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[Vahagn]

It also doesn't equal success, in my opinion.

There is so much shit that goes into winning a championship. So many situations where the "alpha dog" does not end up deciding the game (See: all of the damned role player game winners throughout the years). You have to have a great FO. Your teammates can't fuck up. The other team might have injuries, etc, etc etc.

To whoever brought up the shit ton of players being amazing playoff performers....I don't know. When you look at the old boxscores things sometimes don't match up with the historical narratives that people tend to paint years after these series occur.

This isn't a defense of LeBron here, just my general feelings of why I don't believe in using championships to judge players' careers. And will to win =! points, rebounds, teammates doing well....That's all stuff that can be lumped into "narrative" for me.

So I guess for me, Team success =! individual success.

And for whoever brought up the "all of these analysts think this, all of these players think this" in regards to the will to win stuff: basketball analysts as well as athletes in general aren't the smartest people. I would rather go with actual data of what happened in a lot of situations than people's experiences. One is objective, the other is subjective and can be affected hugely by things like one point wins or losses. Narratives suck.

(btw, the numbers say that LeBron has sucked in the finals, so again, not defending him here)

And thanks to whoever posted the link showing Magic was going to go back to college.

Also, WTF AT THAT CAR CRASH GIF AT THE TOP?!?!? That's fucked up!

Bill Russell won 11 rings, Mikan won 5 Rings, Jordan 6, Kobe 5, Timmy 4, Magic 5, Bird 3, Hakeem 2, West won 2 but made the finals 9 times.

that's 43 chips between 9 guys.

I'm obviously not counting Cousy, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, D-Rob or Pippen as they won the majority of their rings with the above cast of characters.


You are on absolute crack if you don't think hyper competitive super skilled alpha dog players don't win rings. Every one of those championship teams had great teams, every one had role players that had huge games or played big...but it doesn't change the fact that you win in the NBA with a hyper competitive all time great caliber player running your team.


The NFL isn't very different. You win in the NFL with super skilled amazing QB's. Brady 4, Big Ben 3, Brees 1, Eli 2, Peyton 1 etc.

 

[The M.O.B]

Players of the month awards.

Lebron in the East
Durant in the West

Again, there is no debate who the only candidates for MVP are right now.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

All undrafted players can.

So what stops a great player from foregoing the draft entirely to become "undrafted" and then go play for their team of choice?

Are there distinct CBA restrictions?

Never understood this aspect of all major sports drafting.

 

[Black Mamba]

No, just no.

Also, regressing any linear weights model that isn't fundamentally insane on a team level against team wins will have a high r simply because of the fact that point differential follows team wins almost exactly. PER at a team level gets .85.

this.

They also put in a defensive weight to the players and attribute it them equally. This means that Hedo is worth the same on defense as Dwight Howard. Fisher is worth the same as Bynum. it's insane.

According to Wins Produced, Marcus Camby was once the best player in the league. Literally.

So what stops a great player from foregoing the draft entirely to become "undrafted" and then go play for their team of choice?

Are there distinct CBA restrictions?

Never understood this aspect of all major sports drafting.

I think you have to declare for the NBA draft to join the NBA in any capacity. Or at least until you hit a certain age? Don't know the specific rules, but pretty sure you have to allow yourself to be drafted first.

 

[benjipwns]

So what stops a great player from foregoing the draft entirely to become "undrafted" and then go play for their team of choice?

Are there distinct CBA restrictions?

Never understood this aspect of all major sports drafting.

You can't forego the draft, there's automatic eligibility.

 

[DominoKid]

listening to magic talk never gets less funny.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Players of the month awards.

Lebron in the East
Durant in the West

Again, there is no debate who the only candidates for MVP are right now.

Um Kevin Love is an MVP over LeBron. Take Love off the Wolves and they're even more lolz. Take Bron off the Heat and they're still a top 3 team.

 

[Black Mamba]

Almost forgot, I think Rodman is the #1 player in NBA history. And 5 Rodmans will defeat 5 Shaqs/jordans/Duncans. Pretty sure I've seen that argument laid out.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Almost forgot, I think Rodman is the #1 player in NBA history. And 5 Rodmans will defeat 5 Shaqs/jordans/Duncans. Pretty sure I've seen that argument laid out.

No one would argue against that.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

No, just no.

Also, correlating any linear weights model that isn't fundamentally insane on a team level with team wins will have a high r simply because of the fact that point differential follows team wins almost exactly. PER at a team level gets .85.

I haven't read through WoW yet, though I plan to, because tbh I am not 100% certain of the methods employed. I am much more partial to the more simple, non combined stats like TS%, Reb% etc.

Do you have a problem with the methods employed, or more the idea of shoving everything into one (or something else)?

 

[Canuck76]

Except that rookies should never get special treatment and pay their dues like everyone else, and not be act like they are entitled to anything.

But that's the star you support, the guy who never wanted to try to make an extremely shitty team better.


Heart of a champion.

Lol versus the guy who brought all his trashy friends into Cavs organization and did whatever the hell he wanted and held it above the owners head? Versus the guy who never delivered and gave up on his team and his home throughout the playoffs? Versus the guy who talked publicly about going to new york or anywhere else but the place he grew up?

Kobe was a scumbag but he's a scumbag who's delivered. Lebron's going to learn soon enough you can't buy a legacy and will forever be a failed prince.

 

[Syphon Filter]

wilcox od

 

[Puddles]

Um Kevin Love is an MVP over LeBron. Take Love off the Wolves and they're even more lolz. Take Bron off the Heat and they're still a top 3 team.

Dwight is also better.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Um Kevin Love is an MVP over LeBron. Take Love off the Wolves and they're even more lolz. Take Bron off the Heat and they're still a top 3 team.

No. In my opinion you give the MVP to the best player. AKA Lebron.

Love maybe has a chance to win it a few years down the road when he's more developed, but here: Switch LeBron and Love. Which team gets better?

 

[The M.O.B]

Um Kevin Love is an MVP over LeBron. Take Love off the Wolves and they're even more lolz. Take Bron off the Heat and they're still a top 3 team.

Ideally yes, that how MVP should work but Stern doesn't think like that. Otherwise guys like Dwight should win it nearly every year.

Spoiler

And Wade should have won the year he was shooting 49% averaging 30ppg on a completely scrub Miami squad.

 

[Vahagn]

Except that rookies should never get special treatment and pay their dues like everyone else, and not be act like they are entitled to anything.

But that's the star you support, the guy who never wanted to try to make an extremely shitty team better.


Heart of a champion.

The dude wanted to play for A) The team he grew up idolizing and B) The team with a legendary GM that told him outright how amazing he thought he was and how hard he was going to try to get him as a 17 year old untested player


Not to mention, he went to a team with Eddie Jones and Nick the Quick on it, knowing he'd get like no playing time. It wasn't his best move to demand to play for LA, but it's not like he was in the league 7 years, had multiple 60 win teams he quit on in the playoffs, and then left to join the two other best FA agents who are good enough to carry crappy teams on their back to playoff spots on another champion's team because he was tired of carrying his hometown team.

 

[ph33nix]

Lol versus the guy who brought all his trashy friends into Cavs organization and did whatever the hell he wanted and held it above the owners head? Versus the guy who never delivered and gave up on his team and his home throughout the playoffs? Versus the guy who talked publicly about going to new york or anywhere else but the place he grew up?

Kobe was a scumbag but he's a scumbag who's delivered. Lebron's going to learn soon enough you can't buy a legacy and will forever be a failed prince.

Don't mistake what I wrote for Kobe hate. I respect the guy. He's the third best shooting guard of all time behind Jordan and Wade. But saying that he has more heart because he didn't want to get drafted by the Nets as opposed to leaving in free agency is wrong.

The dude wanted to play for A) The team he grew up idolizing and B) The team with a legendary GM that told him outright how amazing he thought he was and how hard he was going to try to get him as a 17 year old untested player


Not to mention, he went to a team with Eddie Jones and Nick the Quick on it, knowing he'd get like no playing time. It wasn't his best move to demand to play for LA, but it's not like he was in the league 7 years, had multiple 60 win teams he quit on in the playoffs, and then left to join the two other best FA agents who are good enough to carry crappy teams on their back to playoff spots on another champion's team because he was tired of carrying his hometown team.

Dude I don't care who you are or what you want. It's scum to force your way to get drafted by a specific team...this ain't nba 2k12

 

[Kellen]

Deng with 15 points at the end of the first quarter. He's actually shooting well.

 

[Black Mamba]

I haven't read through WoW yet, though I plan to, because tbh I am not 100% certain of the methods employed. I am much more partial to the more simple, non combined stats like TS%, Reb% etc.

Do you have a problem with the methods employed, or more the idea of shoving everything into one (or something else)?

The problem is the weights they attribute. All the evidence out there demonstrates the diminishing returns to defensive rebounds. They finally adjusted to it a bit, but not enough. Anyone who rebounds really well but sucks is a great player according to WP, for the most part. it completely ignores defense. It undervalues scoring. It's the bizzaro-PER.

Dirk was an average player last season. AVERAGE. They claim Kidd is a far better player than Dirk right now and last season. That Kidd, Chandler, and Marion were more responsible each for the title.

Think about that. Can we take this seriously?

They attribute zero value to the ability to draw double teams or hit end of clock shots that are tough.

edit: put it this way. They took team statistics and extrapolated that for individual players. Which is wrong. What works at the team level doesn't at the individual level, because team stats measure everything.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Players of the month awards.

Lebron in the East
Durant in the West

Again, there is no debate who the only candidates for MVP are right now.

Tony Parker and George Hill?

I'm also OK with giving Nash another one since the poor guy'll probably never win a ring.

Almost forgot, I think Rodman is the #1 player in NBA history. And 5 Rodmans will defeat 5 Shaqs/jordans/Duncans. Pretty sure I've seen that argument laid out.

5 Shaqs would suck. You'd just hack him, hope he makes the 2nd FT so there is no rebound, and then sprint across the court with your 5 Jordans and dunk lol.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Bill Russell won 11 rings, Mikan won 5 Rings, Jordan 6, Kobe 5, Timmy 4, Magic 5, Bird 3, Hakeem 2, West won 2 but made the finals 9 times.

that's 43 chips between 9 guys.

I'm obviously not counting Cousy, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, D-Rob or Pippen as they won the majority of their rings with the above cast of characters.


You are on absolute crack if you don't think hyper competitive super skilled alpha dog players don't win rings. Every one of those championship teams had great teams, every one had role players that had huge games or played big...but it doesn't change the fact that you win in the NBA with a hyper competitive all time great caliber player running your team.


The NFL isn't very different. You win in the NFL with super skilled amazing QB's. Brady 4, Big Ben 3, Brees 1, Eli 2, Peyton 1 etc.

Let's say you put Kobe or Bird in Charlotte (sorry Bobcats fans). Or just any team that has a less than great FO. Do you think he would win the championships, just because of his will to win? A lot of shit has to come together for a championship to happen.

If Kobe doesn't have an allstar beside him he doesn't win in the playoffs. Is that Kobe's fault? I wouldn't say so--his team wasn't that great. But it goes both ways. When he wins, its not all him. Most of those guys won championships because their FO's were great and their teams were loaded. FO's have nothing to do with what the player does on the court. Get where I'm coming from?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Is Eli Manning a scumbag?

He told the Chargers if they drafted him, he wasn't gonna play.

 

[DY_nasty]

Is Eli Manning a scumbag?

He told the Chargers if they drafted him, he wasn't gonna play.

The lowest of the low

But people don't realize how many guys pretty much tell teams straight up that they don't want to play for them. Every declined workout is a "fuck you".

 

[Canuck76]

The lowest of the low

But people don't realize how many guys pretty much tell teams straight up that they don't want to play for them. Every declined workout is a "fuck you".

Yeah he's a scumbag. I would also argue that he's the weakest part of his teams.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

The problem is the weights they attribute. All the evidence out there demonstrates the diminishing returns to defensive rebounds. They finally adjusted to it a bit, but not enough. Anyone who rebounds really well but sucks is a great player according to WP, for the most part. it completely ignores defense. It undervalues scoring. It's the bizzaro-PER.

Dirk was an average player last season. AVERAGE. They claim Kidd is a far better player than Dirk right now and last season. That Kidd, Chandler, and Marion were more responsible each for the title.

Think about that. Can we take this seriously?

They attribute zero value to the ability to draw double teams or hit end of clock shots that are tough.

edit: put it this way. They took team statistics and extrapolated that for individual players. Which is wrong. What works at the team level doesn't at the individual level, because team stats measure everything.

Again, I have yet to read through the book to be able to analyze this myself.

Also, I have trouble with believing any advanced defensive statistics. So much of that is coaching, and its too damn volatile.

 

[ph33nix]

Is Eli Manning a scumbag?

He told the Chargers if they drafted him, he wasn't gonna play.

Scum might be too harsh and players have the right to tell teams "I won't stay with you long term" but if you're a rookie I think you should serve your time first

 

[Sanjuro]

You guys.

 

[Duki]

Is Eli Manning a scumbag?

He told the Chargers if they drafted him, he wasn't gonna play.

eli manning is a great champion tho

never not a finals mvp

some of these other guys got carried by men bigger than they are

literally

 

[linsivvi]

Ideally yes, that how MVP should work but Stern doesn't think like that. Otherwise guys like Dwight should win it nearly every year.

Spoiler

And Wade should have won the year he was shooting 49% averaging 30ppg on a completely scrub Miami squad.

Stern has nothing to do with the MVP award. Players of the week/month etc are given out by the league, but the MVP award is decided by the media.

 

[DY_nasty]

Scum might be too harsh and players have the right to tell teams "I won't stay with you long term" but if you're a rookie I think you should serve your time first

They should be humble. So humble.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

eli manning is a great champion tho

never not a finals mvp

some of these other guys got carried by men bigger than they are

literally

Except the 2 times they literally weren't "carried".

 

[Knux-Future]

Hope we don't embarrass ourselves on national tv.........again

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Don't mistake what I wrote for Kobe hate. I respect the guy. He's the third best shooting guard of all time behind Jordan and Wade. But saying that he has more heart because he didn't want to get drafted by the Nets as opposed to leaving in free agency is wrong.





Dude I don't care who you are or what you want. It's scum to force your way to get drafted by a specific team...this ain't nba 2k12

You must have an extremely low opinion of Bron or an extreme case of cognitive dissonance.

 

[reilo]

Oh god, Wins Produced?

Well, this is the end of this discussion.

 

[DY_nasty]

You guys.

Its your fault.

Like you didn't have any part of starting this fuckery.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

You guys.

.

⅄on ƃnʎs

˙

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Well, this is the end of this discussion.

We can scratch that part of the discussion for sure, considering it seems people here have brought up some real issues with it

edit: damn double post

 

[Duki]

Except the 2 times they literally weren't "carried".

tbf

literally carried by the magic

and then pau gasol

 

[Vahagn]

Let's say you put Kobe or Bird in Charlotte (sorry Bobcats fans). Or just any team that has a less than great FO. Do you think he would win the championships, just because of his will to win? A lot of shit has to come together for a championship to happen.

If Kobe doesn't have an allstar beside him he doesn't win in the playoffs. Is that Kobe's fault? I wouldn't say so--his team wasn't that great. But it goes both ways. When he wins, its not all him. Most of those guys won championships because their FO's were great and their teams were loaded. FO's have nothing to do with what the player does on the court. Get where I'm coming from?

You need 5 guys to win a championship...news at 11.


No one is disputing this...what we're saying is that you can't ignore that 9 guys have won 43 chips. If you surround an alpha dog hyper competitive player with a good team...you have a chance of winning, but the alpha dog is crucial.


That's the part you don't get...without that alpha dog you seem to completely believe to be irrelevant, you don't win chips. You need an alpha dog AND a great coach AND a great team...but you NEED the alpha dog. That's step 1. That's why they're the guys that good FO's "build around".


You give Kobe Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and Luke Walton in his prime, he's not winning shit. You upgrade his team slightly at PG and get a quality second fiddle and you get 3 straight finals appearances. Jordan without Pippen / Grant didn't win. But Pippen / Grant without Jordan had no shot in hell. Pau Gasol without Kobe had no shot in hell. McHale and Parish without Bird had no shot in hell.


If "a lot of shit has to come together for a championship to happen" why do 9 guys have 43 chips? That makes it seem like it's a lucky event, but that's not the case at all.

This is Duncan's career arc from 1999-2008...."Did I play/lose to the Lakers in the playoffs this year? no? CHAMPIONSHIP!!!..." That literally was the case, EVERY YEAR, except for 2006 when Dirk beat Duncan...every other year either Duncan lost to the Lakers, or he won a chip.


That tells me, this was a battle between Duncan and Kobe/Shaq because no one else could make the damn guy lose a playoff series.

 

[charsace]

That was after he worked out. West worked him out as a favor to his old agent from what I remember. He was labeled not ready by a bunch of people.

And then he worked out for L.A. and West basically said "He's the future. Give up whoever to get him." Afterwards is when Ainge, Calipari, etc all jumped on, and by then it was too late.

But hey, I understand. 5>4 after all.



Trade pending!

This is bullshit. Kobe was tearing up everyone in workouts. He destroyed every other sg he was matched up against in workouts. The Lakers were picking too far down though so West convinced Kobe and his agent to tell everyone he would only play for the Lakers and that if anyone else drafted him he would play in Italy. If Kobe didn't threaten teams he wouldn't have ended up a Laker.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Sancha, why don't you see the intangibles that Troy Murphy brings which WoW clearly sees? Murphy's total unwillingness to do anything on defense other than boxout his teammates made him hated by his teammates, but that's what united the team! Otherwise, how could they have gotten to those 36 win seasons?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

tbf

literally carried by the magic

and then pau gasol

I'm literally talking about Tim Duncan not getting carried for 2 chips by the Admiral.

Literally, what are you referring to?

 

[Sanjuro]

Its your fault.

Like you didn't have any part of starting this fuckery.

I had zero part of this fuckery. I don't know who is getting fucked and why?

Six beers in. $45

 

[charsace]

No. In my opinion you give the MVP to the best player. AKA Lebron.

Love maybe has a chance to win it a few years down the road when he's more developed, but here: Switch LeBron and Love. Which team gets better?

MVP doesn't work like this. MVP is supposed to actually go to the guy that's most important to a playoff team. If MVP went to the best player Jordan and Shaq would have more MVP's.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

I'm literally talking about Tim Duncan not getting carried for 2 chips by the Admiral.

Literally, what are you referring to?

So was Timmy carried by D-Rob or D-Rob carried by Timmy?

Laker age can't even get their troll straight smh

 

[ryutaro's mama]

So was Timmy carried by D-Rob or D-Rob carried by Timmy?

Laker age can't even get their troll straight smh

Which one is taller?

 

[Duki]

I'm literally talking about Tim Duncan not getting carried for 2 chips by the Admiral.

Literally, what are you referring to?

literally coward kobe

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

You give Kobe Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and Luke Walton in his prime, he's not winning shit. You upgrade his team slightly at PG and get a quality second fiddle and you get 3 straight finals appearances. Jordan without Pippen / Grant didn't win. But Pippen / Grant without Jordan had no shot in hell. Pau Gasol without Kobe had no shot in hell. McHale and Parish without Bird had no shot in hell.

What I'm saying is a lot of players, great players, get stranded on shit teams, shit franchises etc. and don't end up winning anything because they didn't have the FO. You put Kobe on the Wolves or Bobcats and he isn't winning shit. That's my point.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

Bulls finally realized it's the Cavs.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

literally coward kobe

haha