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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens

this is at the very least a feature complete game in 2019-2020 and with a few hundred backed im not willing to ride it out any longer than i already have.

Nah that's just being fickle and i don't think you were ready to ride anything out from the minute you pressed that button. There was a lot of doubt already, even though the kickstarter information page, CIG themselves and the FAQ page laid/lays out quite clear, how early this game and the studio was and is.

(That Kotaku article spells out as much)

Shit, i wonder how tech companies and startups that become the biggest deals that they are today would think of this mindset? even though they were told that a foundation had to be built first.Then think about your favorite game studios. Along with the people that invested in them early, i'm sure they hade their expectations but being realistic and hoping for the best is far better given how unpredictable software is.

How many countless times have you heard about folks that bailed out? compared to those that waited for the long hail and then something sparks. Then everyone suddenly is onboard again or at least try to get back on board. This game will most likely have a similar effect, once 3.0 comes out and SQ42 gets to a level of polish that can be deemed gold and won't have people bitching about how unfinished it may be or whatever else. This wasn't going to be in and out, give them money, now instant video game. It wasn't going be rainbows and sunshine, it was going to be hardwork and waiting. Now it looks like a lot of the hardwork and grueling roadblocks are being pushed to the waist side. Which is great to see, now it's time to start seeing these results and playing them.

So no acutal development didn't just start, it's being going on for just under 2 to 3 years with a full staff and with an engine that is now were they want it more or less. You would get justified dirty looks by saying otherwise in regards to the folks that have worked hard on this. While you sit and wait.
 

apav

Member
So I installed the tech demo again and I can't play it at anything higher than "low" settings @1080p on my Asus Super clocked 970.

With the stuff they've shown off, you'll probably need a minimum of 2 1080s in SLI to get decent performance.

Should have never bought in and no, I'm not going through the process of asking for a refund. I'll use this as a learning lesson.

System specs used in the demo:

Intel i7-5820K 3.3GHz Stock
GPU ASUS ROG GTX 1080 Strix
Memory 64GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4 (speed unspecified)
ASUS X99-A (model unspecified) No specific model

http://www.gamersnexus.net/news/2637-system-specs-for-demo-pcs-at-citizencon-2016

High end, but not as crazy as people were expecting. The 64GB is because dev tools eat up a ton of memory, you don't need that much for the game. 16GB would be fine.

The source of everyone's poor FPS in the PU right now is the original Cryengine netcode. Basically it's choking your FPS trying to load huge amounts of unnecessary information, like the damage states of a ship at Kareah while you're at Port Olisar. It does this for all other players on the server. If you go into Arena Commander, ArcCorp or your hangar you'll see you get much better performance. In 3.0 they're introducing the first iteration of their entire rewrite of the netcode, so you should expect much better performance.
 

Burny

Member
So no acutal development didn't just start, it's being going on for just under 2 to 3 years with a full staff and with an engine that is now were they want it more or less. You would get justified dirty looks by saying otherwise in regards to the folks that have worked hard on this. While you sit and wait.

What is it? Did development start in 2012, yesterday, 3 years or five years ago?

According to Roberts, it was a while before the Kickstarter:

Chris Roberts 2012 said:
You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?

Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.

That woiuld make overall dev time five years. If it only started three years ago, the blame is on him for pretending otherwise. And full-bodied spouting the other things in that quote.
 

KKRT00

Member
What is it? Did development start in 2012, yesterday, 3 years or five years ago?

According to Roberts, it was a while before the Kickstarter:



That woiuld make overall dev time five years. If it only started three years ago, the blame is on him for pretending otherwise. And full-bodied spouting the other things in that quote.

Yep, its blame on him for claiming that.
You cant make such game with like 4-7 devs (not counting support stuff etc) and thats what they had till like February of 2013.
 
What is it? Did development start in 2012, yesterday, 3 years or five years ago?

According to Roberts, it was a while before the Kickstarter:



That woiuld make overall dev time five years. If it only started three years ago, the blame is on him for pretending otherwise. And full-bodied spouting the other things in that quote.

From the same article you quoted.

Chris: Basically I’ve been working with a small team over the course of the past year to get the early prototyping and production doneThe team has varied in scale from just me, essentially, to about 10 people.. That’s just the actual work though.

It is for pre-production and it has been pointed out many times in this thread (and probably the one before) that at time of kickstarter there were only 7 people employed at CIG.

And honestly.......



Man you just love coming in here from the Elite Dangerous thread whenever something remotely bad about Star Citizen happens. Are you even interested in the game at this point, or just hoping it fails?

You've already posted that gif of Chris Roberts and the flight model at least twice in both Star Citizen threads.


Are you not tired of coming in here with the same negative slant that is painfully obvious over almost every single one of your posts in the Star citizen threads? Not even a little? Aren't the least deterred by your failed comparison to No Man's Sky? If not, then I must admit the determination I have seen so far in this thread is impressive.
 

Burny

Member
Yep, its blame on him for claiming that.

As such I do not see why anybody should not be requesting a refund if they feel like it. Even more so as the original ToS allowed for it, before they were conveniently changed.

It means being an ass the devs behind the project, but if you don't feel you're being treated with the honesty you'd expect, which is Roberts is most certainly not doing with all these backtrackings, then really, the "foot soldiers" in their teams have him to blame as well.
 

KKRT00

Member
As such I do not see why anybody should not be requesting a refund if they feel like it. Even more so as the original ToS allowed for it, before they were conveniently changed.

It means being an ass the devs behind the project, but if you don't feel you're being treated with the honesty you'd expect, which is Roberts is most certainly not doing with all these backtrackings, then really, the "foot soldiers" in their teams have him to blame as well.

I wont argue semantics, but my idea of crowdfunding is to enable developers to do something they would not able to do with normal publishers and that comes with risk.
Like, i understand your point, but there is no good way of handling it really. Its not like they buy new cars and yachts with money, but put those money into development and that goes for most crowdfunding projects of course.
Taking out money from development will only increase chance of project not succeeding, which is not anyone (sane) would want.
 
Wow, just finished watching the 1 and a half hour long video with all the heads there. That was amazing, seeing how excited they all were about the game and how it's progressing really made me feel great about the people in charge of these studios. All of them want to see this game made with the highest level of quality possible, not by taking shortcuts or cutting corners, they want to make the best damn game ever and that's what really inspires me with confidence in this team they put together. All of them look like they want to play the game, like they want to build this game for the community.

Sure, it might be easy to fake, but with the amount of ideas they bounced off each other, speaking in depth about the way the studios are running and the things they're doing so freely, the way they couldn't help but bring something up that they were excited to do and implement in game. I'm very excited about the direction of this game and it really stems from these videos, the amount of passion these developers have, I can relate too it. Will Maiden on the UK AtV was the same, he really wanted to talk about scanning system and all the different ways it can be used and implemented.

Erin also seemed to suggest we'll see the demo of SQ42 before we see 3.0, which is always exciting. Ben Lesnick also said on a weeky show he comes on "Bensday with Batgirl" that the decision to cut the demo was more or less last minute and it went down to Chris just saying it's not ready and they readjusted the show. While the development of the game hasn't always been smooth, I appreciate Chris sticking to his commitment of showing us a finished state of a SQ42 demo and not something that comes up short. Sure, maybe it would have been better to just cut some corners off the demo and say "that's good enough, send it out to them even though we can do better." I prefer to wait and get rewarded with something greater, like the planet tech.

Finally, I really can't wait for further iterations of all these systems they're building out with the new toolsets they have. The last 18 months of work has finally seemed to payoff in so many ways and I really hope in the next 12 months this starts turning into the game we're all dreaming about.

So I installed the tech demo again and I can't play it at anything higher than "low" settings @1080p on my Asus Super clocked 970.

With the stuff they've shown off, you'll probably need a minimum of 2 1080s in SLI to get decent performance.

Should have never bought in and no, I'm not going through the process of asking for a refund. I'll use this as a learning lesson.

The High - Medium - Low doesn't do much in terms of optimization, a programmer recently answered about that and admitted they have to go in and see what causes poor performance. Also play Arena Commander to get your real FPS. I play with a 290 and FX 8350 and get a very stable, high framerate. The PU is bottlenecked by the netcode which is being reworked for 3.0.

if this citizencon event proved anything it is that the game is still at the very beginning stages of development. i haven't seen game play of the mining,trading,bounty hunting systems, how many landing zones and systems have they created so far? nothing new with Squadron 42 either. this is at the very least a feature complete game in 2019-2020 and with a few hundred backed im not willing to ride it out any longer than i already have.

i have backed so many early access and kickstarter games but the 2 projects that i would consider stuck in development hell are DayZ and SC easily.

I think the game is actually in the asset creation phase, which means it's coming out of the "building tools and all the systems we need" part and getting into "we're starting to create really cool stuff and making the whole game." I don't think you follow the game much, they said the Homestead demo was made by a team of 5/6 artists in just the 4-6 weeks from Gamescom, with the tools also being updated removing a lot of their work during these weeks and having to do things over again. Ones these planets get into the production pipleine they can be made very quickly with the toolsets they have.
 

Zabojnik

Member
I wont argue semantics, but my idea of crowdfunding is to enable developers to do something they would not able to do with normal publishers and that comes with risk.
Like, i understand your point, but there is no good way of handling it really. Its not like they buy new cars and yachts with money, but put those money into development and that goes most crowdfunding projects of course.
Taking out money from development will only increase change of project not succeeding, which is not anyone (sane) would want.

The plans for Star Citizen have changed and evolved in non insignificant ways since the days of the original crowdfunding campaign. So if you backed expecting one thing, but years later realized it's not turning into what was (then) promised, both in terms of features and the time it's taking, a refund should at the very least be contemplated. However, if you backed well into the development and especially after the "convenient" change of the TOS, knowing fully what SC is all about (if you didn't, then that's on you), then no, a refund is rightly out of the question.

I share your view on crowdfunding. The only case in which I'd ever consider asking for a refund is if the authors of the project turned out to be scammers. At which point it would probably be too late anyway, but that's part of the risk you're taking with crowdfunding. CIG, if anything, are guilty of the contrary, as they're clearly pouring their tears and sweat into what is the absolute dream project for so many people. This last notion alone is enough to make me feel uncomfortable at the very thought of asking for a refund, but that's me and I certainly don't expect (of) other people to feel the same way. Not the original backers, at least.

Other than that, it's a matter of opinions, perspective, expectations and knowledge / ignorance, as with everything in life. So on one hand you can have people making what is no doubt the most ambitious game ever attempted - no wait, they're actually making two games ... and on the other, people expecting it (both!) to be nearing completion or be at a development stage they think it should be, because it's been in development for 4 years. Which no matter how much you explain to them the difficulties of setting up multiple studios across the world and the time it takes to make the machine a well-oiled one ... how the changes, such as the wonderful Procedural Planets tech implementation, have an effect on pretty much every aspect of development ... and so forth and so on ... they just won't get it. You can't win either, as they can always fall back on the "they should've stuck with the original plan, go the Elite route of slowly adding stuff, etc." argument. And it's a pretty valid argument too. So, yeah. Agree to disagree and move on is pretty much all you can do.
 
The plans for Star Citizen have changed and evolved in non insignificant ways since the days of the original crowdfunding campaign. So if you backed expecting one thing, but years later realized it's not turning into what was (then) promised, both in terms of features and the time it's taking, a refund should at the very least be contemplated. However, if you backed well into the development and especially after the "convenient" change of the TOS, knowing fully what SC is all about (if you didn't, then that's on you), then no, a refund is rightly out of the question.

I share your view on crowdfunding. The only case in which I'd ever consider asking for a refund is if the authors of the project turned out to be scammers. At which point it would probably be too late anyway, but that's part of the risk you're taking with crowdfunding. CIG, if anything, are guilty of the contrary, as they're clearly pouring their tears and sweat into what is the absolute dream project for so many people. This last notion alone is enough to make me feel uncomfortable at the very thought of asking for a refund, but that's me and I certainly don't expect (of) other people to feel the same way. Not the original backers, at least.

Other than that, it's a matter of opinions, perspective, expectations and knowledge / ignorance, as with everything in life. So on one hand you can have people making what is no doubt the most ambitious game ever attempted - no wait, they're actually making two games ... and on the other, people expecting it (both!) to be nearing completion or be at a development stage they think it should be, because it's been in development for 4 years. Which no matter how much you explain to them the difficulties of setting up multiple studios across the world and the time it takes to make the machine a well-oiled one ... how the changes, such as the wonderful Procedural Planets tech implementation, have an effect on pretty much every aspect of development ... and so forth and so on ... they just won't get it. You can't win either, as they can always fall back on the "they should've stuck with the original plan, go the Elite route of slowly adding stuff, etc." argument. And it's a pretty valid argument too. So, yeah. Agree to disagree and move on is pretty much all you can do.
Totally agree with the rest. But since you pointed it out...

That mindset is all well and good but even that method has it's downsides and that community has it's fair share of unrest and annoyance at how slow content is produced over there, it's quality and quantity and the like. But that's neither here nor there because CIG has to work with what they got now in regards to their plans. Which seems to be paying off. Still like i mentioned before lets be glad it hasn't been near a decade or even 6 to 7 years since development started. In comparison to say Final Fantasy XV/15/13 versus, which mind you has been looking amazing so far or even Final Fantasy Online before/after Reborn. That game had a lot of delays, director changes, reworks and the like.

Now imagine having a look at that internal process as a backers for that long? the community would be hell itself. But it seems things are starting to work out for Square Enix currently. All of that took time and since CIG is treating this like their magnum ops with them making two games. It needs time and 2 to 3 years (4 coming up) of fully staffed development is not enough for a grand triple A, single player game and a Persistent Universe/MMO both. Lucky for us and even unlucky for us, we won't be left in the dark wondering. Although we would now have firsthand experience of how unpredictable this shit can be and understand a investors position.

I for one think the choice was made for them, and they just appiled the "killing two birds with one stone" method but it that has its pitfalls. More so dealing with a large growing community with demeands and on top of that creating a development environment, along with refactoring a game engine at the same time, was maybe not the best route. But that's hindsight, the real point should be that all the effort so far. Was a push to lessen the grunt work needed for later,to cut down on making completely different pipelines for essentially the same content. Now it seems like whatever they make in the future should be easily integrated into both games, instead of having two mindsets at odds with each other.

At the end of the day no one has really done anything like this before. More people should have understood or at least prepared themselves straight up, for how rough the waters would be towards the "finished line". It's no joke going from 7 to 10 and then a 100 to 200 and finally 300 in the span of 2 years. That's nuts and if game studios today have trouble with getting out either new or legacy ips out on "time" and not be hunks of half assed dogshit. What makes this game any different? it doesn't, a game still has to be made and were only human.
 

elyetis

Member
Other than that, it's a matter of opinions, perspective, expectations and knowledge / ignorance, as with everything in life. So on one hand you can have people making what is no doubt the most ambitious game ever attempted - no wait, they're actually making two games ... and on the other, people expecting it (both!) to be nearing completion or be at a development stage they think it should be, because it's been in development for 4 years.
It's not black and white. It definitely seems unfair to simply say "but when there was the kickstarter they said that" given how much the scope of the game evolved.
There is also a middle ground between calling the game a scam, and saying that everything is going as expected and the only reason people get disappointed is because of their own wishfull thinking.
New expectation, usually coming from CR himself, not being meet is what lead to many people *disappointment*. SQ42 not having it's demo when it was something said and teased even a few week ( maybe even days actuallly ) before, is really just another case of a last minute delay ( announced at the last second ) of an unknown duration.
I couldn't do a list of every delayed release from date given after the kickstarter but the only release which didn't get that kind of delay I can think of, is 2.0 release.
I'd like to say that 3.0 will have that in common with 2.0, and maybe it will, but I can't say I would bet on it, quite the opposite ( I simply don't see them releasing 2.6 and 3.0 in a matter of 2 month, but I really really hope they do ).

Star citizen being a 2018 game was originaly said as some kind of a joke, now it seems like the year it might become a beta ( with 4.0 ? even that seems too soon since it will only introduce traveling to multiple star system ), and I'm not sure many people here would easily affirm that it would then leave beta before 2019.
 
It's not black and white. It definitely seems unfair to simply say "but when there was the kickstarter they said that" given how much the scope of the game evolved.
There is also a middle ground between calling the game a scam, and saying that everything is going as expected and the only reason people get disappointed is because of their own wishfull thinking.
New expectation, usually coming from CR himself, not being meet is what lead to many people *disappointment*. SQ42 not having it's demo when it was something said and teased even a few week ( maybe even days actuallly ) before, is really just another case of a last minute delay ( announced at the last second ) of an unknown duration.
I couldn't do a list of every delayed release from date given after the kickstarter but the only release which didn't get that kind of delay I can think of, is 2.0 release.
I'd like to say that 3.0 will have that in common with 2.0, and maybe it will, but I can't say I would bet on it, quite the opposite ( I simply don't see them releasing 2.6 and 3.0 in a matter of 2 month, but I really really hope they do ).

Star citizen being a 2018 game was originaly said as some kind of a joke, now it seems like the year it might become a beta ( with 4.0 ? even that seems too soon since it will only introduce traveling to multiple star system ), and I'm not sure many people here would easily affirm that it would then leave beta before 2019.

CR and the rest of the crew wanted to show that SQ42 demo slice but it just didn't work out as they planned (software doesn't work with rigid plans, unless you force it to). After thinking about the Morrow Tour and the reaction it got here and other places even though they said it was early work in progress. I don't fault them that much at all since they want to give it more time, given it would be the first example from SQ42 with game play and a mission. It has to be good. Plus it was literally down to the wire and that's been said consistently by them. Now they're saying that either one of the two upcoming live streams, would be a good place to show that demo and given what previous end of the year streams have shown. They show a lot of content on them (SQ42 related as well), given their 2 to 5 hour length each.

Also CIG put out the hangar module, 1.0 of AC (really super early, it was near unplayable and people bitched regardless knowing that), then whatever else between that. Then 2.0 and to a certain degree 2.3 and 2.5 were relativity on time. Either way 2.6 has to be out this year otherwise there might be a literally shit storm. Plus 2.6 contains what 3.0 needs to branch from and if 2.6 doesn't see the light of day this year. Then 3.0 is not going to be seen two to three months into the next year. Given how CIG releases ptu and patches currently. A month or so head start would be great, as that update (i believe) contains their new patch system and that should help get builds out faster for everyone including the devs. It's a lose, lose in regards to output if they don't.
 

Burny

Member
Either way 2.6 has to be out this year otherwise...

They haven't even gotten 2.5 out of the pre-testing phase, or am I mistaken here?

Hands down, who here expects them to release 2.6 to the "public", as in average backer this year and who expects to see that elusive 100% release quality finished Squadron 42 mission they've been touting this year?


It's probably clear what my expectiations are on both, but what will your conclusions be, if by silvester 2016, one or both of them haven't materialized? Will you still think that not showing off that Squadron 42 mission was completely "down to the wire" and they almost made it? Or would you start to consider the possiblity, that they might not even be close to be as far along as they would have us believe?



What is your "breaking point", if there is such a thing for you? If they sail through 2017 without Squadron 42, maybe without even showing it off at all, is that entirely ok? If they start selling ever larger and ever more expensive concept ships while not having delivered on the most basic of Kickstarter promises even or far earlier concept sales, is that ok (screw "start", that's long been the case)? If they release something, but it turns out to be completely underwhelming, say, a 1.0 PU being sold normally, that is about as buggy as their current Alphas, has only a fraction of all the ships and professions, maybe even notably lacking the early really big, expensive ships in a flyable form. Is that ok?


Are you ok with Roberts just expanding the list of ships and promised attached mechanics + features quicker than they get to implement even the basic things all the way through to 2020? What if (hypothetically speaking) it turned out, that at their current funding level, they could only deliver on the smallest fraction of all their promises and are forced to tag whatever state of their Alpha/Beta/Gamma they have by then as "1.0" release, start to sell it in order to keep themselves afloat (Elite Dangerous got a hell of a lot of flak for it btw.)? Would you think that Roberts was completely right to have managed the project as he did and is doing, or would you feel that he in this case was guilty of overpromising in order to draw in money for things that don't match his promises?


Or to formulate it a bit more drastically: In the hypothetic case that CIG and Star Citizen implode at any point in the next couple of years, due to running out of funds and without having delivered a released product. What would your conclusions be? Would it be that the way they've gone about realizing the vision of Roberts was totally ok, and only people didn't pull through by buying more of their concept ships? With all that this woul've entailed, from glowing, constant press coverage turning every average Joe into a supporter and pledge package buyer etc.? Or would it be that the vision has either outgrown what the market supported or that CIG, most notably Roberts, had made fatal mistakes at delivering the vision?
 

KKRT00

Member
What is your "breaking point", if there is such a thing for you?

Thats easy imho, the breaking point is when they spend amount of years that would normally took any other similar dev team and not deliver quality that you would expect from such a team.

We are nowhere near this threshold right now.
 

apav

Member
What is your "breaking point", if there is such a thing for you?

If they haven't made significant progress after 2019, I'd start to be a little worried. But the chance of that happening is slim, we've seem how much progress they can now make in a year. Development increases exponentially, once they get the core gameplay systems and mechanics into the game, development will speed up. They also said creating content is super easy and fast. Once we're at the point where the gameplay is all in but all the star systems aren't, that will be the final lap towards the finish line.
 

elyetis

Member
CR and the rest of the crew wanted to show that SQ42 demo slice but it just didn't work out as they planned (software doesn't work with rigid plans, unless you force it to). After thinking about the Morrow Tour and the reaction it got here and other places even though they said it was early work in progress. I don't fault them that much at all since they want to give it more time, given it would be the first example from SQ42 with game play and a mission. It has to be good. Plus it was literally down to the wire and that's been said consistently by them.
Again I'm not saying "scam" or even "lie", I used it because it's the most recent example where regardless of their intention, even something announced a few weeks before ( setting expectations ) ended up missing the mark. And that it is far from being an exception.

Now people can choose to agree or not with that choice, personnaly I don't like hearing about a delay for the sake of polish, when it's not about the end product. First because, up until now, in the end people still complain that it's not enough. Second because the more you delay something for polish, the bigger the expectation is, so it's even harder to actually accomplish.

Again I am not judging their intention, but I just really don't like reading that people are at fault when their expectation are not met because they shouldn't have them in the first place. And I simply can't agree when it comes directly from the developer.

Also CIG put out the hangar module, 1.0 of AC (really super early, it was near unplayable and people bitched regardless knowing that), then whatever else between that. Then 2.0 and to a certain degree 2.3 and 2.5 were relativity on time. Either way 2.6 has to be out this year otherwise there might be a literally shit storm. Plus 2.6 contains what 3.0 needs to branch from and if 2.6 doesn't see the light of day this year. Then 3.0 is not going to be seen two to three months into the next year. Given how CIG releases ptu and patches currently. A month or so head start would be great, as that update (i believe) contains their new patch system and that should help get builds out faster for everyone including the devs. It's a lose, lose in regards to output if they don't.
True I forgot about the hangar module, but arena commander first release was most definitely an example of a last minute delay ( pretty sure they waited december to tell us that it wouldn't be released that year, only to end up being released 6 months later ).

What you say about 2.6 and 3.0 already don't align with what was said to us 2 month ago thought.
I mean it's a good thing for sure since it help avoiding disapointement, but we shouldn't have to when the info originaly come from the studio, and they are actually radio silent when it comes to updating you about possible delay in advance.

In 3-4 weeks some people will still be expecting 3.0 to be released before the end of the year, if it doesn't happen, other will tell them that clearly it wasn't happening and shouldn't have expected it, blahblahblah. But no, sorry, it's not the consummer/fan/backer/whatever fault if what is said to them end up being wrong, and it is the studio's job to try to realign ( and explain why ) that expectation in time ( not at the last minute like they almost always do ).
Or would you start to consider the possiblity, that they might not even be close to be as far along as they would have us believe?
Even thought I don't think they would willingly lie about it, I still understand that argument.
Because while we did put our hands on some big milestone ( like 2.0 ), we also have Star Marine.. which they thought was very close to release, now ... 18 month ago something like that ? Now I know things were still different at the time, with Illfonic and all, but still it proved they can have some pretty big oversight, and that something they think is close to being ready... can be pretty, pretty far away.
 

Widge

Member
I think there must be a bit of a concern over the two mechanics at play here. On one hand we have the manifesto from the start that this must be a PC melting showstopper of a game, but also we have an elongated dev cycle.

Something else comes to my mind when thinking of this is that was what happened to Duke Nukem Forever. It continually chased changing graphical standards over development, ripping it up, starting over before ending up languishing in dev hell like it did.

You'd hope that over the years, the lead direction does not get their heads turned by advancing graphics standards. Scope or graphics, they're going to have to pick one.
 

Burny

Member
Thats easy imho, the breaking point is when they spend amount of years that would normally took any other similar dev team and not deliver quality that you would expect from such a team.

We are nowhere near this threshold right now.

In terms of the quality they've delivered for the given time our perceptions are vastly different of course. :p

Isn't this a pretty easily avoided "fail condition" though? For starters, as long as there is no absolutely directly comparable project, all they'd have to do is keep up development, keep showing nice tech demos, keep telling that all that and more will be in the game eventually and... Keep on going without ever releaseing a "1.0" product, really. As long as it's in tech demo alpha stages, it's Schroedinger's Space Sim. It's simultaneously the Best Damn Space Sim Ever or the biggest crowdfunding failure of all times, with potentially any other scenario in between.

Let's hypothetically assume however, that at some point Elite Dangerous will have its "space legs" expansion and for a change suffer less from undercooked game design and missing features as today. It would then be directly comparable to Star Citizen's "PU" to some extend, deviations like focus on fine detail in visuals notwithstanding of course. Let's assume they arrived there much, much earlier than Star Citizen with at least competent quality. Would that let you question CIG's handling of the project or would oyu just focus on the things Star Citizen has or would appear and promise to have over such a competitor in the future?


I gather that the breaking point for some people would be being presented with hard, verifyable facts. Like a 1.0 release. Funnily enough though, I don't think it's unrealistic that they'll avoid this as the plague and instead fall into a perpetual alpha cycle followed by a perpetual early access cycle. The only hard reality check I can see coming then is Elite approaching a bit closer to its vision and the people at Frontier learning a couple of lessons about game design. That looks to be years away, so CIG has still a lot of time, before we can compare how bad both Frontier and CIG failed at "amount of years that would normally took any other similar dev team and not deliver quality that you would expect from such a team". ;)
 
So I installed the tech demo again and I can't play it at anything higher than "low" settings @1080p on my Asus Super clocked 970.

With the stuff they've shown off, you'll probably need a minimum of 2 1080s in SLI to get decent performance.

Should have never bought in and no, I'm not going through the process of asking for a refund. I'll use this as a learning lesson.

You must be referring to the Server framerate in the PU. It's not your system. try loading up Arena Commander from Electronic Access and you should have a smooth and silky 60 at high. I run it on a 970 no problems.
 

KKRT00

Member
Let's hypothetically assume however, that at some point Elite Dangerous will have its "space legs" expansion and for a change suffer less from undercooked game design and missing features as today. It would then be directly comparable to Star Citizen's "PU" to some extend, deviations like focus on fine detail in visuals notwithstanding of course. Let's assume they arrived there much, much earlier than Star Citizen with at least competent quality. Would that let you question CIG's handling of the project or would oyu just focus on the things Star Citizen has or would appear and promise to have over such a competitor in the future?
I have not seen planets, nor ship interiors, nor walking player character even in forms of demos from Elite yet.
Was there even a showcase of expansion that they will be releasing at the end of this year that features 'multi-crew' ships?
Refactoring existing systems and assets is way complicated than creating it from ground up, so i dont expect Elite to catch up to SC in two years period or even ever. And of course they dont have to catch up, they are different games right now.

Going by my work experience, I know that we released an application we've been working on for 1.5 year this week and 3-4 weeks ago it was still a big mess, yet now its stable.
Having broken ass alpha product is a reality of software development in my experience. Really, what i see from CIG presentations/demos is not surprising to me at all.
Doing two games of those scale, in their conditions, for about 4 years is not long enough for me to criticize or even start to criticize end effect. And i as i said, being broken while still development, is a nature of this industry.
 

RK9039

Member
You can't even get up from you seat in Elite, so I'd very surprised if they got all those other features before SC. If they do I'll re-install it in a heartbeat but lets be realistic here.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Let's hypothetically assume however, that at some point Elite Dangerous will have its "space legs" expansion and for a change suffer less from undercooked game design and missing features as today. It would then be directly comparable to Star Citizen's "PU" to some extend, deviations like focus on fine detail in visuals notwithstanding of course. Let's assume they arrived there much, much earlier than Star Citizen with at least competent quality. Would that let you question CIG's handling of the project or would oyu just focus on the things Star Citizen has or would appear and promise to have over such a competitor in the future?

If fictional super-Frontier went beast mode and beat Star Citizen to the punch, sure, I'd just play that. Elite has a lot further to go to be comparable though. I'd still hold out hope for SC since I find the flight model more fun. Doubt Elite would change its atmospheric dogfighting style. I've already gotten more enjoyment out of Arena Commander than I did with Elite, and I have a fairly well equipped Anaconda.

Not like Elite has anything to lose in this discussion anyway. If SC beats them to the punch then you can just go "well that's what you get by conning 200 million out gullible customers etc etc" (or whatever it's up to at that point).

Hopefully Planet Coaster does well for them and they can put some of that back into Elite.
 

Burny

Member
Going by my work experience, I know that we released an application we've been working on for 1.5 year this week and 3-4 weeks ago it was still a mess, yet now its stable..
I strongly suspect however, that whatever product you had been working on had nearly all its planned/sold features in some form before being stable. Otherwise your dev team would be capable of no less than miracles. Star Citizen has not even gotten a basic cargo mechanic in it's available tech demos to date. Not to mention dozens of other, absolutely basic features. I'd argue that that's among the very first thing you need to get into shape if you have a space ship game with trade ships. On a vastly simplyfied functional level, first get the "space tech" going, then get the "ship movement" tech going, then get the "expanded ship mechanic tech" going - cargo loading in this case, then build the meta game around it.

What I see of Star Citizen is a promised scyscraper of a meta game, but five years into (let's stick to what Roberts claimed, shall we?) the project, they seem to be chipping away at the scyscraper's foundations.


I have not seen planets, nor ship interiors, nor walking player character even in forms of demos from Elite yet.
Was there even a showcase of expansion that they will be releasing at the end of this year that features 'multi-crew' ships?

Off topic here, but for the record: No, unless you count the brief showcase of the commander creator as such. Which I wouldn't, seeing as that's visual fluff and doesn't indicate any of the multicrew game mechanics about which they have only made vague hints long ago, that can therefore not be assumed to be very reliable. The current 2.2 update scheduled for sometime end of October onwards doesn't feature multicrew however (it's ship launched fighters) and they are about half a year behind the original Horizons schedule. I wouldn't exepct Multicrew then before sometime Q1 2017.

As for what has been shown and what hasn't, I'd note that even the current landable procgen planets in Elite hadn't been shown in gameplay form until some two months or so before Horizon's release even, which brought the planetary landings. Their time from showing something and adding it to the game has been rather short on average, with little to no tech demo footage ever released. It's therefore entirely possible, that there will be only about half a year between them showing or announcing something from their vision and the game's expanded scope and the feature manifesting in some addon form.


Edit:

Not like Elite has anything to lose in this discussion anyway. If SC beats them to the punch then you can just go "well that's what you get by conning 200 million out gullible customers etc etc" (or whatever it's up to at that point).
Or just be happy to be proven wrong about Star Citizen, play that for a while and hope that they haven't fallen into all the same game design pitfalls into which Frontier have dug themselves with Elite, as well as for Frontrier to learn game design. Only I really couldn't even speculate with any confidence of how it'll go for Star Citizen at this point, as those pitfalls all concern more high level mechanics, which are the skyscraper that I think CIG still has to build, when even the half finished foundations are looking pretty crumbly to me.

Hopefully Planet Coaster does well for them and they can put some of that back into Elite.
Yes, hopefully. The reactions of some people in the Elite community to that announcement were disgraceful. Overjealous small children being pissed at being told they're about to have a sibling describes it pretty accurately, I think. Same thing about the Xbone port. But the market for absurdly expensive digital space ships in concept stage is covered pretty solidly by Star Citzen I believe, so anything that strenghtes Frontier as a dev is overall a boon for all of their games imo. ;p
 

tuxfool

Banned
Going by my work experience, I know that we released an application we've been working on for 1.5 year this week and 3-4 weeks ago it was still a big mess, yet now its stable.
Having broken ass alpha product is a reality of software development in my experience. Really, what i see from CIG presentations/demos is not surprising to me at all.

Indeed. I always wonder about those that demand polish from the game at this stage. Polish is an utter waste of time while you're still developing principal features.

You end up polishing a function that you may end up discarding in the future. Now with this game being a live release they do have the overhead of needing some semblance of quality, but what they are doing is just a more extreme example of "not breaking the build".

They have outright stated that if something looks like it takes too much work to polish, then they won't do it.
 

Zalusithix

Member
As for what has been shown and what hasn't, I'd note that even the current landable procgen planets in Elite hadn't been shown in gameplay form until some two months or so before Horizon's release even, which brought the planetary landings. Their time from showing something and adding it to the game has been rather short on average, with little to no tech demo footage ever released. It's therefore entirely possible, that there will be only about half a year between them showing or announcing something from their vision and the game's expanded scope and the feature manifesting in some addon form.
The time delay is short because they keep the community mostly in the dark until something is close to ready. Basically the antithesis of CIG with Star Citizen. I'll take a largely open development with all the negative caveats that entails any day over a largely closed development.
 

Zabojnik

Member
Totally agree with the rest. But since you pointed it out...

[...]

I for one think the choice was made for them, and they just appiled the "killing two birds with one stone" method but it that has its pitfalls. More so dealing with a large growing community with demeands and on top of that creating a development environment, along with refactoring a game engine at the same time, was maybe not the best route. But that's hindsight, the real point should be that all the effort so far. Was a push to lessen the grunt work needed for later,to cut down on making completely different pipelines for essentially the same content. Now it seems like whatever they make in the future should be easily integrated into both games, instead of having two mindsets at odds with each other.

I mean, it doesn't take a genius to realize that having entire planets open for first-person exploration & basically everything doesn't just add something to the game in terms of possibilities compared to the old 'planets with a few landing spots' vision, it changes it completely. The thing with Star Citizen's crowdfunding is that its success is both a blessing and a curse. You can look at it from different perspectives and see totally different things, which by the way I think the Kotaku article did a good job highlighting.

For example. Do I think having 64-bit precision, procedural planets tech, physics grids, a unified 1st/3rd person camera and proper EVA will make S42 a much more interesting and varied space sim (let's continue calling it just that for the sake of it) than if CIG modified CryEngine just enough to make a modern day Wing Commander with the occasional fps level thrown in? Absolutely, and I for one am glad they went the route they did. However, an argument can be made that starting with something less ambitious (like the aforementioned lowbrow S42 version), bringing that to completion, say by the middle of last year, while simultaneously putting the money pouring it towards the "big picture" persistent universe, would've been a better idea. Even if it meant doing or iterating on something twice (or ten times instead of five, seeing how game development actually works).

Of course, it's a game of give and take. Would the large of the community had been so energized about the project and given so much in terms of money during the first three years, if that was the plan? If there was no hangar, no Arena Commander, no social module, no Alpha 2.0, 2.5 and the numerous upcoming releases, however 'forever on the horizon' they may appear to some people? I very much doubt it.

Now, making a less ambitious game is not a cardinal sin. I've been playing them for years, decades. It is however not what Star Citizen is about, never has been. And that, coupled with the absolutely unprecedented and utterly unexpected crowdfunding it recevied and continues to receive, brings with it a whole new set of challenges. Challenges which CIG frankly weren't completely prepared for. Would another studio(s) had been in their place, growing from 0 to 100 in such a short time, with goalposts that kept moving at the speed of light as more and more money continued to rush in?

Again, I honestly don't know and feel very envious of people who seemingly do. My impression is that many would've settled for something (far) less, perhaps reasonably, while Chris Roberts saw it and continues to see crowdfunding as the trampoline to the figurative and literal stars. Personally, I'm with him all the way and until proven otherwise, because I'm so very tired of settling for less. The difference is that he believes in Star Citizen with all his being (I'd be worried if he didn't!), while I'm still just hoping for the best, as with every 'kickstarter'. I've no real doubts about Squadron 42 coming to fruition, which doesn't necessarily mean it'll be a great game. Star Citizen I continue to be cautiously optimistic for, especially seeing the progress made in the past year, and I'm perfectly content to go with the flow, as long as there is a flow.
 

Outrun

Member
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular but i really don't understand why you'd ask for a refund for a crowdfunded project that has clear evidence it's still in development. If it turned out to be a scam or something like that it seems fine to try to get your money back if you can, but if it's for a reason of just not being happy with the development when you accepted the risks at the start that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I am asking for a refund because I don't believe in CIG's ability to execute this project anymore.

This is MY belief and mine alone.

The precedent has been set by CIG to give refunds. I am giving it a shot because I can think of a lot of things to do with $310 USD.

Once again, lots of good talk on SC going on here. Wish everyone the best.
 

Outrun

Member
I wont argue semantics, but my idea of crowdfunding is to enable developers to do something they would not able to do with normal publishers and that comes with risk.
Like, i understand your point, but there is no good way of handling it really. Its not like they buy new cars and yachts with money, but put those money into development and that goes for most crowdfunding projects of course.
Taking out money from development will only increase chance of project not succeeding, which is not anyone (sane) would want.

Unless they show their financials like they promised to do, you never know... :p

More seriously though, understanding that this funding method is relatively new, what recourse do unsatisfied backers have?
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
[...] even the half finished foundations are looking pretty crumbly to me.

I'd say the most important parts are solid. I'm happy they took the time (and rework) to get those right.

64 bit coordinates - no frameshifting between 32 bit instances that are only created as needed

Server-authoritative instead of trusting P2P. The "hacks" they have to deal with will be on the order of memory reading like map reveal, showing cloaked units and aimbot, rather than god mode and 1 hit kills from people running in a VM to beat cheat detection software.

Multiplayer scaling is the next big thing. Hopefully those networking improvements will go a long way. Can't have the server dropping from 25 to 20 FPS because someone spawned another Starfarer.

I'd say the physics need improvement, but not as much as the rest. Collisions look like a kid knocking around some helium balloons at times, and complex explosions often have some pretty silly things happening. Regarding ship momentum during flight, the thruster parameters are already being adjusted in the patch they're working on now.

For the higher level stuff like economy, I like what I've been hearing so far, but like you said, there's still a lot of ground to cover before seeing that in action. A real supply chain economy like Eve, rather than planets having supply and demand magically replenished on timers in Elite. A big simulation with many agents, and players forming a small part of that pool of activity, with entities like corporations and governments dispatching missions to achieve their goals.
 

Outrun

Member

I am looking for an audit of the parent company, not the UK subsidiary.

I found this bit interesting:

"Bear in mind that this is only a fraction of the overall financial picture of CIG...."

Stuff like a good audit goes a long way into proving that they are running a tight ship and that no cronyism is going on.

Otherwise you have people wondering how Chris Roberts' wife is able to take in the Monaco GP on a yacht. Transparency is key. This way, baseless assumptions are quickly negated.
 

apav

Member
I am looking for an audit of the parent company, not the UK subsidiary.

I found this bit interesting:

"Bear in mind that this is only a fraction of the overall financial picture of CIG...."

Stuff like a good audit goes a long way into proving that they are running a tight ship and that no cronyism is going on.

Otherwise you have people wondering how Chris Roberts' wife is able to take in the Monaco GP on a yacht. Transparency is key. This way, baseless assumptions are quickly negated.

AFAIK that's all we have so far.

I agree, but judging from Chris' character (and the fact that they would've worked a lot less hard on this game if it was a scam) I really don't think he would do that. Plus, Chris was loaded long before he even thought of Star Citizen.
 
I am looking for an audit of the parent company, not the UK subsidiary.

I found this bit interesting:

"Bear in mind that this is only a fraction of the overall financial picture of CIG...."

Stuff like a good audit goes a long way into proving that they are running a tight ship and that no cronyism is going on.

Otherwise you have people wondering how Chris Roberts' wife is able to take in the Monaco GP on a yacht. Transparency is key. This way, baseless assumptions are quickly negated.

That would be if you assume that Roberts was poor before starting this project. His success at the earlier video games and his production company Ascendant pictures (Lucky Number Slevin, Lord of War). But if the "baseless assumptions" as you say seem to be heeded and you don't believe CiG can make the game. Then what more is there to say? Looks like you have already made up your mind. I hope you can find another use for your money that you won't regret later.
 
2.5 has been published for nearly two months

if you don't know what you're talking about then please read more

Just when I was praising on the subtlety.

To all the others, who only come into the thread every few months to say something negative and disappear, great job on the subtlety.

I really don't mind criticism, but it is noticeable when certain posters come into thread and nitpick about the silliest of things, and that is all they do. Nitpick about illogical stuff because they don't care about the game they want to annoy. Just have nothing better to do it seems.

I guess I had to be proven wrong. They want to stick around for a while before disappearing. lol.

Polaris Q&A part 2 up.

Size 10 torpedoes and a Medbay confirmed. Still not a very clear answer as to what size weapons the turrets hold.

Thanks. Isn't the Retaliator like size 3 torpedoes. lol.
 

Outrun

Member
That would be if you assume that Roberts was poor before starting this project. His success at the earlier video games and his production company Ascendant pictures (Lucky Number Slevin, Lord of War). But if the "baseless assumptions" as you say seem to be heeded and you don't believe CiG can make the game. Then what more is there to say? Looks like you have already made up your mind. I hope you can find another use for your money that you won't regret later.

I have not received a refund yet.... :)

If SQ42 turns out stellar, I will be very happy and will make a purchase.

Regards,
 

Zalusithix

Member
Polaris Q&A part 2 up.

Size 10 torpedoes and a Medbay confirmed. Still not a very clear answer as to what size weapons the turrets hold.

At least there is confirmation that there is a lower rear turret. The ship is still horribly vulnerable from the rear bottom, but at least it's not totally defenseless. Now they just need to cover the whole quadrant shield type. Without a 6 sided shield, the largest surface areas of the ship don't have their own shield management.
 
I am asking for a refund because I don't believe in CIG's ability to execute this project anymore.

This is MY belief and mine alone.

The precedent has been set by CIG to give refunds. I am giving it a shot because I can think of a lot of things to do with $310 USD.

Once again, lots of good talk on SC going on here. Wish everyone the best.

You accepted the risks and were told there might be problems when you backed it, though. If you don't believe it anymore then that's perfectly fine for you to think, but backing a crowdfunded game and treating it more like just a normal pre-order seems like the entirely wrong way to approach it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to try to get a refund if you want one or something like that, but that mentality just doesn't make much sense to me with things like this, especially when there is evidence it's still being made. It should be either back it and see if through until the end no matter what happens, or you just don't back it if you aren't willing to take the risk. If it goes well that's awesome and you helped it do that, if it goes badly then you just accept the loss. That should be how people treat crowdfunding games/projects. It's donating money to the developers so that they can put it towards a game that may or may not end up existing at all, not buying a product in the usual sense.
 

atpbx

Member
At least there is confirmation that there is a lower rear turret. The ship is still horribly vulnerable from the rear bottom, but at least it's not totally defenseless. Now they just need to cover the whole quadrant shield type. Without a 6 sided shield, the largest surface areas of the ship don't have their own shield management.

In every bit of literature and art on the ship for....... 7 days nearly, has had a rear lower turret listed.

As well as 360 degree missile turret on the belly.

And the nose turret rotates 360 degrees
 

Zalusithix

Member
In every bit of literature and art on the ship for....... 7 days nearly, has had a rear lower turret listed.

As well as 360 degree missile turret on the belly.

And the nose turret rotates 360 degrees
I have not been following the ship closely as it's not a ship that interests me much. My only points of knowledge are from the very beginning prerelease and quick run throughs of the Q&A.

So yeah, since you've obviously been following it closely, any addressing of the 4 vs 6 sided shields?
 
I have not been following the ship closely as it's not a ship that interests me much. My only points of knowledge are from the very beginning prerelease and quick run throughs of the Q&A.

So yeah, since you've obviously been following it closely, any addressing of the 4 vs 6 sided shields?

From what I have seen. No. They haven't addressed shields in detail. May not be finalized yet. The only information is that there are three large shields (not capital class) for front center and rear section of ship. The exact strength not detailed.
 

chifanpoe

Member
Some updated info on Polaris turrets curtesy of STLYoungblood on Reddit.

[–]STLYoungbloodYouTuber 2 points

Reached to Proxus to get clarification regarding the turret weapon sizes. The short answer, undisclosed at this point:

Hello,

At this time the size of the Turret Weapon sizes on the Polaris have been deliberately left off of the information provided. This was done in an effort to prevent any confusion moving forward. While we routinely remind everyone that all ship stats are subject to change we felt this was the best way to approach this particular ship. Please rest assured that the weaponry will be appropriate for a ship of this size class / role.

I wish I could provide more specific details but this is all the information I can provide right now. Once the Polaris has entered production and we've had time to make a balance pass or two on capital class weaponry I am sure that infomration will be provided.
 
So this weeks ATV shows the process they took to Citizencon, and what went wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRsF6_lwLas

You're going to want to watch this.

They cancelled the showing then on thursday night, damn. It must have been rough to get that e-mail in the UK, I feel for those guys and gals. Also, it was going to be a 1 hour long gameplay demo of SQ42. Wow.

If there is one positive thing, we get this great moment of ST walking in late like he doesn't give a fuck
st_dontgiveafuck0001evytq.gif
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
They cancelled the showing then on thursday night, damn. It must have been rough to get that e-mail in the UK, I feel for those guys and gals. Also, it was going to be a 1 hour long gameplay demo of SQ42. Wow.

If there is one positive thing, we get this great moment of ST walking in late like he doesn't give a fuck
st_dontgiveafuck0001evytq.gif

Dude is rockstar as fuck
 
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