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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

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mdubs

Banned
In a perfect world, the Federal Government would throw down the towel, say they were operating the services with zero exception, and any province which says otherwise will have to find some way to fund their system themselves.

What will they do, Succeed? I'd like to see them try considering the people would never go for it, especially if you were enhancing their services.

That would likely lead to a reference to at least a couple of the respective provincial courts of appeal (you can bet that Quebec would 100% be one of them), and then afterwards almost certainly resulting in an appeal to the SCC. Why? Because even if the provinces like the effects of the reform in some way, they will each have individual wants and will not take kindly to the feds trying to coerce them with money to that extent. Further, this would be viewed as an encroachment by the provinces, and they would feel the need to defend their powers to prevent encroachment by the federal government on other issue afterwards.

Provinces could argue that 1. the legislation is ultra vires because cutting funding would infringe on the power of the provinces to effectively regulate health care per s.92 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and 2. federal funding of health care has been constitutionalized as an unwritten principle (possibly under the recognized principles of 1. the rule of law, or 2. federalism).

How would the Court decide? Your guess is as good as mine as the Court has been very hard to pin down in terms of how they'll interpret the both the federalism aspect and the unwritten principles argument. Either way, this would all be extremely murky constitutional territory that the federal government would likely rather avoid (unless Trudeau really is his father's son in this sense and is willing to go to battle with the provinces. I find this unlikely just because of how much sheer political capital that required last time around). I guess the point it that the provinces are not going to lie down and take the federal government trying to impose anything on them, which precludes any workable universal scheme.
 
The Privy Council Office posted a document that answers a lot of the questions people had yesterday.

The names of several departments are being changed as follows:
- Citizenship and Immigration Canada to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada;
- Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada to Global Affairs Canada;
- Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada to Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada;
- Industry Canada to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada;
- Public Works and Government Services Canada to Public Services and Procurement Canada; and
- Environment Canada to Environment and Climate Change Canada.

So DFAIT...er, DFATD is now GAC?

The Honourable Navdeep Singh Bains, Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, leads a strong team of ministers, supported by the Honourable Kirsty Duncan, Minister of Science, and the Honourable Bardish Chagger, Minister of Small Business and Tourism.
Minister Bains is also now responsible for:
- the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency;
- the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec;
- the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency;
- the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario;
- Western Economic Diversification Canada; and
- the Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario.

He's also responsible for StatsCan. Basically, Navdeep Bains runs most of Canada now.

The Honourable Kent Hehr, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, will work closely with the Honourable Harjit Singh Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, to ensure Canadian Forces members transition seamlessly to the programs and services of Veterans Affairs Canada.

Prediction: this will be a prelude to merging Veterans Affairs and Defence.
 

Sean C

Member
In a perfect world, the Federal Government would throw down the towel, say they were operating the services with zero exception, and any province which says otherwise will have to find some way to fund their system themselves.

What will they do, Succeed? I'd like to see them try considering the people would never go for it, especially if you were enhancing their services.
They would sue the federal government, and win, considering the Supreme Court has previously said the feds can't even partially regulate securities even with provincial consent because it erodes the division of powers, let alone try to cudgel the provinces into handing over one of their enumerated powers wholesale.

Also, purely on a political level, the specter of massive disruption in the healthcare systems would alarm the electorate.

He's also responsible for StatsCan. Basically, Navdeep Bains runs most of Canada now.
I remember how some of the provincial governments were seriously alarmed yesterday at the lack of any mention of the regional economic development portfolios (per Kady O'Malley). It's an interesting choice not to assign those, since in the past they were nice patronage sidelines for whoever got the job.

Prediction: this will be a prelude to merging Veterans Affairs and Defence.
Certainly possible. As a department it has struggled with the declining number of veterans (they've added more administrative responsibilities to it since to try to pick up the slack). Though as an Islander, the location of the DVA headquarters here is a big deal, jobs-wise, so expect the PEI delegation to be on red alert on that score (the Conservatives closed the separate veterans' office here and downsized HQ, both to loud protests).
 

mdubs

Banned
They would sue the federal government, and win, considering the Supreme Court has previously said the feds can't even partially regulate securities even with provincial consent because it erodes the division of powers, let alone try to cudgel the provinces into handing over one of their enumerated powers wholesale.

Also, purely on a political level, the specter of massive disruption in the healthcare systems would alarm the electorate.

I wouldn't characterize a provincial win as a slam dunk, I could see the feds tossing out a number of grounds which could potentially sustain the legislation, particularly by characterizing a universal drug plan as a matter of national importance sustainable under Peace, Order and Good Government. Do I think this is a strong argument? Not really, but I think it's plausible enough the be within the realm of possibility that the Court might lean that way especially if public opinion is generally onside with the legislation.

Either way, the incredibly dubious nature of the consitutional issues which would be raised by any sort of universal drug plan will definitely dissuade the government from attempting it wholesale. If they want it to happen, it would takes years of hard negotiation with each province individually to get them on side with each of their individual health care plans, and just the nature of the provinces in general will make this incredibly unrealistic since they'll all be asking for concessions.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
y02qh4k.png


Hmm?

 

maharg

idspispopd
I don't think the path to federal pharmacare is anywhere near as fraught as people are describing here. If the Federal government offered funding for provincial pharmacare programs meeting accessibility standards to the provinces (where each can agree and get the funding or not agree and not get the funding), any provincial government that refused that offer would probably be looking at its own loss in the next election.

This is how we got universal health care to begin with and I see no reason it couldn't work again.

This isn't like the Senate. The only provinces who lose in this equation are the ones who don't play.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
If we get an MMP system, it might make more sense for there to be several regional conservative parties as opposed to one party, like the Coalition in Australia. So you can have your centrist Tories in Ontario/Quebec/Atlantic Canada and your Wild Rose Tories in Alberta and then have them form up via an informal coalition (with the leader being from the Central/Eastern Canada wing and the deputy being from the Alberta wing).

It'd be one way to contain the "crazy" of the more hardline Conservatives, but also let the richer fiscally conservative Central Canadians feel good about voting for a party of tax cuts and balanced budgets and secret trade agreements.

We're not getting MMP from a Liberal government who made no such commitment. Trudeau only promised an end to FPTP and a committee to "make recommendations" (no promises) but they're not going to accept 40 percent of the seats for 39.5 percent of the vote. The NDP was going to implement MMP but that train has obviously left the station.

https://www.liberal.ca/policy-resolutions/31-priority-resolution-restoring-trust-canadas-democracy/
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
We're not getting MMP from a Liberal government who made no such commitment. Trudeau only promised an end to FPTP and a committee to "make recommendations" (no promises) but they're not going to accept 40 percent of the seats for 39.5 percent of the vote. The NDP was going to implement MMP but that train has obviously left the station.

https://www.liberal.ca/policy-resolu...das-democracy/
Oh I know, it'll be token change or perhaps no change at all if they just say that the studies suggest most Canadians like the current system or something. Any true reform is a devolution of powers and is not in the interests of the two natural governing parties of Canada.

---

Also a bit surprised that Rona Ambrose is the new interim leader, but then again, it's not like they had lot of people to choose from.
 

Sean C

Member
I wouldn't characterize a provincial win as a slam dunk, I could see the feds tossing out a number of grounds which could potentially sustain the legislation, particularly by characterizing a universal drug plan as a matter of national importance sustainable under Peace, Order and Good Government. Do I think this is a strong argument? Not really, but I think it's plausible enough the be within the realm of possibility that the Court might lean that way especially if public opinion is generally onside with the legislation.
The Supreme Court wouldn't even let them partially regulate securities with the consent of the provinces, and that's a recent decision. The idea that they would allow a hostile takeover of an entire jurisdiction is just not plausible.
 
s.92 of the Constitution Act, 1867. Health care was not a big concern in 1867, so they felt that giving provinces exclusive jurisdiction made sense because it would allow the to tailor regulation to local needs. Expect a mountain of federalism challenges if the feds ever try to introduce a federal drug plan without getting all the provinces signing on (which will never happen)

i have very little faith on how Provinces run things, if the Federal can do smackdown Provinces who decide to flirt with Privatization, then I side with the Federal

hahaha this coming from the guy who dated Stronach and then borrowed someone else's dog when he conducted ansob story interview in his home Province about being heartbroken.
o-PETER-MACKAY-900.jpg
 

gabbo

Member
i have very little faith on how Provinces run things, if the Federal can do smackdown Provinces who decide to flirt with Privatization, then I side with the Federal


hahaha this coming from the guy who dated Stronach and then borrowed someone else's dog when he conducted ansob story interview in his home Province about being heartbroken.
o-PETER-MACKAY-900.jpg

I wonder what he thinks of the Conservative interim leader (Who he would have obviously lost to in a vote, had he run. He doesn't have the big boy pants for the position). Now that's a tweet worth reading. Following through on openness on zero day != tabloid fodder.
 

Silexx

Member
I read the title and it made me want to punch something. Mansbridge is a national treasure.

Mansbridge was also practically ready to lather Trudeau's ballsack in that interview.

The National Post is the last place to accuse anyone of lacking journalistic integrity

Are you referring to the paper's editorial CPC endorsement that led to Coyne stepping down as senior editor? Because that is a class A example of integrity.
 

mdubs

Banned
I don't think the path to federal pharmacare is anywhere near as fraught as people are describing here. If the Federal government offered funding for provincial pharmacare programs meeting accessibility standards to the provinces (where each can agree and get the funding or not agree and not get the funding), any provincial government that refused that offer would probably be looking at its own loss in the next election.

This is how we got universal health care to begin with and I see no reason it couldn't work again.

This isn't like the Senate. The only provinces who lose in this equation are the ones who don't play.

You may be overestimating the deference people might give to the federal government on this. If the regulations which accompany such monetary transfer are objectionable, the provinces aren't just going to opt out and let other provinces get a piece of the pie while they don't. First, their provincial government would immediately decry the regulations (and it would likely be more than one province) to get public opinion on their side. It's not all that inconceivable that the citizens of that province might side with their own provincial government in feeling spurned. Then the province would launch into the court challenge that we described above about the feasibility of the entire scheme. Is it fair that one province could potentially nuke the deal for the rest? Probably not, but that's the reality of federalism today.

The Supreme Court wouldn't even let them partially regulate securities with the consent of the provinces, and that's a recent decision. The idea that they would allow a hostile takeover of an entire jurisdiction is just not plausible.

Characterizing it as a hostile takeover seems to overstate the scope of such a plan. Sure this could held held analagous to what the Court decided in the Securities reference, but the federal government could get a little more creative in justifying this as a "matter of national concern" under POGG. Do I think this is a strong argument? No, not really given their reasons in Securities Reference, but there's a plausible one they could make and when the Court decides on federalism cases it's very difficult with certainty how they might proceed.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Mansbridge was also practically ready to lather Trudeau's ballsack in that interview.



Are you referring to the paper's editorial CPC endorsement that led to Coyne stepping down as senior editor? Because that is a class A example of integrity.

That just shows that Coyne has integrity, while the paper has none
 

Stet

Banned
i have very little faith on how Provinces run things, if the Federal can do smackdown Provinces who decide to flirt with Privatization, then I side with the Federal


hahaha this coming from the guy who dated Stronach and then borrowed someone else's dog when he conducted ansob story interview in his home Province about being heartbroken.
o-PETER-MACKAY-900.jpg

Conservatives criticizing a party for actually allowing media to have access to them for once. It's perfect. I can't stop laughing.
 

Silexx

Member
That just shows that Coyne has integrity, while the paper has none

I think you need to separate the paper's ownership from the actual paper itself. While the owners at Postmedia definitely compromised the credibility of their brand, a newspaper's integrity is maintained by its journalists and columnists. Coyne is still a NP employee and thus his actions are still a reflection of that paper.

This, I want to point, does not equate some sort of vindication for Postmedia, nor Christie Blatchford (whom is really the subject here). But I do believe her article was fair. She wasn't really trying to blast the CBC as liberal-biased, but rather discussion the dilemma a public news organization faces when after being subjugated to a government that had threatened their very livelihood now seeing the ascension of a government that has promised to essentially make it rain (and has historically done so) and having to maintain some journalistic balance.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
I think you need to separate the paper's ownership from the actual paper itself. While the owners at Postmedia definitely compromised the credibility of their brand, a newspaper's integrity is maintained by its journalists and columnists. Coyne is still a NP employee and thus his actions are still a reflection of that paper.

What? No. Why would I assume that this is the one and only time the ownership interfered with the content? For all I know, they could be doing it on a consistent basis. I have no reason to assume otherwise. You may have a point if more of their journalists joined Coyne in support, but they didn't so I don't have any reason to trust that paper at all.

This, I want to point, does not equate some sort of vindication for Postmedia, nor Christie Blatchford (whom is really the subject here). But I do believe her article was fair. She wasn't really trying to blast the CBC as liberal-biased, but rather discussion the dilemma a public news organization faces when after being subjugated to a government that had threatened their very livelihood now seeing the ascension of a government that has promised to essentially make it rain (and has historically done so) and having to maintain some journalistic balance.

Some of it is that, but I also think a lot of it is the Cbc enjoying having access to PM's office again after Harper's shutout of the press. I saw a tweet about them thanking the PM's for having access again. I guess they wanted to revel in it.
 

Pedrito

Member
CBC was obviously in a very akward situation this election but I feel like their journalists did a fairly good job at staying neutral. It's not like they tried to hide things that would hurt the LPC, like the Dan Gagnier stuff. Also, the CPC only has itself to blame with the way they treated the media the last decade.

The conservative media tend to be very agressive and it often turns into a festival of hyperboles and insults. Think Fox News, Sun Media or Rebel. No wonder conservative supporters see biased liberal media everywhere. To some of them, if you don't call someone an idiot and don't act like it's the end of the world, it means you're biased.
 

Silexx

Member
What? No. Why would I assume that this is the one and only time the ownership interfered with the content? For all I know, they could be doing it on a consistent basis. I have no reason to assume otherwise. You may have a point if more of their journalists joined Coyne in support, but they didn't so I don't have any reason to trust that paper at all.

lol wut? Coyne was being showered in unanimous praise by his colleagues for his stance.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
lol wut? Coyne was being showered in unanimous praise by his colleagues for his stance.

Sure, words are cheap, what actions did they take? What did they do that would convince me that they wouldn't roll over the next time the owners want something printed?
 

Silexx

Member
Sure, words are cheap, what actions did they take? What did they do that would convince me that they wouldn't roll over the next time the owners want something printed?

The ability of a newspaper's owner to dictate the political endorsements of candidates is entirely their prerogative. It's kinda the perk of owning a newspaper.
 

maharg

idspispopd
You may be overestimating the deference people might give to the federal government on this. If the regulations which accompany such monetary transfer are objectionable, the provinces aren't just going to opt out and let other provinces get a piece of the pie while they don't. First, their provincial government would immediately decry the regulations (and it would likely be more than one province) to get public opinion on their side. It's not all that inconceivable that the citizens of that province might side with their own provincial government in feeling spurned. Then the province would launch into the court challenge that we described above about the feasibility of the entire scheme. Is it fair that one province could potentially nuke the deal for the rest? Probably not, but that's the reality of federalism today.

Challenging a scheme where funding is given in exchange for standards would challenge the very existence of universal health care in this country. Again, that is the basis on which we have it. Provinces would be jeopardizing far more than pharmacare funding if they challenged the federal government's ability to give funding in exchange for standards, they'd be jeopardizing their access to funding for their entire health care system.

Federalism today is literally built on this kind of deal. The Canada Health Act is an implementation of that very idea, and it was passed under the current constitutional order. Arguably it is the devolution of health care as a provincial responsibility that gives the federal government this leverage -- a province has every right to opt out, and so the federal government has every right to not give them funding for a program they don't want. The only way the provinces could challenge its implementation in whole, aside from all of them refusing to participate, is if the federal government mandated its implementation, which it wouldn't (as it doesn't single payer health insurance).

This kind of conversation has proven extremely frustrating here, where things being 'hard' is confused with being 'impossible'. Yes, there would be negotiation involved to make something the provinces would accept, but pharmacare is an extremely popular proposition and opting out after a reasonable negotiation would be very dangerous for any party that wants to win the next election.

Again, this is not senate abolishment we're talking about here. There's no requirement for unanimous consent, even if it would be nice. We did it once before (with the same separation of powers as we have now) and we can do it again.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
The ability of a newspaper's owner to dictate the political endorsements of candidates is entirely their prerogative. It's kinda the perk of owning a newspaper.

Yes, they have the prerogative to do whatever they want to something they own. How is this supposed to make me have more faith in the National Post's journalistic integrity?
 

Silexx

Member
Yes, they have the prerogative to do whatever they want to something they own. How is this supposed to make me have more faith in the National Post's journalistic integrity?

I'm starting to get the feeling that your definition of journalistic integrity is based whether or not a given journalist/columnist agrees with you.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
I'm starting to get the feeling that your definition of journalistic integrity is based whether or not a given journalist/columnist agrees with you.

Because after witnessing the owners meddling with the content of their paper, not having faith that other content may be meddled with is an unreasonable stance to take?
 
Mansbridge was also practically ready to lather Trudeau's ballsack in that interview.
.

Mansbridge didn't follow Trudeau around all day to pelt him with hard-hitting questions on policy. He can (and has) done that in interviews. The point of this piece was to provide human insight into the swearing-in ceremony, and capture the significance of Justin returning to parliment not as a boy, but a man and the prime minister following in his father's footsteps. If that's all lost on you then I'd say there's no hope for you.
 

Silexx

Member
Mansbridge didn't follow Trudeau around all day to pelt him with hard-hitting questions on policy. He can (and has) done that in interviews. The point of this piece was to provide human insight into the swearing-in ceremony, and capture the significance of Justin returning to parliment not as a boy, but a man and the prime minister following in his father's footsteps. If that's all lost on you then I'd say there's no hope for you.

I don't think anyone was expecting Mansbridge to hold Trudeau's feet to the fire. And yeah, doing a 'behind-the-scenes looks at the ceremony' fluff piece is perfectly fine. If anything, the value in the piece was found when we saw that the 'Because it's 2015' answer was actually cooked up by committee as an anticipation to the question and not spontaneous. (FYI, there's actually nothing wrong with this. A PM and his staff need to anticipate any questions they may face and draft ways to answer them. But some thought that Trudeau came up with that answer on the spot)

That said, there were a few glaring times when Mansbridge was trying to invoke the ghost of Pierre Trudeau and Justin was just going 'Nah'. Or when Peter expressed wonder that the PM and his newly-minted Cabinet were taking the bus to the Hill as though they were humbling themselves to which Justin replied 'Lots of people take a bus every day to go to work.' It's like Mansbridge was trying just a little too hard to portray this government as the dawn of a glorious new era.
 

Azih

Member
I'm starting to get the feeling that your definition of journalistic integrity is based whether or not a given journalist/columnist agrees with you.

Not letting Coyne endorse someone else in a separate Op-ed as EIC was a giant red flag for the NP.
 

Silexx

Member
Not letting Coyne endorse someone else in a separate Op-ed as EIC was a giant red flag for the NP.

Right and like I said, that hurts the paper's brand. I don't see how it reflects on the journalistic integrity of the people who work at the NP, especially when Coyne took the stand that he did.
 

Azih

Member
Right and like I said, that hurts the paper's brand. I don't see how it reflects on the journalistic integrity of the people who work at the NP, especially when Coyne took the stand that he did.

Well,the next EIC will be far more of a yes man/woman and it's less likely we'll find out of any other owner interference with their staff.

But in any case it's a bit of a semantic argument I think because the NP, having force Coyne to resign on a matter of principle, is less trustworthy than it used to be and that's the important thing.
 
I don't think anyone was expecting Mansbridge to hold Trudeau's feet to the fire. And yeah, doing a 'behind-the-scenes looks at the ceremony' fluff piece is perfectly fine. If anything, the value in the piece was found when we saw that the 'Because it's 2015' answer was actually cooked up by committee as an anticipation to the question and not spontaneous. (FYI, there's actually nothing wrong with this. A PM and his staff need to anticipate any questions they may face and draft ways to answer them. But some thought that Trudeau came up with that answer on the spot)

That said, there were a few glaring times when Mansbridge was trying to invoke the ghost of Pierre Trudeau and Justin was just going 'Nah'. Or when Peter expressed wonder that the PM and his newly-minted Cabinet were taking the bus to the Hill as though they were humbling themselves to which Justin replied 'Lots of people take a bus every day to go to work.' It's like Mansbridge was trying just a little too hard to portray this government as the dawn of a glorious new era.

Peter had to ask about the bus because it seemed odd. Peter did make a lot of references to PT, that was deliberate because its signifcant to have the son of a PM become a PM. That is kind of the point of the piece. At no point did Peter Mansbridge give me the impression that he was trying to imply that 'PT was a legendary PM and so will be Justin'. That's just reaching.

Peter Mansbridge has demonstrated journalistic integrity in interviewing Justin and the other candidates leading up to the election. I don't know why its being called into quesiton now after the fact.
 
I don't think Trudeau is dissapointed. Probably backed it on his election platform with no real intent to fight for it, and just let the US reject it.

publicly saying that he is disapointed it the ''politcally correct'' thing to do to make yahoos in Alberta happy, but he is probably secretly relieved that that project is dead so he can move onto other things

it's mostly Alberta, Harper and the industry's fault. For years everyone has been saying that they prefer cleaner forms of energy while Oil Sands is the dirtyest and dirty form of crude out there.

Alberta, cry me river. Say hello to Preston Manning and the rest of the gang
 

diaspora

Member
This is the best possible thing to happen to the liberals. Trudeau gets to make the people in favour of it happy by expressing his disappointment while those opposed are content with it being dead.
 
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