SpeedingUptoStop said:

Okay, so I forgot about this.


Still though, when has Jacob ever saved anyone? ....Ever? Illana, maybe? John Locke, possibly?

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gdt5016 said:

What am I supposed to be seeing?

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Dead said:

btw, saw this gif earlier of MIB falling in the water

I can't believe I never noticed it when watching The Candidate

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gdt5016 said:

What am I supposed to be seeing?

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Arment said:

He's trying to save everyone right now I think.

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Dead said:

All the black crap spewing out of Locke as he falls in the water

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Dead said:

btw, saw this gif earlier of MIB falling in the water

I can't believe I never noticed it when watching The Candidate

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Dead said:

All the black crap spewing out of Locke as he falls in the water

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Blader5489 said:

So here's my list of things I want answered. Whether it be on the show, in the upcoming encyclopedia, or an off-hand remark in podcast or interview, I will not be completely satisfied without answers to these mysteries:

--The purpose of Jacob's mission to prove humanity is good

--Why it is so dangerous for MIB to leave the island

--The ghost in the cabin

--What the "magic box" is

--The purpose of the flashsideways

--More elaboration on Christian - not all of his appearances could have been Smokey (without creating unforgivably huge plotholes), so what was up with Christian?

--Walt

--Illana's backstory

--Eloise Hawking's omniscience

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Drealmcc0y said:

How about the scene in the variable when faraday is talking to widmore and hes all crying and all dumb from losing his memory. My god I have to skip that every time i rewatch.

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SpeedingUptoStop said:

Okay, so I forgot about this.


Still though, when has Jacob ever saved anyone? ....Ever? Illana, maybe? John Locke, possibly?

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Drealmcc0y said:

Charlie: No offence mate, but if there was one person on this island I had to put absolute faith in to SAVE US ALL, it would be John Locke

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Drealmcc0y said:

A quote for you

Jack: "What do you think his story is?"

Charlie: "Locke? Guys a freak of nature, highly disturbed. Chances are he probably killed all his mates at the post office the day his mummy forgot to put a cookie in his lunch tin. Thats my first impression anyway, then he saved my life."

Jack: "So you trust him?"

Charlie: No offence mate, but if there was one person on this island I had to put absolute faith in to SAVE US ALL, it would be John Locke

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Drealmcc0y said:

A quote for you

Jack: "What do you think his story is?"

Charlie: "Locke? Guys a freak of nature, highly disturbed. Chances are he probably killed all his mates at the post office the day his mummy forgot to put a cookie in his lunch tin. Thats my first impression anyway, then he saved my life."

Jack: "So you trust him?"

Charlie: No offence mate, but if there was one person on this island I had to put absolute faith in to SAVE US ALL, it would be John Locke

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Dead said:

and then John Locke punched the shit out of Charlie

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gdt5016 said:

I wonder if Jacob had like a wardrobe. Like a closet cave full of self made tweed sandals, those brown pants, and that white shirt.


Jack's gonna need something to wear in the finale.

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Dead said:

and then John Locke punched the shit out of Charlie

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threenote said:

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MrCheez said:

Which still seems so out of character for him. Hate that moment

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Zeliard said:

Ah, the innocence of Season 1.

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MrCheez said:

Which still seems so out of character for him. Hate that moment

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Zeliard said:

Look at this fucking candidate.

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cyclonekruse said:

Here's my list of questions I want answers to (some overlap with your list):

--A lot to do with the cabin (where the white ash came from before Jacob burned, whom Locke heard, etc.)
--What the ghosts are up to (they seem to be nudging things in a certain direction)
--Why it's so bad for Smokie to leave
--Why Jacob can leave the island seemingly at will
--Illana's backstory, as well
--Walt's/Aaron's specialness
--Who got shot in the outrigger

I didn't include the significance of the flashsideways just because I'm certain that will get explained before the show's done. My list was more things that I have doubts about in terms of getting answers in the remaining episodes. But like you said, I'm okay if some of this isn't answered within the actual narrative of the show on TV. If we get answers in bonus features, podcasts, or whatever, I'll be happy for the most part.

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Arment said:

What? How is it out of character?

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Full Recovery said:

Rose, Bernard, Sun, Claire, and Jin are all bottom of the barrel actors.

"SOS"
WHERES MY BAAYYABEEEE?! CHARLIE!?
Have you seen Jin?!

etc.

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Jak140 said:

Flocke has explosive diarrhea?

EDIT: Actually everyone on the island probably does. A steady diet of unripe mangoes can't be good for your constitution.

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brandonh83 said:

I just rewatched the episode after initially being only lukewarm to it because I was sure it was going to hand out answers like candy. But you know, I think we got something even better than answers. We got context. I think it's pretty great that a lot of elements that we already knew about were finally given some more depth here. For instance the electromagnetism aspect of the island, I was sure that it was only going to be of scientific interest and not really related to some of the bigger mythos of the island but now I'm convinced that the EM is merely a byproduct of something we don't know about yet and that's pretty awesome. How they ended up relating EM mumbo-jumbo to Jacob's backstory was great and gives that aspect a lot more substance than just "oh cool there's a lot of electromagnetism on the island... and?" Exactly. Until now, for me, the EM stuff was always just cool, but I could never entirely figure out why it mattered. To me, that's a pretty big answer. They didn't tell us what the EM is coming from; as I said I think there's some force within the island that generates the EM. The EM is only part of the puzzle.

I also loved how many similar things were prevalent on the island way back when even before Oceanic 815, hell, Dharma. The fact that there were "others." That there were villages. People hunting boars. People playing board games on the beach. People digging in the ground trying to extract the source of the electromagnetism and harness its power. The ship wreckage in the water in the intro mirrors the plane crash in a way. A pregnant woman gets stranded on the island from said wreckage (funny how the names Claire and Claudia are similar, not that I think anything of it really but it's cool). There are also a lot of little subtle things that may have weight, or may not. For instance Blacky was told that he was "special" and that is an idea that many a character on the show has toyed around with. Locke thinks he was brought there for a special purpose. Ben thought he was special because he could summon electrozilla and was in, albeit indirect, contact with Jacob. There may be more I'm forgetting.

I'd like to talk about the Mother character a bit more too. I found it interesting that, before Claudia had the second child, Mother seemed to have no intent on killing her. Only when she gave birth to twins did it spark in her mind, hey, this could be my ticket right here. After all, she said she got to the island by "accident" but it's obvious to me that whatever protector the island may have had even before her led her there, just as Oceanic 815 was led there, just as Richard's ship and the vessel Claudia was on. This is pretty evident stuff, I mean I'm not acting like I just uncovered the episode's biggest secrets here but I do think it showed us just how far this goes back and how epic the mythology really is. Mother also could have been lying, I guess, about being on the island by accident just to cover her own ass and she may very well be the original protector. But I somehow doubt it. Sayid's "It's got to be you, Jack" now resonates with me in a way it didn't before.

Finally, the episode did a big part in establishing why Jacob brings candidates to the island. In Ab Aeterno he told Richard but at that point we hadn't met the Mother character. We hadn't seen the conflict between Jacob and Gary over the others, and Jacob's interest in the good and the bad in people. Now we know where that comes from. That's an answer. There's a bunch of stuff we already knew, but this episode dials back far enough for us to get a better picture concerning the "why." We saw how Jacob took the reigns as protector of the island and I liked how we found out how the previous protector passes the torch along. Another answer, though perhaps not one anyone was looking for. But we got it anyway. Who's complaining?

The point I'm trying to make is that I kind of see how the writers are going to give our answers to us: very indirectly. This episode, I feel, is a serious warmup to the finale. They're going to tell us stuff, absolutely, but it's going to be in that way that you don't quite understand but you feel as though the more you think about ideas and thematics, the more you have an understanding of it. Many are poking fun at Janney's line "your questions will only lead to more questions" and there are posters in this thread who are defending that with good logic and I happen to agree. Even if they flat out answered something, more questions will only spawn from it. They have to draw a line, and abide by it. If they don't, the rabbit hole will only grow deeper and none of us would ever be satisfied. What we have to do is watch the story unfold and appreciate what information we get before the end, and warm up to that. If not we'll just sit around bitching that they didn't know what they were doing and that there was no clear narrative path and this and that but I've found that thinking on a level beyond just simple clear-cut explanations is the way to go. Like I said when I first watched the episode, I was disappointed just as many of you were, but after I knew what to expect and what not to expect it was easier for me to take what they do give us and try to connect more dots together rather than feasting on plate full of answers.

That would have been relatively boring in hindsight.

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Dead said:

Outrigger isnt getting answered. Lindelcuse already confirmed it.

The only sensible explanation is that it was Illanas crew. So at least its not a permanent plothole.

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brandonh83 said:

I just rewatched the episode after initially being only lukewarm to it because I was sure it was going to hand out answers like candy. But you know, I think we got something even better than answers. We got context. I think it's pretty great that a lot of elements that we already knew about were finally given some more depth here. For instance the electromagnetism aspect of the island, I was sure that it was only going to be of scientific interest and not really related to some of the bigger mythos of the island but now I'm convinced that the EM is merely a byproduct of something we don't know about yet and that's pretty awesome. How they ended up relating EM mumbo-jumbo to Jacob's backstory was great and gives that aspect a lot more substance than just "oh cool there's a lot of electromagnetism on the island... and?" Exactly. Until now, for me, the EM stuff was always just cool, but I could never entirely figure out why it mattered. To me, that's a pretty big answer. They didn't tell us what the EM is coming from; as I said I think there's some force within the island that generates the EM. The EM is only part of the puzzle.

I also loved how many similar things were prevalent on the island way back when even before Oceanic 815, hell, Dharma. The fact that there were "others." That there were villages. People hunting boars. People playing board games on the beach. People digging in the ground trying to extract the source of the electromagnetism and harness its power. The ship wreckage in the water in the intro mirrors the plane crash in a way. A pregnant woman gets stranded on the island from said wreckage (funny how the names Claire and Claudia are similar, not that I think anything of it really but it's cool). There are also a lot of little subtle things that may have weight, or may not. For instance Blacky was told that he was "special" and that is an idea that many a character on the show has toyed around with. Locke thinks he was brought there for a special purpose. Ben thought he was special because he could summon electrozilla and was in, albeit indirect, contact with Jacob. There may be more I'm forgetting.

I'd like to talk about the Mother character a bit more too. I found it interesting that, before Claudia had the second child, Mother seemed to have no intent on killing her. Only when she gave birth to twins did it spark in her mind, hey, this could be my ticket right here. After all, she said she got to the island by "accident" but it's obvious to me that whatever protector the island may have had even before her led her there, just as Oceanic 815 was led there, just as Richard's ship and the vessel Claudia was on. This is pretty evident stuff, I mean I'm not acting like I just uncovered the episode's biggest secrets here but I do think it showed us just how far this goes back and how epic the mythology really is. Mother also could have been lying, I guess, about being on the island by accident just to cover her own ass and she may very well be the original protector. But I somehow doubt it. Sayid's "It's got to be you, Jack" now resonates with me in a way it didn't before.

Finally, the episode did a big part in establishing why Jacob brings candidates to the island. In Ab Aeterno he told Richard but at that point we hadn't met the Mother character. We hadn't seen the conflict between Jacob and Gary over the others, and Jacob's interest in the good and the bad in people. Now we know where that comes from. That's an answer. There's a bunch of stuff we already knew, but this episode dials back far enough for us to get a better picture concerning the "why." We saw how Jacob took the reigns as protector of the island and I liked how we found out how the previous protector passes the torch along. Another answer, though perhaps not one anyone was looking for. But we got it anyway. Who's complaining?

The point I'm trying to make is that I kind of see how the writers are going to give our answers to us: very indirectly. This episode, I feel, is a serious warmup to the finale. They're going to tell us stuff, absolutely, but it's going to be in that way that you don't quite understand but you feel as though the more you think about ideas and thematics, the more you have an understanding of it. Many are poking fun at Janney's line "your questions will only lead to more questions" and there are posters in this thread who are defending that with good logic and I happen to agree. Even if they flat out answered something, more questions will only spawn from it. They have to draw a line, and abide by it. If they don't, the rabbit hole will only grow deeper and none of us would ever be satisfied. What we have to do is watch the story unfold and appreciate what information we get before the end, and warm up to that. If not we'll just sit around bitching that they didn't know what they were doing and that there was no clear narrative path and this and that but I've found that thinking on a level beyond just simple clear-cut explanations is the way to go. Like I said when I first watched the episode, I was disappointed just as many of you were, but after I knew what to expect and what not to expect it was easier for me to take what they do give us and try to connect more dots together rather than feasting on plate full of answers.

That would have been relatively boring in hindsight.

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threenote said:

(still reading it though)

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brandonh83 said:

MASSIVE WALL TEXT OF DOOM

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brandonh83 said:

The point I'm trying to make is that I kind of see how the writers are going to give our answers to us: very indirectly.

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thekad said:

So I just realized...lil' Jacob isn't dead? Because Sawyer saw him.

I don't know how the hell they're going to explain that without it being stupid.

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peppermints said:

I keep reading about this outrigger confusion, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about it other than hearing the word used in the show.

Could someone fill me in?

I swear, as good as this show is, sometime there's just too much stuff to keep track of. :lol

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oatmeal said:

Okay, I read 13 pages of this thread....don't have time for the other 6. I'm in bed writing this and only got 2 hours of sleep last night so forgive me if this sounds awkward...

My initial reaction to this episode was pretty bad. I was very disappointed with it. I'm on the west coast, so I didn't get to live blog with the rest of you, but I did read along with the thread on commercial breaks to get a general idea.

Not surprisingly, my opinion was dead on with 95% of you in here.

When the LOST came up at the end, I was pissed off. That Adam and Even stuff was bullshit. They said 40-50 years in "House of the Rising Sun" and unless there is some time muckery that is going to happen in the next two episodes (Fuck...only two more...) that explains it, it was bullshit.

I think they really fucked it up by not having Rose and Bernard die in there last year. Even if they just retired to the caves and then this season Jack and Hurley see them on their way to the lighthouse and figure it out...that would have been great. If that anagram "The Bones Of Nadlers May Lay Lost In Caves" was actually an answer to a season 6 reveal...that would be some pretty fucking epic foresight by Darlton. Alas, it was not to be. Clearly, to me, they left it open ended and this season decided to revisit it because they had a way to write it in.

Regardless...this episode.

I think the major backlash is all due to the fans. When rumors leaked out that no major cast were going to be in it (And screw the flashback hammer to the brain, that doesn't count), and that it was Jacob/MIB-centric, people started hypothesizing that it would be something that it wasn't meant to be.

This wasn't meant to be the story of how the island came to be. This wasn't the story of how the rules came into play, or how the Egyptians came to the island and built their many landmarks.

As the press release states, this episode was only to share the motives for MIB's current behavior. And really, that's exactly what it did.

Much like Ab Aeterno wasn't about all of the extenuating circumstances surrounding Richard Alpert, only how he got there and his initial dealings with the MIB and Jacob. This was only about the MIB's life leading up to him turning into the Smoke Monster.

Alright, so a couple of things.

1. Seeing this episode made me realize that I really love the main cast. As good as Titus and Mark were in their scenes together, their story isn't something I particularly wanted to see. After "The Candidate" last week, where we got to spend the episode with all of our favorites (sans Ben/Richard/Miles/Desmond) with the shocking conclusion and deaths of some favorite characters, I was ready for more of that story. The story of flight 815 and everything surrounding them is some incredibly compelling stuff and has created some of the greatest characters TV has ever had to offer.
2. After seeing this, and pre-maturely mourning the fall from grace that LOST just endured, I started to realize that the islands mythology really isn't all that important. In all honesty, as Darlton have said time and time again, this isn't about the island, it's about the characters. That's the story they're telling, and they're doing a fine job at it. This made me realize that, really, they don't need to show us everything about the island. The glimpses we got into the core mythology this episode (The 'light', which is clearly electromagnetic based) are really something that needs to be explored on its own. I'm sure Darlton have their reasons why things happen, but unless they shoehorn them in (which they tried to this episode), there really isn't a place for it in the show itself. Without getting a MIB info dump (ala The Architect), there really isn't a way to show the viewer the origins of the island, and the reasoning for everything.

This brought me to start thinking of the encyclopedia. I think this would have been a great place for Darlton to really explore and explain the mythology behind the island (or as much as they feel necessary). It keeps them from having to disappoint viewers by forcing something that doesn't belong or not forcing it, I guess. It allows them to tell the story that is most pertinent (flight 815), while leaving hints of what catalyst the island acts as. While some might say that it would be a cop out, I think it would be an interesting way to expand the life of the franchise past just it's show.

Darlton have done a lot of things like the ARG's, and the mobisodes, and whatnot to build on the foundation of the show. Stuff like the Valenzetti equation, while canon, never had a place in the timeline of the show itself. It's important, in that it helps explain certain things, but it doesn't really affect the losties. So who's to stop them from going into more depth elsewhere? Anyway, that's still not the point of this post.

While initially I was on the 'hate' side of the fence for where LOST was going, as I read more and more I started to fall over to BenjaminBirdie and co's side. Remember in the premiere this season when Locke told Jack that the airline didn't lose Jack's father? They only lost his body? That's what happened in this episode. Jacob killed his brother, and his body is still around, but he is not. As BB and co have been talking about, the smoke monster really does seem like something bigger than just MIB. It seems like this is something that predates Jacob and the mother. This is especially made evident by the Egyptian drawings of the smoke monster. It's clearly something that has been in the island for a long time, and perhaps Jacob's sacrifice of his own innocence led to it being allowed out of the 'light' cave.

I think everything that Jacob told Richard in Ab Aeterno was true. The island really is a cork. It's magnetic properties holds in evil, and evil incarnate is the smoke monster/MIB. It is bound to the island because of this powerful force on the island that is holding it back. It was contained inside that cave for a long time (Jacob's mother had clearly been around for a long time), corked in, if you will, and it wasn't until the body of someone special came floatin' through that it was able to escape again. Jacob knows this now and has made it his mission to keep the monster contained on the island.

This doesn't really jive with the Smoke Monster leaving the island, but I'm not sure how that works. I'm not even sure how Jacob can leave...but whatever. That's another topic altogether.

So while this cave of light seems to be some out of left field bullshit, it actually fits the theme LOST has been plugging away at. And it's not like this is the first time we've seen the light. We saw it in season 2 when Desmond turns the fail safe and we saw it in season 5 when the Losties flash through time. This is just the first time we've seen it contained in one area.

God I'm exhausted. I'm sure this whole post makes no sense and if it does, I'm sure it's already been said in those magic 6 pages I skipped, but I thought I'd get my thoughts out of my head before I forgot. I think there is more in my noggin, but I can't think straight right now.

Anyhoo, I don't think this is the last bit of island information we'll be getting. I certainly think there is more smoke monster reveal than just it coming out of the light cave.

Annnnd, it's bedtime.

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Blader5489 said:

So here's my list of things I want answered. Whether it be on the show, in the upcoming encyclopedia, or an off-hand remark in podcast or interview, I will not be completely satisfied without answers to these mysteries:


--What the "magic box" is

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threenote said:

best post of the thread. Good job, man.

(still reading it though)

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