro-current LOSTian online right now.NAMELESS AND BB GET THE FUCK IN HERE!!!!
The finale will likely trump them all, though.
LA X had time (and 2 episodes) to build up steam and discuss all week. It will be hard to top.
duckroll said:
I just wanted to :lol at "Boring ASS shit"
And secondly,
His mother gave him the game, and he created the rules for it. Jacob said that MIB was the one mommy wanted to take over her spot, so it can be surmised that she was trying to train him to create and moderate his own set of rules.
oatmeal said:Sounds to me that you got yourself 5 and a half seasons of amazing TV. That's not bad
Nah, it's definitely less than that. The first arc in Season 3 was wretched too. I don't even see how this matters. I'm not sure how it relates to the feeling that this season is really going down the dogshit hole for many people, and being the final season, it seems to be going out with lulz rather than wow. That's not good.
Everybody keeps saying MiB doesn't have a name but I think it's much more likely that they just didn't tell us his name. You can call that a cop out but, logically, the boy had a name. You have to be called something otherwise you couldn't function in a society. Even if your society is only three people, you have to be distinguishable. So, sure, his name wasn't given to us but he has a name. My guess is Adam or Aaron. But it won't ever really matter to me unless it resolves some big plot mystery. Otherwise, who gives an eff?
Punchy4486
Banned
So basically, the island is the Ark of the Covenant, containing the power and glory of God, or the source of all creation. That makes MiB the Nazis, and Jacob is Indiana Jones.
And, to mix Indy metaphors, Jacob goes on to become the Templar from Last Crusade, and is looking for his replacement to guard the Grail/Smokey/the island/God. I think part of the reason Smokey must be contained is because he knows too much, and will try to share and spread that power or Source to the rest of the world...kind of a Garden of Eden type situation...
Also, MiB didn't die, he became Smokey. If you want to see that as possession, fine, but he's still alive according to the show's internal logic. I think he was just...tainted or infected by approaching something he was never meant to see (willingly or not, though he definitely had the desire to).
And, to mix Indy metaphors, Jacob goes on to become the Templar from Last Crusade, and is looking for his replacement to guard the Grail/Smokey/the island/God. I think part of the reason Smokey must be contained is because he knows too much, and will try to share and spread that power or Source to the rest of the world...kind of a Garden of Eden type situation...
Also, MiB didn't die, he became Smokey. If you want to see that as possession, fine, but he's still alive according to the show's internal logic. I think he was just...tainted or infected by approaching something he was never meant to see (willingly or not, though he definitely had the desire to).
Exclamation-One
Member
Panda Bear
Banned
You have a lot more faith in the writers than I do. I hope you're right though.UraMallas said:
oatmeal said:
That's not how I see it. Jacob simply assumed that he made up the rules, but it doesn't seem like he did. He honestly seemed to just know how to play it. The way it was written and directed, I don't see any evidence that he was learning how to do anything from ghosts. It seemed like his mother was the only ghost he ever saw. Everything else indicated he actually had some ability to know how things work. Which would also explain stuff like.... C4 and digital watches! :lol
oatmeal said:
Of course it's my opinion. What else would it be? You're the one defending it to the extend of sawing that if <insert conditions>, then you cannot see how anyone would be disappointed. I pointed out how that was incorrect. Speak for yourself and not others.
infinityBCRT
Member
duckroll said:
The book was a lot like Ab Aeterno in that it gave a story away from the main story but it added so much to the mythos. By that time in DT I was ready to learn about what made Roland of Gilead. It was also brilliantly paced and had very fun characters. Rhea of Coos especially. Now Song of Susannah... that was an abortion of a book.duckroll said:
(Pun!)
duckroll said:
1. I thought MIB TOLD Jacob that he made up the rules. I'm almost positive...! If he did, and I think he did... there's your answer.
The dude has been on the island for thousands of years, he has fought many a forces, I don't think it's too far fetched that he can acquire the knowledge (he can scan people remember) to build a bomb.
2. I can see how people can be disappointed. I am fully aware that I am the only one posting right now that is fully on board with what they're doing. That's fine with me. It really doesn't bother me if you're not enjoying it, I'm just enjoying talking about it at length. I never get to have these long discussions normally, and it's nice.
Even if it is just me trying to defend against some of your positions (ones that, IMO, are defensible due to you either not getting it or not caring).
I don't mean that as a slight.
Jex
Member
So, in essence. MIB just 'knows things', because he's a walking plot-device?
Man without name and Jacob are rasied by a crazy lady who randomly kills innocent people for no reason.
And the secret of the island is a generic yellow glow? Superb.
"Hey guys, we put some rocks and bodies here in Season 1 cus' we totally planned this show out"
Man without name and Jacob are rasied by a crazy lady who randomly kills innocent people for no reason.
And the secret of the island is a generic yellow glow? Superb.
"Hey guys, we put some rocks and bodies here in Season 1 cus' we totally planned this show out"
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