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[spwolf]

Can we leave away this crap from tech threads, plz?

no need to worry, it was not an negative post at all, just observation ;-).

I dont see why is everyone up on "if it is same graphical power as GC, DC or Wii".. I think we should worry if it is priced at $199 rather.

 

[DataBot]

Can we leave away this crap from tech threads, plz?

Well isnt trolling banable i think so.

 

[camineet]

so now we need to know the two key performance factors here: # of pixel pipelines and clockspeed.

 

[camineet]

Nintendo 3DS Graphics Core Revealed
by Leigh Alexander



June 21, 2010


Nintendo's 3DS stole the show at the just-wrapped E3 2010, and now details on the technology at the core of its graphics are emerging in the form of an announcement from Japanese hardware firm Digital Media Professional.

DMP says its Pica 200 graphics core processor is powering the 3DS, along with proprietary 3D graphics extensions it calls "Maestro technology."

According to the company, it implements "complex shader functionality" through the hardware to enable high-performance graphics to be rendered on mobile devices that require low power consumption.

"We had a very ambitious goal in the realization of naked-eye 3D stereo vision, and video game console style high quality graphics rendering, whilst maintaining low power consumption," says the company's president and CEO, Tatsuo Yamamoto. "I am delighted that we were able to contribute with ‘Maestro technology’, which we have developed over several years at DMP."

The device received an enormously positive reception from analysts, fans and the media when it was shown at E3. Wedbush analysts Michael Pachter and Edward Woo described it as "truly impressive" and a device that "appears to us to be the 'must have' consumer electronics product over the next few years."

Signal Hill analyst Todd Greenwald was also impressed with the glasses-free 3D technology of the device, which also contains a gyroscope for tilt sensitivity and a 3D camera, and suggested "the only thing that could derail the 3DS now is too high of a price point. We think $199 is the best bet."

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29030/Nintendo_3DS_Graphics_Core_Revealed.php

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Is this a good GPU? How does it compare to Flipper in Gamecube / Hollywood in Wii ?

It's much more capable and will seem a lot more familiar to those used to programming for modern GPUs. The question of polygon pushing will have to wait until we know more about the clock speed and this particular variant.

 

[M3d10n]

The "Maestro" graphics extension is a genius idea for a handheld:

1) With unified shaders a large number of variables affect performance in ways that are hard to predict. This would be a step backwards from the DS, where it was very easy to measure performance and know exactly how complex the models and textures were to be made to make full use of the device. The Maestro extensions are building blocks for pre-defined effects and thus can have predictable performance costs.

2) Handheld-only developers often have little experience with shaders and being able to just set a few flags to get per-pixel lighting or self-shadowing will help them make full use of the hardware without much difficulty.

Also, since it's coming from a much smaller manufacturer than NVidia, PowerVR or AMD, and the hardware seems designed around hard-wiring algorithms, it's much easier for nintendo to have ordered it customized for backwards compatibility, by including the DS-specific features directly into the hardware.

 

[plagiarize]

no need to worry, it was not an negative post at all, just observation ;-).

I dont see why is everyone up on "if it is same graphical power as GC, DC or Wii".. I think we should worry if it is priced at $199 rather.

it's as lame as it was when people threw it at the sony fans over the PS3. i may have been guilty of similar statements back then (and broken search won't let me check), but i see why they were stupid now.

of course graphics matter, and everyone would ALWAYS like better graphics on any given system, but they aren't everything and never have been.

but this is a tech thread, so such talk isn't really relevant or interesting.

the successor to the DS is expected to have better graphics. everyone wants that whatever flag they may or may not be flying. the PSP came out after the DS and was more expensive. so yeah, it was expected to have better graphics and it did, but not everybody liked the practical cost it came with (comparatively poor battery life).

clearly though in the handheld space the stuff the DS brought to the table was more interesting to most people than what the PSP did. if the DS had everything it had and PSP graphics for the right price, it would no doubt have done even better.

nintendo have a good track record of making their handhelds powerful enough without making them too expensive or too power hungry.

this chip would indicate that they're looking for value again (bang per buck and battery efficiency)... which should have people optimistic about the price of the system.

 

[spwolf]

it's as lame as it was when people threw it at the sony fans over the PS3. i may have been guilty of similar statements back then (and broken search won't let me check), but i see why they were stupid now.

of course graphics matter, and everyone would ALWAYS like better graphics on any given system, but they aren't everything and never have been.

...


this chip would indicate that they're looking for value again (bang per buck and battery efficiency)... which should have people optimistic about the price of the system.

really nice post, takes a man.... I would like it to be as good graphically as possible while still hitting some normal price range. Maybe i grew up a bit ;-).

 

[charlequin]

But wasn't that the same limitation as what the GCN/Wii had? That the TEV was fixed function?

The problem with GCN/Wii is that most of the effects needed to make games look nice (and which were featured heavily in Nintendo's own games) required the use of special code utilizing TEV to combine registers and create the effects -- it worked completely differently from how you'd create the same effects on other architectures and there wasn't real support for using it effectively available anywhere.

PICA200 is also fixed-function, but it's built to be much more usable -- it has a variety of prebuilt effects (self-shadowing, normal maps, etc.) that a developer can make use of through an exposed API just by calling for the effect they want.

Given that most of the games on the 3DS are likely going to be comparitively low-budget affairs, how many developers would actually want to spend the time programming their own shaders? Seems like being able to do some API calls would be much faster and cheaper anyway.

Well... I can agree if you mean "comparative to PS360 and high-end PC games," at least. I think it's a reasonable tradeoff; it'll hurt the ability of top-end games to push completely unique effects, perhaps, but it ought to help make it much easier for "average" games to use decent effects and produce better overall images -- exactly the opposite of Wii where most middling games look much worse than they ought to given the hardware's level of theoretical capability.

On a tangent, I've heard that the PSP "cheated" in its hardware by employing something not meant for portables--can someone elaborate on that?

It used a GPU whose size, heat output and power consumption was more comparable at launch to a laptop GPU than a typical mobile part. It put PSP way ahead of what you'd expect in a system that size in 2004, but it came at the expense of battery life and a few other design decisions (size of the 1000 model, for example.)

I think we should worry if it is priced at $199 rather.

Well hopefully someone will put out a press release announcing the price soon and we can talk about that too. :lol

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

I wanted gamecube level graphics on the new DS and Nintendo delivered.

Will buy!

 

[EatChildren]

So, based on what we know, which appears to still be relatively little, would it technically be able to achieve any game on the PSP? Or is there a PSP game that the 3DS might find difficult?

 

[FoneBone]

So, based on what we know, which appears to still be relatively little, would it technically be able to achieve any game on the PSP? Or is there a PSP game that the 3DS might find difficult?

Looks like it, though I don't think we can be sure until there are more detailed specs out.

 

[Medalion]

This graphics chip the PICA200 is a 2nd generation chipset, so is it these specs?

I notice the pic in that above is the one from the video demo floating around about the 3DS.

 

[Snakeyes]

We don't know yet.

 

[Medalion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV6rORIUDAg

Link to HD version of that tech demo

 

[yencid]

was this posted?
http://www.hardcoreware.net/nintendo-3ds-specs-comparison/

 

[Instro]

I drew up a little chart comparing the 3DS specs to the PSP and iPhone 3GS (thanks for finding the slide, Karas!).

It's hard to draw a conclusion right now, since the specs they list are for 100 MHz clock speed. They say that it draws up to 1 mW per 1 MHz clock speed, so at 400 MHz, it is only drawing 400 mW.

I quickly tested my PSP-1000 to see how much power it draws in a top 3D game (MGS Peace Walker should suffice) and it it drawing up to 2100 mW during a 3D scene with the lowest screen brightness. Sitting in the main menu, it draws 1500 mW, so that tells us that the combination of 3D and audio is drawing 600 mW. It isn't unreasonable to assume most of that is going to 3D (certainly up to 400 mW) which puts it right in line with a 400 Mhz Pico 200 chip in the 3DS.

It's hard to draw a conclusion from 100 Mhz specs though, since fill rate may not scale directly with clock speed (vertex rate should though, I think)

Kind of confused, why did you put the triangles per second at 30.6 million when the 2008 version says it does 40 million?

 

[Yoschi]

Found another Pica200 techdemo (short video in the banner): http://www.nifco-at.co.jp/

that looks pretty wicked. funny animations LoL

Figure Maestro

I dont know whats a good example for it... feel free to add it when when quoting me.

the street on the mario kart screenshot:

but it could be used anywhere where round surfaces/edges are needed really.
The fact that the 3ds can do this effects is so awesome! Anyone remember ATI's TRUFORM?

sadly it's wasn't used much, but since it's so accessible on the 3ds now we might see it being used more often and more efficiently

 

[Snakeyes]

snip

Yes, and I think that a member of this board runs the site.

 

[yencid]

Yes, and I think that a member of this board runs the site.

ah pretty cool, it was actually pretty understandable as well

 

[SkinnyPupp]

Kind of confused, why did you put the triangles per second at 30.6 million when the 2008 version says it does 40 million?

I was basing it off the latest spec sheet, which states 15.3M triangles at 200 MHz. I'm not sure where the 40M number at 100 MHz came from in that 2008 slide, I think it might be a typo or something.

Once you compare the specs, it looks more realstic. Because I highly doubt this chip is pushing 160 million polys at 400 Mhz

 

[Instro]

I was basing it off the latest spec sheet, which states 15.3M triangles at 200 MHz. I'm not sure where the 40M number at 100 MHz came from in that 2008 slide, I think it might be a typo or something.

Once you compare the specs, it looks more realstic. Because I highly doubt this chip is pushing 160 million polys at 400 Mhz

I think it was indicated in this thread that those are from 2006, Im assuming the 2008 specs were saying that its 40 million at 400mhz.

 

[blu]

I think it was indicated in this thread that those are from 2006, Im assuming the 2008 specs were saying that its 40 million at 400mhz.

the 2008 specs clearly say 40M @100MHz. there's nothing suspicious there - apparently they bumped the number of vertex shader units in the basic core configuration, and maybe increased the throughput of those units too. assuming they made a typo is just unjustified.

 

[plagiarize]

that looks pretty wicked. funny animations LoL


the street on the mario kart screenshot:

but it could be used anywhere where round surfaces/edges are needed really.
The fact that the 3ds can do this effects is so awesome! Anyone remember ATI's TRUFORM?

sadly it's wasn't used much, but since it's so accessible on the 3ds now we might see it being used more often and more efficiently

the effect needed to clean up the mesh isn't anything to do with geometry. you need transparency AA which i'm not sure this can do.

tesselation (like seen in truform) is making a bit of a come back as it's part of the DX11 feature set. i doubt that the 3DS will benefit much from it though. it was meant to be an extra feature you could turn on if you had the overhead to use it.

if there's a memory bottleneck somewhere between the cart and the gpu maybe it could be used as a form of model compression, but i'd imagine that all the models will be made to the right spec upfront as they've just got one hardware target to worry about.

 

[SkinnyPupp]

I think it was indicated in this thread that those are from 2006, Im assuming the 2008 specs were saying that its 40 million at 400mhz.

Well all I know is, the PDF was linked in their latest updated website. If they say 40M at 400 Mhz (without stating clock speed) then 400 Mpixel fillrate at 100 Mhz (with the clock speed stated) that is pretty misleading.

Anyway, if it is 40M at 400 Mhz, that's close enough to our estimate to be useful, which is total speculation anyway. For all we know, they could be using a stripped down version of the chip, with 2 pixels per clock and a 200 MHz clock speed

 

[Instro]

the 2008 specs clearly say 40M @100MHz. there's nothing suspicious there - apparently they bumped the number of vertex shader units in the basic core configuration, and maybe increased the throughput of those units too. assuming they made a typo is just unjustified.

Ok, I was just assuming 160M@400 was too much or something. How does that compare to gpu's seen in Dreamcast/PS2/GC though?

EDIT

This is all so confusing btw :lol

 

[blu]

Ok, I was just assuming 160M@400 was too much or something. How does that compare to gpu's seen in Dreamcast/PS2/GC though?

keep in mind those quoted numbers are for bare-bone unlit computations - ie. just transforming the vertex to clipping space. in comparison, GC is 15M for multi-light lit vertices (IIRC).

anyhow, we don't know what the PICA in the 3DS is specced like, so guessing how it compares to other consoles is a bit futile. ok, aside from the fact 3DS' PICA will be likely faster than the DC, which used its CPU for vertex work and thus did not perform particularly well at the task. .. you could say it had an 'application/vertex-processing unified shader' unit ;p

 

[Branduil]

They aren't, it's just how hw performs mipmap selection that makes aliasing on oblique surfaces prominent. PS2 had the same issue.
3DS media so far exhibits the same problems, which could suggest similar hw-implementation.

Are you referring to how the PS2 couldn't do angle-dependent mipmapping? Because based on these screenshots, it looks to me like the 3DS is capable of it.

 

[Pirabear]

This thread doesn't have enough winking emotes.

 

[Binabik15]

Kind of late, but what can I do?

IMO AA is the one thing that PSP graphics needed to be 100% acceptable for me. If this has as many sharp jaggies as 3d PSP games I´ll rage. However, if the 3d effect really adds "AA", I´ll be fine with whatever this thing turns out to be in the end. I don´t need super detailed textures or incredible draw distance on a handheld, just fantastic IQ.

I look forward to a demo unit or whatever, because besides TWW I rarely played GC games, so I have no idea how game looked on it in general. I know that RE4 looked better on it and tbh, RE4 portable would be pretty sexy. Just make the laser dot bigger and I´d buy it at a high price.

I don´t really care about battery life, either, really, I´ve had maybe three instances of not being able to play my PSP due to low battery. Give me enough juice for 5 hours and some OC up in that bitch, please

Spoiler

Yes, I know that it´ll never happen.

 

[Medalion]

In the end, all this powerful handheld GPU technology don't mean shit if the developers are lazy and create sub-quality graphics closer to N64+ than Dreamcast/GC graphics.

 

[koam]

Doesn't the processor need to display 2 screens + 3d? won't that take away from some of its horsepower?

 

[Medalion]

The bottom screen rarely displays anything graphically intensive.

The 3D effect is more draining on the GPU, yes.

This graphics processor could support a higher resolution screen or multiple higher resolution screens, I think it will be fine.

 

[Pimpbaa]

In the end, all this powerful handheld GPU technology don't mean shit if the developers are lazy and create sub-quality graphics closer to N64+ than Dreamcast/GC graphics.

Yeah but this GPU seems like it was made for lazy developers.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Doesn't the processor need to display 2 screens + 3d? won't that take away from some of its horsepower?

If it is like the DS, the main processor will be focused on the main screen, in this case the top one, and the secondary processor used for the bottom screen. And I'm sure developers can adjust how much of the second processor is used, etc.

And I believe in some cases the DS was capable of 3D on both screens. So, if needed with the more powerful secondary processor(we know it has to be there for DS/DSi compatibility), developers can play around with that.

 

[ombz]

I don't get how MGS on the 3DS look as good as the PSP version while the 3DS has to render the image twice for the 3D, but the comparison chart says the 3DS isn't as powerful as the PSP.

 

[Medalion]

I don't see where they say the PSP is overall more powerful than the 3DS.

 

[Instro]

I don't get how MGS on the 3DS look as good as the PSP version while the 3DS has to render the image twice for the 3D, but the comparison chart says the 3DS isn't as powerful as the PSP.

Well the 3DS version looks better. The comparison chart numbers really dont mean anything at the moment since they are just guesses based off some data. Those estimates may or may not be way off as well if we account for the numbers shown in the 2008 version of the gpu.

Besides that the 3DS uses a more modern gpu allowing for a number of effects that the PSP is unable to do, so even if for some strange reason the 3DS actually ended up pushing less polys than the PSP, the games themselves would still end up looking significantly better.

 

[brain_stew]

I don't get how MGS on the 3DS look as good as the PSP version while the 3DS has to render the image twice for the 3D, but the comparison chart says the 3DS isn't as powerful as the PSP.

He picked those numbers out of his arse, ignore that article at all costs.

 

[SkinnyPupp]

He picked those numbers out of his arse, ignore that article at all costs.

Is there more solid info out there right now?

Nope.

When there is, the article will be updated.

Avoiding it would be a bad idea if you want to remain informed

I do have a feeling that you probably know more about the chip than most of us.. Feel free to drop a line if you can

 

[Panajev2001a]

Are you referring to how the PS2 couldn't do angle-dependent mipmapping? Because based on these screenshots, it looks to me like the 3DS is capable of it.

Well, PS2 could do mip-mapping, it just would be able to select mip-map level based on distance from the camera alone. PS2 would not do anisotropic filtering either... I do not remember if it is listed in this PICA200 GPU specifications...

 

[brain_stew]

Is there more solid info out there right now?

Nope.

When there is, the article will be updated.

Avoiding it would be a bad idea if you want to remain informed

I do have a feeling that you probably know more about the chip than most of us.. Feel free to drop a line if you can

You have no where near enough information to put even a speulative figure down.

The chip could have as many as 1-4 pipelines and vertex shaders and be clocked from anywhere between 100-400mhz (or more considering the extra overhead a process shrink will give). There's an order of magnitude of variation there and absolutely no indication whereabouts it falls. That ~30m figure is pulled from your arse, its completely worthless.

You also seem to place close to no emphasis on the built in effects the GPU has or what they are, make no comment on how absolutely BS Sony's 33m figure is BS or about how stereo 3D doubles your vertex work and all together come off as clueless on the subject. You're trying to drive hits by posting unfounded BS as verified data, its shoddy and again I recommend all GAFers avoid that article like the plague.

Write an article on how the GPU can do lots of advanced shader and shadowing effects in hardware really cheaply by all means, as that's the sort of thing we do know about and the sort of thing that is going to elevate 3DS games above the competition. We're absolutely nowhere closer to figuring out its raw throughput, not that this matters all that much these days anyway.

 

[SkinnyPupp]

You have no where near enough information to put even a speulative figure down.

The chip could have as many as 1-4 pipelines and vertex shaders and be clocked from anywhere between 100-400mhz (or more considering the extra overhead a process shrink will give). There's an order of magnitude of variation there and absolutely no indication whereabouts it falls. That ~30m figure is pulled from your arse, its completely worthless.

You also seem to place close to no emphasis on the built in effects the GPU has or what they are, make no comment on how absolutely BS Sony's 33m figure is and all together come off as clueless. You're trying to drive hits by posting unfounded BS as verified data, its shoddy and again I recommend all GAFers avoid that article like the plague.

There's enough to base speculation on in my opinion, at least as a 'best case scenario'. 4 pipelines at 400 MHz with 1 mW per MHz at 65 nm in 2008. It's not that much of a stretch to consider that totally usable as a final hardware spec in the 3DS. Maybe it's not, but it's what we have to go on. The other specs are taken from their own materials.

There's no emphasis on the built-in effect, because we're only looking at raw rendering performance. You're right in that it is very early to speculate. That's why I am not posting screenshots or commenting too much on the other features of the GPU. We don't even know what CPU it uses yet! How can we say for sure what actual games will look like? That's the first point I made.

Nowhere in the article does it claim that the data is 100% verified, and several times it states (in large bold lettering at that) that this is all pure speculation, going on the numbers that are out there today (within 24 hours of the chip being announced).

If you know more about the chip than the rest of us, please share so we can have the most accurate information possible. But right now, I think my speculation is the best info out there. Until we get final confirmation of what the actual specs will be, it's just a fun comparison to see where we should be basing our expectations. And based on what we have seen at E3 so far, I think it will end up being pretty close.

I think the problem is, you're looking for something that isn't there. You want to know for 100% certain if the 3DS will blow the PSP out of of the water. Or if it will be not much better than a DS. We can't say that right now, but as more information comes through, the article will be updated. Choose to ignore it if you like, you can hear about the final specs from others who use it as a source when we find out more

 

[tea_and_crumpets]

So its like the PS2 but with better shaders and stuff?

 

[wsippel]

Well, PS2 could do mip-mapping, it just would be able to select mip-map level based on distance from the camera alone. PS2 would not do anisotropic filtering either... I do not remember if it is listed in this PICA200 GPU specifications...

I read somewhere that PICA200 does indeed support RIP mapping, which is a form of anisotropic filtering as far as I know.

 

[plagiarize]

Is there more solid info out there right now?

Nope.

When there is, the article will be updated.

Avoiding it would be a bad idea if you want to remain informed

I do have a feeling that you probably know more about the chip than most of us.. Feel free to drop a line if you can

informed of what? made up numbers?

 

[Snakeyes]

I can understand where brain_stew is coming from. A lot of people looking at the chart will instantly jump to conclusions. A better way to put it would be to write;

3DS geomtery: 15.4 - 40 Mpol/s

 

[XiaNaphryz]

informed of what? made up numbers?

Is this possibly the start of another chartz moment?? zomg!

 

[brain_stew]

There's enough to base speculation on in my opinion, at least as a 'best case scenario'. 4 pipelines at 400 MHz with 1 mW per MHz at 65 nm in 2008. It's not that much of a stretch to consider that totally usable as a final hardware spec in the 3DS. Maybe it's not, but it's what we have to go on. .

If you believe that then why are your figures based on a GPU around 1/5 as powerful?

Why not give a range of figures in your table so that its actually accurate?

Best case scenario, even at 65nm is 0.5mw per mhz btw, at 40/45nm (which is the process technology Nintendo will be using), they're pretty much guaranteed to hit less than 1mw/mhz.

If you know more about the chip than the rest of us, please share so we can have the most accurate information possible. But right now, I think my speculation is the best info out there.

:lol

The best info out there is right here at GAF and over at B3D and no one either here or there has tried to put any sort of definitive polys/s figure on Nintendo's chip, we're just 100% in the dark with regards to that.

 

[SkinnyPupp]

If you believe that then why are your figures based on a GPU around 1/5 as powerful?

Why not give a range of figures in your table so that its actually accurate?

Best case scenario, even at 65nm is 0.5mw per mhz btw, at 40/45nm (which is the process technology Nintendo will be using), they're pretty much guaranteed to hit less than 1mw/mhz.




:lol

The best info out there is right here at GAF and over at B3D and no one either here or there has tried to put any sort of definitive polys/s figure on Nintendo's chip, we're just 100% in the dark with regards to that.

So you're saying the 40M Mt/s is based on 100 MHz, while the other two documents (including one dated 2010) state 15.3 M at (a clearly stated) 200 MHz?

Could be! We'll have to wait and see