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[DoubleTap]

C'mon now! It is not like I'm the one that coined the term 'tard pack. The system you describe cannot do HD (no HD cable), cannot do BC (no hdd), cannot store more than a tiny few XBLA games (64mb card), has a wired controller, runs like crap in many games because it cannot do caching on a hdd, and cannot do voice chat (no headset).

This is the first I've heard of this "problem". I've never had any noticeable issues as far as games running like crap on my 'tard 360. Care to give some examples? I might get the 120G sooner if that's the case.

 

[spwolf]

if it costs $8 in June, it is probably around $50 savings from start of production in October 2006 until June 2007 price drop for diodes...

Keep in mind that is $50 from $840 Total. Factor in $15 for emotion engine, $10 for new Cell, what else?

Unless iSuppli was completly wrong, I really dont see how they can cut those costs by $300 so they can afford $100 price drop. Cell is not that expensive, Sony pays a lot for high quality cage, power supply, cooling, etc.

 

[spwolf]

This is the first I've heard of this "problem". I've never had any noticeable issues as far as games running like crap on my 'tard 360. Care to give some examples? I might get the 120G sooner if that's the case.

while he is way overreacting, problem is that core doesnt have HDD, so devs are not doing caching like that on 360 games, which is in fact pretty big problem for them.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

while he is way overreacting, problem is that core doesnt have HDD, so devs are not doing caching like that on 360 games, which is in fact pretty big problem for them.

Is caching only when you download a chunk of the game to your drive like RR7? If not, Oblivion was coded to do exactly that if you had a premium. I'm pretty sure there are games that cache to the drive if you have one and don't if you don't.

 

[Kinan]

Diamond has an indirect band gap, but it surprisingly emits photons quite easily! The carrier concentration problems were solved at around the turn of the century too.

There were a few Japanese groups a while back that made quite a few of these guys emit blue-UV, but they were like monster blocks of stuff.


PS. WHAT. AlN as a UV emitter? I must see papers of this!! One of my friends works with AlN as well, so...

Well, most of the research of UV LEDs currently lies a bit too high in wavelength for both AlN (bandgap is 200nm, btw) and diamond (around 230 if you dont look at exitons ). The reason for it is that anything below ~300nm is too much absorbed by proteins and will give you a cancer and whatnot. So most of the research is about 320-400nm region, which at max may age your skin a bit. And for that region they try (and quite successfully) to use AlGaN-based heterostructures, grown on anything. One of the promising substrates is AlN: http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/ser...00084000006001002000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
(just a quick link, I'm sure you can find a more recent one if you try a bit )

But its quite likely that your mate knows about it already, so I would just ask him.

 

[theBishop]

if it costs $8 in June, it is probably around $50 savings from start of production in October 2006 until June 2007 price drop for diodes...

Keep in mind that is $50 from $840 Total. Factor in $15 for emotion engine, $10 for new Cell, what else?

Unless iSuppli was completly wrong, I really dont see how they can cut those costs by $300 so they can afford $100 price drop. Cell is not that expensive, Sony pays a lot for high quality cage, power supply, cooling, etc.

you're probably right in some respects. but moving to 65nm not only brings component costs down, it also reduces the performance requirements of the power supply and cooling system.

so there is an opportunity to reduce costs quite bit by the end of the year.

 

[speculawyer]

This is the first I've heard of this "problem". I've never had any noticeable issues as far as games running like crap on my 'tard 360. Care to give some examples? I might get the 120G sooner if that's the case.

"Runs like crap" was overly harsh language. But some games do use the hdd to cache, there shoule be some some improved performance.

Considering that the vast majority of 360s are sold with a hdd, I would guess this practice will continue . . . especially in games with big worlds (i.e. GTA 4). Games will be designed to run w/o a hdd, but they will run better if there is a hdd.

 

[First Children]

Then, 399$ by year end is pretty much confirmed, it'd be foolish to buy a ps3 now, wait for the price drop!

Spoiler

doing my part as a Ninty shareholder

 

[PistolGrip]

so what you are really saying is that I was right back in December?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135069

How long before PS3 manufacturing cost matches 360's
Toshiba has recently announce that they are going full steam ahead with CELL products in your living room (sony already has 4 products in the works):
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128312/article.html

Blue Diodes are being consumed like mad and HDMI seems like no biggie to be included in an HDTV nowadays (used to be only the expensive models).

These are arguably the most expensive parts of the PS3 and with all this mass production of them happening, was this Sony's plan all along? Will the tech cost of making these machines reach that of it's nearest competitor sooner than we think?

I predict PS3 core will eliminate the manufacturing cost difference between the 360 in 2 years.

What do you guys think?

[please note I say Manufacturing cost. Actual price depends on business model which cannot be predicted]

For those who are confuse by the comment:

Mass production is the production of large amounts of standardised products on production lines. It was popularised by Henry Ford in the early 20th Century, notably in his Ford Model T. Mass production is notable because it permits very high rates of production per person and therefore provides very inexpensive products.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production

 

[SRG01]

Well, most of the research of UV LEDs currently lies a bit too high in wavelength for both AlN (bandgap is 200nm, btw) and diamond (around 230 if you dont look at exitons ). The reason for it is that anything below ~300nm is too much absorbed by proteins and will give you a cancer and whatnot. So most of the research is about 320-400nm region, which at max may age your skin a bit. And for that region they try (and quite successfully) to use AlGaN-based heterostructures, grown on anything. One of the promising substrates is AlN: http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/ser...00084000006001002000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
(just a quick link, I'm sure you can find a more recent one if you try a bit )

But its quite likely that your mate knows about it already, so I would just ask him.

:lol Let's just say my friend works with AlN but not in light emission. I'm not sure if I can divulge what he does!

 

[yukoner]

Unless iSuppli was completly wrong.

Well iSupply was completely wrong for one thing. It certainly does not cost Sony $840 to manufacture the PS3.

 

[DSWii60]

In any case £425 = $850 so at least in the UK Sony must have made some money off the PS3.

Pricedrop before the end of the year 90% certain IMO to £350 / $500

 

[speculawyer]

so what you are really saying is that I was right back in December?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135069

The manufacturing costs of the PS3 will certainly drop . . . but what makes you think that the xbox 360 is immune to the same benefits?

No matter how much Sony improves their manufacturing efficiencies, the xbox 360 should always be even lost cost. However, the cost differential will drop and that should benefit Sony.

 

[theBishop]

can someone post ISuppli's breakdown of how much the PS3 costed. It'd be interesting to exactly see how much could be chopped off with removal of EE, cheaper diode, 65nm etc.

In any case £425 = $850 so at least in the UK Sony must have made some money off the PS3.

Pricedrop before the end of the year 90% certain IMO to £350 / $500

Its already been posted.

 

[CAPCOWNED]

The manufacturing costs of the PS3 will certainly drop . . . but what makes you think that the xbox 360 is immune to the same benefits?

No matter how much Sony improves their manufacturing efficiencies, the xbox 360 should always be even lost cost. However, the cost differential will drop and that should benefit Sony.

Once the price is right the demand for PS3 will greatly overshadow whatever price advantage 360 might have at the time.

 

[DoubleTap]

"Runs like crap" was overly harsh language. But some games do use the hdd to cache, there shoule be some some improved performance.

Considering that the vast majority of 360s are sold with a hdd, I would guess this practice will continue . . . especially in games with big worlds (i.e. GTA 4). Games will be designed to run w/o a hdd, but they will run better if there is a hdd.

Thanks for that article. I think I can hold off for a bit then. Don't want to derail the thread any further.

 

[Core407]

The manufacturing costs of the PS3 will certainly drop . . . but what makes you think that the xbox 360 is immune to the same benefits?

No matter how much Sony improves their manufacturing efficiencies, the xbox 360 should always be even lost cost. However, the cost differential will drop and that should benefit Sony.

I don't even think MS has announced plans for a .45nm chip after the .65nm move. Seems like Sony will benefit more in future price reductions in productions for the simple fact that they put in a lot of moderately new technology into the system that still goes for a hefty amount.

 

[theBishop]

The manufacturing costs of the PS3 will certainly drop . . . but what makes you think that the xbox 360 is immune to the same benefits?

No matter how much Sony improves their manufacturing efficiencies, the xbox 360 should always be even lost cost. However, the cost differential will drop and that should benefit Sony.

Well, you're right, but there are also plateaus in the process of price dropping. For instance, hard drives, optical drives, power supplies, chassis, don't usually drop below a certain level. It doesn't make much difference at this point because both models still have a way to go. But the price difference isn't always going to be $200 just because it started out that way.

And at this point, Sony needs to drop the price no matter what Microsoft does because $600 is just beyond the threshold for a lot of people even if they would never buy an Xbox360.

 

[B-Ri]

The manufacturing costs of the PS3 will certainly drop . . . but what makes you think that the xbox 360 is immune to the same benefits?

No matter how much Sony improves their manufacturing efficiencies, the xbox 360 should always be even lost cost. However, the cost differential will drop and that should benefit Sony.

its microsoft. They just effectively raised the price of the system with the new Elite SKU, with features they had always shot down that were not needed.

I own a 360 (bought it a month and a half ago). I thought people were kidding when they said that power brick was MASSIVE. It honest to god feels like a jet engine is on when i play games on the damn thing. It gives me Disc Read Errors sparatically on new, unscratched, clean games. Hell, it even took a good 2 gashes to my Gears of War disc. It has its own great games, but i loook at my ps3 and its built solid. Its a launch PS3, i almost NEVER hear the thing, except when it can get at times into its overdrive mode with the fans, which is still nowhere near as loud as the 360 is even from the second you boot the thing up.

reguardless of anything. My 360 feels cheap, and my ps3 feels solid.

 

[Jaurenlo]

I dont believe we will see a price cut soon. They will more than likely wait until they break even with the cost of this monster.

Once they do, then we will be able to see the gradual price cuts. by and by

 

[Mau ®]

Interesting.

I always thought a pricecut would be in time for HOME's launch. The media will be all over it.

 

[vertopci]

A price cut this early would rule...then I could buy a PS3 :lol

 

[scissorfight]

more importantly, how long until BR burners are affordable?

 

[damisa]

Once the price is right the demand for PS3 will greatly overshadow whatever price advantage 360 might have at the time.

The original xbox outsold the ps2 when it momentarily had a $30 price advantage. That was back when the PS2 was dominating also.

 

[pswii60]

more importantly, how long until BR burners are affordable?

Within a year. Seriously.

I spent £300 for a DVD burner back in .. 2001? A year later they were £80!

 

[Tyrannical]

I don't even think MS has announced plans for a .45nm chip after the .65nm move. Seems like Sony will benefit more in future price reductions in productions for the simple fact that they put in a lot of moderately new technology into the system that still goes for a hefty amount.

Both MS and Sony were predicted to move to 65nm and then 45nm two years ago. They'll probably both scale to those sizes around the same time.
MS is not in a huge hurry to move to 65nm now as it seems that they have improved the quality (and yeild) of their current chips as shown by the new board design for the elite.
If you remember the rumors floating around Sony, they were "supposed" to go right to 65nm due to the PS3 delay.

It doesn't matter what Sony "invests" as long as their are companies like IBM which will be happy to help MS redesign and manufacture chips at both 65nm and 45nm when it becomes cost effective.
Actually, does Sony even have the technology and foundries to manufacture these types of chips?

 

[garrickk]

Actually, does Sony even have the technology and foundries to manufacture these types of chips?

Sony actually does a lot of fab research. About a year ago, Sony was the first company to announce a fully functional SRAM cell at 45nm. SRAM chips are usually the first devices to be built on new technology. They are simple, repetitive, but require a lot of transistors to operate. I hate picking out SRAM components for my designs (embedded FPGA systems), but that's another issue.

Of course, the Japanese fab system is very convoluted and integrated. In the EE Times article I'm referring to, Sony was listed as the designer. However, whenever you read about a fab being built by a Japanese company, there are usually several other "competing" companies also investing in the fab. I swear, all of the big companies own large pieces of what each other are doing at the fab level - for semiconductors, LCDs, etc.

Edit: It must have been a few SRAM bit blocks that Sony claimed to be the first to produce at 45nm - and it was either this past summer or a year ago. Anyway, Intel claims the first fully functional 45nm SRAM chip this past November (so they probably had a prototype cell while Sony was claiming to be first). NEC, Toshiba, and Sony are partnering on a new 45nm fab and it may already be operational:
http://www.us.design-reuse.com/news/news14862.html

In any case, Sony does indeed do a lot of fab research and production.

 

[dalyr95]

Well the PS3 southbridge has already moved to 65nm and IBM are making CELLs that are 65nm, the knowledge will surely be shared between the CELL group and RSX is already a known factor, so I'd say the PS3 will be 65nm soon.
MS on the other hand...

 

[DrXym]

Of course, the Japanese fab system is very convoluted and integrated. In the EE Times article I'm referring to, Sony was listed as the designer. However, whenever you read about a fab being built by a Japanese company, there are usually several other "competing" companies also investing in the fab. I swear, all of the big companies own large pieces of what each other are doing at the fab level - for semiconductors, LCDs, etc.

It's pretty perverse isn't it? Toshiba is one of the partners making CELL chips that are going into the console that is killing its own HD-DVD format.

 

[Tyrannical]

Well the PS3 southbridge has already moved to 65nm and IBM are making CELLs that are 65nm, the knowledge will surely be shared between the CELL group and RSX is already a known factor, so I'd say the PS3 will be 65nm soon.
MS on the other hand...

You got a link for the southbridge moved to 65nm?

I found this link on 65nm Cell production by IBM
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070313-ibm-starts-65nm-cell-production.html

BUT what IBM is doing doesn't have anything to do directly with the PS3, they are working on it for their high end servers. The smaller size will allow them to bump the Cell up to 6Ghz. Obviously Sony isn't going to bump up the clock speed of the PS3, so this might not actually be a cost reduction strategy yet.

Sony and MS might be happy with the 90nm still if they are getting a high yeild percentage now.

MS on the other hand... just pays IBM to do the reduction and manufacturing for them. Just like they paid IBM to design the 90nm chip for them.