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[SuicideUZI]

I would love to have xbmc as my main dashboard on my PS3, then I wouldn't have to spend money on an htpc. That an emulator support as good or better than it was on the original xbox is all I want.

 

[UntoldDreams]

Some of these posts are quite delusional. Perhaps fueled by fanboy glee or simply the desire to laugh at rich powerful companies to make yourselves feel better? Either way waste of time.

Companies do not operate under the presumption that "Heh... We are great we don't have to randomize our encryption. I'll leave it this way on purpose because I don't care."

Bullshit logic at best (again fueled by fanboyism or desire to laugh at misfortune of others?). It was a mistake and Sony will have to make do.

If I am in charge. I hire an engineer. I tell him to do a good job.
The Engineer is, relatively slave wage worker compared to me. He has marching orders.

** Does anyone here think... even for an instant that this engineer would get on some stupid high horse and say "I can not bother doing a proper engineering job because I work for Sony?".

You are delusional if you believe that this was done as anything other than a human error mistake and mismanagement. No reasonable person would allow this type of error.

It comes down to the fact that corporations hire and fire people over and over. Eventually you get under-qualified people doing jobs they should not and stuff like this happens.

===
Also PS3 will survive this just fine. It will cost Sony money to work around it but it will continue just fine.

 

[MarkMclovin]

so this will help homebrew or piracy? im guessing piracy (which im for btw)

WUT?

So is this new exploit for any PS3 now, or still for phat PS3's that have already been fucked with?

I've kept my phat aside to get some CFW on there, been waiting for an easier way to do it rather than having to mess with my Android phone.

 

[darkwing]

WUT?

So is this new exploit for any PS3 now, or still for phat PS3's that have already been fucked with?

I've kept my phat aside to get some CFW on there, been waiting for an easier way to do it rather than having to mess with my Android phone.

its for any PS3, basically people can make any 'app' that would run on all PS3s

 

[wsippel]

WUT?

So is this new exploit for any PS3 now, or still for phat PS3's that have already been fucked with?

I've kept my phat aside to get some CFW on there, been waiting for an easier way to do it rather than having to mess with my Android phone.

All models, all firmware versions.

 

[kitch9]

wouldn't work, how would you patch games on the PS3s that never go online?

I'm happy with that.....

I just don't want cheating 12 year old twats on PSN calling me a whatever new expletive they've just learned.

Most people will still buy games if PSN access is stopped too.

 

[Dambrosi]

All models, all firmware versions.

And, apparently, nothing Sony can do about it short of MAKING THEIR ENTIRE GAMES LIBRARY UNPLAYABLE.

Looking forward to XMBC myself.

 

[Callibretto]

well, the number one "legit" reason for wanting to have ISO loader is probably to install the game on hdd for faster loading etc. so maybe Sony can make hdd install an official feature, so those hackers don't feel the need to make ISO loader that can be used for piracy.

sucks though that Sony are at these hackers mercy and have to bow down to them hoping they won't compromise their business even further. why can't they just keep whatever they're doing to themselves. it's not like these guys will stay on PS3 homebrew scene. didn't they already said they'll be leaving since the 'fun' is over.

man, I can already see the picture how LBP and Killzone will got delayed in attempt to give them more time to fix these. people will complaint about the delay, then ISO leaks come out from reviewers copy and people use that as excuse to pirate the game because Sony is retarded for trying to protect their games. then when the game finally comes out more people will mock them because their new protection will be bypassed in a matter of days, then come NPD the sales bombed, more people will use that sales number to say it's Sony's own fault for delaying their games.

sigh. same thing will probably happen with Last Guardian too. maybe even worse since that game is not exactly the most popular franchise commercially. people will probably pirate that game even more because there will be hype from the enthusiast press. people will be curious about it , but not enough to buy it. I'm seeing ICO number all over again for Last Guardian.

 

[intheinbetween]

well the demonstration starts in 50 mins, and it's gonna be a short one, around 4 minutes afaik, can't wait to see how the magic works

 

[darkwing]

well, the number one "legit" reason for wanting to have ISO loader is probably to install the game on hdd for faster loading etc. so maybe Sony can make hdd install an official feature, so those hackers don't feel the need to make ISO loader that can be used for piracy.

sucks though that Sony are at these hackers mercy and have to bow down to them hoping they won't compromise their business even further. why can't they just keep whatever they're doing to themselves. it's not like these guys will stay on PS3 homebrew scene. didn't they already said they'll be leaving since the 'fun' is over.

man, I can already see the picture how LBP and Killzone will got delayed in attempt to give them more time to fix these. people will complaint about the delay, then ISO leaks come out from reviewers copy and people use that as excuse to pirate the game because Sony is retarded for trying to protect their games. then when the game finally comes out more people will mock them because their new protection will be bypassed in a matter of days, then come NPD the sales bombed, more people will use that sales number to say it's Sony's own fault for delaying their games.

sigh. same thing will probably happen with Last Guardian too. maybe even worse since that game is not exactly the most popular franchise commercially. people will probably pirate that game even more because there will be hype from the enthusiast press. people will be curious about it , but not enough to buy it. I'm seeing ICO number all over again for Last Guardian.

they can't delay the games because there is no way to fix this, they can't even ban people/console on the PSN

 

[besiktas1]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

 

[lowrider007]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

Man if that's true that's the end of Playstation for me and I'm a massive fan.

 

[darkwing]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

if Sony doesn't want the 'apps' to run, then yes

 

[spons]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

They could blacklist stuff en let you redownload PSN games on the PS4.

 

[N.A]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

This is where a whitelist would be effective.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

They could blacklist stuff en let you redownload PSN games on the PS4.

using what system? mail in your games and they'll send you a download key?

1.) not everyone will want to do that.

2.) not every publisher will want to make their game distributable on PSN.

3.) think of the massive amounts of bandwidth that would require. some PS3 games are over 40GB in size.

it seems untenable.

 

[endlessflood]

Didn't they specifically say during their presentation that they can't sign games (in response to the audience question about Blu-ray payloads) since they haven't been able to exploit apploader yet? They said it's probably possible eventually but they didn't make it sound like a foregone conclusion. Is it one?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This is where a whitelist would be effective.

what happens when the call/response system being shoe-horned in gets compromised?

when people make their homebrew look like a copy of Ninja Gaiden Sigma to Sony's whitelist system?

again, it seems really difficult. and things are always more difficult to do when you're trying to make something work retroactively.

 

[Brashnir]

using what system? mail in your games and they'll send you a download key?

1.) not everyone will want to do that.

2.) not every publisher will want to make their game distributable on PSN.

3.) think of the massive amounts of bandwidth that would require. some PS3 games are over 40GB in size.

it seems untenable.

I think he was only referring to already-downloadable PSN games. I don't think he was suggesting that they'd make the entire PS3 library downloadable.

 

[darkwing]

using what system? mail in your games and they'll send you a download key?

1.) not everyone will want to do that.

2.) not every publisher will want to make their game distributable on PSN.

3.) think of the massive amounts of bandwidth that would require. some PS3 games are over 40GB in size.

it seems untenable.

exactly, looks like Sony has to start all over again with the PS4 and treat the PS3 as a learning experience

 

[aaaaa0]

Didn't they specifically say during their presentation that they can't sign games (in response to the audience question about Blu-ray payloads) since they haven't been able to exploit apploader yet? They said it's probably possible eventually but they didn't make it sound like a foregone conclusion. Is it one?

It seems to me that if you can break the chain of trust, as they have, then you can just replace apploader with a hacked apploader that ignores any signature checks.

 

[UntoldDreams]

There are valid techniques Sony can use to mitigate this situation its NOT the end of the world for PS3.

They absolutely can make a new encryption key for all new software going forward. They simply can't time travel backwards and fix the old key.

PSN can be just as protected safe as Apple, Amazon, Google, Ebay and all other PC Websites so that is simply not an issue.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think he was only referring to already-downloadable PSN games. I don't think he was suggesting that they'd make the entire PS3 library downloadable.

maybe but it doesn't read like that at all.

 

[Brashnir]

maybe but it doesn't read like that at all.

He did specifically say "PSN" games.

 

[N.A]

what happens when the call/response system being shoe-horned in gets compromised?

when people make their homebrew look like a copy of Ninja Gaiden Sigma to Sony's whitelist system?

again, it seems really difficult. and things are always more difficult to do when you're trying to make something work retroactively.

They can hask check the executable, as long as the PS4 security isn't compromised this will be fine. The reason this wouldn't work on PS3 (at least for more than a few weeks) is there would be various methods to bypass the checks.

 

[darkwing]

what happens when the call/response system being shoe-horned in gets compromised?

when people make their homebrew look like a copy of Ninja Gaiden Sigma to Sony's whitelist system?

again, it seems really difficult. and things are always more difficult to do when you're trying to make something work retroactively.

yup, this is why trophies and player/gamer level becomes useless, who is to say your trophies from that game is legitimately acquired or from an app that just generates trophies, sync to PSN, and presto you are level 15 or something

 

[UntoldDreams]

exactly, looks like Sony has to start all over again with the PS4 and treat the PS3 as a learning experience

No absolutely wrong. If your desktop PC has a hacked version of windows you are free to do whatever you want. The moment you download an official MS security update they can simply update your machine with draconian DRM and you are locked down all over again.

Sony still controls their servers. As such they have just as much power as the PC world to keep things locked down in the same format.

What all this means is that the PS3 is now closer to a PC than a Console... Meaning you have more freedom to do what you want with it but anything server side (or NEW blu-ray disc) can have new draconian DRM measures installed.

 

[darkwing]

There are valid techniques Sony can use to mitigate this situation its NOT the end of the world for PS3.

They absolutely can make a new encryption key for all new software going forward. They simply can't time travel backwards and fix the old key.

PSN can be just as protected safe as Apple, Amazon, Google, Ebay and all other PC Websites so that is simply not an issue.

and condemn old games? don't think Sony can afford that , face it, the PS3 is an open system now and no way to close it

 

[Foffy]

Ugh it's probably been stated but doesn't this mean that the ps4 will have to block all BC including PSN.

This is a massive clusterfuck...

Man, is this exploit that bad for the PS3? I thought the BC removal comments were jokes. I watched the videos and everything but I didn't think it was incredibly bad, outside of them having Sony's private keys and still have no access to Nintendo's. Shows how quickly the security wall Sony had for years blew down.

 

[N.A]

Didn't they specifically say during their presentation that they can't sign games (in response to the audience question about Blu-ray payloads) since they haven't been able to exploit apploader yet? They said it's probably possible eventually but they didn't make it sound like a foregone conclusion. Is it one?

It's not really an issue. Both because the games are already signed (unmodified games will work once a method is found to boot them) and they can modify the firmware to ignore signatures (modified games will work)

 

[wii_HD]

Perhaps Sony will/should make PS4 a - onlive - type service.

Or...... use military grade encryption for a retail machine.

 

[Karma]

Actually, JTAG has been around a long time, it's just that Microsoft fixed the problem with a hardware and software revision. so that's what sony needs to do quickly as well.

You mean the one where you have to disassemble your 360 and solder the motherboard? Yeah, totally the same thing.

 

[UntoldDreams]

and condemn old games? don't think Sony can afford that , face it, the PS3 is an open system now and no way to close it

What you are saying is not accurate though.
You are saying because OLD GAMES are unlocked that the PS3 is now open.

I am saying all new games going forward could have a new encryption installed.
What is the problem here? That the old games are jailbroken? Sure that's some loss of investment but all new games can be safe.

So again, what is the issue you are describing? You are making a conceptual leap and saying because Half-Life 1 was hacked that all future half life games are hacked.

This is inaccurate.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Sorry you guys are speaking in a lot of lingo, let me get this right, you can now hack any PS3 with any usb and its undetectable?

 

[intheinbetween]

Sorry you guys are speaking in a lot of lingo, let me get this right, you can now hack any PS3 with any usb and its undetectable?

it seems there's no need of usb dongles anymore

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I am saying all new games going forward could have a new encryption installed.
What is the problem here? That the old games are jailbroken? Sure that's some loss of investment but all new games can be safe.

so this new encryption would prevent games from going online? but not necessarily keep them from being played offline, since Sony can't control the end-user's space?

it seems there's no need of usb dongles anymore

unless you want to downgrade, I guess?

 

[darkwing]

What you are saying is not accurate though.
You are saying because OLD GAMES are unlocked that the PS3 is now open.

I am saying all new games going forward could have a new encryption installed.
What is the problem here? That the old games are jailbroken? Sure that's some loss of investment but all new games can be safe.

So again, what is the issue you are describing? You are making a conceptual leap and saying because Half-Life 1 was hacked that all future half life games are hacked.

This is inaccurate.

no i mean in order to have a new encryption, Sony has to make new keys, so it would not make the old games unusable because they are using the old keys? they can't just change keys that easily through an update

 

[besiktas1]

I think he was only referring to already-downloadable PSN games. I don't think he was suggesting that they'd make the entire PS3 library downloadable.

Yeah pretty much this, for some reason we (including me) expect this gen of arcade/psn games to be BC with the next gen. Which is a reasonable expectation.

Even though we didn't get BC with all of xbox retail and none for ps2 retail with the slim because the games are "just there" no disc I personally have programmed my brain to be like "it's easy to play, it's just on different harddrives and already on the net for me to download, so it HAS to transfer over". Now it doesn't look like this is going to be the case. That to me is a clusterfuck. Granted if this exploit didn't happen and Sony decided not to make psn games BC I'd be pissed at them but that would be their choice. Now they can blame this exploit, whether it's the truth or not. Again, that to me is the clusterfuck

If I want to be devils advocate/apologist I'd be like come on, till now how many times have I played a BC game on my 360, but in truth I know that's not the point. It should be an option. I know for the XBLA in particular (I've bought nearly 100 xbla games, PSN around 50) I want the option to play them off my xbox4/ps4....

 

[N.A]

What you are saying is not accurate though.
You are saying because OLD GAMES are unlocked that the PS3 is now open.

I am saying all new games going forward could have a new encryption installed.
What is the problem here? That the old games are jailbroken? Sure that's some loss of investment but all new games can be safe.

So again, what is the issue you are describing? You are making a conceptual leap and saying because Half-Life 1 was hacked that all future half life games are hacked.

This is inaccurate.

Isn't it a problem that whatever firmware updates Sony brings must be able to be decrypted by previous firmwares? They stated in the presentation they can decrypt pretty much everything now.

 

[Vinci]

Seriously, you invest millions in research and development and you mistake a random number for a constant ?

They don't have idiots working in these divisions, which means that this can't be a mistake. I can't fathom anyone with an engineering degree mistaking a random number for a constant.

In my view, they probably found out about this too late and didn't care as they figured that no one would find the exploit anyway.

As a non-programmer / hardware guru, this is one of the most understandable posts explaining the nature of this mistake - and yeah, the bold is a pretty monumental error. I mean, I don't know jack-shit about how these security measures work, but if that is the basis for unlocking the system and turning all other efforts to shit, it's unreal that it slipped through testing of some kind.

Also a bit surprising it took so long to be exploited.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

For PS4, couldn't they just have it allow PS3 signed code (homebrew too) and all PS4 signed code would be completely different. That way they could have PSN BC.

Not sure if that's a viable solution, though.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Isn't it a problem that whatever firmware updates Sony brings must be able to be decrypted by previous firmwares? They stated in the presentation they can decrypt pretty much everything now.

I haven't watched the presentation, but that would have been my logical conclusion here.

with the kind of access they have to the system (full and total), there have to be ways to monitor and decrypt things from here on out, new key or not.

I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

[MarkMclovin]

face it, the PS3 is an open system now and no way to close it

I don't know why this worries me, but it does. Are we likely to see multiplayer games full of cheaters now?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

For PS4, couldn't they just have it allow PS3 signed code (homebrew too) and all PS4 signed code would be completely different. That way they could have PSN BC.

Not sure if that's a viable solution, though.

my concern would be that allowing PS3 software to run on the PS4--given the state its all-important keys--could give a way into that system as well. seems like playing with fire unless a really solid way to sandbox PS3 software can be created.

it seems there's no need of usb dongles anymore

yes, this is probable for a period of time. not sure about permanently.

 

[UntoldDreams]

no i mean in order to have a new encryption, Sony has to make new keys, so it would not make the old games unusable because they are using the old keys? they can't just change keys that easily through an update

Yes they can. The PS3 is a computer and it can easily handle multiple keys.

Ultimately, as you stated the PS3 system is now OPEN like a PC.

I am agreeing with you on that and I'm just telling you that the PC world has a lot of techniques to deal with DRM which Sony has NOT had to use yet. However, I think they are going to be adopting these techniques VERY quickly. They don't have much choice right?

Look your computer right now has the public keys from Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, etc etc etc all over the planet in the browser as we speak. The browser was designed to handle this.

If Amazon's private keys were unlocked you could see everyone's Amazon credit card right? That does not compromise Apple or Microsoft their stuff is still locked down. Sony in essence will spin off a new Encryption system akin to having a second DRM "entity".

The point is Sony will incur extra work, extra cost, extra everything because they will have to keep LEGACY stuff running on the old keys so things don't break... But they can absolutely create a new system and simply force everyone who connects ONLINE or uses a new BLU-RAY disc to update.

 

[Chuck Norris]

it seems there's no need of usb dongles anymore

I'm more curious about it being undetectable???

I'm worried about online multiplayer if that is the case

 

[test_account]

Obviously, they did this so that you don't have to hack your PS3 open with a freaking $100+ USB dongle to get your Linux back. I would've thought that was obvious, but eh.

You are right that the dongles were like $100 before, but that is quite some time ago. Today dongles are much cheaper now because of all the clones. I have seen PS3 jailbreak dongles as cheap as $20, so i dont think that the price of this is really a big issue anymore. You can also use devices like iPod and iPhone (not all versions though) etc. to jailbreak your PS3 as well. I thought that these things were obvious, but eh ;P (sorry, i just had to say it hehe ).

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

For those worrying about PS4 having PS3 BC, we don't even know how it would work (if it does indeed support BC)

If the hardware was separate (like how the PS3 had seperate PS2 hardware inside the machine) then having BC would not compromise PS4 security in any way)

If it ran in a seperate "PS3" mode like how the Wii does GCN BC then it might only be limited to what the PS3 could do anyway, meaning that PS4 games would not be able to run in PS3 mode anyway (due to a lack of RAM or processor speed etc).

Far too early to think about such consequences just yet.

 

[darkwing]

Yes they can. The PS3 is a computer and it can easily handle multiple keys.

Ultimately, as you stated the PS3 system is now OPEN like a PC.

I am agreeing with you on that and I'm just telling you that the PC world has a lot of techniques to deal with DRM which Sony has NOT had to use yet. However, I think they are going to be adopting these techniques VERY quickly. They don't have much choice right?

Look your computer right now has the public keys from Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, etc etc etc all over the planet in the browser as we speak. The browser was designed to handle this.

If Amazon's private keys were unlocked you could see everyone's Amazon credit card right? That does not compromise Apple or Microsoft their stuff is still locked down. Sony in essence will spin off a new Encryption system akin to having a second DRM "entity".

The point is Sony will incur extra work, extra cost, extra everything because they will have to keep LEGACY stuff running on the old keys so things don't break... But they can absolutely create a new system and simply force everyone who connects ONLINE or uses a new BLU-RAY disc to update.

yeah i get what you mean, looks like Sony has to bite the bullet on this one and allow the old key to run also and for online games they could just patch the game to run the new keys

 

[hteng]

I don't know why this worries me, but it does. Are we likely to see multiplayer games full of cheaters now?

there were already cheaters even before the system was open, i don't get bother by it, just jump to another game room. In the end of the day, it's just a game. you can always play local games or private games.