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[hardcastlemccormick]

EDIT: Post after me actually uses facts. Badass info.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

Taking Pikmin as an example of the creation process at Nintendo.

The development process is probably best described in the initial programming experiment team prototyping some type of game where you control several characters (Yuji Kando and Colin Reed). Some of it has been traced the to Mario 128 demo supposedly (Keizo Ota). Somewhere along the evolution of the prototype Shigeru Miyamoto "confined or suggested the idea of the game focusing on garden like environments". From there the actual main characters and art style (Shigefumi Hino) were decided. And the main level design (Masamichi Abe) and others were decided.

Stating that Shigeru Miyamoto was involved in the creation of Pikmin is factual. But then the fact that Shigeru Miyamoto might have taken the hobby of gardening and inspiring/mandating the team to focus on a garden setting as opposed to the alternative (exotic alien worlds? futuristic robots? mario rts?) becomes spotlighted as "Miyamoto created Pikmin". It is not too different than when Gunpei Yokoi told Yoshio Sakamoto "to make a mystery adventure game based on popular Japanese detective stories". Which is how Yoshio Sakamoto and R&D1 created the Detective Club series.

 

[AdventureRacing]

FFS people, it's really part of the link I gave he talks about some of his hobbies were made into games and all.
Seriously I'm pretty sure there's an interview somewhere with this, it shouldn't be too hard to find (I can't search now so you'll have to search or wait for that).
About wiifit, I'm pretty sure in the IA he talked about how he got the concept from weighing himself so you've got here an example of putting Miyamoto as the gamegod of Nintendo handing ideas from his immortal hands to mere mortals if you want one.

Except nothing in the OP suggests that this isn't true. Just because the game got some ideas from other sources doesn't mean that the main idea behind the game didn't come from Miyamoto.

This has been explained dozens of times in this thread and you continue to ignore it because it makes everything you're saying irrelevant or flat out wrong.

Well consider the fact that their most interesting project gamewise lately are sports game with the most minimal content possible and a pet simulator :/
Consider the fact that on their last 3/4 Zelda games have either been OoT retread or content that clashes totally with Zelda's universe (train for example).
Mario has either no new content at all (nsmbs) or content put in a blender to make players go through obstacle courses in the most abstract possible way (Galaxies)
I won't even go into Metroid who either got shat on or was not made by Ncl.
This totally explains why there's literally no new content made at Ncl since they can always go their treasure of prototype, mesh it into one of their existing franchises and call it a day.

So basically you have taken this one rumour which has absolutely no evidence and have somehow managed to run with that to somehow imply that everything nintendo makes is boring and uninspired.

My whole point was that their marketing in based on approximations and lies.

What the hell are you talking about? Miyamoto made one throwaway comment in a Q & A session and somehow this means that ninetndo's entire advertising campaigns are based on lies and approximations.

Even if you're right and Miyamoto did lie your comment would still be complete bullshit.

It's a publicly traded company, they must be wary of what they say because they've got legal obligations to them.

As if investors would give a shit. If nintendo said they were going to sell 30 million 3DS's this year and they only sold 10 million investors would go ape shit. They don't care about where a certain develop got their inspiration for one specific game. Especially when you consider that it's such a small game in terms of nintendos overall output.

 

[Mael]

Then when you credit someone for the design of the game who do you credit then if you intend on chosing only 1 person?
The one who came up with gameplay idea or the content that goes with it.
considering that only 1 person came up with the gameplay or content (and we all know that's not exactly how it goes).
So I'm sift the last 4 years of Q&A to investors and see where this goes.
It's still a gross exageration to credit only 1 person for a game or any project of that scale, but that's marketing for you.

AdventureRacing, I'm not even going to bother with you.
When you come up with stuff like 'who cares if lies are fed to investors' it's pretty clear it's not worth the time.

 

[Kato]

You took the time to catch my edit and still came up with that?
seriously I'm not arguing that SM made the game alone in his garden or something.
I'm arguing that they're giving credit to SM about the game idea when really they should have credited the prototype to begin with.
Kinda like with SSB where they credit Sakurai for the idea, concept and all (and I'm not arguing that this story is false or anything, I'm saying they're giving the same weight on pikmin's creatiion to SM as SSB's Sakurai)

They? Who is they? Nintendo at the investors Q&A? Nintendo giving credit to a prototype? While the garden idea is what made Pikmin in what it is? You know that investors want to see one thing only... Money in return and done legally. Not giving credit to a prototype Nintendo themselves acquired, (<- thank god for spell check in Chrome for that damn word), put on hold, then worked on it a bit, but instead explaining the idea came from one of Myamoto's hobbies and creative injection which led to Pikmin is nothing an investor would loose sleep over..

Or "They" as in the journo's who run with the story. In that case close your internet

 

[AdventureRacing]

It's still a gross exageration to credit only 1 person for a game or any project of that scale, but that's marketing for you.

Who the hell cares? So when avatar 2 is released and they say in the tag line "from the mind of James Cameron" are you going to go off the wall because he didn't make the entire idea/film by himself?

 

[JimboJones]

Who the hell cares? So when avatar 2 is released and they say in the tag line "from the mind of James Cameron" are you going to go off the wall because he didn't make the entire idea/film by himself?

lol you get to the end of Pikmin it just says:

GAME MAKERER

SHIGSY

THE END


?

 

[AdventureRacing]

lol you get to the end of Pikmin it just says:

GAME MAKERER

SHIGSY

THE END


?

Exactly lol.

 

[Mael]

They? Who is they? Nintendo at the investors Q&A? Nintendo giving credit to a prototype? While the garden idea is what made Pikmin in what it is? You know that investors want to see one thing only... Money in return and done legally. Not giving credit to a prototype Nintendo themselves acquired, (<- thank god for spell check in Chrome for that damn word), put on hold, then worked on it a bit, but instead explaining the idea came from one of Myamoto's hobbies and creative injection which led to Pikmin is nothing an investor would loose sleep over..

Still if Nintendo at the Q&A misappropriated (no spellcheck on FF :/) the credit to Miyamoto when they were directly asked to investors that's quite clearly a lie to investors when asked.
that's what I was saying all along.
And even then I'm not sure they did, I'm thinking they did and I'll be checking later when I've sifted through what they've put online.

I really don't give a shit about what the media says though

Who the hell cares? So when avatar 2 is released and they say in the tag line "from the mind of James Cameron" are you going to go off the wall because he didn't make the entire idea/film by himself?

AdventureRacing, I'm not even going to bother with you.
When you come up with stuff like 'who cares if lies are fed to investors' it's pretty clear it's not worth the time.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

So basically Mael, what you're saying is is that when a poster says a single stupid thing, we're free to disregard everything else they say?

Sign me up!

It doesn't ignore that he/she has legit points that you can't seem to argue against.

 

[Mael]

So basically Mael, what you're saying is is that when a poster says a single stupid thing, we're free to disregard everything else they say?

Sign me up!

It doesn't ignore that he/she has legit points that you can't seem to argue against.

Huh really I can't be arsed to reply to someone who can't even grasp that a publicly traded company mustn't lie to its investor(or the market at large) and doesn't seem to even want to grasp that idea.
It's a waste of time for everyone, on top of that his example is really really bad.
I mean comparing an investor Q&A to the tagline of a poster on the street?

 

[AdventureRacing]

AdventureRacing, I'm not even going to bother with you.
When you come up with stuff like 'who cares if lies are fed to investors' it's pretty clear it's not worth the time.

They don't give a shit where the inspiration for pikmin came from. All they care about is the amount of money being made. If you really think that investors are going to care that one developer is getting slightly too much credit for a game than it's you who isn't worth the response.

Also good job ignoring all the other points i made, you've made it pretty clear in this thread that you're just happy to ignore all the points other people are making.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Huh really I can't be arsed to reply to someone who can't even grasp that a publicly traded company mustn't lie to its investor(or the market at large) and doesn't seem to even want to grasp that idea.
It's a waste of time for everyone, on top of that his example is really really bad.

No, it's not, actually.

And I can't be arsed to spend time on a poster who can't seem to understand that when a company highlights a single employee's input on a game development, that doesn't mean they're giving him sole credit to the game's construction.

Adios.

 

[Sennorin]

Huh really I can't be arsed to reply to someone who can't even grasp that a publicly traded company mustn't lie to its investor(or the market at large) and doesn't seem to even want to grasp that idea.
It's a waste of time for everyone, on top of that his example is really really bad.
I mean comparing an investor Q&A to the tagline of a poster on the street?

And nothing like that did happen.

Others have explained to you in detail why you´re wrong. Admit defeat in this debate and don´t take this any further that childishly.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Huh really I can't be arsed to reply to someone who can't even grasp that a publicly traded company mustn't lie to its investor(or the market at large) and doesn't seem to even want to grasp that idea.

You're pretending you have a greater understanding of the market than you really do (i know i'm not an expert so i won't pretend to be). What i do know is that investors care about profit and growth. They don't give a shit that a game designers influence is perhaps being slightly overstated.

You have actually said within this thread that this was used as a marketing tool. If building up Miyamoto in this way has actually helped sales why the hell would investors care?

I mean comparing an investor Q&A to the tagline of a poster on the street?

That wasn't the comparison i was making that was a separate point altogether which had nothing to do with investors. That was purely in response to your anger about nintendo supposedly lying about who gets credit for game ideas.

 

[Mael]

Are you all dense?
The investor asked in the Q&A specificly about Pikmin and how it was made by SM's hobbies. If he cares enough to ask the question about it that meanst that the CEO should give him the truth about it, that's how it works.
But ok I thought wrongly that on this forum at least it wasn't just freaking kids with no grasp of how a company actually works, I guess I won't bother pointing contradictions next time.
Seriously
"So when avatar 2 is released and they say in the tag line "from the mind of James Cameron" are you going to go off the wall because he didn't make the entire idea/film by himself?"
He's not referring an investor Q&A or any formal event where a CEO has to talk to people who gave him money what they did with it. I really can't help it if you really think it's the same, we'll part ways since you've apparently decided that making me waste my time is actually better than having a discussion, thanks for the trolling.

And nothing like that did happen.

Others have explained to you in detail why you´re wrong. Admit defeat in this debate and don´t take this any further that childishly.

Nothing like that at all:

As if investors would give a shit. If nintendo said they were going to sell 30 million 3DS's this year and they only sold 10 million investors would go ape shit. They don't care about where a certain develop got their inspiration for one specific game. Especially when you consider that it's such a small game in terms of nintendos overall output.

You're pretending you have a greater understanding of the market than you really do (i know i'm not an expert so i won't pretend to be). What i do know is that investors care about profit and growth. They don't give a shit that a game designers influence is perhaps being slightly overstated.

Because they fucking asked for it? I'm not kidding check the link provided to see what I'm talking about.
If you actually care about the whole thing instead of just messing around it's here
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/101029qa/index.html
That's the Q&A and as I said I'm willing to check earlier ones to see if anythng like happened before.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Are you all dense?

Projection

 

[YoungFa]

Projection

Real classy.

 

[Rhod]

Are you all dense?
The investor asked in the Q&A specificly about Pikmin and how it was made by SM's hobbies. If he cares enough to ask the question about it that meanst that the CEO should give him the truth about it, that's how it works.

But, what makes you think that he didn't give him the truth?

 

[Mael]

That wasn't the comparison i was making that was a separate point altogether which had nothing to do with investors. That was purely in response to your anger about nintendo supposedly lying about who gets credit for game ideas.

I have no problem with them lying anyway about what they want, I (and others believe me on that) have a problem if it's proven they've lied to their investors (because they can be sued for that)

But, what makes you think that he didn't give him the truth?

Which is what I'm trying to check in the first place.
As it is now I don't know I haven't fully checked.

I do try my very best, good sir. Would you like some more wine, or is that cigar in the way?

you might want to drop the cigar it might be a bit hot in your cave

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Real classy.

I do try my very best, good sir. Would you like some more wine, or is that cigar in the way?

 

[flintstryker]

so...guys...we are assuming that that article is legit now or is gaf just being dumb as usual?

 

[Rhod]

Mael, I can't believe I followed your link to that question, but I want to try and help you calm down.

Miyamoto says:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to be the themes in our games."

He doesn't say:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to inspire the entire game design in our games."

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Mael, I can't believe I followed your link to that question, but I want to try and help you calm down.

Miyamoto says:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to be the themes in our games."

He doesn't say:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to inspire the entire game design in our games."

Nononono see he's hunting through Nintendo's past articles and interviews, he'll find that Nintendo said Miyamoto pooped out perfectly pressed Super Mario Galaxy discs one night

 

[Mael]

Mael, I can't believe I followed your link to that question, but I want to try and help you calm down.

Miyamoto says:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to be the themes in our games."

He doesn't say:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to inspire the entire game design in our games."

Ah misread that part then, still it's not uninteresting stuffs to read so I'll check anyway.

Nononono see he's hunting through Nintendo's past articles and interviews, he'll find that Nintendo said Miyamoto pooped out perfectly pressed Super Mario Galaxy discs one night

And now you've grown hairs, I'm still waiting for the club to go with it, by the way do you prefer caves or the usual under the bridge? I never know this days which one your likes prefer

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

And now you've grown hairs, I'm still waiting for the club to go with it.

I'm tired of treating you seriously after a page of reasoning and reasonable dialogue, especially after you insulted me. Thus, you get my disapproval and the sense of humor that goes with it.

Now if you will be so kind to continue to post your ridiculous dissertations, I will continue making fun of you.

EDIT: Ahaha, you continued your silly insults. Once again we see projection in the most simplistic of forms.

Pointing out that your platform is based on wild assumptions and baseless facts is not trolling. You seem interested in shutting down our arguments not through logic but character attacks.

 

[Fantastical]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill even if it is true.

 

[Kato]

Mael, I can't believe I followed your link to that question, but I want to try and help you calm down.

Miyamoto says:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to be the themes in our games."

He doesn't say:

"It is true that some of my hobbies have turned out to inspire the entire game design in our games."

To compliment that one. Investors were made aware of the interview the following answer comes from.

On a slightly different topic, one of the great things about video games is that while you're making one, you can test it, break it down, and adjust it. So in my case, the greater portion of what's important about my creativity might happen only after I have start working on it. (laughs)

 

[Mael]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill even if it is true.

Al Capone was caught for a posting error or something you know :/

 

[Fantastical]

Al Capone was caught for a posting error or something you know :/

What?

 

[AdventureRacing]

Are you all dense?
The investor asked in the Q&A specificly about Pikmin and how it was made by SM's hobbies. If he cares enough to ask the question about it that meanst that the CEO should give him the truth about it, that's how it works.

First of all Miyamoto did give him the truth about how it works. Have you even read the Q&A that you keep linking? He makes it pretty damn clear how his personal inspirations have impacted on game projects.

Even if the information in the OP is true what Miyamoto is saying isn't a lie. You could perhaps argue that his influence on the project is being overstated (which i completely disagree with) but he isn't lying about anything.

But ok I thought wrongly that on this forum at least it wasn't just freaking kids with no grasp of how a company actually works, I guess I won't bother pointing contradictions next time.
Seriously
"So when avatar 2 is released and they say in the tag line "from the mind of James Cameron" are you going to go off the wall because he didn't make the entire idea/film by himself?"
He's not referring an investor Q&A or any formal event where a CEO has to talk to people who gave him money what they did with it. I really can't help it if you really think it's the same, we'll part ways since you've apparently decided that making me waste my time is actually better than having a discussion, thanks for the trolling.

I already explained what that comment was about and it had nothing to do with investors. You're just concentrating on and twisting this one point to ignore everything else i said.

Because they fucking asked for it? I'm not kidding check the link provided to see what I'm talking about.
If you actually care about the whole thing instead of just messing around it's here
.

They asked how his personal inspirations have influenced certain games and what potential this could have on future games. He answered this truthfully.

How is it relevant that some part of the game design was inspired by a previous game? Miyamoto never said that he came up with everything whilst he was sitting in his garden.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Al Capone was caught for a posting error or something you know :/

Taking your (what you may consider subtle) character attacks to private messages? Mael, I'm very disappointed in you.

If you hadn't resorted to calling everyone names perhaps this debate might have been resolved. It's a shame you seem to see even the most gentle debate as trolling.

EDIT: Shocking Alberto, why do you always have to be right?

EDIT2: Never mind, he came back

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't actually see the need to argue with someone who draws a line in the sand with the argument that Nintendo lied to investors about the 3DS being a DS successor.

 

[Red UFO]

Hey, I wonder what's going on in this thr...

 

[serotonina]

So Basically,

Mael : This Thread = Erigu : Lost |OT|

 

[Mael]

Taking your (what you may consider subtle) character attacks to private messages? Mael, I'm very disappointed in you.

If you hadn't resorted to calling everyone names perhaps this debate might have been resolved. It's a shame you seem to see even the most gentle debate as trolling.

EDIT: Shocking Alberto, why do you always have to be right?

You're having way too much fun for a debate on the web...I nearly picture you standing while high fiving the air

We can post the exchange here if you want I think I said as much, I'd prefer not to since it's really OT though.

I don't actually see the need to argue with someone who draws a line in the sand with the argument that Nintendo lied to investors about the 3DS being a DS successor.

I wasn't actually serious about that part...but still good catch.

What?

I was thinking of something else entirely disregard my comment.

First of all Miyamoto did give him the truth about how it works. Have you even read the Q&A that you keep linking? He makes it pretty damn clear how his personal inspirations have impacted on game projects.

I'm going from memory that's why I said I would be checking later on. they've said some stuffs in interviews that were quite worrying(and i can't access the link right now)

Even if the information in the OP is true what Miyamoto is saying isn't a lie. You could perhaps argue that his influence on the project is being overstated (which i completely disagree with) but he isn't lying about anything.

Actually my point is I'll be checking if he lied about it or not, I'm perfectly aware that his influence is overstated (as Aonuma's btw)

I already explained what that comment was about and it had nothing to do with investors. You're just concentrating on and twisting this one point to ignore everything else i said.

Or maybe I misread it and took it the wrong way, if that's not what you meant you'll excuse me for misinterpreting what you said.

They asked how his personal inspirations have influenced certain games and what potential this could have on future games. He answered this truthfully.

How is it relevant that some part of the game design was inspired by a previous game? Miyamoto never said that he came up with everything whilst he was sitting in his garden.

That's not what I'm arguing either or my problem with it too.
I've said it before I'll say it again, the problem is that they take credit from stuffs they didn't do or misappropriate the credit (and if it's part of the meetings it's a lie to investor....but so far I don't know I'll check later).

EDIT2: Judging from the PM meltdown I just received, this is probably over.

You've got a weird definition of meltdown.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

You're having way too much fun for a debate on the web...I nearly picture you standing while high fiving the air

We can post the exchange here if you want I think I said as much, I'd prefer not to since it's really OT though.

If people want to read more of you accusing me of trolling then I think we've had enough of that fill.

I have enjoyed this debate, I won't lie. Time to stop though.

 

[Mael]

If people want to read more of you accusing me of trolling then I think we've had enough of that fill.

I have enjoyed this debate, I won't lie. Time to stop though.

Which debate? the one where I give a link with a crucial point to my argumentation that no one cares to follow even though I stated I couldn't check it?

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I've said it before I'll say it again, the problem is that they take credit from stuffs they didn't do or misappropriate the credit (and if it's part of the meetings it's a lie to investor....but so far I don't know I'll check later).

who is they in this case? Also what exactly are they taking credit for in this case?

Actually my point is I'll be checking if he lied about it or not, I'm perfectly aware that his influence is overstated (as Aonuma's btw)

Two completely different examples though. Eiji Aonuma is a physical game producer and small team manager who dedicates his 24/7 to roughly 2 games at a time. Miyamoto is an R&D manager and Board of Director who dedicates his 24/7 to fiscal board discussions, public relations interviews, and small managerial and supervisory on tons of random things.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

What debate?

That's true, you haven't actually argued against any of the posts I made on the last page, so this was likely not a debate and just me yelling at a wall.

 

[Kato]

That's true, you haven't actually argued against any of the posts I made on the last page, so this was likely not a debate and just me yelling at a wall.

I heard ya.. If it's any consolation

 

[Mael]

who is they in this case? Also what exactly are they taking credit for in this case?

Well the article actually states that the Galaxy proto doesn't originate from them or something.

Two completely different examples though. Eiji Aonuma is a physical game producer and small team manager who dedicates his 24/7 to roughly 2 games at a time. Miyamoto is an R&D manager and division manager who dedicates his 24/7 to fiscal board discussions, public relations interviews, and small managerial and supervisory on tons of random things.

Well yeah but he's usually seen as the one directing the Zelda games (as such that Spirit Train is his baby when even in interview we can see that's not really the case).
Still they're all collaborative efforts so we should be talking of the teams behind it really.

edit : gotta love people that only read what they want to read, really.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Your hamfisted style of arguing makes it difficult to tell when you're serious and when you're not.

This could benefit you. You could write the last few pages off as a joke and not a pained example of losing yourself to an argument.

 

[BurntPork]

My response to Mael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC2K1HP7t1U

 

[Fredrik]

lol at the person that tries to nullify Nintendos skill of making great games by posting Mario Galaxy as an example

 

[Mael]

Your hamfisted style of arguing makes it difficult to tell when you're serious and when you're not.

This could benefit you. You could write the last few pages off as a joke and not a pained example of losing yourself to an argument.

ShockingAlberto
is too reasonable
for this forum


Seriously though some stuffs get lost while typing I guess I'm not skilled enough to pass off the tone in my text....
That and my love of inside jokes....

My response to Mael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC2K1HP7t1U

Real smooth, someone can tell me what it is since I can't access youtube?

It's the credits roll for Pikmin.

hey thanks, you can be helpful when you want to.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Real smooth, someone can tell me what it is since I can't access youtube?

It's the credits roll for Pikmin.

 

[pvpness]

This thread was ridiculous from the start and it's only gone further down the rabbit hole. Been fun to read.

 

[PumpkinPie]

Ah, I see. I misunderstood the article. That's even less interesting.

Miyamoto probably doesn't even like swimming!

I would be far more disappointed to find out that Miyamoto isn't as crazy as we think he is than if I found out that Nintendo stole their game ideas.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Y'all really need to finish Pikmin so we can get back on track.

Edit:

My response to Mael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC2K1HP7t1U

Drat, beaten