TheSlySoul
Member
Does the Kickstarter have sexy male genies or am I remembering wrong?RIP Shantae?
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Reasonable requests, though.
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How Anita Sarkeesian Wants Video Games To Change (Kotaku)
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The Lamonster
Member
I've always respected Sarkeesian, and I've always avoided Gamergate discussions, but I've always been confused about one thing that maybe GAF can clear up now that we have some specific directives from her.
Is she asking for these guidelines to be applied to all video games? What if I want to play as a big-butt lingerie-wearing white girl?
I appreciate that many, many video games sexualize women in this way, but I don't know if I can get behind an idea to water down every single game going forward. Sometimes eye candy can be fun, and that applies to more than just human bodies. It can also mean flashy colors, complex particle effects, etc.
and yeah, RIP Bayo lol
Is she asking for these guidelines to be applied to all video games? What if I want to play as a big-butt lingerie-wearing white girl?
I appreciate that many, many video games sexualize women in this way, but I don't know if I can get behind an idea to water down every single game going forward. Sometimes eye candy can be fun, and that applies to more than just human bodies. It can also mean flashy colors, complex particle effects, etc.
and yeah, RIP Bayo lol
It's a big problem in Tomb Raider. If I remember correctly, they had to go back to the studio twice to make Lara's pained cries not sound orgasmic.
Of course, the japanese version still sounds like a hentai.
Funyarinpa
Member
Definitely a good list.
I just don't want people to carry it to the point where a game is criticised no matter its scope and aim is because it doesn't fit the points.
I would like this to be the norm (to some extent at least) in the industry, yes.
But if the characters and models in the game were made the way they are because of conscious design decisions, that's fine with me no matter how it portrays its world and characters.
I just don't want people to carry it to the point where a game is criticised no matter its scope and aim is because it doesn't fit the points.
I would like this to be the norm (to some extent at least) in the industry, yes.
But if the characters and models in the game were made the way they are because of conscious design decisions, that's fine with me no matter how it portrays its world and characters.
This is what she's saying is not ok.
You can have a nice ass, just stop the cameraman from leering at it.
Saint of Killers
Member
I think it means not to make them overly voluptuous in general.
entremet
Member
I think creators should always have agency, it's just the pendulum has swung so far to other side in mainstream gaming.
Sex sells everywhere. Movies, ,TV, but those mediums also have more products that aren't as blatant in objectifying women.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Can anyone think of a game you would've liked less if it adhered to that list? I can't. I don't really like her videos, but that's a good list.
Freeman
Banned
This is one is funny to me. Countless times when I'm watching a movie or playing a game I know that if someone just passes by and listen to what is going on they are going to think I'm watching porn.
So not liking an end is the same as DEMANDING that they changed it? The end just plain sucked and Bioware lied to their fans about it before releasing the game, then people come and distort the story to make the fans look bad.
Only 5, in 4 the main female bosses are in very heavily armoured suits, the frog unit has a ton of tactical equipment and Meryl is dressed exactly as a soldier should be.
Hell, Vamp is actually the most underdressed
omg a nipple
RedRooster
Member
You think of AS as a video game critic?
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Reasonable indeed.
Surprised she didn't include "less boobs physics exaggeration" or is that included in animate female character to move the way normal women?
Good article and list, I agree with all of her individual main points and most of what she said. The only point I really take issue with, I think, is this,
I feel like this is sort of a false equivalency, penises aren't really sexualized in the same way breasts are, even in media that specifically targets straight women. I don't think male sexualization is anywhere near as common as female sexualization, but I reject the notion that it doesn't exist in gaming at all (especially if you look at otome games). I also don't think that all sexualization is inherently bad, and that this is something that needs to be looked at on more of a case-by-case basis.
I feel like this is sort of a false equivalency, penises aren't really sexualized in the same way breasts are, even in media that specifically targets straight women. I don't think male sexualization is anywhere near as common as female sexualization, but I reject the notion that it doesn't exist in gaming at all (especially if you look at otome games). I also don't think that all sexualization is inherently bad, and that this is something that needs to be looked at on more of a case-by-case basis.
Her 8 points are reasonable, but I do take issue with how absolute she is in some of the things she says. I think it's fine to sometimes have a character that plays up their sexuality or gender. Sometimes, it works.
You're on a gaming forum though. Chances are most of the people who talk about shitty game design here don't make their own games
You're on a gaming forum though. Chances are most of the people who talk about shitty game design here don't make their own games
No of course not. But I think she would like these to be considered in the creation stage of games. "Do we need our female ninjas to be wearing bikini's and walk like their hip bones are attached to ballpin hammers? Probably not, let's not do that"
I'm sure she'd be happy if the conversation came up at any point because there's a lot of times where it simply doesn't.
I'd say that'd be included in the animations request.
matrixman92
Member
"Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's."
Can someone help me understand this one? I cant click into the article right now, so i dont know if it says more. Is it referring like literal camera emphasis on the rear end, or like how sometimes the actual character design has a bigger rear end?
The point right before that is have various body types, if its that second point, dont those two kind of contradict each other
Can someone help me understand this one? I cant click into the article right now, so i dont know if it says more. Is it referring like literal camera emphasis on the rear end, or like how sometimes the actual character design has a bigger rear end?
The point right before that is have various body types, if its that second point, dont those two kind of contradict each other
What games are you playing?
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
She isn't acting like a reviewer or critic. She's acting like an expert in her field educating and putting forward ideas and concepts to advance the medium socially. I mean that's pretty great intent and I fully support it, except she isn't an expert in her field. She doesn't even stand in the field. She's a spectator and nothing more. She's as qualified as a regular forum user.
Despite this, I fully agree with her list. I'm sure there's more that could be added though.
GalacticMouse
Member
All we know is that a large chunk of the money went to salary...not necessarily for her. I'd assume she has at least a video producer on staff if no others. Also, non-profits pay their employees just like any other company. Salaries are often a bit lower, but they also have to remain competitive to get good people to work for them.
Back on the issue at hand, the article reads like a very skeptical opinion on the talk itself. It sounds like there's definitely a few times where logic is stretched to make a point, and it absolutely sounds like she focuses on the negative a lot more than the positive. There are certainly things that could change in games for the better, especially with gender and race...but it seems to me like better writing is really going to have to take the lead. It's no secret that many video games aren't known for their writing and I feel like a lot of her criticisms will be addressed as game studios continue to hire better writers and evolve as storytellers....
I think that's the thing that confuses me most about her critics...ultimately, she's fighting for better writing in video games, which is something that gamers have been asking for for
console
NinjamicWZ
Banned
My issue is that it's a line of thought that operates under an assumption that all protagonist/antagonist situations in video games are and will be resolved with violence. Gonna have to broaden your perception of games and what they can be if you want to broaden them. Teaching the savages is helpful, but teaching the enlightened might kill two birds with one stone.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I approve of the "Include female enemies that aren't sexualized" point, that would be great.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
R.I.P. Bayonetta
Pretty decent list, but I don't see the big deal with this one. There is nothing wrong with making characters look attractive - especially in fantasy universes.
I think it's more an issue that's it done so often.
In the case of Bayonetta, and seeing it as a Nintendo produced game, I think there's a bit more leeway because Nintendo has such a good list of other female video game heroes who aren't sexualized, and generally meet all the other requirements on the list. For them at least, it's a once in a while thing.
Vermillion
Banned
Nope.
sir_roflcopter
Banned
Games are a unique medium in that they require significantly more time investment from the consumer than other art forms that are also up for mass consumption. The hate for the people who were angry at that ME3 ending is silly and childish, because the series was marketed about being about choices and the effects they have. They literally bragged about the numeric amount of things that changed in each game depending on your decisions in the previous game. With people having put in $120 and probably a hundred hours, if not more, by the time ME3 rolled around...yeah, i can see why they got mad.
Sarkeesians "demands" aren't really the same thing, anyhow. That's apples to oranges.
Just curious about this, as I don't any of the voice actresses in mainstream titles doing that at all. I'm assuming she has done work about this one.
As for the list itself, everything seems reasonable although the male power fantasy very much exists in triple A video games (the Rambo shirtless armor is pretty ridiculous on men as well, of course nothing as extreme as the Soul Calibur DLC armor that was just revealed).
Well never played Tomb Raider, so I guess it really does exist.
Aquamarine
Member
I like these suggestions.
They aren't overly extreme, and they detail basic, easily-achievable goals that will make a real difference.
In general, I haven't been a fan of Anita from the onset, but these goals are well thought out and reasonable. Good job on this one.
Your attempt of shutting down discussion like so many others is... funny, but could you provide atleast reason for that?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
She specifically points out that female mooks are not a problem (so long as they aren't sexualized or victimized and just normal enemies who happen to be women). I, of course, am not surprised, but remember those threads about having female enemies in Uncharted games and some people were saying "Sarkeesian will bitch about violence against women"? And we said "no she won't, that's a strawman"?
I wonder if having a direct quote on the subject will stop people from making that strawman.
I wonder if having a direct quote on the subject will stop people from making that strawman.
I don't really wonder. I know it won't. xD
Freeman
Banned
Come on, the bosses in MGS4 are cringe worthy, to me it adds to the charm of how weird MGS is.
TheSlySoul
Member
I think that is my point. Fan service is ok, just make sexy guys. Which is why Smash is great. Too bad Chrom did not make it, could have another swimsuit character.
User 73706
Banned
If that's what you want it's already out there in billions of incarnations. If you actually want to help take a lady out to dinner first by shooting for equal standards along the lines of what she's mentioned before you immediately jump to PAWG Simulator 2014.
ARealGamer
Banned
Even though all her arguments are valid, my point is that she is arguing for nobody. I just think making the next game character more curvy isn't going to usher in a new age of female gamers. What's her endgame?
Remember the Tomb Raider reboot E3 demo?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Calm down dude. I'm looking this as an artistic freedom issue.
Are women overly sexualized in games? Yes
Should we have more women in games? Absolutely
Does Anita have valid points? Yes
Should she be free to say what she want? Not even a question
I just have a problem with that quote. To me that's like someone demanding that a musician not sing about a subject, whatever it is. Try to divorce your self from the subject and see the overall idea of making demands of artists.
That's all I'm saying.
Ok, so I bet a majority of us on this forum and other gaming places should just shuttup when we're not happy with a game. Cause we should only get to say anything if we make the game, right?
You do realize gamers all the time try to tell game developers how to make the game. How come it's only bad when Anita does it? I've never seen this complaint anytime people make criticisms of games or say how the game maker should have done it unless it has to do with female portrayel in gaming.
Until you break their suits off, and then they look like this.
The Beauty and the Beast stuff was dumb anyway.
Its more for the industry to look at why they make characters in a certsin way. Basically, the design elements aren't bad it's that they're the default without question.
Basketball
Member
The bolded is good , don't care about the rest
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I guess by "her field" you meant gaming, but her field is feminism... And I'm pretty she's quite a lot more qualified than the average gaffer...
They kind of play into eachother. When controlling a third person female model they tend to overemphasize the ass.
Capcom does this to nearly all of it's female characters. ( And I dont mind) but it's noticeable that they've put thought into it.
Beyond something like The Last of Us?
I mean, it's certainly not as bad as it could be.
Would you rather her pout? Be mild mannered?
Seriously, what's wrong with legitimate demands? It's not like they're threats. They're reasonable requests that devs to which devs should strive to adhere.
Should Rosa Parks have "suggested" that she didn't want to move to the back of the bus?
Well they're based on actual photoshoot models, and i'm talking about the fact that they start off in heavy armor.
And it's definitely part of the charm, mgs is equal opportunity when it comes to objectification.
Finale Fireworker
Member
This was a fair reply and I apologize for my strong reaction. I'll edit the post to better reflect the actual nature of your post.
truestatic
Member
Even 4 went a bit askew with Naomi Hunter's conspicuously plunging neckline.
The Beauty and the Beast unit and their
photo shoot scenes
Shining Sunshine
Banned
I agree with some points, but disagree with others.
I think we're already on our way to getting more females in games of different race and animating in normal human ways.
We had a strong Asian female soldier in BF4, another soldier in CoD:AW, an African American girl in The Walking Dead, and of course Elly from The Last of Us.
And for those harping on Kojima and his "Silent", I still think, to this day, The Boss is the strongest female character in any video game.
I think we're already on our way to getting more females in games of different race and animating in normal human ways.
We had a strong Asian female soldier in BF4, another soldier in CoD:AW, an African American girl in The Walking Dead, and of course Elly from The Last of Us.
And for those harping on Kojima and his "Silent", I still think, to this day, The Boss is the strongest female character in any video game.
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