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Vehicle plows into counter protesters in Charlottesville

T

thill1985

Banned
Rupetta said:
To quote Existential Comics:

"Middle class, white liberals who think "rational debate" will solve everything forget that sometimes we have genuine enemies. With real enemies you can't resolve things by giving them a platform, engaging in discourse, or understanding them. You fight against them."

I'll add to this that people must realize that neonazis do not have legitimacy, you cannot engage in politics with them, they are not legitimate adversaries that you can engage in political disagreement and exist with them. They must be met with antagonism not agonism.
Click to expand...

This is a dangerous mischaracterization of things. Nobody needs to suggest they have legitimacy. Nor do we need to imagine that those pushing for peace are somehow naive or foolish or that they are too dumb to recognize enemies. Nobody is suggesting that rational debate will convert a Neo Nazi into an intelligent human being. What it WILL do, however, is allow Neo Nazis to alienate audiences. We are not interested in how the politics affects the Neo Nazis. We are looking to use their toxic ideas against them.

You cannot set out on a strategy that will alienate the same demographics you intend to pull to your side. At least, not if you are wanting to succeed. No matter how much angst you have behind you, your message is worthless if your retaliation shuts the eyes and ears of your audience.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
thill1985 said:
This is a dangerous mischaracterization of things. Nobody needs to suggest they have legitimacy. Nor do we need to imagine that those pushing for peace are somehow naive or foolish or that they are too dumb to recognize enemies. Nobody is suggesting that rational debate will convert a Neo Nazi into an intelligent human being. What it WILL do, however, is allow Neo Nazis to alienate audiences. We are not interested in how the politics affects the Neo Nazis. We are looking to use their toxic ideas against them.

You cannot set out on a strategy that will alienate the same demographics you intend to pull to your side. At least, not if you are wanting to succeed. No matter how much angst you have behind you, your message is worthless if your retaliation shuts the eyes and ears of your audience.
Click to expand...

How's that working out so far?

There's this weird idea that the Nazis need to be some kind of majority to be harmful, that as long as most of America thinks that they're scum they can't do too much

No. Even as a tiny minority they're capable of horrible violence
 
O

Oriel

Member
The Technomancer said:
How's that working out so far?

There's this weird idea that the Nazis need to be some kind of majority to be harmful, that as long as most of America thinks that they're scum they can't do too much

No. Even as a tiny minority they're capable of horrible violence
Click to expand...

The problem isn't a majority of Americans are Nazis, it's that millions happen to sympathise with some of their aims and objectives at some level. I mean, you have the goddamn President being a silent supporter while Fox News runs opinions of how everyone should try and emphasise with these Nazis!
 
M

More_Badass

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
And what you'll more immediately see is continued voter suppression so they their power is preserved as much as possible. That's well in progress.

From there it will progress to denial of services and imprisonment at least. On this current path, I can see that within 10 years.
Click to expand...
This so much. And I fear things will never change because 1) people trust too much in the notion that check, balances, and democracy will keep everything right, "this is America, it can't happen here" 2) it's always dressed up by the veneer of democratic politics, security and taxes and freedom and whatnot, and 3) any attempts at real change gets portrayed as us vs them, left vs right politics, that lets the right always demonize liberals, democrats, and progressives as wanting to destroy American values and the Constitution
 
A

Akronis

Member
Oriel said:
The problem isn't a majority of Americans are Nazis, it's that millions happen to sympathise with some of their aims and objectives at some level. I mean, you have the goddamn President being a silent supporter while Fox News runs opinions of how everyone should try and emphasise with these Nazis!
Click to expand...

There's too many people that just don't give a fuck.

We have centrist dumbasses saying "both sides are the same," we have white moderates who couldn't be arsed to do a thing about it. Apathy allows this shit to fester.
 
S

shawnbuddy

Member
You know, right wing commentators can't wash their hands of this as some lone wolf tactic. The idea that it's justified to run over protestors who block roads is a common right wing meme, one that started gaining a lot of traction around Standing Rock and might have influenced this terrorist.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
thill1985 said:
This is a dangerous mischaracterization of things. Nobody needs to suggest they have legitimacy. Nor do we need to imagine that those pushing for peace are somehow naive or foolish or that they are too dumb to recognize enemies. Nobody is suggesting that rational debate will convert a Neo Nazi into an intelligent human being. What it WILL do, however, is allow Neo Nazis to alienate audiences. We are not interested in how the politics affects the Neo Nazis. We are looking to use their toxic ideas against them.

You cannot set out on a strategy that will alienate the same demographics you intend to pull to your side. At least, not if you are wanting to succeed. No matter how much angst you have behind you, your message is worthless if your retaliation shuts the eyes and ears of your audience.
Click to expand...
You know what happened the last time we were up against Nazis? We murdered those motherfuckers, and the ones we didn't we threw in irons.

You think there weren't people speaking out against Hitler? You think there wasn't an alternative? You think the reason Hitler and the Nazis' hateful ideology won out was simply that they put up a better argument? The implication is horrifying, but only as much as the truth - treat this ideology as worthy of consideration and debate and they will gain followers, and they will eventually overtake you. Just look at Trump.

I'm not about to advocate that we start literally killing Nazis, but fuuuuuuck no I will not start talking to them. If they want to recognize the error of their ways they have to sort that out for themselves first. We have too much shit to do to concern ourselves about reaching out to the poor white supremacists.
 
K

kmax

Member
Albert+Einstein+2.png
Click to expand...

A salient point from one of the greatest minds of our generation.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
thill1985 said:
This is a dangerous mischaracterization of things. Nobody needs to suggest they have legitimacy. Nor do we need to imagine that those pushing for peace are somehow naive or foolish or that they are too dumb to recognize enemies. Nobody is suggesting that rational debate will convert a Neo Nazi into an intelligent human being. What it WILL do, however, is allow Neo Nazis to alienate audiences. We are not interested in how the politics affects the Neo Nazis. We are looking to use their toxic ideas against them.

You cannot set out on a strategy that will alienate the same demographics you intend to pull to your side. At least, not if you are wanting to succeed. No matter how much angst you have behind you, your message is worthless if your retaliation shuts the eyes and ears of your audience.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to relitigate anything here, but this was literally the Democratic strategy last year -- rely on most of America rising up as one and rejecting the politics of white supremacy.

This did not happen.

This was a very big learning experience for me.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Rupetta said:
To quote Existential Comics:

"Middle class, white liberals who think "rational debate" will solve everything forget that sometimes we have genuine enemies. With real enemies you can't resolve things by giving them a platform, engaging in discourse, or understanding them. You fight against them."

I'll add to this that people must realize that neonazis do not have legitimacy, you cannot engage in politics with them, they are not legitimate adversaries that you can engage in political disagreement and exist with them. They must be met with antagonism not agonism.
Click to expand...

No shit?

You also can't allow yourself to be baited by them into forced errors, which is all they can hope for. Your fight isn't against them, but FOR the liberal institutions and the republic they're trying to tear down.
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
shawnbuddy said:
You know, right wing commentators can't wash their hands of this as some lone wolf tactic. The idea that it's justified to run over protestors who block roads is a common right wing meme, one that started gaining a lot of traction around Standing Rock and might have influenced this terrorist.
Click to expand...
"Meme"? At least one red state tried to make it a law.
 
R

Rupetta

Member
thill1985 said:
This is a dangerous mischaracterization of things. Nobody needs to suggest they have legitimacy. Nor do we need to imagine that those pushing for peace are somehow naive or foolish or that they are too dumb to recognize enemies. Nobody is suggesting that rational debate will convert a Neo Nazi into an intelligent human being. What it WILL do, however, is allow Neo Nazis to alienate audiences. We are not interested in how the politics affects the Neo Nazis. We are looking to use their toxic ideas against them.

You cannot set out on a strategy that will alienate the same demographics you intend to pull to your side..
Click to expand...

There is no intent to pull white supremacist to our side, so in that sense it is not evident which demographic this is.

On what political platforms do you intend to have a rational debate with neonazis that will expose them and pull the said demographic to you? If you do not recognize their legitimacy and right to engage in agonistic politics there can be no platform.
 
G

gabbo

Member
platocplx said:
This all I want to see. Shame these bastards and send them back to the cesspools where. They came from. Him cowering was golden.
Click to expand...
Isnt the problem that their cesspools are other towns like that in the southern US where theyve seeped into the pillars of power and thier ideology is normalized?
 
J

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
More_Badass said:
This so much. And I fear things will never change because 1) people trust too much in the notion that check, balances, and democracy will keep everything right, "this is America, it can't happen here" 2) it's always dressed up by the veneer of democratic politics, security and taxes and freedom and whatnot, and 3) any attempts at real change gets portrayed as us vs them, left vs right politics, that lets the right always demonize liberals, democrats, and progressives as wanting to destroy American values and the Constitution
Click to expand...

I think America has to hit rock bottom. If actual factual Nazi rallies are happening and people are literally running over counter protesters I don't know what rock bottom looks like to America. There has to be a significant stand for deceny and tolerance at some point.
 
I

Isaac Otherworld

Member
D i Z said:
You know how they really fucked up? They killed someone from that community. They killed a daughter from that place. And she was also white. Otherwise he would have gotten away with that press conference.
Click to expand...
This community showed up to counter protest these fucks before they were attacked. It's why they were attacked.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Aaron Strife said:
You know what happened the last time we were up against Nazis? We murdered those motherfuckers, and the ones we didn't we threw in irons.

You think there weren't people speaking out against Hitler? You think there wasn't an alternative? You think the reason Hitler and the Nazis' hateful ideology won out was simply that they put up a better argument? The implication is horrifying, but only as much as the truth - treat this ideology as worthy of consideration and debate and they will gain followers, and they will eventually overtake you. Just look at Trump.

I'm not about to advocate that we start literally killing Nazis, but fuuuuuuck no I will not start talking to them. If they want to recognize the error of thheir ways they have to sort that out for themselves first. We have too much shit to do to concern ourselves about reaching out to the poor white supremacists.
Click to expand...


Go on. What other brilliant thesis did you learn from the history channel?
 
J

JBourne

maybe tomorrow it rains
joe2187 said:
The Nazi Rally organizer tries to give a press conference. The expected happens. He runs like a fucking coward.

https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/896820888930332672
Click to expand...
Having grown up in Charlottesville, this was a difficult weekend. The attack yesterday was literally feet from the Twisted Branch Tea Bazaar, where I used to hang out 4 or 5 nights a week. This will always be my home, and I visit a couple weekends a month to see family and stop by the Twisted Branch for some hummus and tea. Seeing all of this has been heartbreaking, infuriating, and eye-opening.

The reaction this nazi cunt received when he tried to hold his little press conference is exactly what I wanted to see from Charlottesville. I hope he faces the same thing in Boston, and I hope it only gets worse each time he tries to show his face on public. Fuck every nazi, and fuck every person who claims to be defending their heritage while marching with them. Every person who came to Charlottesville for this rally can eat shit and die alone in the dark.
 
D

DrMungo

Member
pigeon said:
I'm not trying to relitigate anything here, but this was literally the Democratic strategy last year -- rely on most of America rising up as one and rejecting the politics of white supremacy.

This did not happen.

This was a very big learning experience for me.
Click to expand...
This was the most heartbreaking part. In addition to the "wink wink" approval of the KKK, the guy was the face of the Birther farce and yet that was not disqualifying enough.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Oriel said:
The problem isn't a majority of Americans are Nazis, it's that millions happen to sympathise with some of their aims and objectives at some level. I mean, you have the goddamn President being a silent supporter while Fox News runs opinions of how everyone should try and emphasise with these Nazis!
Click to expand...

And even more won't care or make light of it.
 
P

platocplx

Member
Just more evidence of how abhorrent people who frequent the daily stormer are. https://twitter.com/paxthedog/status/896817000441405444

I refuse to ever debate with or reason with anyone like this.

gabbo said:
Isnt the problem that their cesspools are other towns like that in the southern US where theyve seeped into the pillars of power and thier ideology is normalized?
Click to expand...
This is true. And we need to beat them back and also dismantle the power the states they live in have to enable this shit. A lot of this has festered because they do a lot of shit at a state level.
 
T

The Kree

Banned
mullet2000 said:
"Simply for being a Nazi"

...
Click to expand...

Quote of the day. Can't stop thinking about it.

This is the bullshit we're up against. Can't convince one stupid motherfucker on a forum with facts and historical precedent, but we're still somehow expected to be able to convince the whole fucking country to not embrace Nazism.

OK. Sure.
 
J

Jakten

Member
joe2187 said:
The Nazi Rally organizer tries to give a press conference. The expected happens. He runs like a fucking coward.

https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/896820888930332672
Click to expand...

For those tut-tuting violence, this is a violent reaction. Violence doesn't only mean killing someone. These people showed they were not taking his shit and scared the fuck out of him. Think about this next time you want to whine about violence. Notice how he is still on the podium spouting his shit?
 
IaN_GAF

IaN_GAF

Member
PudieRSC said:
There's a difference between defending yourself or someone else from an actual attack and beating the shit out of a Nazi simply for being a Nazi. Which is what most of you guys seem to be ok with.
Click to expand...

Nazi's kept people in concentration camps, where they were murdered or worked to death.
Nazi's gassed people, because that is an efficient and effective way to get rid of large numbers.
Nazi's tortured and experimented on people they deemed subhuman.
And just in case you think that this is ancient history far removed from our current lives: Nazi's took my grandfather and put him in one of those camps.

Nobody is "simply" a Nazi. If a person wants to be a Nazi, the list above is theirs to own. Stand by it. And don't dare fucking cry when you are beaten to shit because of it. You deserve worse.
 
D

D i Z

Member
Isaac Otherworld said:
This community showed up to counter protest these fucks before they were attacked. It's why they were attacked.
Click to expand...

Friday night it was a handful of college kids huddled around a statue surrounded by nazi's.
Saturday, Antifa BLM and others came to hold the line.
Today, after her death (listen to the video) the community got involved very directly.
I'm not saying that they weren't there before. But dads weren't out there throwing punches at these fools until one of there own took one. Fuse lit.
 
C

CHC

Member
PudieRSC said:
There's a difference between defending yourself or someone else from an actual attack and beating the shit out of a Nazi simply for being a Nazi. Which is what most of you guys seem to be ok with.
Click to expand...

If I could get away with it, physically and legally, I'd beat the fuck out of someone who was a Nazi "for simply being" one.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Jakten said:
For those tut-tuting violence, this is a violent reaction. Violence doesn't only mean killing someone. These people showed they were not taking his shit and scared the fuck out of him. Think about this next time you want to whine about violence. Notice how he is still on the podium spouting his shit?
Click to expand...

That wasn't violence. And if this is the extent of what people calling for violence are expecting as a response they need to express themselves more clearly and without allusions to world wars.

That response is exactly what I want to see as someone advocating non-violence. No punches or rocks or sticks or guns. No physical injury. Being pushed into some shrubbery is acceptable.
 
P

platocplx

Member
Toxi said:
I can't find words to really express how I feel about these garbage people.
Click to expand...
Listen. I'm not arguing their points when I'm around it. There is no place for them to be like this if I were present. Like I never ever want to hear both sides are the same when one is actively abhorrent and our violence is a direct reaction to this and we are just giving them the energy right back.
 
D

D i Z

Member
IaN_GAF said:
Nazi's kept people in concentration camps, where they were murdered or worked to death.
Nazi's gassed people, because that is an efficient and effective way to get rid of large numbers.
Nazi's tortured and experimented on people they deemed subhuman.
And just in case you think that this is ancient history far removed from our current lives: Nazi's took my grandfather and put him in one of those camps.

Nobody is "simply" a Nazi. If a person wants to be a Nazi, the list above is theirs to own. Stand by it. And don't dare fucking cry when you are beaten to shit because of it. You deserve worse.
Click to expand...

You missed the Nazi doctors and scientists that were recruited around the world to continue their fucked up experiments and atrocities.
 
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