I'm not sticking up for the COP. I'm simply stating why they would not want to approach an open door without knowing if anyone else was inside, to me that's common sense.
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Arizona cop cleared in hotel shooting
- Thread starter krazen
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I'm not sticking up for the COP. I'm simply stating why they would not want to approach an open door without knowing if anyone else was inside, to me that's common sense.
There's a good correlation.
Do note the uptick in the past decade despite crime/murders still falling.
Also, the homicide rate is from FBI stats. I just like using that graph because it shows various key history points. If you're too lazy to look it up, you can go here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/17/rick_nevin_murder_statistics_safest_year_ever.html
Seems to me that you want to cherry picking, disbelieving the fact that research all points toward the fact that guns and their ownership, or even laws about them, really have nothing to do with the upswing/downswing in violence. Almost everything points toward various social causes (some linkage toward leaded gas as well).
You really should read a paper called "Kids and Guns" written by Mike Males. Really great piece about how the media has been increasing the amount of reports on violence despite violence decreasing since the 90s and how they always want to find an easy scape goat, which makes people believe a whole lot of bullshit.
There's also a ton of research about how the media actually causes mass shootings.
finowns
Member
Where's the open door? I didn't see it when I watched the video. Even if there was an open door the threat assessment has to be REASONABLE because with your logic there is absolutely no way for the police to ever err.
Police need necessary skills in deescalating a situation it seemed in this instance the police were doing quite the opposite.
OrionFalls
Member
By referring to him as a COP and not a MURDERER, youre actively defending him. Those were not the actions of a trained cop.
Geez, tone it down.
Also, just to show how paranoid cops are today:
So despite there being way less crime today and for over two decades, police killing suspects (because not all of them were criminals) has remained mostly the same since the overall murder/homicide high points in the 70s, 80s, and 90s... if not higher.
Yep, fewer violent crimes are being committed than since the 50s and 60s, but cops are killing more people.
This chart doesn't seem to distinguish between justified and non-justifiable homicides, but considering how this cop was just found not guilty of even manslaughter, the vast majority of them are likely all justified homicides.
How come no one is doing anything about this?
George Washington
Member
They should have used non lethal force. Although the guy failed to listen to their command, they were negligent with how they dealt with he situation. A person was killed for no good reason.
BANGS
Banned
Are you a trained cop? Can you show us how it's done? Please send us your video tonight thanks...
OrionFalls
Member
No, but I am a human with a brain. Anyone with a brain and a sense of morality would not act in that way. Unless youre telling me you would. In which case youre murdering scum, too.
I am not going to warn people in this thread a third time. Either you stop the direct insults, or you are going to receive a ban. I do not care how morally justified you consider it to be, the rules on this are clear.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Are you a fucking idiot?
It's almost like the people cops murder are...... human too.........
BANGS
Banned
You shouldnt quote and agree with yourself.
Dragonburn
Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bauZwl9AP0&feature=youtu.be&t=39
I think this is an appropriate response to the argument you're making. The person he's shot is still dead. All lives matter.
OrionFalls
Member
Didnt you know? BANGS is the only person on this forum who is ever right. Ever.
BibiMaghoo
Member
I think you need to recognise that different roles in life come with different consequences for failure, and that these responsibilities usually come with associated payment and are known to those applying.
For example, a store worker making a mistake with change would have little consequence beyond an irritated customer. A paramedic making a mistake with medication volumes would obviously carry a greater consequence. A solider making a mistake with firing upon a civilian would carry severe consequences, and so on. Police are obviously high on the list as the power they wield means it must be so. Generally the more damage you can cause in a job, the higher the payment and levels of training, and the greater the consequences for failure.
I think the best part about this is that there are many military personnel and police officers offering their own view on this matter across the internet and a lot of them are as disgusted as most people in this thread.
From what I've read, they were all trained to actually handle this type of situation much better, but how wide spread this better training is an unknown, given how different each district/state/city/etc seems to handle training. Even the amount of time they're trained for varies.
BANGS
Banned
You guys sure are jumping to alot of conclusions about what I've said. You should keep my first post ITT in mind before responding with such nonsense...
Not trying to say what the cop did was right or that he shouldn't face any consequences, just saying he's not some fucking mastermind murderer who's entire plan in life was to infiltrate the police department just for the chance to shoot some idiot... This was just a bad situation...
Not trying to say what the cop did was right or that he shouldn't face any consequences, just saying he's not some fucking mastermind murderer who's entire plan in life was to infiltrate the police department just for the chance to shoot some idiot... This was just a bad situation...
Dude Abides
Banned
Nobody said he's some mastermind so your post is really dumb.
BANGS
Banned
Lots of people are saying the cop was just looking for blood. That would imply he did all that training and joined the force just to kill one person and have his career destroyed. I really doubt that, it's more likely he just made a terrible mistake. People don't just develop short term bloodlusts like that...
Sarkozix le Gaulois
Member
Just watched the video. Not gonna lie, it moved me.
This poor dude was clearly not a threat, he was scared and confused while the officer did nothing to calm him. Quite the opposite, he kept yelling at him, adding to his confusion.
Daniel made some mistakes but he didn't deserve to die over it.
This poor dude was clearly not a threat, he was scared and confused while the officer did nothing to calm him. Quite the opposite, he kept yelling at him, adding to his confusion.
Daniel made some mistakes but he didn't deserve to die over it.
This cop (like so many others) is trained to believe that everyone around them is a possible threat and every call may be his last. He was freaked out and clearly stressed and doing nothing to calm the situation down because he isn't properly trained to de-escalate situations but rather, survive them.
This is of course, just my opinion...Condolences to the victims family...this was pretty horrible to watch even without audio.
test_account
XP-39C²
Om my fucking god! I watched the video, that is cleary murder, no fucking doubt. I can understand that the cops being nervous, but still, thats fucking crazy. Heavy assault rifle, multiple shots, guy was following instructions just like he was told. He was crawling, but apparently not like the cop wanted.
EDIT: Apparently the guy crawling tried to pull his pants up, i didnt see that. But yeah, as the article say, the cop could just have cuffed the guy when he was lying there. I dont know, the whole situation is fucking crazy!
EDIT: Apparently the guy crawling tried to pull his pants up, i didnt see that. But yeah, as the article say, the cop could just have cuffed the guy when he was lying there. I dont know, the whole situation is fucking crazy!
BANGS
Banned
I can see that, or perhaps his instincts took over and he forgot his training...
Dude Abides
Banned
It doesn't imply that at all. It just implies he's a little cowardly Ed Hardy fuckboy who wants to feel like a tough guy. Like most cops, he probably joined the force because it gave him the opportunity to yell at and threaten people and feel like a big man for once in his life.
Dude Abides
Banned
That word doesnt mean what you think it means.
Dude Abides
Banned
It's ok. I understand lazy shitposting is much easier than making an argument.
BANGS
Banned
Ah well good luck with that...
If his instincts are so bad that he didn't perceive the abject fear in Daniel Shaver's mannerisms and actions, then he lacks empathy to the point that he is a sociopath.
BANGS. Do you personally think he was scared? One could make the argument that Daniel Shaver didn't follow orders to the letter, but any sane person with a modicum of empathy would be able to put things into context.
If that cop were a dog, he would be euthanized.
BANGS
Banned
Seems like it considering he only shot when the guy reached behind him. If he was looking to just murder someone like everyone says he could have done it any other less convenient time. I don't believe in coincidence...
OrionFalls
Member
Losing my keys is a mistake.
Going to the supermarket and forgetting my wallet is a mistake.
Killing someone in cold blood with no signs of remorse is NOT a mistake.
BANGS
Banned
Was it a "mistake" for the perp to put his hand behind his back only a few seconds after the cop told him that if he did exactly that, he would be shot?
OrionFalls
Member
The perps name was Daniel. He had 2 kids.
Do you have kids?
A family? People you love and who love you?
I was pulled over once when I was a teenager. It was a case of mistaken identity. Someone had shot someone or something.
They pulled me over with their guns drawn. They told me to slowly get out of my vehicle. As I lifted my foot off the break the car rolled into its parking gear. They freaked out a little bit, but didnt shoot me.
They used their powers of deduction to determine that I wasnt trying to actually get away, or run the cop in front of me over. Because thats what a human being would do. You take the context of everything thats happening in to account when you do something.
When Daniel was on the floor begging not to be shot. When he in the girl left the room with a completely dumbfounded look on their face. When he was weeping. All of those things are context.
BANGS
Banned
/topic
hammysaurusrex
Member
The "but, but, but think of how stress he was in that moment" argument is fundamentally silly since it's a two way street - if he's that incompetent and cowardly in a moment of stress that his job demands, then he probably doesn't need to be wielding an assault rifle as part of his job.
In my job, if I screw up and someone is injured, the penalty is harsh and swift. It's hard to not be bitter about these thug-cops constantly getting slaps on the wrist because they were lucky enough to land in a job that babies them instead of an actual profession that requires responsibility.
In my job, if I screw up and someone is injured, the penalty is harsh and swift. It's hard to not be bitter about these thug-cops constantly getting slaps on the wrist because they were lucky enough to land in a job that babies them instead of an actual profession that requires responsibility.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Airola
Member
I think cops should be taught to shoot only if they see something in the person's hand and not react to only a movement. But then again I guess this was a different kind of a situation than an ordinary "possible criminal with a weapon" scenario as the premise was that someone is pointing a gun from a hotel room window.
The cops were definitely way more alert and I assume they have much tighter set of rules in situations like that. And really, if the guy would've been someone who had an intent to shoot people from his hotel room, I'm not sure if waiting to see a weapon in hand would be the wisest choice. I mean, who knows if he has a button that could set off some explosives or something.
So in a way I understand keeping the situation in extremely tight control with very little room to juggle.
But damn, I still think there should be another way even in such a tense scenario. Especially when the guy is already crawling. Couldn't they approach him at that point and check if he has any weapons or other suspicious stuff?
I guess the cops have to approach each situation like this as if it's the real thing. They probably thought they were about to stop another hotel shooting from happening so they had to go to the situation with that kind of an attitude.
I've been thinking the situation as if I was Daniel, and I think I wouldn't have been able to do what the police told to do, and I'd be dead too. Some of it is because I'm not a native English speaker so things could get "lost in translation", but I think the orders from the cops were unnecessarily confusing. What a horrible last minutes the guy had to go through.
I don't quite think he is quilty of murder as I can understand the hypothetical scenario was one of high risk and the cops had to approach the situation with that in mind, but I think he is quilty of manslaughter at the very least. I think if it turns out that a situation wasn't dangerous after all but the suspect was killed, the police should always be held accountable for the death of the suspect no matter what the original scenario was.
The cops were definitely way more alert and I assume they have much tighter set of rules in situations like that. And really, if the guy would've been someone who had an intent to shoot people from his hotel room, I'm not sure if waiting to see a weapon in hand would be the wisest choice. I mean, who knows if he has a button that could set off some explosives or something.
So in a way I understand keeping the situation in extremely tight control with very little room to juggle.
But damn, I still think there should be another way even in such a tense scenario. Especially when the guy is already crawling. Couldn't they approach him at that point and check if he has any weapons or other suspicious stuff?
I guess the cops have to approach each situation like this as if it's the real thing. They probably thought they were about to stop another hotel shooting from happening so they had to go to the situation with that kind of an attitude.
I've been thinking the situation as if I was Daniel, and I think I wouldn't have been able to do what the police told to do, and I'd be dead too. Some of it is because I'm not a native English speaker so things could get "lost in translation", but I think the orders from the cops were unnecessarily confusing. What a horrible last minutes the guy had to go through.
I don't quite think he is quilty of murder as I can understand the hypothetical scenario was one of high risk and the cops had to approach the situation with that in mind, but I think he is quilty of manslaughter at the very least. I think if it turns out that a situation wasn't dangerous after all but the suspect was killed, the police should always be held accountable for the death of the suspect no matter what the original scenario was.
Dude Abides
Banned
Calling someone who did nothing illegal a perp.
Thats how people who slavishly worship authority think. Authority killed him, and authority is incapable of wrongdoing, so he must have been a criminal.
Thats how people who slavishly worship authority think. Authority killed him, and authority is incapable of wrongdoing, so he must have been a criminal.
There are many ways to handle that situation.
Cops on other forums have criticized this situation because of how they're trained to handle it, like making these suspects lift their shirts up to and spinning around to show that they're not concealing any weapons.
Or how they wouldn't have made them crawl at all. Just made them walk backwards with their hands over their heads with their fingers intertwined.
The fact that the drunk man was already making mistakes following their commands and then getting shot for making a mistake while crawling really bugged a lot of these other cops and military people.
Yes, even the military handles civilians better than these cops did.
And the guy didn't put his hands behind his back. He put it to his side to pull his pants up and they could all still see his hands, even the shooter. This is why the Sgt was beginning to reprimand him until the shooter opened fighter. The shooter was just antsy.
The Sgt should have gotten fired as well for escalating the situation (he was the one barking out the commands, not the shooter). There were 4 other cops there too, btw.
Oh please.
No one is worshipping any cops, even if they're ignorantly calling the drunk guy a perp.
It's just a blind defense
generaldane
Member
How exactly was that guy supposed to crawl properly with his legs crossed and his hands in the air? Why was the cop's orders so confusing? Seems the guy was setup to fail.
PataHikari
Banned
Military's have standards and rules of engagement that they have to follow and have to try an deescalate situations.
Cops trying to deescalate get fired.
First of all, deescalation is part of training in various states/cities/counties/departments. So no, they don't always get fired.
Second, no one is really asking that they deescalate. There are far better methods of checking someone for weapons and making them come to the officer without that Simon Seys or DEATH bullshit that was going on there.
It's not just soldiers who are taught not to shoot someone for pulling up their pants, which was in full view by everyone there, it's other cops too who have talked about how they're trained to deal with situations like what happened.
Again, even the department the shooter belonged to knew he fucked up, but the fact that the Sgt hasn't been reprimanded is shit.
PataHikari
Banned
Cops are taught they can beat and kill whoever they please as long as they say the right magic words.
"Stop Resisting"
"I feared for my life"
"He went for my gun"
There are no good cops.
"Stop Resisting"
"I feared for my life"
"He went for my gun"
There are no good cops.
Sarkozix le Gaulois
Member
Yes, just like there's no good muslims. They're all shit.
PataHikari
Banned
Well this isn't a bad argument that I've never heard before.
Oh wait.
Being a cop is not a race or religion or sexual orientation. It's a job. A job that in the U.S is rotten to the core because of extreme racial bigotry and no accountability. There are no good cops because any cop that tries to be good ends up no longer a cop at the end of it for crossing the Thin Blue Line
These types of threads always remind me that humans are angry creatures who crave blood... while bemoaning their fellow angry creatures who crave blood.
This is why I avoid all confrontations and will apologize even when I'm not at fault.
It's also part of the reason why i stopped posting for a long time here. Just a lot of angry hate.
This is why I avoid all confrontations and will apologize even when I'm not at fault.
It's also part of the reason why i stopped posting for a long time here. Just a lot of angry hate.
I liked your take on this. Its good to hear that other LEOs also found this unacceptable.
I think the internet has broken humans. We need actual human, face to face interactions to develop correctly.
Sarkozix le Gaulois
Member
So because it's a job and not a religion you're free to demonize all cops ?
I just checked, there's around 750000 officers, are you seriously telling me all of them are scum ? Just because, in this specific case, one trigger-happy cop killed an innocent guy ?
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