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[Rhazer Fusion]

But...that's the whole point in taking risks. Make games that may not appeal to everyone, but may still bring in new people to your system.

No one's claiming that the game was going to sell gangbusters.

But the game was going to get people who have no interest in an Xbox or Windows gaming to use their ecosystem to play it.

Yes and I definitely agree with you, but Microsoft probably felt like the game was going to be a financial flop considering the length and complications of development and add in that most XBox owners probably wouldn't of bought the game anyway. I thought the game looked good, but so many people online including NeoGAF said the game looked bad. Microsoft probably saw and also listened to the negative feedback online as well which could of all been another contributing factor. Microsoft knows their audience and probably felt like they were not going to lose money on the game. I am not saying Microsoft did the right thing, but unfortunately I understand their decision as tragic as it may be. Then again, for some peculiar reason Microsoft keeps trying in Japan where even Sony is hardly making a dent, so maybe there is more to this story than we think.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Yall see phils tweet about having a show before e3 for scorpio!? He said the guy was right!

*bump scorpio thread
*make new thread


Edit: million dollar marketing idea -lol-

For the starting xbox logo boot up screen. When the Sphere is revealed and the Green X is in full view, have a scorpion crawl out as a nice animation. Fluid. Nice to the touch. Powerful.

 

[Nairume]

At this point though I do fear for Rare. They've been brought up a few times. I honestly don't see how they continue to exist as a company if Sea of Thieves doesn't deliver in a way that matches what Microsoft's wants. They've been wasted up until this point and then suddenly Sea of Thieves exist. It doesn't even matter if it's a quality game in the end.

Rare is safe enough to always be kept around in some form, since MS probably knows that formally closing the studio would be a pr disaster for them.

 

[Apathy]

So how did uncharted 1 get a sequel along with Knack of all games? Those games didnt set the work on fire, one sold very little it's first outing, the other sold alright for a launch title but was ripped apart criticly and yet both got sequels. Same goes for motorstorm pacific rift game did not sell great, and yet got a third game and couple spin offs.

You can't grow if you don't at least give it a shot and learn from it. They didn't learn anything by throwing in the towel after one game.

I'm going to assume Knack sold well enough compared to development cost and the help it got being a launch "kids" game, a niche that it had to fill.

Uncharted sold 2 million (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps...led-god-of-war-iii-due-in-march/1100-6210509/), those numbers were from 2009, a year and a half after it was released, so no idea how long it took. For a new IP on the ps3 seems good if we compare it to how 2m for bloodborne now is seen as good

 

[Roboculus]

Rare is safe enough to always be kept around in some form, since MS probably knows that formally closing the studio would be a pr disaster for them.

Rare's also been pretty good at adapting to different kinds of games in the past so that also helps.

 

[Seiryoden]

You're missing Rise of a Ninja, dude. I actually thought that game was better than broken bond.

YES.

 

[Alo0oy]

I think blaming Phil is misguided. Microsoft doesn't have an "Xbox division", they have a hardware division that includes all their hardware, while their software is in entirely different division that is also shared with other stuff.

The problem is structural, Xbox isn't a wholly owned subsidiary like SIE or an independent corporation like Nintendo, they're under the mercy of their respective divisions.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Phil promises to start taking risks but not this time, sorry. Next time. Next time he will take risks. Honest.

Scalebound was the risk. Losing millions of dollars for nothing but bad pr is a testament to just how big of a risk it was.

He's saying they'll continue taking risks and hopefully next time it works out. That's the thing about risks - the majority of the time they don't work out.

 

[SneakersSO]

I think blaming Phil is misguided. Microsoft doesn't have an "Xbox division", they have a hardware division that includes all their hardware, while their software is in entirely different division that is also shared with other stuff.

The problem is structural, Xbox isn't a wholly owned subsidiary like SIE or an independent corporation like Nintendo, they're under the mercy of their respective divisions.

There very much is a group of people within MS that is the Xbox Division.

 

[alt27]

So they have none of the marketing deals for next years big third party games, and have hardly any first party in pipeline.

What are they going to show at e3??

Bizzare "leadership"

 

[Toki767]

I think blaming Phil is misguided. Microsoft doesn't have an "Xbox division", they have a hardware division that includes all their hardware, while their software is in entirely different division that is also shared with other stuff.

The problem is structural, Xbox isn't a wholly owned subsidiary like SIE or an independent corporation like Nintendo, they're under the mercy of their respective divisions.

People can't give Phil Spencer all the credit in the world when things go right and then somehow try to absolve him of blame when things go wrong.

It doesn't work that way. And he knows it doesn't work that way.

 

[Servbot24]

Microsoft taking risk?

That will be a day.

They've taken, risks, it's just that they consistently take the wrong ones. Kinect, original XB1, etc.

It's when they stop taking risk that fans reward them.

 

[Alo0oy]

There very much is a group of people within MS that is the Xbox Division.

There is no Xbox division. There are Xbox staff, but there is no independent Xbox subsidiary.

 

[Head.spawn]

Calm it down... you act like they slapped your mother.

What if his mother was Kamiya?

Just sayin', you never know.

 

[Alo0oy]

People can't give Phil Spencer all the credit in the world when things go right and then somehow try to absolve him of blame when things go wrong.

It doesn't work that way. And he knows it doesn't work that way.

I never said he deserves all the credit when things go right. All I'm saying is Xbox isn't structured in a way where the "Xbox Division" works for its own interest, it's structured in a way to work for the interest of MS.

Which is probably very good for MS, not necessarily good for Xbox.

EDIT: SIE for example is a wholly owned subsidiary under Sony that runs Playstation independently of other divisions, Phil doesn't have that luxury. Xbox doesn't pull in ~12 billion in revenue every year like Playstation, which is why it doesn't have its own division like Playstation.

 

[MrMephistoX]

It's pointless on their part Japan doesn't care about Xbox and the only innovation in the west is from small indies and 3rd parties to some extent. Best they can hope for is a critical mass of consumers caring about graphics...and those consumers moved onto PC. Microsoft just doesn't want to invest in innovation in games: in short the Xbox brand is fucked.

PS PRO is even niche console gamers who care about graphics but not enough to hassle with building a PC.

 

[cakely]

Scalebound was the risk. Losing millions of dollars for nothing but bad pr is a testament to just how big of a risk it was.

He's saying they'll continue taking risks and hopefully next time it works out. That's the thing about risks - the majority of the time they don't work out.

The risk would have been letting Platinum finish Scalebound, and that's obviously what Phil is referring to.

They took the easy way out and cut their losses instead.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Microsoft taking risk?

That will be a day.

Honestly, Microsoft actually do take risks with game such as Rise of Tomb Raider, Sunset Overdrive, Recore, Ryse, Kinect, Japan, Japan, Japan, Lost Odyssey, Raiden 5, Blue Dragon, etc. Problem is, it rarely pays off for them.

 

[The 8-Bit Raider]

So owning a game console is the same as marriage to you huh? That's a sad point of view.

My apologies, in hindsight, my anology was made in poor taste. No, I don't equate the two by any means but the experience of just letting something go after a while does hold some relevance.

In any case, to go back on topic, MS will certainly need to take more risks in order for their product to evolve and be more attractive to the consumer with a varied taste in gaming experiences.

 

[Astral Dog]

Calm it down... you act like they slapped your mother.

Fuck Trump too. a n d fuck YOU

Spoiler

 

[Iva Demilcol]

It would be pretty good if MS (or anyone) just decided to greenlight AA games from now on and make sure they receive some kind of attention so they are not sent to die. Those games used to be fun because devs had some degree of freedom and since their budget was limited they could coexist with big names and still sell. It's much better than creating AAA titles that have to sell millions of units to just recover the amount of money invested in their creation...

 

[Yekshemesh]

Maybe MS working on an exclusive deal for the rumored Splinter Cell Reboot.

 

[Duxxy3]

So how did uncharted 1 get a sequel along with Knack of all games? Those games didnt set the work on fire, one sold very little it's first outing, the other sold alright for a launch title but was ripped apart criticly and yet both got sequels. Same goes for motorstorm pacific rift game did not sell great, and yet got a third game and couple spin offs.

You can't grow if you don't at least give it a shot and learn from it. They didn't learn anything by throwing in the towel after one game.

I'm willing to bet that Quantum Break, alone, cost more to develop than Knack and Uncharted 1.

I don't think Recore was very expensive to develop. It came out in a reasonable timeframe. My guess is that we don't see another Recore game for a few reasons - it didn't review very well, it didn't sell well and it doesn't have multiplayer of any kind.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Honestly, Microsoft actually do take risks with game such as Rise of Tomb Raider, Sunset Overdrive, Recore, Ryse, Lost Odyssey, Raiden 5, Blue Dragon, etc. Problem is, it rarely pays off for them.

No, the problem is they seem to want every game they make to sell HaloForzaGears-levels, if not they abandon them. They keep looking for lightning in a bottle and don't seem to realize it doesn't work that way 99.9% of the time.

 

[Papacheeks]

I'm going to assume Knack sold well enough compared to development cost and the help it got being a launch "kids" game, a niche that it had to fill.

Uncharted sold 2 million (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps...led-god-of-war-iii-due-in-march/1100-6210509/), those numbers were from 2009, a year and a half after it was released, so no idea how long it took. For a new IP on the ps3 seems good if we compare it to how 2m for bloodborne now is seen as good

I was talking Uncharted 1 which didn't sell well. Compared to how much it cost to make. That was the whole point of my post, MS gives up after one game is it doesn't sell. Sunset overdrive didn't sell well part of it was because 2014 was just after that whole debacle and they didn't promote that game well even with the bundle.

Sunset, Chromehounds, among many one off games dont get sequel even if they reviewed well critically.

Sony has it's fair share of flops but sometimes if they see potential they give it another go. Motorstorm Pacific rim sold less than the first by alot, and they still gave it another game and multiple spinoffs.

 

[JesseEwiak]

The risk would have been letting Platinum finish Scalebound, and that's obviously what Phil is referring to.

They took the easy way out and cut their losses instead.

What if Platinum told them it take 18 more months and Microsoft had seen no improvement in the game in months for example? Are you honor bound to never cancel a game once you release it?

Sony has it's fair share of flops but sometimes if they see potential they give it another go. Motorstorm Pacific rim sold less than the first by alot, and they still gave it another game and multiple spinoffs.

And I'd say, notice which company has billions in cash and which company is basically held together by tape and string. It's not the "right" thing to say, but yes, sometimes you have to look at the bottom line. Giving Motorstorm spinoffs was probably a dumb idea.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

The risk would have been letting Platinum finish Scalebound, and that's obviously what Phil is referring to.

They took the easy way out and cut their losses instead.

So if you're saying he's referring to risk as always finishing a game completely you're also saying he's promising that every game from now on will be finished? Even with all the bad news right now I don't think he would be that dumb to ever promise that.

This isn't the first game to get cancelled and it won't be the last.

 

[Nightengale]

Is Phil the only person to blame for all the incidents & lack of action that has clouded Xbox's current situation? Probably not. But as he said, being the head of Xbox, he bears the tip of the spear and brunt of the responsibility.

I sincerely hope what the insiders have been hinting in regards to lack of big & new unexpected announcements is not true, because honestly 2017 is kinda the make-or-break point where we should stop giving Phil a pass because if we look at video games development as a 3-5 years journey, we're approaching the 4 year mark of his tenure.

I made this in response to Welfare asking about games greenlit after Phil took over, and anecdotally, I think the ones in green are ones that are greenlit after Phil took over. Orange is uncertain, since the time when Xbox bought Gears and gave it to Black Tusk is blurry in the early 2014 period. And not sure when Sea of Thieves got greenlit too.

Not a very nice picture in terms of announcements. If anything, E3 this year needs to doubly impress because last year was pretty weak in terms of announcements.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

No, the problem is they seem to want every game they make to sell HaloForzaGears-levels, if not they abandon them. They keep looking for lightning in a bottle and don't seem to realize it doesn't work that way 99.9% of the time.

Good point. They do not give IP's and franchises a chance to grow. Sony continued to support games like Killzone and MotorStorm even if they didn't have the best figures. I also noticed if new IP's do not sell millions, they chances of it getting a sequel are typically slim or impossible which isn't fair.

 

[trixx]

Hasn't he been saying that for years?

yeah it's one thing to talk and another to actually abide by what you are saying.

Microsoft most likely see's it as wasting money to create more first party games and divisions but that's how you get people interested in the platform

 

[Papacheeks]

I'm willing to bet that Quantum Break, alone, cost more to develop than Knack and Uncharted 1.

I don't think Recore was very expensive to develop. It came out in a reasonable timeframe. My guess is that we don't see another Recore game for a few reasons - it didn't review very well, it didn't sell well and it doesn't have multiplayer of any kind.

Uncharted 1 actually did cost quit a bit because of all the mo-cap they did for that game along with it being a launch window game. Uncharted was in the 20-30 Million range. Which isn't chump change especially in 2005-2007.

 

[ironcreed]

I am not going to crucify them for cancelling a game that was obviously having issues. But I do want to see them diversify their library and take more risks with games like Scalebound. I mean Jesus, they need these kinds of games and need to build a new IP or two. It is good to at least see Phil acknowledge this, so I guess we shall see.

 

[The Salt Life]

No, the problem is they seem to want every game they make to sell HaloForzaGears-levels, if not they abandon them. They keep looking for lightning in a bottle and don't seem to realize it doesn't work that way 99.9% of the time.

Yeah but you can't say they never tried though.
They did, the sales just weren't there, why bring over games that won't sell a Xbox? Business wise that makes no sense.

How much is a Tales game going to sell on a Xbox? Not enough to warrant releasing it on there. If you want to play jrpg's you pick up a PS4 as your back up console.

There is a difference between lightning in a bottle and actually selling successfully.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

I made this in response to Welfare asking about games greenlit after Phil took over, and anecdotally, I think the ones in green are ones that are greenlit after Phil took over. Orange is uncertain, since the time when Xbox bought Gears and gave it to Black Tusk is blurry in the early 2014 period. And not sure when Sea of Thieves got greenlit too.

Not a very nice picture in terms of announcements. If anything, E3 this year needs to doubly impress because last year was pretty weak in terms of announcements.

You should take RotTR off green. I know Phil has said the timed exclusivity of that game was something the previous regime (Mattrick) did, and that Microsoft wouldn't do the same under Phil's control.

 

[Humdinger]

nm

 

[Kssio_Aug]

Like I said, I'm out of this thread. Seem to be a rather touchy group, but I guess I understand that. Think I will go hang out with the Nintendo fans for a bit. And just stay off MS threads for a bit

You keep saying things like this, as you also said in that Horizon thread:

That means it is good enough to get some fanboys of other systems nitpicking the details. Looks truly amazing from a graphical perspective, and you have to feel for the XBox fans. They get news of AAA cancellation, and PS4 fans get an AMAZING looking game

Just take it in stride.

For real... if your sources are any credible (and honestly, I don't think they are), you should at least be less taxactive to "xbox fans". You keep saying us / them (I might consider myself an xbox fan since I like it's games a lot) are like this and like that, but it seems you're the one ready to attack, even though you're supposedly trying to do something good, as you arrogantly stated before:

I was in the Scalebound thread, and gave XBox fans some hope with a possible Scorpio delay I heard about. A delay would mean a better CPU for the box, so none of them really seem that upset about it. Personally, it might be better for them...

You're not giving people hope spreading rumours out there, specially with such a rude attitude. It seems to me that the last thing you're trying is to be informative.

 

[Papacheeks]

What if Platinum told them it take 18 more months and Microsoft had seen no improvement in the game in months for example? Are you honor bound to never cancel a game once you release it?



And I'd say, notice which company has billions in cash and which company is basically held together by tape and string. It's not the "right" thing to say, but yes, sometimes you have to look at the bottom line. Giving Motorstorm spinoffs was probably a dumb idea.

It's what killed Evolution studios, not the spin offs but the sequels they themselves made Driveclub was just the nail in the coffin for them.

 

[daTRUballin]

You're thinking of the past. I'm saying Rare are a non-entity in the present. They've been a non-entity for a long, long time, to the point where many would feel as if they were shut down already. Sure, people would be upset, but the sad thing is it wouldn't even have any impact on Microsoft Games' output.

So you're saying if Rare were shut down, it wouldn't garner as big of a reaction as Lionhead closing down or Scalebound being cancelled, or perhaps even more? Are you serious right now?

when people talk about "Rare" are any of those people that worked at Rare even still there? Rare might as well just be a name at this point

Yeah, I think most of them are gone. It's definitely just a name at this point.

That said, as someone who was never that big on Rare outside of Banjo Kazooie, Sea of Thieves looks pretty darn cool. I'd like to see Microsoft continue that risk.

So? And? So just because the old employees are gone, it means the new employees can't make a name for themselves just like the old employees did before them? How are they just "a name"? Companies change employees all the time. Does this mean all developers are "just a name" then?

 

[Nightengale]

You should take RotTR off green. I know Phil has said the timed exclusivity of that game was something the previous regime (Mattrick) did, and that Microsoft wouldn't do the same under Phil's control.

Can you find me this interview?

Because the interview I remember is one where Phil talked about how he saw this as a good opportunity since they don't have their own action adventure title.

And Dead Rising 4 timed exclusivity is a thing so yeah.

 

[_Clash_]

I think blaming Phil is misguided. Microsoft doesn't have an "Xbox division", they have a hardware division that includes all their hardware, while their software is in entirely different division that is also shared with other stuff.

The problem is structural, Xbox isn't a wholly owned subsidiary like SIE or an independent corporation like Nintendo, they're under the mercy of their respective divisions.

I don't think people are blaming Phil.

I think people just realising he's paid 300k/yr to be full of shit and hot air or worse yet, a man of the people MS patsy to blindside from a shrinking game division

 

[Sydle]

I never said he deserves all the credit when things go right. All I'm saying is Xbox isn't structured in a way where the "Xbox Division" works for its own interest, it's structured in a way to work for the interest of MS.

Which is probably very good for MS, not necessarily good for Xbox.

EDIT: SIE for example is a wholly owned subsidiary under Sony that runs Playstation independently of other divisions, Phil doesn't have that luxury. Xbox doesn't pull in ~12 billion in revenue every year like Playstation, which is why it doesn't have its own division like Playstation.

Yep, specifically for the interest of Windows, which is why Phil reports to Terry Myerson, the EVP of the OS Group.

From the MS CEO:

I just think about three things. There are a few other efforts we do, and I've been very clear about those efforts and why they exist and why we are proud of them. But, there are three products in all of this. There is Windows, there is Office 365, and there is Azure. That's it. Everything else to me is, of course, you can call them features, you can call them parts of that... - Link

Finally, we will build the best instantiation of this vision through our Windows device platform and our devices, which will serve to delight our customers, increase distribution of our services, drive gross margin, enable fundamentally new product categories, and generate opportunity for the Windows ecosystem more broadly. We will pursue our gaming ambition as part of this broader vision for Windows and increase its appeal to consumers. We will bring together Xbox Live and our first-party gaming efforts across PC, console, mobile and new categories like HoloLens into one integrated play. - Link

 

[Iacobellis]

At this point, it's looking like the Scorpio will actually be a next gen console and a lot of development efforts are being put towards that. I mean, the Xbox was dropped like a bad habit when the 360 launched.

 

[Apathy]

I was talking Uncharted 1 which didn't sell well. Compared to how much it cost to make. That was the whole point of my post, MS gives up after one game is it doesn't sell. Sunset overdrive didn't sell well part of it was because 2014 was just after that whole debacle and they didn't promote that game well even with the bundle.

Sunset, Chromehounds, among many one off games dont get sequel even if they reviewed well critically.

Sony has it's fair share of flops but sometimes if they see potential they give it another go. Motorstorm Pacific rim sold less than the first by alot, and they still gave it another game and multiple spinoffs.

Dude, read the link, he said uncharted. that was from E3 in the summer of 2009, Uncharted 2 was not released till October of 2009. Also, Sony themselves aid it was a hit and who knows how much it cost to make, I can't find any info on that

Uncharted 1 actually did cost quit a bit because of all the mo-cap they did for that game along with it being a launch window game. Uncharted was in the 20-30 Million range. Which isn't chump change especially in 2005-2007.

PS3 release -

JP: November 11, 2006
NA: November 17, 2006
PAL: March 23, 2007

Drakes Fortune release -

NA: November 20, 2007
AU: December 6, 2007
EU: December 7, 2007

yeah, even if you go by pal release of the ps3, that is not anywhere in the launch window

Where is your claim for 20-30m to create coming from?

 

[KingV]

I think blaming Phil is misguided. Microsoft doesn't have an "Xbox division", they have a hardware division that includes all their hardware, while their software is in entirely different division that is also shared with other stuff.

The problem is structural, Xbox isn't a wholly owned subsidiary like SIE or an independent corporation like Nintendo, they're under the mercy of their respective divisions.

I can see that and have seen similar problems at other companies. Phil is probablh the Xbox "boss" and has some sort of marketing folks + a fair number of matrix support people in the hardware and software sides that work for people not 100% dedicated to Xbox.

It's weird, because Xbox is a decently sized business and it seems like MS is happy to run it into the ground.

 

[ironcreed]

At this point, it's looking like the Scorpio will actually be a next gen console and a lot of development efforts are being put towards that. I mean, the Xbox was dropped like a bad habit when the 360 launched.

Who knows, but at least we can take all of our games with us. 360 games as well.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

Have you not been reading her posts in the last day or so?

"My friends at Microsoft say..." is exactly the kind of thing that gets vetted. Especially with a rumour like "Scorpio is going to be delayed".

My post wasn't specifically about the hire thing. That hire post was merely what made me think she has no sources whatsoever.

All these "insiders" that seem to come out of the woodwork with negative MS rumours are getting tiresome.

At this point I'm just going to assume he's lying. After Verendus, I consider all "insiders" to be frauds until they have a proven track record.

 

[Alo0oy]

I can see that and have seen similar problems at other companies. Phil is probablh the Xbox "boss" and has some sort of marketing folks + a fair number of matrix support people in the hardware and software sides that work for people not 100% dedicated to Xbox.

It's weird, because Xbox is a decently sized business and it seems like MS is happy to run it into the ground.

Which works well for MS, or windows specifically, but sometimes what's best for Xbox is in conflict with what's best for Windows or what's best for Surface. That's why Xbox needs to be spun off into its own wholly owned Subsidiary.

 

[robotrock]

So? And? So just because the old employees, it means the new employees can't make a name for themselves just like the old employees did before them? How are they just "a name"? Companies change employees all the time. Does this mean all developers are "just a name" then?

God no, absolutely not. I never want to see studios getting shut down and have people lose their jobs. You're crazy. The Rare name just means something else than it used to. I hope Microsoft supports all of their studios forever.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I don't think people are blaming Phil.

I think people just realising he's paid 300k/yr to be full of shit and hot air or worse yet, a man of the people MS patsy to blindside from a shrinking game division

He gets paid 300k a year? You got proof to back that up?

 

[Kaelan]

So they have none of the marketing deals for next years big third party games, and have hardly any first party in pipeline.

What are they going to show at e3??

Bizzare "leadership"

Another halo and forza like they always do. It's not gonna cut it anymore.