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Brandon Sanderson - The Cosmere |OT| there's always another secret...

Woorloog

Banned
Bit of an alternate universe pondering...

I've been thinking about running a Mistborn Adventure Game campaign for my friends for a long-ish time.

The problem is, i love the original setting and second era setting equally. The former has a bit more compelling setting, i think, one that better provides me with story ideas and the like. But the latter offers perhaps awesome gameplay, and magic with guns is rare-ish so it is also extremely interesting, but other than some set pieces (train-top battle, of course!), i'm not sure what kind of story i could run there.

So, i'm thinking, why not combine them?
Take the Final Empire, yet advance its technology somewhat, so that trains and guns are used, and the cities are industrialized. Full Mistborn and Feruchemists might also exist, with Mistings, Ferrings and Twinborn. And Hemalurgy, of course, offering player power in form of Hemalurgy should be interesting.

The problem here is, would the Final Empire work with industrialism and guns? Lord Ruler is strict about controlling technology, because that allows him to control people better.
I mean guns, even just crossbows would make training an army easier. There are big reasons why those weapons supplanted others. This might make the setting a bit more war-prone, and would require the Lord Ruler's forces to be better... or perhaps an increase in amount of Steel Inquisitors (though i guess they could be supplemented with lesser "Iron Inquisitors").
Economically, industrialism sounds a bit problematic, in the sense of "who the heck buys all the mass produced stuff?". Noble population would need to be larger, to allow for an existence of a middle class, i think. Though i guess i could keep guns and trains and some stuff like that even without real industrialism... can i?


Justifying this setting, from historical perspective, should be easy enough. I believe Sanderson actually mentioned somewhere that gunpowder was developed before the Final Empire but presumably it hadn't spread and was suppressed. Indeed, the old Scadrial was pretty advanced world, something remarked upon in Arcanum Unbounded.


End of random middle of night musings.
 

Strimei

Member
Finished reading Arcanum Unbound.

Some thoughts on Edgedancer:

I wasn't a huge fan of Lift at first. I thought she was ok in the side story in WoR but I was initially not big on her and the idea of her showing up more. But I feel like she did "grow" a bit over the course of the novella and I actually like her quite a bit now, even if she is a bit rough. I imagine, as others have said, that when she shows up again in the future, older, she's likely to be a bit more mature (though probably still rough around the edges). That's fine, its an amusing contrast to the old Edgedancers.

I was surprised at Nale actually giving up his whole "kill all the nascent surgebinders and prevent the Knights Radiant from reforming" plan, I figured with how unbalanced he was he'd still find some pretense, but who knows now. I sure didn't expect him to cry.

Also I freaked the hell out at Arclo. I don't recall his type being described before in any sort of detail (though maybe I missed it, large books after all) so that was a bit of a shock.

Overall I liked the book, heh.

edit: Also I guess
the Stump is a nascent Truthwatcher? I went to look at the list of which surges the other orders use and the only two that use Progression (and thus can heal) are Edgedancers and Truthwatchers, and when Lift was prodding her about maybe seeing her spren she mentioned something akin to a flash of light in a mirror, which doesn't really fit a Cultivationspren like Wyndle. Ym's spren involved light though if memory serves so that fits there.
 

studyguy

Member
Finished reading Arcanum Unbound.

Some thoughts on Edgedancer:

I wasn't a huge fan of Lift at first. I thought she was ok in the side story in WoR but I was initially not big on her and the idea of her showing up more. But I feel like she did "grow" a bit over the course of the novella and I actually like her quite a bit now, even if she is a bit rough. I imagine, as others have said, that when she shows up again in the future, older, she's likely to be a bit more mature (though probably still rough around the edges). That's fine, its an amusing contrast to the old Edgedancers.

I was surprised at Nale actually giving up his whole "kill all the nascent surgebinders and prevent the Knights Radiant from reforming" plan, I figured with how unbalanced he was he'd still find some pretense, but who knows now. I sure didn't expect him to cry.

Also I freaked the hell out at Arclo. I don't recall his type being described before in any sort of detail (though maybe I missed it, large books after all) so that was a bit of a shock.

Overall I liked the book, heh.

edit: Also I guess
the Stump is a nascent Truthwatcher? I went to look at the list of which surges the other orders use and the only two that use Progression (and thus can heal) are Edgedancers and Truthwatchers, and when Lift was prodding her about maybe seeing her spren she mentioned something akin to a flash of light in a mirror, which doesn't really fit a Cultivationspren like Wyndle. Ym's spren involved light though if memory serves so that fits there.

Definitely felt the same before Edgedancer. Lift's previous chapter was... odd to say the least but she grows on you. She's definitely a different sort of character than most anything in the Stormlight series. Feels like I'm reading some more light hearted kind of fantasy titles I used to read as a kid with her novella.
 
Read the whole State of Sanderson post. Looks like we're in for some quiet times ahead, even if that really is to be expected.

****

I wish White Sand was a normal, written book. I want to read it for Cosmere significance, but I really don't feel like reading a graphic novel, particularly since I find the art style they went with to be iffy. If Sanderson wants to farm his plot out to another capable writer to actually put together, that's perfectly fine IMO, but I want to read it.

...I probably shouldn't be complaining since I actually have access to the prose manuscript. I've read the first third and it's really good... but it needs a pass by an editor. I often need to go through sentences two or three times to figure out how they're supposed to read, which gets tiring. Totally understandable for an unpublished book, but I wish there was a published one.
 

Faiz

Member
Does Sanderson still send the original White Sand book? I emailed him ages ago and still didn't get anything.

Last I heard was that due to increased volume in fan mail it could take a long long time for one of the assistants to get to yours.

Realistically speaking, assuming it's still being sent, I imagine the volume means it's also quite easy for a request to get lost/missed.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Nice little dig at GRRM there.

I hate GRRM (well, how he he treated SOIAF). Seems like the weight of expectations was something he could not handle. The problem with waiting so long is that people expect more when something takes 10 years to make. If he churned out all 7 books in a 12 year span, people wouldn't be so upset that the later books are of a lesser quality.
 
A question I've been turning over in my mind the past few days. Spoilers for Stormlight 1 & 2, Mistborn 1-4, and Warbreaker.

In the Cosmere, gods are usually "real", which is to say that their existence has some sort of rational explanation. The Returned have particularly-powerful god-breadths. Harmony is Sazed holding the power of two shards. It is reasonable to assume that the Almighty in Stormlight is some sort of Shard as well.

How does that work out for Jasnah as an atheist. She doesn't believe in unfounded religious teachings, but does follow logic. She knows about places like Shadesmar (the cognitive realm?) and is probably fairly Cosmere-aware in general. So does she know about who The Almighty is?

I highly doubt that Jesnah's story arch will involve becoming religious because she discovers the existence of god. I find it equally unlikely that other characters will discover Jesnah's non-belief was actually correct all along. But if The Almighty is ever going to play a larger role in the story, as would seem unavoidable—how is this contradiction going to get resolved?

Worth noting that I (notably unlike Sanderson) am coming at this from the perspective of an irl athiest—to me, Gods exist only in fantasy stories, and not in the real world. It's hard to separate myself from this when writing about whether a god is "real" in a given Fantasy world.
 

kswiston

Member
I hate GRRM (well, how he he treated SOIAF). Seems like the weight of expectations was something he could not handle. The problem with waiting so long is that people expect more when something takes 10 years to make. If he churned out all 7 books in a 12 year span, people wouldn't be so upset that the later books are of a lesser quality.

Oh they still would be quite upset. There's plenty of evidence for that in series that did have regular releases. Look at Wheel of Time (Which never had gaps of even 3 years between novels when Jordan was alive)
 
Read the first two stormlight books--some of the best fantasy out there. Working on mistborn now, only on early part of book 2 atm.

Feel like the series needs to find something now.
Kelsier's absence
is super obvious right now and Vin's flaws as a character are far more apparent with his absence. Without him so far I find myself feeling a bit ambivalent.
 

Faiz

Member
Read the first two stormlight books--some of the best fantasy out there. Working on mistborn now, only on early part of book 2 atm.

Feel like the series needs to find something now.
Kelsier's absence
is super obvious right now and Vin's flaws as a character are far more apparent with his absence. Without him so far I find myself feeling a bit ambivalent.

Losing Kel was tough, for the reader and the characters both. Especially Vin. In a lot of ways, Well of Ascension, and a lot of Hero of Ages if I'm being honest, is about Vin finding who she is without that influence.
 
Losing Kel was tough, for the reader and the characters both. Especially Vin. In a lot of ways, Well of Ascension, and a lot of Hero of Ages if I'm being honest, is about Vin finding who she is without that influence.
This is true, I was very much wishing Kelsier had survived, but it sets up much better character development for Vin and Elend which is essential.
 

studyguy

Member
Losing Kel was tough, for the reader and the characters both. Especially Vin. In a lot of ways, Well of Ascension, and a lot of Hero of Ages if I'm being honest, is about Vin finding who she is without that influence.
Kel is never really replaced effectively by anyone imo, but eventually I figure most readers reconcile with the fact that Kel was never really meant to be anything more than a springboard for Vin's story as it becomes more engrossing by the end. Even so I never felt fully invested in Vin but all the same I enjoyed the journey she took.
 
A question I've been turning over in my mind the past few days. Spoilers for Stormlight 1 & 2, Mistborn 1-4, and Warbreaker.

In the Cosmere, gods are usually "real", which is to say that their existence has some sort of rational explanation. The Returned have particularly-powerful god-breadths. Harmony is Sazed holding the power of two shards. It is reasonable to assume that the Almighty in Stormlight is some sort of Shard as well.

How does that work out for Jasnah as an atheist. She doesn't believe in unfounded religious teachings, but does follow logic. She knows about places like Shadesmar (the cognitive realm?) and is probably fairly Cosmere-aware in general. So does she know about who The Almighty is?

I highly doubt that Jesnah's story arch will involve becoming religious because she discovers the existence of god. I find it equally unlikely that other characters will discover Jesnah's non-belief was actually correct all along. But if The Almighty is ever going to play a larger role in the story, as would seem unavoidable—how is this contradiction going to get resolved?

Worth noting that I (notably unlike Sanderson) am coming at this from the perspective of an irl athiest—to me, Gods exist only in fantasy stories, and not in the real world. It's hard to separate myself from this when writing about whether a god is "real" in a given Fantasy world.

Well, it's sort of like this.
Jasnah is basically a Flat Earth Atheist. The Almighty is unquestionably real (well, was) and is (was) unquestionably godlike in power. However, Vorinism, that is, the religion that worships Honor, is wrong about a ton of stuff. From the class structure, to the history, to the very simple fact that Honor was neither almighty nor did he create humanity and the world. Jasnah goes too far in dismissing the mystical elements, but she's not wrong to doubt the faith stuff. So I would say that when she gets up to speed, she could easily reconcile her current attitudes with reality by becoming less atheist, more... irreligious. God may be real, but that doesn't mean you have to worship him, and you DEFINITELY don't have to ascribe to an existing structure to do it.

As to her knowledge of the Cosmere as a whole, that's sort of a big question mark. Her powers are exceptionally well designed to make her a Worldhopper, but iirc we don't know if she's ever actually done so. She might not know about anything beyond Roshar and Shadesmar. She's not particularly shocked to see Hoid (like, not to the extent I'd expect if she thought he was just a jester), so she knows something's up with him, but it's not clear she knows what that something is.

Read the first two stormlight books--some of the best fantasy out there. Working on mistborn now, only on early part of book 2 atm.

Feel like the series needs to find something now.
Kelsier's absence
is super obvious right now and Vin's flaws as a character are far more apparent with his absence. Without him so far I find myself feeling a bit ambivalent.

Tbh, Kelsier never really gets adequately replaced, in a character dynamics sense. The cast and their interactions is easily the worst part of Mistborn, and I'd argue, Sanderson's writing as a whole. There are definitely standouts like Kelsier and Lightsong, but by and large the dude's not great at that sort of thing.
 
Well, it's sort of like this.
Jasnah is basically a Flat Earth Atheist. The Almighty is unquestionably real (well, was) and is (was) unquestionably godlike in power. However, Vorinism, that is, the religion that worships Honor, is wrong about a ton of stuff. From the class structure, to the history, to the very simple fact that Honor was neither almighty nor did he create humanity and the world. Jasnah goes too far in dismissing the mystical elements, but she's not wrong to doubt the faith stuff. So I would say that when she gets up to speed, she could easily reconcile her current attitudes with reality by becoming less atheist, more... irreligious. God may be real, but that doesn't mean you have to worship him, and you DEFINITELY don't have to ascribe to an existing structure to do it.

But isn't that the same thing as saying that Jasnah was right all along, and the religious majority was wrong? That doesn't seem to me like something Sanderson would do.

I suppose you could argue that Jasnah's original beliefs were equally misguided, but I don't see it that way, because she does believe in pieces of the Vorrin religion where she has reason to do so. She believes in the existence of the Voidbringers, for example. (I'll also continue to posit that she knows a lot about the Cosmere in general based on that epilogue to WoR, but I can see how someone else might not have the same interpretation.)

Separately, I don't consider Jasnah a Flat-Eearth Atheist at all. She was carefully written to be portrayed in a respectful way. From the article you linked:
Atheism in a clockwork universe ostensibly overseen by a completely non-interventionist divinity is one thing, but what about a world that's practically the playground of the mythic forces that created it? While some authors do this as an honest philosophical exercise, it's almost always Played for Laughs. A self-styled hardline atheist that just happens to live in a high fantasy setting brimming with both huge pantheons of gods rampaging around the landscape constantly causing all sorts of things to happen.
 
But isn't that the same thing as saying that Jasnah was right all along, and the religious majority was wrong? That doesn't seem to me like something Sanderson would do.

I suppose you could argue that Jasnah's original beliefs were equally misguided, but I don't see it that way, because she does believe in pieces of the Vorrin religion where she has reason to do so. She believes in the existence of the Voidbringers, for example. (I'll also continue to posit that she knows a lot about the Cosmere in general based on that epilogue to WoR, but I can see how someone else might not have the same interpretation.)

Separately, I don't consider Jasnah a Flat-Eearth Atheist at all. She was carefully written to be portrayed in a respectful way. From the article you linked:

Says right there that some authors do it as a serious exercise; just because the trope is usually played for laughs doesn't mean it always is.

And that's basically it; she's wrong, Vorinism is wrong. Vorins believe a bunch of stuff that isn't true, Jasnah believes a bunch of stuff that isn't true, just in the opposite direction. The stuff she sort of agrees on, she separates from Vorinism; even her belief in the Voidbringers as real, physical things is kind of a repudiation of the Church's teachings, which are that the Voidbringers no longer have any presence in the physical realm.

And strictly speaking, the interesting thing is that by making both sides wrong in different ways, Sandersan can have his cake and eat it, too. Jasnah as an atheist is wrong, and the Vorin church got a few things wrong, but still has a valid outlet for their faith.
 

X-Frame

Member
Does anyone know of any re-reads starting soon before Book 3 comes out in about a year?

I've always wanted to follow along with one but I feel most will do 1 or 2 chapters at once a week -- and to me I would likely blow through that because of the nature of these books.
 

Tenck

Member
Does anyone know of any re-reads starting soon before Book 3 comes out in about a year?

I've always wanted to follow along with one but I feel most will do 1 or 2 chapters at once a week -- and to me I would likely blow through that because of the nature of these books.

You can try the one for Way of Kings and Words of Radiance

They're both from Tor (publishers of the books).

Edit: They're both complete. So you wouldn't have to wait.
 
Started the second Mistborn era a few days ago. Page 50 now. Doesn't start as strong as the terrific first book but I'm excited to read more Mistborn. The books are such a captivating read.
 

Strimei

Member
Started the second Mistborn era a few days ago. Page 50 now. Doesn't start as strong as the terrific first book but I'm excited to read more Mistborn. The books are such a captivating read.

Hope you enjoy it. Wax & Wayne really grew on me, and I like it a lot more than the first trilogy. I think part of it is also that neither are mistborns. I like the characters having limitations and having to think inventively.
 
Hope you enjoy it. Wax & Wayne really grew on me, and I like it a lot more than the first trilogy. I think part of it is also that neither are mistborns. I like the characters having limitations and having to think inventively.

Looking forward to that too. Once
Vin was a goddess an earth and an unstoppable force
the first trilogy got significantly worse. I honestly thought each book got a little worse due to how lame
Vin's character was
.
 

Faiz

Member
Looking forward to that too. Once
Vin was a goddess an earth and an unstoppable force
the first trilogy got significantly worse. I honestly thought each book got a little worse due to how lame
Vin's character was
.

I'm not sure what is funnier the opinion or the spoiler tagging it.
 
Here's a great interview that Brandon gave while in Spain recently. Sheds a lot of great light on stuff that we've been talking about in this thread (Jasneh as an atheist, religion, etc.): Click here

I love his answer at the end about book piracy:

My experience has been that readers want to support things they like, and if they can support their favourite artists, they will. But if they are at a point in their lives where they can’t, then it’s better to let them read the stories they want, develop their life and their ideas, and let them support artists when they’re capable of it. So I am a big fan of giving away books for free.

Warbreaker is fully available on your website…

And I encourage Tor to give away The way of kings and Mistborn in the US. I don’t think people should in most cases pirate, but I’m not going to take actions to stop them. I let their own morality guide how they approach that, and I’ll just write my books and be thankful for the people who support me.
 
halfway done with Well of Ascension (book 2 mistborn)

I mean I'm enjoying it for the political intrigue but....there's a LOT of twilight in this book. And that's not good.
 

X-Frame

Member
I finished Edgedancer yesterday and really enjoyed it. It gave me the itch to start my re-read of WoK and WoR but it's still too early for me I feel.

For Nov 2017 Book 3 release I need to start at around September so everything is fresh going into 3.
 

Faiz

Member

wat? I think it's funny to call her character lame, and also funny to put a spoiler on the opinion that her character is lame?

It's light hearted tho, don't take it too seriously :p

Here's a great interview that Brandon gave while in Spain recently. Sheds a lot of great light on stuff that we've been talking about in this thread (Jasneh as an atheist, religion, etc.): Click here

(Snipped stuff about piracy)

Sanderson's so level headed on the piracy stuff. I'll have to dig into this interview later.
 

Faiz

Member
I'm just finishing up the second Mistborn trilogy and I've already read the two Stormlight Archive books, any opinions on where to go next?

Elantris, then Warbreaker, then Secret History.

Or, alternately, switch Warbreaker with Secret History.

This is based on interconnections. If you just want to read the best story independent of the rest read: The Emperor's Soul, then Warbreaker.
 
Elantris, then Warbreaker, then Secret History.

Or, alternately, switch Warbreaker with Secret History.

What is the connection between Warbreaker and Secret History? The overall Cosmere connections were obvious but I must have the link to Warbreaker.
 
Started the second Mistborn era a few days ago. Page 50 now. Doesn't start as strong as the terrific first book but I'm excited to read more Mistborn. The books are such a captivating read.

Mistborn is one of my favorite series of all time, and I read a lot so that is saying something.

The second Mistborn series is garbage. Useless garbage. I couldn't even make myself finish the most recent book.
 
I'm kind of starting to wish Sanderson would use someone other than Michael Kramer for his audiobooks.

Don't get me wrong, he's an absolutely fantastic narrator—very possibly the best I've heard—but between all of Sanderson's books, The Wheel of Time, and some other Kramer-narrated series's I happen to have listened to recently... I'm starting to get tired of his voice.
 

Faiz

Member
What is the connection between Warbreaker and Secret History? The overall Cosmere connections were obvious but I must have the link to Warbreaker.

There aren't any. I could have been wordier about it. What I really mean/should have said is:

Warbreaker has connections to what you've already read, and preferably should have been read before Words of Radiance. But also didn't want to say much for fear of being too direct about exactly where interconnections are.

I also tend to fall back on reading in order of publication (usually because of interconnections) so gave the order as printed.

Mistborn is one of my favorite series of all time, and I read a lot so that is saying something.

The second Mistborn series is garbage. Useless garbage. I couldn't even make myself finish the most recent book.

U wot mate?
 
75% done with Book 2 and I'm actually actively cringing with how much I dislike Vin at the moment.

The Well of Ascension is one of the few Sanderson books I'd say I flat-out disliked overall. (The other is Elantris.)

There is this really weird love triangle that makes no sense, and most of the book is spent trapped in Luthadel trying to stop three huge armies, which is ultimately a complete failure because they are THREE HUGE ARMIES, and also no one can even focus on the armies because Ellend can't stop screwing up.
The very last few chapters are incredible but even that can't save it. The book would have been much better as a novella.

Well of Ascension is somewhat better, but still not as good as the incredible Final Empire.
 
I found book 3 the weakest but still very good. Book 2 has the best ending of the 3 in my opinion. I thought the
revelation that the ancient texts are altered was pretty fucking good.
I did not enjoy
Vin basically turning into a Dragonball character at some point.
 
Book 2 has the best ending of the 3 in my opinion. I thought the
revelation that the ancient texts are altered was pretty fucking good.
I did not enjoy
Vin basically turning into a Dragonball character at some point.

Oh, I totally agree that the very end—and especially that revelation—was incredible, and I loved it. I just wish it didn't take so long to get there. A good ending doesn't make for a good book, particularly if the book is long.
 
Finished the Well of Ascension.

The love triangle thankfully resolved itself. Vin was becoming a horrific character because of this and the second Zane died I feel like the book immediately began healing itself.

With that said, there's some stuff I found eh. The reveal at the end, while exciting, is more or less the definition of a deus ex machina (or it's atonym rather). To have a large chunk of the book be about Kwaan's writings and trying to solve what they meant ended up just being randomly replaced with no real hints that this was the case, so it just ended up feeling cheap. I still have no idea what happened to give Elend powers, or why the evil force that was freed didn't just kill everyone in the room, but I suppose I'll find out.

Read a few chapters of The Hero of Ages. I'm enjoying badass Elend but I found myself frowning at the description of the lord ruler....moving the planet? Brandon please...
 

Kaladin

Member
Finished the Well of Ascension.

The love triangle thankfully resolved itself. Vin was becoming a horrific character because of this and the second Zane died I feel like the book immediately began healing itself.

With that said, there's some stuff I found eh. The reveal at the end, while exciting, is more or less the definition of a deus ex machina (or it's atonym rather). To have a large chunk of the book be about Kwaan's writings and trying to solve what they meant ended up just being randomly replaced with no real hints that this was the case, so it just ended up feeling cheap. I still have no idea what happened to give Elend powers, or why the evil force that was freed didn't just kill everyone in the room, but I suppose I'll find out.

Read a few chapters of The Hero of Ages. I'm enjoying badass Elend but I found myself frowning at the description of the lord ruler....moving the planet? Brandon please...

You will understand all after Hero. At least I did.
 

Faiz

Member
Finished the Well of Ascension.

The love triangle thankfully resolved itself. Vin was becoming a horrific character because of this and the second Zane died I feel like the book immediately began healing itself.

With that said, there's some stuff I found eh. The reveal at the end, while exciting, is more or less the definition of a deus ex machina (or it's atonym rather). To have a large chunk of the book be about Kwaan's writings and trying to solve what they meant ended up just being randomly replaced with no real hints that this was the case, so it just ended up feeling cheap. I still have no idea what happened to give Elend powers, or why the evil force that was freed didn't just kill everyone in the room, but I suppose I'll find out.

Read a few chapters of The Hero of Ages. I'm enjoying badass Elend but I found myself frowning at the description of the lord ruler....moving the planet? Brandon please...

Based on this feedback I'm going to suggest that perhaps Sanderson isn't a good fit for you. Which is totally fine! But I think based on the issues you have here, I have a feeling you will continue having the same complaints.
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
Never knew this OT was here.
I've finished the mistborn trilogy and am on the "Shadows of Self" entry of the follow on series.

They are fantastic. I love the leadership theory undertones mixed with the enticing mechanics of the metals and arts.
 
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