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[MIMIC]

beast nadal on the other side of the net was basically giving him walk overs all the way to the final. in 2011 djokovic was his dom though so he bowed down. in 2008 federer had mono.

pretty sure that covers it.

My point was you using Nadal's most recent result as some type of indicator of what type of opponent Djokovic had to beat in the final.

Completely and utterly irrelevant and disingenuous. Would be like me saying that Nadal fluked Wimbledon (or Berdych fluked a final) because Federer couldn't get past the 2nd round this year.

 

[Acorn]

I didn't say England pays more I'm saying, even in the fact they paying even that's still half of your economic flow being removed from you and should you fail in these economic times your country may end up needing a bail out likely the same both ways.

Also plenty of concessions were in fact made for Scotland's current position by the labour party for your country to remain regardless of your output you are no island. It's seems short sighted and foolish for your country to want independence now. Even if you unanimously want independence it makes more sense to do so when the world's economy is far more to stable as a safety net in case things go badly.

If your independent govern does well then great if it does badly your going to be feeling the economic pain for a very long time.


Anyway next few grand slams should be very interesting.

So give up the chance because the UK will be oh so happy to give us more powers or another chance at some future date? Fuck that, the chance is now. Don't care whether the time is right or not we'll be better off managing our own affairs in the long run.

I really don't see how anyone of any political persuasion can look at the difference socially and politcally between us and think we're better off.

England will be better off without us kicking and screaming about being dragged to the right and we won't be getting dragged to the right so we'll be better off with no bogey man to blame.

Its seriously WIN-WIN for everyone involved. I was anti independence until I seen how little a chance we have of ever getting the policies we want.

 

[OriginalThinking]

If people here are suggesting that Djokovic is weak on grass (2 Wimbledon finals, really?) then there's some real cognitive dissonance going on here. I don't think Djokovic was at the peak of his powers today, but what good players do (and Murray is a damn good player) is punish any weakness in their oppositions game. Well deserved victory banishing some of the psychological weaknesses that pervaded his early career. I'd expect Murray to go on and win quite a few more Slams now.

 

[szaromir]

Oh. I didn't notice that it was against Federer. I just saw it started from the beginning and just closed it.

Djokovic pushed. So what? Federer pushed against Djokovic in the 2011 Australian Open (tried to change his tactics).

Does that make them "pushers"? This whole "here are a few matches that prove my point" is not really working. Murray built his entire career off of pushing. Djokovic didn't.

It isn't "just a few matches though". It doesn't bother me as I have nothing against defensive tennis (at my club everybody just bashes the ball in matches because it's just easier than effective anticipation and movement), I just don't understand why Djokovic fans are hellbent on labeling Murray as "pusher"when their favorite player plays a very similar brand of tennis.

Seriously, this whole Djokovic is a pusher thing is nonexistent. People who don't like him will call him a pusher, even though to the actual tennis world, it isn't true.

So is the case with Murray.

 

[ShogunX]

Indeed, I'll stop.

Holy shit take it to a PM or start your own thread/find a relevant one. Ridiculous when people shit up threads like this.

Anyway pleased for Murray.

 

[Hige]

I really feel bad for Djokovich. Everyone seem to root for Murray just because he hasn't win a Wimbledon yet. How would you perform when you know the whole world is against you?

I think the crowd was worse during the Murray/Janowicz semifinal. They were going crazy during double faults and it was JJ's first semifinal. I think this happened before all his whining about the roof, too. After that the crowd was ruthless lol.

 

[MIMIC]

If people here are suggesting that Djokovic is weak on grass (2 Wimbledon finals, really?) then there's some real cognitive dissonance going on here. I don't think Djokovic was at the peak of his powers today, but what good players do (and Murray is a damn good player) is punish any weakness in their oppositions game. Well deserved victory banishing some of the psychological weaknesses that pervaded his early career. I'd expect Murray to go on and win quite a few more Slams now.

Djokovic on grass is like Murray on clay (and Nadal on hard): they don't suck, but they are extremely vulnerable to inferior players.

It isn't "just a few matches though". It doesn't bother me as I have nothing against defensive tennis (at my club everybody just bashes the ball in matches because it's just easier than effective anticipation and movement), I just don't understand why Djokovic fans are hellbent on labeling Murray as "pusher"when their favorite player plays a very similar brand of tennis.


So is the case with Murray.

Type "Novak Djokovic push" into Google without hitting enter and see what you get.
Type "Andy Murray push" into Google and see what you get.

Matter of fact, just type "Andy Murray pu" into Google and see what you get.

Brad Gilbert, Murray's former coach, called Murray a pusher. I am not making this up. Murray is a pusher.

 

[Tc91]

 

[killer_clank]

The salt in this thread is ridiculous.

Andy Murray won Wimbledon. And he deserved to, he was the better player.

Get over it.

 

[Globox_82]

I think this might be it from Novak. Since 2012 things have not been the same. Aging Roger is not danger anymore, neither is Rafa at this point (unless on clay). What is more important is Andy. He keeps on getting better and has more hunger for wins then novak. This is my bold prediction. Andy will win USO and AO. Rafa will win FO, maybe just maybe novak takes that one if Rafa is completly done 11 months from now. Andy starts dominating W for few years and takes Wimbledon again. At the point USO 2014 It's hard to say. But I think out of next 4 slams (USO, AO, W) andy will win at least 2, probably 3.
And I think Andy is next world nr1. very soon, before year ends.
On top of that his game annoys Novak, that is why I pick him to dominate.
Even before Wimbledon. They played Shangai, novak was frustrated, Andy should have won that match. WTF Andy was set up and break up. AO open Andy set up and TB, if andy won that second set TB he would have won AO. Wimbledon he dominated Novak.

I am novak fan, but this really looks like Andy time in next 2 years.

 

[szaromir]

Type "Novak Djokovic push" into Google without hitting enter and see what you get.
Type "Andy Murray push" into Google and see what you get.

Matter of fact, just type "Andy Murray pu" into Google and see what you get.

Brad Gilbert, Murray's former coach, called Murray a pusher. I am not making this up. Murray is a pusher.

I don't care what Gilbert says (although I follow him on tweeter to remind him about his H2H against Lendl whenever he alludes to a player being useless). Just because it's a poppular misconception, doesn't stop it being a misconception.

 

[MIMIC]

I don't care what Gilbert says (although I follow him on tweeter to remind him about his H2H against Lendl whenever he alludes to a player being useless). Just because it's a poppular misconception, doesn't stop it being a misconception.

A popular misconception? That's what you're going with?

OK. You refuse to consider evidence from an unbiased source. I'm done.

I think this might be it from Novak. Since 2012 things have not been the same. Aging Roger is not danger anymore, neither is Rafa at this point (unless on clay). What is more important is Andy. He keeps on getting better and has more hunger for wins then novak. This is my bold prediction. Andy will win USO and AO. Rafa will win FO, maybe just maybe novak takes that one if Rafa is completly done 11 months from now. Andy starts dominating W for few years and takes Wimbledon again. At the point USO 2014 It's hard to say. But I think out of next 4 slams (USO, AO, W) andy will win at least 2, probably 3.
And I think Andy is next world nr1. very soon, before year ends.
On top of that his game annoys Novak, that is why I pick him to dominate.
Even before Wimbledon. They played Shangai, novak was frustrated, Andy should have won that match. WTF Andy was set up and break up. AO open Andy set up and TB, if andy won that second set TB he would have won AO. Wimbledon he dominated Novak.

I am novak fan, but this really looks like Andy time in next 2 years.

Meh, I wouldn't lose hope just yet.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

What is pushing, and why do you two give such a fuck?

 

[Hige]

They're totes dating.

 

[Honey Bunny]

ENGLAND'S BRAVE ANDY MURRAY, WHAT A HERO

EBAM EBAM EBAM

 

[szaromir]

A popular misconception? That's what you're going with?

OK. You refuse to consider evidence from an unbiased source. I'm done.

Yup, there's nothing more to add, we'd be just going in circles. Although labeling an opinion as 'evidence' is hilarious.

 

[MIMIC]

What is pushing, and why do you two give such a fuck?

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

 

[Acorn]

They're totes dating.

Is that Henmans parents behind them?

 

[Ashes]

He won Wimbledon once, big fucking deal. Win it 3 times and then give him one for services to sport. If anything he should get a CBE or something like that, one win isnt deserving of being knighted

He is the greatest tennis player since Fred Perry. He is getting knighted sooner or later. He fricken won Wimbledon. I still can't believe it. wow.

 

[Acorn]

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

Who cares if it means he wins?

Thats all that matters. I'd rather play shit and win than play amazing and lose.

 

[Globox_82]

A popular misconception? That's what you're going with?

OK. You refuse to consider evidence from an unbiased source. I'm done.



Meh, I wouldn't lose hope just yet.

in last 7 slams novak played 5 finals, won only two...guess which one? AO 12,13. Could have lost both. Let's be honest here.

 

[MIMIC]

Yup, there's nothing more to add, we'd be just going in circles. Although labeling an opinion as 'evidence' is hilarious.

The opinion of an expert witness in testimony is evidence. DNA isn't the only evidence around. No disrespect but you seem to not know what is admissible as evidence in order to prove a point.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

Oh. I can see why you'd think Murray used to do that, he's been much more proactive in the last 2 or 3 years from what I've seen. He's still prone to going back into his defensive shell when he's under pressure, but still. And even then, its not as though that's all he does.

Whatever he's doing, its effective.

 

[Batigol]

Whoa, how did this thread turn into Scottish independence

 

[Ashes]

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

Yep. That's how you get to hold two of the four grand slams currently going.

Quote me the 'winners hit' stats again please. Quote me 'first serve points won' percentage again please.

edit: In fact show me any of the attacking stats from today's final please. I want to help djokovic as well. I like him.

 

[krYlon]

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

I'm sorry, but Djokovic did exactly the same against Berdych. Singling out Murray is just ridiculous. Novak and Andy have very similar games.

Murray was quite defensive today, but that's understandable everything considered. I've seen Murray be the aggressor against Novak in many matches (like Olympics semi).

 

[mclem]

Defensive tennis players who rely on the errors of others in order to win.

It's like turtling/camping in video games (turtling in fighting and camping in FPSs)

So basically, you're arguing that tennis should steal the Kudos system from Project Gotham Racing? Doesn't matter if you *technically* win, just as long as you were stylish about it!

 

[Ashes]

I'm sorry, but Djokovic did exactly the same against Berdych. Singling out Murray is just ridiculous. Novak and Andy have very similar games.

Murray was quite defensive today, but that's understandable everything considered. I've seen Murray be the aggressor against Novak in many matches (like Olympics semi).

Maybe you and I watched different games but Murray won the tactics battle. Djokovic was playing the long game, moving Murray about, thinking about winning in five sets. Same reason he served and volleyed.

Too bad you actually have to win a set to get to five.

 

[Principate]

So give up the chance because the UK will be oh so happy to give us more powers or another chance at some future date? Fuck that, the chance is now. Don't care whether the time is right or not we'll be better off managing our own affairs in the long run.

I really don't see how anyone of any political persuasion can look at the difference socially and politcally between us and think we're better off.

England will be better off without us kicking and screaming about being dragged to the right and we won't be getting dragged to the right so we'll be better off with no bogey man to blame.

Its seriously WIN-WIN for everyone involved. I was anti independence until I seen how little a chance we have of ever getting the policies we want.

Under the current Tory government which is fairly universally disliked. The previous labour government gave you countless concessions in under to keep you part of the union. There's no promise that it will be the same if they get in, but it's makes logical sense to hang around. Country wide alteration like that is a one time thing after it goes there's no coming back and is the easiest way to ruin a countries economy long term.

As bad as things seem now short term negatives are never a good idea to base these decisions on. It's like whenever a western country invades a country ruled by dictatorship in order to bring "democracy" It's a great idea at the time, but the long term bloodshed and country wide instability often makes prevalent the lesser of two evils. Large country wide alterations should not be decided on current whims. Yes some decisions may not currently go your way but if o the unlucky circumstances your countries economy goes to crap is it even worth it?

Nationalist ideologies and polices are all well and good in theory but the welfare of the citizens on the ground are what really matters. do you honestly think the average scots quality of life will dramatically improve if it has independence now. Compare that to the large risks that would occur if the independence goes belly up. It doesn't make sense.

Ultimately I think it comes down to pride, and I think pride is the worst thing you can base decisions on.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Murray was the aggressor in today's match. Don't know how you can deny it. Look at first serve points won compared to second serve - for both players.

 

[kharma45]

He is the greatest tennis player since Fred Perry. He is getting knighted sooner or later. He fricken won Wimbledon. I still can't believe it. wow.

lol success to people's heads already. He might well some day but he will have to win an awful lot more.

 

[Certinty]

MensTennisForums is a great forum, there's a lot of trolling on it but if you learn to live with it and join in it's pretty fun.

 

[Ashes]

lol success to people's heads already. He might well some day but he will have to win an awful lot more.

Name a British player that is better?

 

[Sax Russel]

This was a fun way to set up the championship point he finally managed to take

 

[MIMIC]

So basically, you're arguing that tennis should steal the Kudos system from Project Gotham Racing? Doesn't matter if you *technically* win, just as long as you were stylish about it!

A win is a win.

 

[kharma45]

Name a British player that is better?

I don't see why that matters with regards to him getting a knighthood. It's nothing to do with him that no one else is on his level.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Reflection:


- I really want Federer to at least win 1 more grand slam before retiring. He is the GOAT to me personally, consistently better than all players mentioned below.

- Nadal's Physical Game it seems cannot match his aging body. This is confirmed now.

- Djoker's perfect game has diminished in the end of 2012, all he had this year was his presence, and with this win that is gone as well, People won't fear him anymore.

- Quite happy Murray got the win at wimbledon, he will never be as good as Peak Federer or Nadal or Djoker, he is already 26, an age where the dominance starts to wane, he peaked late but at least he peaked.


Have I got it right?

 

[Ashes]

I don't see why that matters with regards to him getting a knighthood. It's nothing to do with him that no one else is on his level.

Lol. You've stopped making sense.

 

[Acorn]

Reflection:


- I really want Federer to at least win 1 more grand slam before retiring. He is the GOAT to me personally, consistently better than all players mentioned below.

- Nadal's Physical Game it seems cannot match his aging body. This is confirmed now.

- Djoker's perfect game has diminished in the end of 2012, all he had this year was his presence, and with this win that is gone as well, People won't fear him anymore.

- Quite happy Murray got the win at wimbledon, he will never be as good as Peak Federer or Nadal or Djoker, he is already 26, an age where the dominance starts to wane, he peaked late but at least he peaked.


Have I got it right?

Even though thats probably unquestionably true, I still hold love for Sampras. He will always be my personal GOAT.

 

[MIMIC]

in last 7 slams novak played 5 finals, won only two...guess which one? AO 12,13. Could have lost both. Let's be honest here.

Djokovic is more consistent than Murray is. Much like with the Federer and Nadal match up.

If Djokovic loses to someone OTHER that Murray, Nadal or Federer, THEN we have a problem.

 

[kharma45]

Lol. You've stopped making sense.

So right he's the best British player, what was the point of stating that obvious fact? Him winning Wimbledon once is not deserving of such an accolade.

 

[NinjaFridge]

Lol. You've stopped making sense.

You never made any to begin with. He won Wimbledon, that is not worthy of a knighthood.

 

[Stinkles]

The salt in this thread is ridiculous.

Andy Murray won Wimbledon. And he deserved to, he was the better player.

Get over it.

No, for some reason, this isn't true. All the players in this tournament were the worst tennis players in history and Murray bribed the judge,

 

[OriginalThinking]

Reflection:


- I really want Federer to at least win 1 more grand slam before retiring. He is the GOAT to me personally, consistently better than all players mentioned below.

- Nadal's Physical Game it seems cannot match his aging body. This is confirmed now.

- Djoker's perfect game has diminished in the end of 2012, all he had this year was his presence, and with this win that is gone as well, People won't fear him anymore.

- Quite happy Murray got the win at wimbledon, he will never be as good as Peak Federer or Nadal or Djoker, he is already 26, an age where the dominance starts to wane, he peaked late but at least he peaked.


Have I got it right?

I think you are wrong with the peak thing. Players don't all peak, or fall of peak at the same age. Some players hit their peak in their early 20's and it's downhill from there. Some don't hit til late 20's. And so on. It's too early to tell if Murray has peaked or not.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Reflection:
- I really want Federer to at least win 1 more grand slam before retiring. He is the GOAT to me personally, consistently better than all players mentioned below.

The longer he keeps playing the harder it is going to be to go out on top. I'd hate to see Federer be reduced to MJ Wizards level by the time he actual retires. Should have pulled a Sampras and quit after winning that 2012 Wimbledon and that #1 ranking lol

 

[ghstwrld]

Thank GAWD this flop tournament is over; burn the grass on cc!

 

[Ashes]

So right he's the best British player, what was the point of stating that obvious fact? Him winning Wimbledon once is not deserving of such an accolade.

I don't think you understand the value of winning Wimbledon in British Sport. 17 million people out of 62m, watched Murray lose last year's final. We don't have viewing figures, but if it were not same or higher I wouldn't be surprised.

Sir Bradley Wiggins won tour de france, and was knighted for services to sport. If Murray winning Wimbledon is not services to British Sport, I don't know what is. He'll get knighted for sure someday. Maybe this year, maybe ten twenty years, but he is getting knighted.

 

[Stinkles]

So right he's the best British player, what was the point of stating that obvious fact? Him winning Wimbledon once is not deserving of such an accolade.

Do you have internets? Modern knights receive the honor for FAR less. It's practically guaranteed.

 

[krYlon]

Maybe you and I watched different games but Murray won the tactics battle. Djokovic was playing the long game, moving Murray about, thinking about winning in five sets. Same reason he served and volleyed.

Too bad you actually have to win a set to get to five.

??

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here and how it relates to what I said?

Are you trying to say Novak was defensive because he moved Murray about and served and volleyed? None of your post makes sense, how can you play the long game by serving and volleying lol.

Anyway, I'm just glad Murray won, he deserved it, no matter who appeared to play defensive or aggressive.

 

[Certinty]

Reflection:

- I really want Federer to at least win 1 more grand slam before retiring. He is the GOAT to me personally, consistently better than all players mentioned below.

- Nadal's Physical Game it seems cannot match his aging body. This is confirmed now.


Have I got it right?

Not so sure anymore. I honestly think his only chance of winning another Grand Slam is at Wimbledon, and he lost to Stakhovsky just last week here. I would accept it being a one off, which it is if we're just looking at slams, but his level this year has been poor throughout for his standards.

As for Nadal, I think his schedule will change enormously the next few years, it's the only way I can see him coping with his game, really something that should have been done a few years ago but I'm pretty sure it'll happen now.