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2012 NBA Mar |OT| Knicks fans now drinking JD in straight shots

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Prior to Duncan, David Robinson had the worst supporting cast any star has ever had.

They were a 21 win team before he was drafted, and a 20 win team the year he was injured. He added 35 wins when he was drafted, and the team lost 39 more games the year he was injured.

That should tell you all you need to know about how much D-Rob carried the Spurs.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Your small-market team has 4 chips since '99. You aren't the one that should make the argument that the NBA favors large market teams.
 

Canuck76

Banned
Get rid of your avatar, thanks.

It's not like I'd root against the Blazers but in the 2010 finals i was looking for them to win another one, and i rooted for them to take Lebron out of the playoffs in'10 and then upset the heat the next year.
 
What kind of crack are you smoking? You've never been on a team with a clear cut alpha player who had a crazy will to win and never got phased in crunch time? You honestly, genuinely, don't know the value of something like this? You're right, all coaches, all basketball analysts that had something to do with highly competitive basketball all talk about those things and yet you de-value them because they are subjective?


It's not subjective to say that Lebron James, has, up to this point, played HORRIBLY below his standards in every single finals game he's ever played. How is it that people can say things like the "the game is mostly mental" and yet you completely ignore the mental aspect of the game (will to win, competitive drive, basketball iq, inner confidence, not having a fear of failure) and act like "if it can't be measured by today's tools and measurements it's irrelevant"
Because that's how I analyze this stuff. Everyone has a will to win and all that BS.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
What are you talking about? Who are you talking too?


Crimson apparently thinks teams around the league all knew Kobe would develp into what he did, but chose to pass on him because he didn't want to to play for anyone else but the Lakers.

Except that's not quite how it went down.


Jerry West himself has said he didn't know Kobe would be as good as he turned out to be. Not eve nclose. He was impressed with Kobe who was young, but very polished for his age. He knew he'd make a good pro and wanted a guard to pair with Shaq, who he had his eyes on.

But yeah, Kobe, a 17 year old kid who didn't even crack the top 10 in the draft somehow forced 12 other teams not to pick him, because he had so much leverage. Again, as a 17 year old kid.

League is rigged.
 
Prior to Wade, Lebron James had the worst supporting cast any star has ever had.

They were a 17 win team before he was drafted, and a 19 win team the year he left. He added 18 wins when he was drafted, and the team lost 42 more games the year he left.

That should tell you all you need to know about how much Bron carried the Cavs.

It works so perfectly. So fucking perfect.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Crimson apparently thinks teams around the league all knew Kobe would develp into what he did, but chose to pass on him because he didn't want to to play for anyone else but the Lakers.

Except that's not quite how it went down.


Jerry West himself has said he didn't know Kobe would be as good as he turned out to be. Not eve nclose. He was impressed with Kobe who was young, but very polished for his age. He knew he'd make a good pro and wanted a guard to pair with Shaq, who he had his eyes on.

But yeah, Kobe, a 17 year old kid who didn't even crack the top 10 in the draft somehow forced 12 other teams not to pick him, because he had so much leverage. Again, as a 17 year old kid.

League is rigged.
That is partially true.

Guys were saying they weren't going to play for certain teams back then. They didn't even need leverage either. But the Kobe trade was pretty much laid out way ahead of time because no one wanted to trade for a high risk kid who only wanted to play for select teams.
 
It's hardly equal though.
It also doesn't equal success, in my opinion.

There is so much shit that goes into winning a championship. So many situations where the "alpha dog" does not end up deciding the game (See: all of the damned role player game winners throughout the years). You have to have a great FO. Your teammates can't fuck up. The other team might have injuries, etc, etc etc.

To whoever brought up the shit ton of players being amazing playoff performers....I don't know. When you look at the old boxscores things sometimes don't match up with the historical narratives that people tend to paint years after these series occur.

This isn't a defense of LeBron here, just my general feelings of why I don't believe in using championships to judge players' careers. And will to win =! points, rebounds, teammates doing well....That's all stuff that can be lumped into "narrative" for me.

So I guess for me, Team success =! individual success.

And for whoever brought up the "all of these analysts think this, all of these players think this" in regards to the will to win stuff: basketball analysts as well as athletes in general aren't the smartest people. I would rather go with actual data of what happened in a lot of situations than people's experiences. One is objective, the other is subjective and can be affected hugely by things like one point wins or losses. Narratives suck.

(btw, the numbers say that LeBron has sucked in the finals, so again, not defending him here)

And thanks to whoever posted the link showing Magic was going to go back to college.

Also, WTF AT THAT CAR CRASH GIF AT THE TOP?!?!? That's fucked up!
 
You can do it if you want. I'm tired.

I just don't like it when people use the Spurs as an example. We won in spite of the imbalance.

Bahwahwa. You won because your franchise tanked. You won because despite having the greatest defender in the league and arguably the greatest center at the time, your team couldn't pull it off. Your center was abused worse by Hakeem than the Cleveland fans were by LeBron James. Your center David Robinson was a pussy when facing the toughest competition. He couldn't take it. He slunk. He didn't show up when needed most. Even Rodman will tell you that. You won because your team gave up for an entire season. Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

It works so perfectly. So fucking perfect.

ethered.
 
Also did you guys have a problem with LeBron going to Miami? I personally didn't...I had more of a problem with the way he handled the whole thing (read: fucking horribly). What's the consensus here?
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
It also doesn't equal success, in my opinion.

There is so much shit that goes into winning a championship. So many situations where the "alpha dog" does not end up deciding the game (See: all of the damned role player game winners throughout the years). You have to have a great FO. Your teammates can't fuck up. The other team might have injuries, etc, etc etc.

To whoever brought up the shit ton of players being amazing playoff performers....I don't know. When you look at the old boxscores things sometimes don't match up with the historical narratives that people tend to paint years after these series occur.

This isn't a defense of LeBron here, just my general feelings of why I don't believe in using championships to judge players' careers. And will to win =! points, rebounds, teammates doing well....That's all stuff that can be lumped into "narrative" for me.

So I guess for me, Team success =! individual success.

And for whoever brought up the "all of these analysts think this, all of these players think this" in regards to the will to win stuff: basketball analysts as well as athletes in general aren't the smartest people. I would rather go with actual data of what happened in a lot of situations than people's experiences. One is objective, the other is subjective and can be affected hugely by things like one point wins or losses. Narratives suck.

(btw, the numbers say that LeBron has sucked in the finals, so again, not defending him here)

And thanks to whoever posted the link showing Magic was going to go back to college.

Also, WTF AT THAT CAR CRASH GIF AT THE TOP?!?!? That's fucked up!
A couple of things... role players hit big shots, true, but when the Suns are down 2 they aren't going to look to Shannon Brown for the final bucket. Stephen Jackson may suck for 3 quarters but he's JAXXXXXX for a reason. You can't ignore these things.

I don't think anyone can discount the human element from sports because tension is real. Tension causes people to react and perform differently across all professions.
 

Kellen

Member
Also did you guys have a problem with LeBron going to Miami? I personally didn't...I had more of a problem with the way he handled the whole thing (read: fucking horribly). What's the consensus here?

Well as a Bulls fan I was disappointed that none of the current big three chose Chicago. Honestly, though I had no problem with him leaving in free agency but "The Decision" was a bad idea.
 
0608_reggie_miller_1372452_flynet_e.jpg


...
 
Might as well watch baseball since basketball seems to be too nuanced for you.
Basketball is actually much more predictable than baseball. Year on year r^2 values for stats are much higher in basketball than baseball.

If you don't believe it I don't blame you, I didn't either at first. Basketball has so many things going on you'd think it would be hard to predict success, but the blog I frequent uses metrics to project college players' play to NBA success and they get things right at a pretty good rate.

Baseball seems to be much more easily predictable by statistics, considering its just the pitcher and batter, but for some reason its not true. I'm guessing its due to the volatility of the result of smacking a 90 mph ball with a stick, though that's only a guess.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
He may be on to something. LFK was telling Knicks-age that Amir Johnson was the better player for years.
 
Basketball is actually much more predictable than baseball. Year on year r^2 values for stats are much higher in basketball than baseball.

If you don't believe it I don't blame you, I didn't either at first. Basketball has so many things going on you'd think it would be hard to predict success, but the blog I frequent uses metrics to project college players' play to NBA success and they get things right at a pretty good rate.

Baseball seems to be much more easily predictable by statistics, considering its just the pitcher and batter, but for some reason its not true. I'm guessing its due to the volatility of the result of smacking a 90 mph ball with a stick, though that's only a guess.

Oh god, Wins Produced?
 
the greatest defender in the league and arguably the greatest center at the time

lol

even you can't hide from his greatness

greatest Center of all time

you already know

It works so perfectly. So fucking perfect.

I have no objection to this comparison. Lebron's stats were worse, his team accomplishments less (he was in the east), and his supporting cast was better but its not the worst comparison in the world. What Lebron did in Cleveland was pretty spectacular on all accounts.

Most of my criticism of him comes from the decision and onward, and his absolute refusal to add wrinkles into his game. Plus his personality, leadership, etc; things D-Rob had in spades.

Oh god, Wins Produced?

Oh god.
 
A couple of things... role players hit big shots, true, but when the Suns are down 2 they aren't going to look to Shannon Brown for the final bucket. Stephen Jackson may suck for 3 quarters but he's JAXXXXXX for a reason. You can't ignore these things.

I don't think anyone can discount the human element from sports because tension is real. Tension causes people to react and perform differently across all professions.
Tension, I don't disagree. But a lot of these guys that people give credit for being clutch are actually pretty pedestrian. I'm not gonna post the links again cause we've already discussed the stuff

Also, on the final bucket thing. John Paxon, Robert Horry, Fish, Steve Kerr, just off the top of my head. If these guys miss shots at the ends of games then who the hell knows what happens? Maybe Kobe has one less championship or some shit, so people would crap on him for not being able to pull out the W or some shit, maybe TD doesn't get a chip

So many coin flip moments that are forgotten over time...
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Calipari claims Kobe's agent was threatening that Kobe would play in Italy if the Nets took him: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-wetzel_game_changing_decision_032411


Can you blame him? He didn;t want to play for an extremely shitty team.

LeBron on the other hand, just came off a season with the best record in the league. He was seemingly on the cusp of of winning it all and proving he was what he and the media built him up to be...

...but he bolted to team up with the Wade/Bosh.


Heart of a champion.
 
^^Oh come the fuck on he was a free agent for christs sake. Remember when your boy Kobe was demanding a trade because he didn't have an allstar next to him? Remember the whole shaq thing? What a great guy.

Oh god, Wins Produced?
That was my reaction too, at first. But then I found out that all of this shit is calculated using regression analysis, which is very legit. This isn't some PER bullshit.

Though I do have to note that advanced statistics only do a good job of capturing offensive effectiveness, and can't really judge defense. Defense is too team/coaching based.
 
Tension, I don't disagree. But a lot of these guys that people give credit for being clutch are actually pretty pedestrian. I'm not gonna post the links again cause we've already discussed the stuff

Also, on the final bucket thing. John Paxon, Robert Horry, Fish, Steve Kerr, just off the top of my head. If these guys miss shots at the ends of games then who the hell knows what happens? Maybe Kobe has one less championship or some shit, so people would crap on him for not being able to pull out the W or some shit, maybe TD doesn't get a chip

So many coin flip moments that are forgotten over time...

How are those moments forgotten? Everyone recognizes those guys' greatness...(except Fisher, I fucking hate that guy)

But how are you disproving anything? Role players can be clutch too...if anything by citing Horry you are going against your argument. Horry is the prime example of a player who was clutch as hell.

Can you blame him?

Yes.
 

Duki

Banned
Can you blame him? He didn;t want to play for an extremely shitty team.

LeBron on the other hand, just came off a season with the best record in the league. He was seemingly on the cusp of of winning it all and proving he was what he and the media built him up to be...

...but he bolted to team up with the Wade/Bosh.


Heart of a champion.

kobe literally didnt want to go and lift a team by being the best player on it

he literally shied away from a team which in a few years was in the finals

kobe is a literal coward
 
How are those moments forgotten? Everyone recognizes those guys' greatness...(except Fisher, I fucking hate that guy)

But how are you disproving anything? Role players can be clutch too...if anything by citing Horry you are going against your argument. Horry is the prime example of a player who was clutch as hell.
I was talking about using equating team success to individual accomplishments. If those guys miss then the superstars who won chips by playing very well, might not have gotten chips. Like I said, too many variables.
 
Is there any scenario where a player could enter the NBA without being drafted and play for a team of their choice from the get go?

Like immediate free agency.
 
That was my reaction too, at first. But then I found out that all of this shit is calculated using regression analysis, which is very legit. This isn't some PER bullshit.

Though I do have to note that advanced statistics only do a good job of capturing offensive effectiveness, and can't really judge defense. Defense is too team/coaching based.

Wins Produced is a terrible metric. It's been refuted by pretty much the entire analytic community. Its R^2 isn't nearly as good as they'd like you to believe.


Of all the metrics, Wins Produced consistently comes in last in predicting wins every season. They're the same idiots that said Miami was winning 75 games last season, that the Warriors were a top 4 team out West, etc.

And they finally, after years, adjusted their metric that changed everything about the metric. Troy Murphy and David Lee went from superstars to above average players and they don't even talk about it.

Is there any scenario where a player could enter the NBA without being drafted and play for a team of their choice from the get go?

Like immediate free agency.

All undrafted players can.
 
Can you blame him? He didn;t want to play for an extremely shitty team.

LeBron on the other hand, just came off a season with the best record in the league. He was seemingly on the cusp of of winning it all and proving he was what he and the media built him up to be...

...but he bolted to team up with the Wade/Bosh.


Heart of a champion.

Except that rookies should never get special treatment and pay their dues like everyone else, and not be act like they are entitled to anything.

But that's the star you support, the guy who never wanted to try to make an extremely shitty team better.


Heart of a champion.
 

benjipwns

Banned
That was my reaction too, at first. But then I found out that all of this shit is calculated using regression analysis, which is very legit. This isn't some PER bullshit.
No, just no.

Also, correlating any linear weights model that isn't fundamentally insane on a team level with team wins will have a high r simply because of the fact that point differential follows team wins almost exactly. PER at a team level gets .85.
 
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