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[6.8]

So is it me or we should be pissed off Khadr is getting this? I'm baffled that any other emotion should stem out of this. And I'm ok with that.

Many governments utterly fucked up. They were elected by us, and they didn't follow the law. The government failed a citizen, stripped him of his basic rights, and needs to be accountable for it. So yeah, anger is absolutely in order.

My 2 cents.

"Let's be clear, this whole ordeal started under Liberal governments," he said, noting Canadian officials at Foreign Affairs and CSIS questioned Khadr at Guantanamo Bay in 2003 and 2004, when former prime minister Paul Martin was in power.

And it continued under conservative governments. Shut up.

 

[fin]

How did they come to the dollar amount? 10.5 million seems like an awful lot of money.

For some reason, this made me think about the Canadian hostage beheaded in the Philippines. Really wish our country stepped up and saved that guy.

 

[gabbo]

So is it me or we should be pissed off Khadr is getting this? I'm baffled that any other emotion should stem out of this. And I'm ok with that.

Many governments utterly fucked up. They were elected by us, and they didn't follow the law. The government failed a citizen, stripped him of his basic rights, and needs to be accountable for it. So yeah, anger is absolutely in order.

My 2 cents.

Is this sarcasm? I cant tell if youre angry he got the settlement or not.

 

[6.8]

Is this sarcasm? I cant tell if youre angry he got the settlement or not.

Sorry. what do you mean? I'm incredibly disappointed it got to this, but I'm ok with the settlement.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Khadr apology, payout is an insult to all the Canadian vets who fought for our right to torture imprisoned children

 

[matthewwhatever]

Sorry. what do you mean? I'm incredibly disappointed it got to this, but I'm ok with the settlement.

Your first sentence reads like you're outraged that Khadr is getting any money. The rest of your post makes it clear that's not the case, but initially you sound against it.

Calling it now: Angus is going to win this with little room between him and Singh. He's the only candidate that, based on what i've seen in the debates, has improved in my eyes. He doesn't have a chance against Trudeau in the next general election short of discovering that Justin has secretly been funding PETA, but he's a strong candidate who might be able to put enough pressure on the Trudeau government to get them to improve their current efforts in regards to indigenous affairs.

I've been saying pretty loudly for months now that I thought Singh had an inside track on the leadership thanks to a combination of factors, but now I'm a lot less confident in that prediction. He's claiming he's doing "awesome", but Mainstreet has Angus ahead based on polling with actual NDPers, and that aligns with what the first quarter fundraising numbers showed.

 

[djkimothy]

Khadr apology, payout is an insult to all the Canadian vets who fought for our right to torture imprisoned children

I had to do a double take on that title. lol

In seriousness though, people are letting their emotions take control of what amounted to be the inevitable outcome.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...hows-the-perils-of-ignoring-international-law

 

[6.8]

Your first sentence reads like you're outraged that Khadr is getting any money. The rest of your post makes it clear that's not the case, but initially you sound against it.

That's kind of the point of my post? We should be outraged that multiple governments fucked up bad enough that it's come to this.

I think outrage and anger is a perfectly reasonable emotion in regards to this news.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Khadr apology, payout is an insult to all the Canadian vets who fought for our right to torture imprisoned children

Dont know how people can even argue against this. The government fucked up big time, easy win for Khadr.

 

[matthewwhatever]

That's kind of the point of my post? We should be outraged that multiple governments fucked up bad enough that it's come to this.

I think outrage and anger is a perfectly reasonable emotion in regards to this news.

For sure, and I think most people here agree with you when you put it that way, but -- not to speak for anyone else -- I think that we're just used to people saying they're "outraged" when they feel he shouldn't have gotten anything. There isn't enough righteous anger on Khadr's behalf, rather than at Khadr himself, but you're right, it's entirely justified.

Dont know how people can even argue against this. The government fucked up big time, easy win for Khadr.

(That's from The Beaverton.)

 

[Buba Big Guns]

(That's from The Beaverton.)

yaaaaap

 

[Pancake Mix]

He doesn't deserve a cent considering what he did, but obviously successive governments made many failures in the case and the dollar figure is the justifiable result of those mistakes.

We hold 15-year olds accountable for their actions all the time too, but when the government does things they aren't supposed to, they need to be held accountable themselves and that's where the money comes in, I get it. Really unfortunate though because his family are apparently toxic radicals...but everything that went on with his case is a no-no. I get it, from a practical standpoint the integrity of Canada's system demands compensation, as torture is never okay, but.....he's a radicalized murderer and I just feel bad for the family of the soldier he killed.

 

[CazTGG]

He doesn't deserve a cent considering what he did, but obviously successive governments made many failures in the case and the dollar figure is the justifiable result of those mistakes.

We hold 15-year olds accountable for their actions all the time too, but when the government does things they aren't supposed to, they need to be held accountable and that's where the money comes in. Really unfortunate though because his family are apparently toxic radicals...but everything that went on with his case is a no-no.

You mean like the methods they used to get him to confess for a crime he may not have committed, among the overall lack of supporting evidence? From a Canadian prosecutor: http://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/07/07/opinion/what-if-omar-khadr-isnt-guilty

For almost 15 years, Canadian treatment of the Khadr case has been dominated by the presumption of guilt. Yet the evidence tells a different story.

For all the fury boiling up over news of his settlement, there's precious little insight or knowledge about the facts. As a former prosecutor, something has always troubled me about this case, and my deep unease hasn't abated with time.

Any experienced trial lawyer would be troubled to open this file. With the exception of Khadr's "confession," wrung from a traumatized and severely wounded teenager under an abusive interrogation, the evidence against him was remarkably thin.

Examined closely, it appears more consistent with his innocence than guilt.

What evidence exists appears confused, inconsistent or contradicted elsewhere. Photographs of the attack scene released in 2009 appear to directly conflict with the prosecution's summary of its own case.

Had the events happened under Canadian jurisdiction, they would not have been enough to lay a charge, let alone secure a conviction.

 

[Pancake Mix]

You mean like the methods they used to get him to confess for a crime he may not have committed, among the overall lack of supporting evidence?

Whether there's a reasonable doubt or not is an open question. There very well may be.

On a balance of probabilities though? I'd say he did it. If the news reports are true, his family are human garbage who talked the talk, and that could easily have affected him.

There's no justification for the handling of the case, the methods used were unacceptable, and that justifies the payout. But that doesn't mean he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

 

[CazTGG]

Whether there's a reasonable doubt or not is an open question. There very well may be.

On a balance of probabilities though? I'd say he did it. His family are human garbage who talked the talk, and that could easily have affected him.

It's a good thing you're not a judge or lawyer because we don't (or at least are not supposed to) consider people guilty based on hunches or internal bias.

There's no justification for the handling of the case, the methods used were unacceptable, and that justifies the payout. But that doesn't mean he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

A very good thing.

 

[gutter_trash]

terrorism lottery

the Liberals should have fought in court

 

[Pancake Mix]

It's a good thing you're not a judge or lawyer because we don't (or at least are not supposed to) consider people guilty based on hunches or internal bias.

Yes, there's not enough to convict, then there's the child soldier angle too, but does he deserve the benefit of the doubt? I'd say no. Nothing to do with conviction or the elevated standard of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt that we all feel is very important, and I already said the case was handled poorly, regardless, but it's understandable that this leaves a bad taste in many mouths.

Should people think that this payout is somehow a good thing? No, however it is the necessary result of the failure of successive governments. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing to be proud of.

 

[SRG01]

Yes, there's not enough to convict, then there's the child soldier angle too, but does he deserve the benefit of the doubt? I'd say no. Nothing to do with conviction or the elevated standard of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt that we all feel is very important, and I already said the case was handled poorly, regardless, but it's understandable that this leaves a bad taste in many mouths.

Should people think that this payout is somehow a good thing? No, however it is the necessary result of the failure of successive governments. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing to be proud of.

Your position is confused and internally inconsistent. The case itself doesn't meet any standard for prosecution. The evidence wasn't there, but the military court was willing to keep him imprisoned indefinitely -- hence the guilty plea to get him out.

By shifting the goal posts -- from reasonable doubt, to balance of probabilities, to a bad taste in your mouth -- you are trying to rationalize an troubled emotional response and personal biases.

Please read up on the case.

terrorism lottery

the Liberals should have fought in court

They would've lost. The Supreme Court already ruled that Khadr's rights were violated.

It's either Khadr wins the $20 million lawsuit, or the government settles for $10 million.

 

[gabbo]

That's kind of the point of my post? We should be outraged that multiple governments fucked up bad enough that it's come to this.

I think outrage and anger is a perfectly reasonable emotion in regards to this news.

But are you more outraged that it came to this (ie $$$) or that two successive governments let a Canadian citizen, a teenager/child soldier no less become swept under the rug as a showcase of being strong on terror?

I'm not outraged at this government for paying out as much as I am the last two for letting it come to this and for tossing a citizen's rights out the window because he admitted to crimes while being tortured in a prison from Hell, as a teenager. We as a country deserve this black eye

 

[firehawk12]

It's weird that I'm taking the position of being a staunch Constitutional and Charter defender, but I genuinely feel that this is cut and dry. There is no wiggle room, unless you believe there is a type of Canadian that deserves rights and a type of Canadian that doesn't.

And, well, we already have had a long history of that, don't we?

 

[matthewwhatever]

terrorism lottery

the Liberals should have fought in court

Thankfully, the Liberals disagree with you:

"The settlement that was announced today has to do with the wrongdoing of Canadian officials with respect to a Canadian citizen," [Ralph Goodale] said.

the legal settlement that we are announcing today deals with a civil lawsuit launched by Omar Khadr against the government of Canada on a very precise question," he said. "Long after the firefight in Afghanistan and while he was in custody, did the behaviour of Canadian government officials contribute to a violation of the human rights of a Canadian citizen?"

To answer this question, he turned to the 2010 ruling of the Supreme Court. In short, that ruling established that Khadr was tortured and his rights unjustly withheld and that the Canadian government was complicit.

Goodale thus deferred to both practicality and principle.

The government, he said, had already spent $5 million in legal expenses related to Khadr. Fighting the current suit would have incurred further costs, and Khadr was seeking $20 million in compensation. And the government, Goodale argued, had "virtually no chance of success."

Though opinion on that might not be unanimous, there are legal minds who support that contention.

"But equally important," Goodale concluded, "is the core issue repeatedly identified by the Supreme Court of Canada. In the pursuit of justice and national security, governments must respect charter rights and human rights and the rule of law."

"You may want to dismiss the rule of law and the Constitution," he said, leaning forward, "but if you do that, you are fundamentally undermining the integrity of the country."

 

[Pedrito]

Stumbled upon this old QP parody from RBO (in French/Frenglish):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsfBM6r9OGI

Still accurate.

 

[gutter_trash]

Thankfully, the Liberals disagree with you:

It's a bad idea and they will suffer at the ballot box for it in suburbia.

I am trying my best to protect them but I cannot defend them on this blunder, not on this issue.

 

[Sibylus]

terrorism lottery

the Liberals should have fought in court

Human rights and citizenship are great―unless you're a dirtbag so go fuck yourself.

Spoiler

I'm not sure how you advocate this with a straight face.

 

[CazTGG]

It's a bad idea and they will suffer at the ballot box for it in suburbia.

I am trying my best to protect them but I cannot defend them on this blunder, not on this issue.

Let's be frank: People will forget this happened about as quickly as #elbowgate. Heck, outside of one Islamophobic attack ad that we're all expecting the CPC to air come 2019, I doubt they'll use this when the obvious response is "tthe CPC spent roughly a decade and hundreds of millions in legal fees fighting to keep a child in an environment where they were physically, sexually and mentally abused with no enforcement of their rights. This is the leadership you can expect from them."

Human rights and citizenship are great―unless you're a dirtbag so go fuck yourself.

Spoiler

I'm not sure how you advocate this with a straight face.

This is the part where gutter breaks up with Justin and joins the NDP.

 

[gutter_trash]

Human rights and citizenship are great―unless you're a dirtbag so go fuck yourself.

Spoiler

I'm not sure how you advocate this with a straight face.

many citizens commit crimes in other countries and end up getting convicted abroad while the government doesn't repatriate all of them.

Omar has a real good lawyer, why doesn't that laywer go out of his way to defend Canadians accused of smuggling drugs or other crimes when caught abroad?

 

[Sibylus]

many citizens commit crimes in other countries and end up getting convicted abroad while the government doesn't repatriate all of them.

Gitmo isn't shoplifting in Honolulu. The Canadian government looked the other way on taking control of the case of an accused war criminal, and abandoned that citizen to torture and nothing remotely approaching a fair trial. It disgraces what the country stands for and aspires to do. It turns the rule of law into the rule of a helpful suggestion.

 

[Mailbox]

It's a bad idea and they will suffer at the ballot box for it in suburbia.

I am trying my best to protect them but I cannot defend them on this blunder, not on this issue.

then maybe stop calling it "terrorist lottery" like that means anything.

 

[gutter_trash]

then maybe stop calling it "terrorist lottery" like that means anything.

R.I.P. Sgt. Christopher Speer

 

[CazTGG]

R.I.P. Sgt. Christopher Speer

As it's been brought up before, the evidence that Khadr threw the grenade is contradictory at best:

Khadr says that he confessed to false things just to please his interrogators and stop the pain, and there's evidence to back that up. For instance, we know that under pressure Khadr falsely identified Maher Arar as having stayed at terrorist safe houses in Afghanistan, when Arar had never been to the country...

The only evidence that ties Khadr to the grenade is the statement of OC-1 in version (4), given to investigators almost two years after the event. But OC-1's statement that he found Khadr sitting up and leaning against brush is sharply at variance with photograph 1, in which Khadr lies completely buried under rocks and brush.

That's not a small problem for the prosecution. It's a big one.

If the photograph is an accurate depiction of the scene as the special forces team found it, OC-1's statement can't be true. It's more likely that OC-1 discovered Khadr under the rubble after he shot the other combatant, then shot him in the back as he lay there.

 

[Heshinsi]

It's a bad idea and they will suffer at the ballot box for it in suburbia.

I am trying my best to protect them but I cannot defend them on this blunder, not on this issue.

So tell me, what's the point of international laws? Take away the confession that he gave after a decade of imprisonment and torture, and you're left with nothing to actually prove he threw that grenade. So everything you say as far as him being a convicted terrorist, rides on a forced confession given to a country that has violated numerous international laws on many different occasions.

How the hell do you think we have any standing to tell other countries that they have to follow international laws as well? Why does Iran for example have to follow through with their responsibilities and commitments to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty?

If we're not going to abide by the UN Convention on the rights of children in conflict zones, and our ally refuses to abide by the Geneva Convention in regards to the use of torture, why should any country accept any international law? The whole damn thing starts falling apart when you decide which laws you think should be followed and which laws can be ignored. Or perhaps more clearly, who the law protects and who it doesn't. Would we be having this conversation if Khadr was a 15 year old Bosnian Serb raised to think the "invading" western armies in Bosnia in 1995 were his enemies, and he had been accused of throwing a grenade at UN troops?

I can 100% guarantee you the vast majority of vitriol aimed towards Khadr stems from his ethnicity and name, not what he may or may not have done. Change his ethnicity, change the battlefield, keep everything he went through the same, and you wouldn't have anywhere near what we're witnessing right now.

 

[Coriolanus]

R.I.P. Sgt. Christopher Speer

you do realize your argument is nothing more than an appeal to emotion?

many citizens commit crimes in other countries and end up getting convicted abroad while the government doesn't repatriate all of them.
Omar has a real good lawyer, why doesn't that laywer go out of his way to defend Canadians accused of smuggling drugs or other crimes when caught abroad?

and this is whataboutism.

Are you hellbent on not discussing this topic in a rational manner? If you're gonna argue, argue in good faith or not at all.

 

[matthewwhatever]

It's a bad idea and they will suffer at the ballot box for it in suburbia.

I am trying my best to protect them but I cannot defend them on this blunder, not on this issue.

I feel pretty confident in saying that they can do just fine without your brand of "protection".

you do realize your argument is nothing more than an appeal to emotion?


and this is whataboutism.

Are you hellbent on not discussing this topic in a rational manner? If you're gonna argue, argue in good faith or not at all.

I see you're new to discussing things with gutter!

 

[fin]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

 

[AuthenticM]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

There is nothing fucked up. There wasn't enough evidence to convict Khadr. So his age doesn't matter. Tried as an adult or not, the burden of proof is the same. And with current evidence, the burden of proof would not have been met.

And that's on top of his treatment at the hands of the criminals at Gitmo. Even if he was guilty of doing what he is accused of doing, that does not justify the torture he suffered.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

R.I.P. Sgt. Christopher Speer

....

Are you even trying at this point?

1) Almost no evidence of him throwing the grenade.

2) His confession came after he was tortured as a child. Watch any documentary on Gitmo, the prisoners will say anything to stop what they do to them over there.

3) Supreme court ruled that his rights were violated.

4) His treatment violated the Geneva conventions.

5) Regardless of all that...he was a child soldier abandoned by his own government.

Who cares what the voters think when this is such a slam dunk case for Khadr...they clearly have no empathy or perspective if this is what changes their vote. He would have received much more money if the government didnt settle.

 

[Kinitari]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

Let's assume the account of him throwing the grenade is accurate. Here's the scene as I understand it

Khadr had been staying at this location for a while, having been moved around by his father in the region since he was 9, and his father began radicalizing. This location was suddenly attacked by U.S. forces, where Khadr was inside, as a child more or less oblivious to the world around him. It got bombed to shit and he was severely injured - the account of the grenade throw that had him as the one throwing, has him disoriented, severely injured and blinded in one eye, covered in rubble in a building where everyone around him was killed, and soldiers storming in with guns drawn. He apparently threw a grenade in a general direction and collapsed sitting up, unmoving - he was eventually found by a soldier and shot twice in the back.

Like... What part of this is deserving of the label terrorist? How is this just not his parents, his environment and his situation failing him? By all accounts from psychologists who interviewed him, but those who knew him, as a kind child who has been taken advantage of by those around him? Like where the fuck is your compassion?

 

[gutter_trash]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

true dat, many in Canada get tried as adults when their crimes are heinous

 

[Heshinsi]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

I must have missed the part where Canada is a warzone. Where exactly are these 15 year old Canadian child soldiers, that are being forced to fight in these conflict zones in our country? The act of using/coercing/indoctrinating children to fight in conflicts, is in of itself a war crime according to international laws. So yes, Omar Khadr was victim of a war crime. Whether you think so or not, is a moot point where the UN Convention on this subject matter stands. Then you add the torture and rights violation, and it confusing why certain people would continually try to argue against established international rules. Further more, the crime he is accused of committing is one that he may not have actually done at all. Where in Canada do we rail road and torture people to confessing crimes after holding them in prison for a decade, and then try to act indifferent when it's made public what was done to them?

 

[Mailbox]

Claiming he was a victim is kinda bullshit imo. 15 year olds get treated like adults all the time on trial. This is no different. This isn't a party thing it's a system thing. Something fucked up.

Tell that to the UN.

true dat, many in Canada get tried as adults when their crimes are heinous

"tried" being the operative word here.
If he were tried in canada and the evidence was substantial for proof, then he would have been tried as an adult.
A fair trial never happened.

 

[firehawk12]

How the hell do you think we have any standing to tell other countries that they have to follow international laws as well? Why does Iran for example have to follow through with their responsibilities and commitments to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty?

If we're going to make up rules so that only certain citizens are protected by our laws, what right do we have to tell Erdogan or any dictator that indiscriminately jailing people who oppose you is wrong?

 

[Heshinsi]

If we're going to make up rules so that only certain citizens are protected by our laws, what right do we have to tell Erdogan or any dictator that indiscriminately jailing people who oppose you is wrong?

We don't. I honestly don't understand what point they're trying to make.

 

[Mr.Mike]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...from-trump-at-g20-in-hamburg/article35623480/

...

"We have a great neighbour in Canada and Justin is doing a spectacular job in Canada," Mr. Trump said as he began his remarks. "Everybody loves him and they love him for a reason. So congratulations on the job you are doing."

...

"For the Canadians, you are all so lucky to have this man as prime minister. He has brought an incredible breath of fresh air, directness, commitment to the issues," gushed World Bank President Jim Yong Kim. Indian President Narendra Modi praised Mr. Trudeau's interventions during a discussion on terrorism saying, "I'd also like to express my happiness in your interventions in the sessions we just had. The wavelength was the same, yours and mine."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel also offered some praise, telling other leaders during one session to consult Mr. Trudeau if they needed help figuring out how to use their headsets and microphones. "Just ask Justin, Justin can show you," Ms. Merkel told the leaders.

Justin doing family tech support

 

[SRG01]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...from-trump-at-g20-in-hamburg/article35623480/

Justin doing family tech support

Haha, I bet Merkel was trolling Trudeau with that line

 

[mlclmtckr]

It's crazy to me that gutter's callous intentional idiocy can stand up to so much opposition. He's plowing ahead with sub-Sun-level talking points and we're all still talking to him like he can be reasoned with.

 

[CazTGG]

It's crazy to me that gutter's callous intentional idiocy can stand up to so much opposition. He's plowing ahead with sub-Sun-level talking points and we're all still talking to him like he can be reasoned with.

Someone has to prevent him from joining the dark side.

 

[gutter_trash]

Someone has to prevent him from joining the dark side.

Don't worry, I'm not going to vote Conservative.

But I can't stop suburbanites from turning especially on national security issues.

 

[Kinitari]

Don't worry, I'm not going to vote Conservative.

But I can't stop suburbanites from turning especially on national security issues.

I mean, we're not dealing with conservative suburbanites in this thread responding to well reasoned arguments with pictures of soldiers funerals. Might as well just try to drown us out with the Canadian anthem

 

[mlclmtckr]

Don't worry, I'm not going to vote Conservative.

But I can't stop suburbanites from turning especially on national security issues.

This is the definition of concern trolling though. Argue from an honest place instead of "what will the hypothetical suburbanites say!?!?!"

 

[Silent Chief]

I don't see why I should feel sorry for one soldier killed in action and not others.
What's the latest body count of US soldiers in Afghanistan? 2356?
And that doesn't include friendly fire. Total count goes to 3486.

How much did the US gave the families of Canadians killed by friendly fire?
I mean, they're spending trillions, a few millions wouldn't move the needle.
Ah, but they must maintain the veil of complete US immunity no matter where on the planet.

So, no. It's not hard not to feel sorry.