• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Easy Allies |EZOT2| Love & Respect

Status
Not open for further replies.
Great episode of EZ anime

Huber's energy is always a great addition to a podcast. Also ben made the right call in how to tackle the series by capping it to what they've seen so far. Keeps it more focused, doesn't gloss over possible smaller arcs and moments and it leaves the door open for possible follow up episodes
 

Budi

Member
The conversation about Fortnite really went in a different direction to what I was expecting. This is Epic Games, not some indie developer. The corporate defence force was a little strong for me.

Developers have been vilified for far less greedy practices.
I mean the friends of the person who sent the question seem to have a healthy attitude about it "nah, we wait for the f2p launch". Also the person who sent the question seems to be happy with their purchase, besides the fact that they can't get their friends to play for the reason mentioned above. So what is there to defend. I admit that I don't know all the details since this is the first time I looked the game up, so please let me know. But seems that they are quite transparent about it. If there are blind packs/chests/boxes to incentivize gambling habbits without the option to buy what you want directly, then I'll join in to bash Epic Games for this. Pay to win and real money gambling is something I don't accept as a business models. This wasn't mentioned to be the case in the discussion atleast. But the founders pack pricing isn't exploitative. Most early access games require a payment to play in my experience. Player Unknown's Battleground seems to be soaring and it's 30 dollars to get to play it in Early Access. Also a tip of my hat to PUBG for allowing the players to sell, buy and trade items through Steam marketplace.

Edit: Seems like there's something called "loot pinata pack", I don't like the sound of that.
 

Karu

Member
Struggled a bit through the newest Frame Trap, although I loved the Splatoon discussion, because Blood and Ben were giving the game the love and respect it rightfully deserves. Especially the Hottake felt like one of those slightly cliched topics that hosts all across vg sites repackage and ask again in a three month cycle - but that might as well fall on me as listening to podcasts for years on a weekly basis basically doesn't leave much breathing room for something fresh and new. Still, the discussion itself was also rather wishi-washi so I didn't get much out of it.

Will be away from home for the next two weeks come Tuesday, so I am already looking forward to the 50 hour massive archive of their beach weekend... *sigh* :D
 

Servbot24

Banned
Responding to the Frame Trap Hottake:

I think if you look at game stories from a wide perspective (taking other media forms into account), game stories are for the most part clearly very poor. No game is near the heights of Shakespeare, or any classic authors. (To be fair, neither is most literature)

On the other hand there are plenty of games that have much better stories than Marvel movies.

I think it depends on context of the consumer. When you walk into a Marvel movie you don't expect great story. You expect muscly guys in tights to punch each other. They usually do punch each other, and then you leave the movie feeling excited. There's generally some faux-emotional moment, but they tend to be extremely shallow and transparent, and that's not why people are in attendance. People would still go to GotG2 even if Starlord didn't have have a daddy issue.

When you start a new game, you generally are expecting the story to be good enough that you don't 'walk out of the theater'. That's basically the standard - if the story doesn't make you angry, then it's serviceable. If the story actually compels you in some way or enhances the gameplay, it's considered to be a remarkable achievement. Since this is what consumers expect, I have no problem with reviewers giving good scores to games that will meet consumer expectations.

When you read a book however, a compelling story is the baseline. The bland stories usually found in games would be completely unacceptable. The story is basically all there is - there is no gameplay or special effects to act as a crutch or as the main attraction.

There is a ton of room for critiquing games as an art form rather than as a consumer product. To me, a game is at its best when story and gameplay are married and they both elevate each other, becoming greater than they otherwise would be on their own. Examples:

The Last of Us. On it's own, the story is only okayish. It's comic booky, though the ending reaches for a higher level. The gameplay on its own is serviceable TPS with survival elements. But when you put those together in a way that they are both building off of each other, it elevates and becomes remarkable.

Metroid Prime. The story is fairly shallow, there's not really any meaning being conveyed. It's just a couple plot points that happen. Pirates blast planet, wake up Metroid. Samus blasts Pirates. Samus blasts Metroid. The end. Yet I would argue this story is excellent, because story is more than plot. The actual story is provided by the world design which feeds directly into the plot and pumps it full of the meaning that is otherwise lacking. Metroid Prime has prongs other than story and gameplay - the environment is really the star of the show, but they all intertwine and elevate each other into a masterfully complete piece of art.

Persona 4. If this were an anime rather than a game, I think it would be okay, but not particularly special. It certainly wouldn't rank with Cowboy Bebop or Your Name or anything like that. Likewise the gameplay isn't that interesting, it's fairly standard JRPG mechanics, though the Personas are a nice hook. Put them together though, and it becomes an amazing experience I may never forget.

(Note: "Putting them together" is extremely difficult. You can't just take a good story, and make the characters have good gameplay. Marrying the two takes a ton of skill.)

On the other hand, there are other games that are masterpieces due 100% to the gameplay. Mega Man X. Mario Bros 3. Tetris. There is no reason to add story to these games. If anything, a Shakespearen level story could potentially detract from these games and make them worse.

Similarly, look at non-video games like chess or basketball. Those have unbelievably good gameplay, with no story. No one wants those to have story - adding story to them would be utterly absurd. (You could argue off-court player drama in the NBA adds story, but that's beside the point)

Then we have video games which have very little gameplay and almost pure focus on story. Life is Strange, Telltale games, etc. Back to these in a second.

This is the part where I probably throw some people off. I've never played a good story-based game. I think we do need to be tougher on those games, because they are not achieving what the earlier games I mentioned are - either pure excellence in a specific area, or a balance of elements in which each element enhances the others to make an elevated experience. They bank everything on telling a great story, and in my experience haven't delivered (although I still like them).

Let's take Life is Strange. I enjoyed this game. I was compelled to continue due to the story. That makes it good right? I don't think so. I think that makes it baseline. Just like when we read a book, the baseline we expect is that we're compelled to continue. That should be considered average and not particularly remarkable. A great book would enrich my life, give me new perspectives, or form a truly deep and unique connection with the world or characters. Life is Strange doesn't do any of that. I like some of the characters, but that's simply because they use relatable tropes (not necessarily a bad thing, tropes can be useful). I wanted to find out what happened next, simply because it used some plot hooks. That's something I would consider to be the baseline standard for any book to do.

By default, game stories are more like comic books than classic literature, because you get to see images of what's happening rather than having to imagine it. I think that's the reason we give it some leeway. Without visuals, Life is Strange would be a young adult novel that we never would even consider picking up. Without visuals, Marvel stories would be an utter joke.

Is that bad? Should we give these games credit simply for having visuals? I think that's the heart of the question. Do we give some video games credit simply for being video games? The answer to that is undoubtedly yes, but whether you're comfortable with that and how you would take that into account if you're a reviewer is completely up to you. I would expect there should be different avenues of critique - does this game succeed as a consumer product vs does this game succeed as a work of art. Life is Strange attempts to tell a story - it definitely succeeds as an enjoyable product, and is mediocre as a piece of 'literature'. Games which attempt to purely provide great gameplay and nothing else are different, because generally the gameplay is the art form as well as the consumer appeal. That's why Tetris is almost universally considered to be perfect.
 

Budi

Member
Nice post, enjoyed reading it. Few things though that aren't ment to discredit what you said. But people do tell stories about sports and chessplayers with movies and books. And I'm surprised that you have never played a game with good story. There's plenty of games that deal with another subjects than just beating the villains, even those where the focus is beating the villains can add sidestories and other more meaningful themes to chew on. And to me games should be reviewed based on how they achieve what they were set to do. Rather than if they meet personal expectations. So we don't get reviews like 2/10 from IGN to Football manager because it doesn't play like Fifa and PES. This example has nothing to do with story though, but we shouldn't expect all games to tell elaborate and meaningful stories if that's not what they want to do. And we also shouldn't call gameplay bad just because it's minimal (dialogue choices are gameplay), if that is the game they wanted to do. Ofcourse personal preferences and all if someone likes or dislikes games without stories or vice versa, play what you want to play. This is simply ment for reviews.
 

Philippo

Member
EZAnime:
It's a shame they only got so far in the anime, they still have to reach the really good arcs, the really good fights. Realy, Ippo vs
Sendo Title match
is going to make Huber explode. But it's totally understandable, i know. And the discussion was still pretty good, they already grasped what make Ippo so good. I really, really hope all of them continue it, and eventually make a 2nd episode when they finish the 1st season at least.
 

ArjanN

Member
Struggled a bit through the newest Frame Trap, although I loved the Splatoon discussion, because Blood and Ben were giving the game the love and respect it rightfully deserves. Especially the Hottake felt like one of those slightly cliched topics that hosts all across vg sites repackage and ask again in a three month cycle - but that might as well fall on me as listening to podcasts for years on a weekly basis basically doesn't leave much breathing room for something fresh and new. Still, the discussion itself was also rather wishi-washi so I didn't get much out of it.

Will be away from home for the next two weeks come Tuesday, so I am already looking forward to the 50 hour massive archive of their beach weekend... *sigh* :D

I wasn't quite at the end of this Frame Trap yet, but do they not discuss EVO at all? Because I kind of feel you could easily fill a 3 hour frametrap with that alone.
 

ST2K

Member
I wasn't quite at the end of this Frame Trap yet, but do they not discuss EVO at all? Because I kind of feel you could easily fill a 3 hour frametrap with that alone.

That would be a poor move, I think. Not everyone cares about esports.
 
I don't think there's really that much to say about EVO beyond "boy that was cool, huh"

Especially if no one went this year, at least going you can kind of give a rundown of your experience.
 

LycanXIII

Member
I mean the friends of the person who sent the question seem to have a healthy attitude about it "nah, we wait for the f2p launch". Also the person who sent the question seems to be happy with their purchase, besides the fact that they can't get their friends to play for the reason mentioned above. So what is there to defend. I admit that I don't know all the details since this is the first time I looked the game up, so please let me know. But seems that they are quite transparent about it. If there are blind packs/chests/boxes to incentivize gambling habbits without the option to buy what you want directly, then I'll join in to bash Epic Games for this. Pay to win and real money gambling is something I don't accept as a business models. This wasn't mentioned to be the case in the discussion atleast. But the founders pack pricing isn't exploitative. Most early access games require a payment to play in my experience. Player Unknown's Battleground seems to be soaring and it's 30 dollars to get to play it in Early Access. Also a tip of my hat to PUBG for allowing the players to sell, buy and trade items through Steam marketplace.

Edit: Seems like there's something called "loot pinata pack", I don't like the sound of that.

The Loot Llamas cost "v-bucks" to get. You can easily get 2-3 pinatas a day from just doing the dailies and the challenges, no need to spend real money.
 

Mista Koo

Member
That was a good Fiasconauts. I give them points for staying coherent throughout the whole thing. Huber is the MVP.
"Do you like rocks?"

Not sure how many allies are Blazblue fans, but they're gonna get blasted for ranking Jubei so low. He was in the story since the first game 9 years ago and they've been waiting for him since then. He's one of the eight heroes in the story or something and the last one to be playable. They've designed 10s of characters that became playable before him.
If you ask me Geese and Jubei are at the most significant and MvC and Abigail are at the least.

Not the pods, it's not grabbed anyone. Ian and Ben went in on an Easy Update though.
I think they just didn't give it a shot, the way Jones talks about it it seems like he hasn't even watched it played. I can totally see Jones and Huber enjoying it.

Oh fuck I'm so excited this is my playset !!!! Thank youuuu you beautiful boys!

For anyone who wants to submit a playset you can email Ian
Is his email public? You got me excited to try and write one. Yours was good with at least one great choice per roll.

One question though: how do you balance die rolls? Do you just assign them without much thought or do you try to tie similar things to the same roll?
 

Deimo5

Member
Announcements are for the EZA podcast and were covered there

Frame Trap is for hands on and general non-news discussion
They didnt cover announcements like blazblue cross tag battle on the podcast did they? They played blazblue on stream before but dont know much about it or the crossover franchises besides persona. Havent listened to frame trap if its on there.
 

Hasney

Member
Yeah, but I feel that in this case that clearly didn't work out very well, since Ben is the one that's into fighting games.

Ben was on holiday and there was more than enough content to fill Frame Trap anyway, so glad they didn't re-tread. Didn't see Ben mention Evo anywhere anyway, so not sure he even watched it?

I think the announcements were covered pretty well on the podcast.
 

mcw

Member
Some thoughts on this week's Hottake...

Kyle recently said something like this on a podcast, something to the effect of, "There's no way I could ever enjoy a video game's story more than a movie or a TV show". That's a frustrating thing to hear. For me, as someone who has been playing games for over thirty years, as someone who's seen video games in every form they've been presented to date, comments like that are a reflection on how bad a job we as creators are doing in utilizing this medium of video games for storytelling.

It's certainly not a problem with the medium itself.

To avoid potential spoilers, I'll use a hypothetical example. In this game, you start out in a town, then adventure out into the world. Later, a bomb is dropped on the town and you must return to look for survivors.

In a movie, you can only see from the perspective of the camera. You see what the director chooses to show you. The hero arrives in town, and there's a slow pan over all the dead bodies in town. Someone in the hero's party says, "I don't think anyone survived".

Games sometimes do this, too. You'll get to the town, and there will be a long cutscene with a slow pan over all the dead bodies in town. Someone in your party says, "I don't think anyone survived". It's a less interesting version of the movie; of course it's going to be inferior.

Some other games mash up interactivity and storytelling in a ham-fisted way. You'll arrive in town, and you can walk around, but your party members will constantly comment on how horrible it is that no one survived. There might be a golden circle on the map where you're expected to go, with party members constantly suggesting that you should walk over there. When you do, this triggers a cutscene. This, to me, is actually the worst narrative thing you can do in a game, because it takes you out of the story in order to annoy you and remind you that, despite your seeming freedom, someone other than you is in control of your path through the game.

From a narrative perspective, games are at their best when they aren't trying to be movies. You arrive in town and you walk around. No one has told you that there are no survivors; this is something you will discover yourself as you wander around the town, your hope slowly ebbing away a little more with each new body that you discover. In some games, you're given the tools to react-- you can walk slowly instead of running, you can use emotes, etc-- but the real power of games that is evident here is that you encountered the story through your own actions; it wasn't simply presented to you.

There is a place for storytelling in games. There is a place for storytelling in movies. They are different places, and the big failure of games as a narrative medium right now is from those creators who don't understand this. Many modern game creators are folks who wanted to make movies but couldn't compete in that overcrowded space, so they decided to make video games that were basically movies with some elements of interactivity. I'm not going to say there isn't a place for that sort of thing in the industry, but I don't think it should be the primary way that stories are told in games.
 

Budi

Member
Some thoughts on this week's Hottake...

Kyle recently said something like this on a podcast, something to the effect of, "There's no way I could ever enjoy a video game's story more than a movie or a TV show". That's a frustrating thing to hear.
Nice read! but to this point I want to add that Kyle has also said something like "stories make the greatest games stand out and memorable". This is paraphrasing since I don't quite remember when and where he said it so can't look it up now. Maybe someone else remembers.

And to rest of your post. I personally can enjoy many different approaches. The more emergent stories through gameplay like the stories you create while playing Civilization and XCOM for example but also the linear style of Uncharted or Max Payne. And ofcourse there's also games that let me affect the narrative in different ways either through dialogue or other choices like Witcher 3 and Telltale games. To me it's not that significant how the story is actually told if it resonates with me. And having a variety of different approaches is the best I can hope for, trying to limit game storytelling into just one mold would do games as a medium disservice. Warren Spector (creator of Deus Ex) has argued that emergent narrative lacks the emotional impact of linear storytelling. And I agree to some extent.

And personally I'm not a fan of these "read a book or watch a movie" people at all. I do those things, doesn't stop me from enjoying video game narratives too. There's some really good stuff and there's no point for me to start ranking them which tells the best stories. But movies and books definitely have more stories that don't involve constant shooting or other types of combat. Which is why it's always disheartening to see people mock and dismiss "walking simulator" types. I grew up playing adventure games from Sierra and Lucas Arts alongside all the platformers, strategy, shooters and other more action oriented games. So narrative focused games will always be important to me even if I don't get to play the Taxi Driver as a game.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
Huh, Kyle brought up something similar in his last Boz v Woz. I rolled it off as an, honestly, ignorant comment speaking outside himself. I've played a number of titles that have moved me more than acclaimed film, shows or music pieces (he brings up music in the stream).

The blanket statement that any medium is inherently better than another medium has always come off as childish and Kyle, of course, was no exception.

That said, I'll agree with his introductory statement that raised the topic, (Paraphrasing) "Saying video games are the best medium ever not something I agree with." I can see eye-to-eye with that, but on the basis that no medium could cover such a charge, not that conventional video games are a lacking one.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
I'm glad EZA did a review on Pyre. I haven't looked at it since the initial trailer and had little idea what it was at all. It seems promising and the presentation is superficially reminding me of The Banner Saga series. I may check it out.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Nice post, enjoyed reading it. Few things though that aren't ment to discredit what you said. But people do tell stories about sports and chessplayers with movies and books. And I'm surprised that you have never played a game with good story. There's plenty of games that deal with another subjects than just beating the villains, even those where the focus is beating the villains can add sidestories and other more meaningful themes to chew on. And to me games should be reviewed based on how they achieve what they were set to do. Rather than if they meet personal expectations. So we don't get reviews like 2/10 from IGN to Football manager because it doesn't play like Fifa and PES. This example has nothing to do with story though, but we shouldn't expect all games to tell elaborate and meaningful stories if that's not what they want to do. And we also shouldn't call gameplay bad just because it's minimal (dialogue choices are gameplay), if that is the game they wanted to do. Ofcourse personal preferences and all if someone likes or dislikes games without stories or vice versa, play what you want to play. This is simply ment for reviews.


I've played games with good story, but they're never those pure story types of games. Journey, Majora's Mask, Shadow of the Colossus examples - they have gameplay elements that influence how I feel and how I take everything in, which enhances the story. However games that tend to put story first and foremost and make it more important than gameplay, rarely live up to the focus that they have chosen on a grander scale. If a game sets out to deliver a story without additional elements, my perception of the game becomes honed in on the story and I may compare it to other times when I have been completely focused on stories - reading books. That's why I mention there should be multiple avenues for review.

I don't expect any professional outlet to critique the next Telltale game in the context of classical literature. They would likely lose their following if they did that. Fans simply expect another Telltale game, not Hemmingway. However confirming to fans they will get what they expect means that they will continue to get what they expect over and over. There won't be any progress unless the developer feels like taking an artistic risk. That's why I think it's important to have discussions about how games can reach higher levels, and if any professional reviewer evaluated games from that perspective I would personally find that to be a valuable contribution to the spectrum of feedback.

I do think we will get there even if reviewers don't take the more strict stance, because as games become more easy to create, there will be more people from more backgrounds making more games and taking more risks. Gaming will definitely grow.

Actually... you know what game has awesome story and puts it front and center? Mega Man Legends 2. Hope Kyle does a playthrough of that.


Side convo... To clarify the stories in chess / basketball, the stories exist outside the game, or they exist purely in the meta. Kyrie Irving leaving LeBron James is a storyline, but that's not part of the game of basketball, that happens off the court. Maybe a meta-storyline in a basketball game is that Steph Curry makes 5 3s in a row, or something like that. Maybe a meta-storyline in your game of Tetris is that you escaped a really bad situation. But I think those are clearly different than the stories found in games. A cutscene doesn't interrupt a game of Tetris (there's a rocket at the end I guess, but you get my point). In an RPG on the other hand, the characters exist because of the story, and the story constantly influences your objectives. No one would say that the story of Final Fantasy VII is that one time I was running out of potions and barely got the final hit. That's a meta-storyline inside the gameplay, while what we generally think of as the actual story is the progressive development and plot surrounding of Cloud and Sephiroth. Btw I love to see those merged - that tends to happen with environmental storytelling, as seen in Metroid Prime or Breath of the Wild.
 

Bahorel

Member
That was a good Fiasconauts. I give them points for staying coherent throughout the whole thing. Huber is the MVP.
"Do you like rocks?"

Not sure how many allies are Blazblue fans, but they're gonna get blasted for ranking Jubei so low. He was in the story since the first game 9 years ago and they've been waiting for him since then. He's one of the eight heroes in the story or something and the last one to be playable. They've designed 10s of characters that became playable before him.
If you ask me Geese and Jubei are at the most significant and MvC and Abigail are at the least.


I think they just didn't give it a shot, the way Jones talks about it it seems like he hasn't even watched it played. I can totally see Jones and Huber enjoying it.


Is his email public? You got me excited to try and write one. Yours was good with at least one great choice per roll.

One question though: how do you balance die rolls? Do you just assign them without much thought or do you try to tie similar things to the same roll?

I think it's okay to say you can find it right here: http://www.ianhinck.com/ and click on "who"

As to dice rolls I found myself accidentally saving my more irreverent thoughts for roll 6 , so I had to mix that up upon editing. I tried to spread out my options based on humor, making sure that like ones that were a little more zany were on different numbers than the number before it. I did not try to match them by subject matter tho.

I found writing a fiasco a bit more challenging than I initially realized because every option needs 36 possibilities and I found it required a lot of thought to think of something unique as opposed to filler material. But I based it on my favorite place in the world (New York's natural history museum) so I relied on my knowledge of the place itself to come up with more things. If for any reason you wanna see my PDF it's here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7TCkGtsr4HqR1pZblNTTWVWZEE/view?usp=sharing

Also the flat earth option was a very very late addition to the playset and I'm so glad I threw it in at the last second because they made it so magical
 

ShadyK54

Member
Ben was on holiday and there was more than enough content to fill Frame Trap anyway, so glad they didn't re-tread. Didn't see Ben mention Evo anywhere anyway, so not sure he even watched it?

I think the announcements were covered pretty well on the podcast.

Only mention of EVO I heard from Ben was during Gundam. He said he watched a bit while on vacation, & gave his thoughts on the finals he watched.
 
I caught Frame Trap last night but was too tired to write out a post about it.

It's a little funny how Blood just played A Criminal Past, as I played it earlier this month too. I agree with a lot of what was said, including how it should let you settle into the environment before moving towards the objective. But I think my biggest problem with it, and one that's shared by Mankind Divided itself, is that I just don't care about hunting down terrorists in a world where the Illuminati and all this other crazy stuff exist. It's all feels like filler.

On another note, Ben asked for people to mention if they've had any issues with Nintendo handhelds. Well, the bottom screen on my original DS is basically dead. If I boot it up from a cold start, it'll work properly for about 5 minutes but will then quickly descend into an illegible mess. I ended up buying a cheap replacement DS on ebay just in case I wanted to play something that wouldn't work on my 3DS (like a GBA game or something).

Additionally, when I was a kid, my little brother's Gameboy Colour was dropped and the speakers stopped working properly afterwards. And on a much more minor note, the bottom of my New 3DS doesn't fit correctly, so it'll sometimes squeak when I'm using it. Not a big deal but kinda annoying.

I can't comment on the Hottake segment because TBH, I zoned out during it. I might need to rewatch it at some point.

Some thoughts on this week's Hottake...

Kyle recently said something like this on a podcast, something to the effect of, "There's no way I could ever enjoy a video game's story more than a movie or a TV show". That's a frustrating thing to hear.

It's worth remembering that that's coming from the weirdo who refuses to read books.
 

farisr

Member
Kyle recently said something like this on a podcast, something to the effect of, "There's no way I could ever enjoy a video game's story more than a movie or a TV show". That's a frustrating thing to hear.
It's worth remembering that that's coming from the weirdo who refuses to read books.
Yup, also the dude that turned off the music in Nier Automata, and stopped playing Persona 5 because the main character was too cool. He is an expert of nothing and his opinions are sometimes partially wrong.
 

mcw

Member
Yup, also the dude that turned off the music in Nier Automata, and stopped playing Persona 5 because the main character was too cool. He is an expert of nothing and his opinions are sometimes partially wrong.

Well, to be fair, when I said that his comment was frustrating, I didn't mean to imply that I felt he was wrong for saying it. My frustration comes from knowing that to compare game storytelling to movies is natural. Games are encouraging it by constantly aping movies. If game developers adopted more diverse approaches to storytelling that made better use of the medium, we'd see far fewer such comparisons.
 

farisr

Member
Well, to be fair, when I said that his comment was frustrating, I didn't mean to imply that I felt he was wrong for saying it. My frustration comes from knowing that to compare game storytelling to movies is natural. Games are encouraging it by constantly aping movies. If game developers adopted more diverse approaches to storytelling that made better use of the medium, we'd see far fewer such comparisons.
btw, in case you didn't get it, that little bit on his opinion being partially wrong sometimes was a disclaimer he himself put up before his Final Bosman episodes. I've come to accept Kyle having vastly far from normal opinions and hang-ups, it's actually one of the most endearing things about him for me. So yeah, when he says stuff like that, I take it in stride and don't really get frustrated at anything he says. The reason why you're frustrated is understandable as well, as it's not really what he's saying but the comparison that's been drawn that's seemingly frustrating you. But to me honestly, even with games aping the style of movies, I think certain games have told stories better than a big portion of movies & tv shows have. While yes, I would still agree that the best movies & TV shows are not matched by the best games storytelling wise, the best games still do a much better job than a lot of movies & tv shows so that statement as an absolute is not true for me.
 
Some thoughts on this week's Hottake...

Kyle recently said something like this on a podcast, something to the effect of, "There's no way I could ever enjoy a video game's story more than a movie or a TV show". That's a frustrating thing to hear. For me, as someone who has been playing games for over thirty years, as someone who's seen video games in every form they've been presented to date, comments like that are a reflection on how bad a job we as creators are doing in utilizing this medium of video games for storytelling.

It's certainly not a problem with the medium itself.
I kind of think it is.

Storytelling is a craft that has always exploited linearity. The story starts and the story ends, and there's a clear path from A -> B. Games that can happily follow this pattern -- your JPRGs, point and click adventures, VNs -- are able to take advantage of this learned knowledge of how to tell a good story. But the more we get into "gameplay", the more linearity is at odds with player agency. That's how we get "ludo-narrative dissonance" and all these almost philosophical points of contention as to whether gameplay or story is important. They're at odds with each other, at least insofar as how stories have been retold for all of human history. You can do some fun non-linear stuff, but when you go that route you're left with your own story, not someone else's. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's swimming upstream: it's really difficult to create a compelling story. How many people are going to get the same quasi-life-experience out of Breath of the Wild as they get from the Shawshank Redemption? This is new ground.

There's another story problem inherent to the medium, IMO, which is the importance of gameplay. It's an essential component, right? Which means that given finite resources, some time or money that could be spent nailing down plot details or character motivations or lore ... is instead spent on making the game work. It's inherently more work to make a good game with a good story than it is to make a book with one, because the "prose" step involves figuring out intelligible gameplay mechanics.

Which leads me to industry problems: money. Big budget videogames are like movie blockbusters. They aren't trying to be art, they're trying to make money. They're marvel movies. Sometimes they're artistic as well, but it's tangential to the goal. Smaller budget videogames might try to be art more whole-heartedly, but have to deal with the resource constraints alluded to in the paragraph above.

And there's other stuff. Games have a reputation (thanks to the above, probably) for second rate stories, and that tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gamers have certain expectations on how game stories are structured, and may god have mercy on your soul if you subvert these expectations too far. Game starts slow? How dare you...


tl;dr: I don't look to games for story either. I think they can get better in a Souls/BOTW "lore discovery" sense, but probably not in the traditional, linear sense. And the latter is at odds with most things people want to do from the medium. The former is promising, because stories are about sharing experiences, and living an experience is an incredibly potent way to have it shared. But the medium is young.
 

BunkerStar

Neo Member
It's worth remembering that that's coming from the weirdo who refuses to read books.

In the last Bosman Vs. Wozniak I read in the YouTube comment section that Kyle talked about not thinking video games are the best medium, does anybody have a timestamp for this? I don't want to watch the whole thing just to catch that comment. It'd be interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter considering he seems to think about video games somewhat deeply.

Also, has Kyle given a reason for not reading books at all? I'm surprised that a guy who seems as intelligent and thoughtful as Kyle is, he does not like reading at all.
 

Wiggy

Member
Also, has Kyle given a reason for not reading books at all? I'm surprised that a guy who seems as intelligent and thoughtful as Kyle is, he does not like reading at all.

He doesn't like reading description, like 'crunchy leaves' or something I think was his example. He said this on a frame trap not sure which one.
 

Lexad

Member
Kingdom Hearts is a series that in some ways transcends movies/literature at least for me, which is ironic because of the steaming mess it can be. Part of it is because it lifts so heavily from the Disney animated films, but I get to be an avatar interacting with them.

That series has had an impact on me that matches levels some have with Star Wars or Indiana Jones. I know it is a mess but something about it puts it on another tier for me in forms of media.
 
He doesn't like reading description, like 'crunchy leaves' or something I think was his example. He said this on a frame trap not sure which one.
Haha sometimes I think Kyle just sets out to troll us. Reminds me of turning off the Nier music cause it was too intense.

Just listened to Frame Trap this week and hope we hear a bit more about Sundered from the allies, would be interested to see if it picks up after the first couple of hours. Was interested but the procedural generation makes me nervous. Got Jotun for free on GOG a couple weeks back for a Sundered promotion and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Beautiful game with a lot of little details from Norse mythology. Just finished Brokkrs forge and found Lokis statue there which had golden stitches across his lips as Brokkr sewed his lips shut after he won a bet. Lot of love packed into the game.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Can anyone explain the appeal of nonlinear storytelling? Seems like a bad idea to me. A story is a composition, and if a composition has a branching path, the author has to have two separate messages. And if they have two separate messages, why not just make two separate stories?
 

Auctopus

Member
Can anyone explain the appeal of nonlinear storytelling? Seems like a bad idea to me. A story is a composition, and if a composition has a branching path, the author has to have two separate messages. And if they have two separate messages, why not just make two separate stories?

Well, by the sounds of it, you have a different understanding/need of what you want out of a story, fundamentally.

I.e. I don't need the author to have a "message" to tell a good story. Not every story needs to be a fable.

I think one of the biggest problems games/developers have with 'non-linear' storytelling is player agency within an open-world.
 

mcw

Member
Can anyone explain the appeal of nonlinear storytelling? Seems like a bad idea to me. A story is a composition, and if a composition has a branching path, the author has to have two separate messages. And if they have two separate messages, why not just make two separate stories?

Games like The Witcher do indeed have many different stories in them, stories which seem disconnected until you think of them as events in the story of your character. This is, to me, an expression of how storytelling in games can offer something different: The story is less reliant on a plot to drive it forward, and more reliant on your choices.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
Can anyone explain the appeal of nonlinear storytelling? Seems like a bad idea to me. A story is a composition, and if a composition has a branching path, the author has to have two separate messages. And if they have two separate messages, why not just make two separate stories?

Well done nonlinear storytelling is like jazz in that case.
 

Lexad

Member
Breath of the Wild's non-linear storytelling put it automatically at around 5 on my favorite Zelda's list. Also the cookie cutter dungeons and bosses that all look the same. Great puzzles but no distinctive features.
 

Budi

Member
To Ben, you were hoping for more humour in the latest Frame Trap. In case you haven't already, get Grim Fandango. Or basically anything from the Lucas Arts adventure days. I feel that Grim Fandango is the peak though, it's truly one of the greats. It will give you all the witty writing you want and then some. Or hit me up with a PM and I'll gift you my extra key for Day of the Tentacle from Humble Bundle.
 
Can anyone explain the appeal of nonlinear storytelling? Seems like a bad idea to me. A story is a composition, and if a composition has a branching path, the author has to have two separate messages. And if they have two separate messages, why not just make two separate stories?
I think it works well for telling stories with most of their events in the past -- think detective novels.

For stories in the present, I think it's tough to do effectively, and that most attempts validate the difficulty (e.g. most fail)
 

abrack08

Member
Personally it just bums me out a bit when people act like a non-linear story is the "correct" way to tell a story in a game. Most of my favorite games have movie-like linear stories, I don't want those to go away because some people think they aren't properly utilizing player agency or whatever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom