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[Instro]

Do we know if Nintendo is using the 2006 or the 2008 model?

Nope, there could be many more models as well I assume. Its probably a custom model anyway, so we wont really know unless they release the specs or a dev leaks them.

 

[Medalion]

It's Nintendo... it's probably the 2002 model.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

So, you are telling me that even when one of the axis is zeroed (that would be, turning 3D effect off) the 3DS will be creating two images (since perspective depends on the three axis, both images will be equal) and displaying them both? Sounds like a waste of processing power for me.

I'm just going off my understanding of how it works. Earlier in the thread, brain_stew and the tech crew talked about the card's design giving the 3DS "free" supersampling in 2D mode and antialiasing the image. This would only work if two images were being generated in 2D mode.

 

[WillyFive]

It's Nintendo... it's probably the 2002 model.

They did it once. That means that's how it always was and always will be!

 

[charlequin]

Do we know if Nintendo is using the 2006 or the 2008 model?

There isn't a "2006" and "2008" model. There's a whole range of different models with varying numbers of pipelines, different clock speeds, etc. and we won't know until someone either tells us or gets their hands on the final hardware to examine what it looks like.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Brain_stew can the 3DS:

1.Perform Above the PSP
2.Perform on the level of the PSP
3.Perform below the PSP

 

[Snakeyes]

I'm not brain_stew but I'm 100% sure that it's above PSP. But you could technically make it perform below the NES if you wanted to

 

[ILikeFeet]

I'm not brain_stew but I'm 100% sure that it's above PSP. But you could technically make it perform below the NES if you wanted to

Pong. IN 3D!

 

[Silkworm]

So then I take it that the 3DS is more powerful than the innards of a TI-83 calculator?! Woot! 3DS = Wii 2!

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I'm not brain_stew but I'm 100% sure that it's above PSP. But you could technically make it perform below the NES if you wanted to

That is so crazy. Damn I can't wait for this thing. We don't have a release date yet right?

 

[Durante]

That is so crazy. Damn I can't wait for this thing. We don't have a release date yet right?

How is that crazy? PSP is 5 years old. That's a very long time in technology, and even longer in handheld technology. What would be crazy is if it was slower than PSP.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

How is that crazy? PSP is 5 years old. That's a very long time in technology, and even longer in handheld technology. What would be crazy is if it was slower than PSP.

Man has the PSP really been around for 5 years already? Damn I am getting old. Your right that really isn't a testament I guess but still makes me excited.

 

[Gospel]

So then I take it that the 3DS is more powerful than the innards of a TI-83 calculator?! Woot! 3DS = Wii 2!

Too bad it doesn't come with a bag of crisps.

 

[Silkworm]

Man has the PSP really been around for 5 years already? Damn I am getting old. Your right that really isn't a testament I guess but still makes me excited.

I'm very happy with what Nintendo is aiming at with the 3DS (a nice price/performance ratio as always), but it will be interesting to see where Sony goes with the PSP2 since they set the bar so high initially with the PSP. Of course I'm not paying >$200 for a handheld, so if Sony creates a handheld in that price range, I won't be very interested from a realistic standpoint. Still from a technical standpoint it should be interesting to see how far Sony will push things with their PSP2 whenever they decide to release it.

 

[Silkworm]

Too bad it doesn't come with a bag of crisps.

The bag of 3D crisps will run you an extra $25 as downloadable extra ;-)

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I'm very happy with what Nintendo is aiming at with the 3DS (a nice price/performance ratio as always), but it will be interesting to see where Sony goes with the PSP2 since they set the bar so high initially with the PSP. Of course I'm not paying >$200 for a handheld, so if Sony creates a handheld in that price range, I won't be very interested from a realistic standpoint. Still from a technical standpoint it should be interesting to see how far Sony will push things with their PSP2 whenever they decide to release it.

In all honesty we may not see a PSP2 at all judging by how things are going.

Does anyone know if Sony actually made any money off of the PSP? I mean unlike the PS3, which was useful in the war against HDDVD, even the media format the PSP was carrying was a flop.

 

[Dr. Light]

Brain_stew can the 3DS:

1.Perform Above the PSP
2.Perform on the level of the PSP
3.Perform below the PSP

Yes, it can do all of those things.

 

[Silkworm]

In all honesty we may not see a PSP2 at all judging by how things are going.

Does anyone know if Sony actually made any money off of the PSP? I mean unlike the PS3, which was useful in the war against HDDVD, even the media format the PSP was carrying was a flop.

Well I'm thinking more than a year or so from now. The new Marcus PSP ad campaign makes me think that the PSP2 won't be coming out until late 2011 (winter 2011?). But who knows, maybe they'll just drop it on us a sneak attack on the 3DS (do they want to give the 3DS a year head start?). Not likely but you never know.

 

[Gospel]

The bag of 3D crisps will run you an extra $25 as downloadable extra ;-)

Funnily enough, you reminded me how much I miss Doritos 3D. I'd totally pay 25 dollars for some now

I remember Sony mentioned a 10 year plan for the PSP recently. Can't see a PSP dos coming out anytime soon anyway.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I remember Sony mentioned a 10 year plan for the PSP recently.

Really? That's cute.

 

[Silkworm]

Funnily enough, you reminded me how much I miss Doritos 3D. I'd totally pay 25 dollars for some now

I remember Sony mentioned a 10 year plan for the PSP recently. Can't see a PSP dos coming out anytime soon anyway.

I think Doritos should see the 3DS as a golden opportunity to reintroduce the Doritos 3D. Just call them Doritos 3DS! So easy to market and think of the synergy produced by such cross-commercialization. :-D

 

[Chittagong]

Man has the PSP really been around for 5 years already? Damn I am getting old. Your right that really isn't a testament I guess but still makes me excited.

six soon. launched 2004 in Japan. It was crazy alien scifi tech back then :lol

 

[Medalion]

The PSP was quite ahead of the game, so to speak... everybody thought Sony would make a 16-bit/32-bit hand-held, so that's probably why the DS is pretty much that... Nintendo did not count on the fact Sony would be essentially releasing a portable, slightly less powerful, PS2. Nintendo is only just playing catch-up and still trying to be somewhat ahead.

 

[M3d10n]

The problem with GCN/Wii is that most of the effects needed to make games look nice (and which were featured heavily in Nintendo's own games) required the use of special code utilizing TEV to combine registers and create the effects -- it worked completely differently from how you'd create the same effects on other architectures and there wasn't real support for using it effectively available anywhere.

The problem with the TEV isn't much the complexity of setting up the stages (which is similar to using an abacus to do your accounting).

The main problem is that, in reality, the practical effects one can do with the TEV are very limited. It's unable to produce proper per-pixel lighting with specular: light and view vectors are not available for the TEV to work on (with the Xbox the vertex shaders were used to calculate those and pass them for the pixel pipeline).

At most devs could use the indirect texturing to "deform" a blurry specular map, faking per-pixel specular (SMG, Klonoa), but it was always locked to the camera angle since enviroment maps are position and view direction independent. The effect only looks good for games where the camera has restricted movement and rotates around other objects. In first person or close-cam 3rd person games the illusion breaks down (in SMG, get close to a normal mapped object and get into first person: the specular moves crazily with the camera).

Again, the Xbox's register combiners were very similar to the TEV. But it had vertex shaders to calculate view/light vectors and cubemap support (which could be used for view-dependent reflection and to normalize vectors per pixel, which is crucial for Doom3-style lighting).

 

[Instro]

It's Nintendo... it's probably the 2002 model.

Now your just being optimistic man. Stop getting everyone's hopes up.

On a related note, I wasn't on GAF prior to the release of the current consoles and handhelds. How likely is it that someone other than Nintendo will release the specs(3rd party) before release, and if so can we expect them well in advance or not for awhile?

 

[pirata]

six soon. launched 2004 in Japan. It was crazy alien scifi tech back then :lol

I specifically remember Gamespot referring to it as an "alien device" back then. What makes me nervous about the 3DS right now is that it is in much the situation the PSP was in before launch--huge amount of hype, mostly console ports and console-like games at launch, people saying that its competitor was completely doomed...but I think that the 3DS has a better destiny in store. At the very worst, we'll get some bitchin' Nintendo-developed games.

 

[DonMigs85]

six soon. launched 2004 in Japan. It was crazy alien scifi tech back then :lol

My cousin got one early in April 2005, I wasn't impressed by the Tony Hawk game but Ridge Racer really blew us away at the time.

 

[AceBandage]

I specifically remember Gamespot referring to it as an "alien device" back then. What makes me nervous about the 3DS right now is that it is in much the situation the PSP was in before launch--huge amount of hype, mostly console ports and console-like games at launch, people saying that its competitor was completely doomed...but I think that the 3DS has a better destiny in store. At the very worst, we'll get some bitchin' Nintendo-developed games.

The PSP had a lot going against it, though.
Price, battery life, storage medium, being marketed as an all in one media device rather than a gaming system, easily hackable from the beginning/

 

[charlequin]

(cool stuff)

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[edible_candle]

Nifty

I love this stuff. But I am curious, how did Factor 5 manage to pull off all the crazy effects they did in the Rogue Squadron games (normal maps, self-shadowing, multitudes of light sources)? They still seem to be in another league technically compared to everything else on the Wii/Gamecube.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I love this stuff. But I am curious, how did Factor 5 manage to pull off all the crazy effects they did in the Rogue Squadron games (normal maps, self-shadowing, multitudes of light sources)? They still seem to be in another league technically compared to everything else on the Wii/Gamecube.

Factor 5 grew up in the 8-bit and 16-bit home computer era. Back then you really had to employ every trick in the book to make the system do what you wanted. Unlike other developers Factor 5 never seemed to lose those skills, and thus they were able to really push the Gamecube right from the start.

 

[Log4Girlz]

After seeing that Resident evil trailer, ok the 3DS is above the PSP.

 

[brain_stew]

Man, that Futuremark tech demo I uploaded to Youtube is approaching 200k views and it was on less than 300 yesterday morning! :lol

That's the first thing I've ever uploaded to Youtube as well. :lol

 

[Cipherr]

I dont understand the article. It seemed to me like Iwata was stating he WASNT expecting to make profit off of the 3ds at launch per unit (I.E. expecting to lose money on each system sold for a while). Did I misunderstand the title of that article?

 

[ILikeFeet]

I dont understand the article. It seemed to me like Iwata was stating he WASNT expecting to make profit off of the 3ds at launch per unit (I.E. expecting to lose money on each system sold for a while). Did I misunderstand the title of that article?

Possibly. Nintendo always expects to profit off of their units, so anything otherwise would be out of character:

 

[Fafalada]

Are you referring to how the PS2 couldn't do angle-dependent mipmapping

Not so much "couldn't" as "didn't". There were a chosen few titles that implemented correction in VU code (it was relatively cheap to add, just a huge bother to do). But I disgress...

Because based on these screenshots, it looks to me like the 3DS is capable of it.

The road in the MarioKart shot you posted is aliased to hell and back near the horizon. The only reason it's not noticeable closer to camera, is because texture is low-res to begin with. Anyway this issue is most obvious in videos (texture shimmering everywhere). Kid-Icarus direct feed is a really good example of it.
Again, I can only speculate to reasons why at the moment (it's entirely possible for developers to intentionally cause texture-aliasing if they so chose), but it's happening in most media I've seen.

 

[brain_stew]

You're scaring me Faf, I don't want another system plagued by texture aliasing!

And boo at any developers that choose to have texture aliasing, that's just sick and twisted.

Edit: I just rewatched the KI video and yep, sure enough its there and looks just as bad as it does on the PSP........ :/

 

[Branduil]

Not so much "couldn't" as "didn't". There were a chosen few titles that implemented correction in VU code (it was relatively cheap to add, just a huge bother to do). But I disgress...


The road in the MarioKart shot you posted is aliased to hell and back near the horizon. The only reason it's not noticeable closer to camera, is because texture is low-res to begin with. Anyway this issue is most obvious in videos (texture shimmering everywhere). Kid-Icarus direct feed is a really good example of it.
Again, I can only speculate to reasons why at the moment (it's entirely possible for developers to intentionally cause texture-aliasing if they so chose), but it's happening in most media I've seen.

You're right about the horizon, but I was more talking about near the karts. The grout between the bricks in the road becomes blurry real fast, which is usually a giveaway for mipmaps.

 

[camineet]

apparently, 3DS is powerful enough to run a version of Capcom's MT Framework engine:

3DS Resident Evil Uses MT Framework

Capcom updates the local press on its 3DS Resident Evil, complete with a trailer.
Posted Jun 22, 2010 at 12:44, By Anoop Gantayat

MT Framework powers high tech HD console games like Lost Planet 2 and Resident Evil 5. But it's also apparently diverse-enough for the small screen.

4Gamer reported today that Resident Evil Revelations uses the toolkit. Wrote the site, "This game is being produced using the MT Framework that was developed for use with the Nintendo 3DS to deliver 3D visuals and quality comparable to console systems."

Separate from the visuals, the site says the game will take advantage of the 3DS being a portable machine.

I presume the info for the 4Gamer story comes from Capcom's Japanese offices, which is briefing local media on E3 happenings. The trailer in the story, streamable below, is a Japanese trailer, with all the appropriate ratings, and "Biohazard" instead of "Resident Evil."

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/22/3ds_resident_evil_mt_framework/

 

[camineet]

That video looked like mid PSX era CG.

yeah, i'd pretty much agree.

 

[cyberheater]

apparently, 3DS is powerful enough to run a version of Capcom's MT Framework engine:



http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/22/3ds_resident_evil_mt_framework/

The 3DS gets more amazing as the news filters in. The thought of playing a version of Lost Planet on it with comparable graphics to a console version is frankly astonishing.

 

[camineet]

Nintendo 3DS GPU outed
Published on 22nd June 2010 by Gareth Halfacree

The graphics chip in the 3DS will be the DMP PICA200 - and not the Ion, as rumoured.
Nintendo has revealed details of the GPU which will form the heart of its 3DS hand-held - and in a surprising move, it's not one you're likely to have heard of.

According to THINQ.co.uk, earlier rumours that the device would be based around Nvidia's Ion chipset are untrue - instead, Nintendo has opted to use a graphics system from a small start-up local to Japan called Digital Media Professionals.

The DMP PICA200 chip will form the heart of the 3DS platform, and is due to offer Nintendo a major upgrade from the 2004-era technology that makes up the DS hand-held: with the PICA200 under its belt, the 3DS will become the first console in the company's history to feature programmable shaders.

While programmable shaders on their own don't necessarily correspond to a confirmation of claims that the 3DS would be more powerful than the fixed-pipeline GPU found in the Wii, it will offer the company - and, more importantly, developers - more flexibility, which could well correspond to more impressive visuals.

As well as the programmable shaders, the PICA200 - originally shown at the Siggraph conference in 2006, so a proven if slightly ageing technology - will bring 2x anti-aliasing, per-pixel lighting, and soft shadows to the platform, along with full support for OpenGL ES 1.1.

With an expected performance somewhere around that of the original Xbox console - which, for a hand-held, is high praise indeed - the PICA200 chip could well be the secret sauce that wins the hand-held console war for Nintendo, providing performance and power usage characteristics quoted by the company prove true.

Are you impressed at the possibilities offered by the DMP PICA200, or would Nintendo have been better of partnering with one of the larger graphics outfits? Share your thoughts over in the forums.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2010/06/22/nintendo-3ds-gpu-outed/1

 

[cyberheater]

The DMP PICA200 chip will form the heart of the 3DS platform, and is due to offer Nintendo a major upgrade from the 2004-era technology that makes up the DS hand-held: with the PICA200 under its belt, the 3DS will become the first console in the company's history to feature programmable shaders.

So can we assume that in the right hands, the graphics could look better then Wii?

 

[Durante]

Another so-called "tech site" outed as not really knowing the first thing about their subject. Too bad, so sad.

 

[Tormentoso]

The PSP had a lot going against it, though.
Price, battery life, storage medium, being marketed as an all in one media device rather than a gaming system, easily hackable from the beginning/

You forgot the most important,going against the market leader,in a market in which no one has been even close to the leader,the psp is the closes thing to a success that it has been on the portable market,it has sold like what 50 million units,hell the 360 has 10 million less and is consider a success by many,even that it started the gen and was over taken.

Sony did well,they just refuse to enter a price war on the portable market,the psp should be way lower in price,maybe they see no point on it already knowing they already loss big time.

As for the 3DS power doesn't surprise me at all the thing is slated for 2011 by that time the PSP will be 6 years old,yet the 3DS beat it not by much.

 

[camineet]

Nintendo Chooses Japan's Pica 3D Engine Over AMD, Nvidia
Sumner Lemon, IDG News
Jun 22, 2010 2:20 am


Nintendo's 3DS portable game console will uses a graphics processing engine designed by a Japanese company, which was selected over technology from graphics heavyweights like Nvidia and Advanced Micro Devices, an analyst said.

Digital Media Professionals (DMP), of Tokyo, announced on Monday that its PICA200 graphics technology was being used by Nintendo, ending speculation over who developed the graphics engine for the new game console. The 3DS, which Nintendo first showed off during the E3 games conference last week, is the successor to the company's popular Nintendo DS handheld gaming console.

Like the DS, the prototype 3DS shown off at E3 had two screens, one measuring 3.5 inches on top and another measuring 3 inches below. But the console's principal feature is the ability to display 3D graphics that don't require the user to wear special glasses -- a feature that's made possible by DMP's graphics engine.

The deal with Nintendo gives DMP a big boost.

Nintendo chose the company's graphics technology after considering technology from AMD's ATI division, which designed the graphics chips used in Nintendo's Wii console and Microsoft's Xbox 360 console, wrote graphics analyst Jon Peddie on his blog. Other companies that Nintendo considered include Nvidia, which designed the graphics chips in Sony's PlayStation 3, as well as Arm, the developer of the graphics technology used in the Nintendo DS.

Another company that Nintendo considered in its three-year search for the right graphics technology was Imagination Technologies, a U.K. developer of graphics technology that counts Apple as a shareholder, he wrote.

Nintendo selected DMP last year, Peddie said. Since then, the company has been working to integrate DMP's technology into the 3DS, working to make sure the graphics engine could be integrated with other components and offer the combination of power efficiency and performance that the device requires, he said,

"The bottom line is that amazing high-end graphics functions in a low-cost handheld device with stereovision is not only possible, it has arrived. The 3DS graphics has a lot of head room to be further exploited and we're expecting to be really thrilled to see and play with what Nintendo and its partners have at launch," Peddie wrote.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/199486/nintendo_chooses_japans_pica_3d_engine_over_amd_nvidia.html

 

[blu]

in other words, nintendo considered vendors one would normally consider for such a project. how bizarre.

 

[camineet]

It's iteresting they concidered Imagination Technologies, probably for PowerVR SGX.

 

[Vic]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/199486/nintendo_chooses_japans_pica_3d_engine_over_amd_nvidia.html

He's just guessing that those companies were considered...

 

[RoadHazard]

But the console's principal feature is the ability to display 3D graphics that don't require the user to wear special glasses -- a feature that's made possible by DMP's graphics engine.

Uhm, yeah, the parallax barrier screen (which is from Sharp) is what makes glasses-free stereoscopic 3D possible, not the GPU. Sure, it plays a part in it (rendering the two frames and displaying them interleaved on the LCD), but to say that their "graphics engine" is what makes it possible isn't true.