Support NeoGAF

[Mailenstein]

It's always possible to include cd-keys. This wont be used for offline gaming, but it is needed for online gaming. Some PS3 games already have this (mostly to battle used game sales), like Medal of Honor, so it is possible. I dont think that this will be the first solution that is chosen, but if everything else fails, cd-keys is a solution at least.

As far as piracy goes, yes. I'm sure there will be people which will buy the game for the key only, but play an modified iso. It's gonna be ugly and that's the part I really dislike about this situation.

 

[pixelbox]

Alright, big questions from me to those who could answer them:

1.So basically this allows the one's that have access to the hack the ablility execute any program?
2.If that's so then where would the programs come from? I thought the Cell was hard to program for.
3.Do they have access to the GPU?
4.What could be done about this? I'm aware that this question was answered a couple pages back but it's still no crystal clear to me. So we have A.White list, B.New key generator, C.Use PSN, D.hardware revision.
5.Out of those which is the best method?
6.Will PSN ever be in danger of a hack?
7.Is there a perment fix that would not render everything including games useless?
8.Viruses. What could be done about them. Are they a real threat?

I was thinking, and Sony could make it harder for the user to open their system by ways of perks. They could start to sell their own apps that you can't get anywhere else that isn't buggy and are tested. Things like PS2 emulation and better browsers...hmmm

 

[Cheeto]

Ignorant thread? Or most ignorant thread?

 

[koji]

Oh man, I'm going all soft; in the dark ages a champion of the people was a warrior with an axe, in the digital age we get guys like this.

Seriously, respect! Shame a lot of people in this thread can't see past PSN, piracy and kids cheating in mp... It's not about that folks, it's about STICKING IT TO THE MAN! :lol

 

[test_account]

As far as piracy goes, yes. I'm sure there will be people which will buy the game for the key only, but play an modified iso. It's gonna be ugly and that's the part I really dislike about this situation.

That is true, i didnt think about that But i guess that it will lead to less potential cheating at least compared to if you can just download any game and play online without any problems.

2.If that's so then where would the programs come from? I thought the Cell was hard to program for.
8.Viruses. What could be done about them. Are they a real threat?

2. I think what is most difficult with programming for the Cell is if you want to take full advantage of the SPEs. More simple homebrew apps probably doesnt need the SPEs to run good.

8. When running homemade code that hasnt been checked by anyone, virus etc. could be a realitly. But i dont think that this will be a big threat in the big picture.

 

[Stumpokapow]

as i said lots of ways, Sony can use a whitelist with a secondary hash check on executables on your running game etc...

yeah but then someone will MITM the secondary hash check on a legit game and spoof that as well.

 

[darkwing]

Oh man, I'm going all soft, in the dark ages a champion of the people was a warrior with an axe, in the digital age we get guys like this.

Seriously, respect! Shame a lot of people in this thread can't see past PSN, piracy and kids cheating in mp... It's not about that folks, it's about STICKING IT TO THE MAN! :lol

revenge of the hipsters? :lol

 

[N.A]

Alright, big questions from me to those who could answer them:

1.So basically this allows the one's that have access to the hack the ablility execute any program?

It allows any currently available PS3 to run any program.

2.If that's so then where would the programs come from? I thought the Cell was hard to program for.

There is a leaked SDK and an Open SDK. There's already loads of homebrew available.

3.Do they have access to the GPU?

Yes.

4.What could be done about this? I'm aware that this question was answered a couple pages back but it's still no crystal clear to me. So we have A.White list, B.New key generator, C.Use PSN, D.hardware revision.
5.Out of those which is the best method?

Only a hardware revision in addition to a whitelist would permanently disable it.

6.Will PSN ever be in danger of a hack?

Yes, but online cheating is much easier to detect.

7.Is there a perment fix that would not render everything including games useless?

Not for any PS3 currently available.

8.Viruses. What could be done about them. Are they a real threat?

Unless your installing stuff from an untrusted source, then no.

 

[Shaneus]

Update .pup's and the contents of them are all signed and couldn't be modified (without the PS3 detecting it) before this key was found.

Bit late, but does that mean any of the updates that Sony officially send out can be decrypted and (possibly) modified? That'd be awesome for me as a way to get the UK PlayTV features enabled on my Australian PS3. Don't know if the other things I was enthusiastic about (like NTFS support) are any easier but being able to (effectively) run homebrew/unsigned code on any box is pretty awesome news.

 

[antiloop]

Good news for pirates. But can't Sony start signing new games with another key and update the PS3 firmware accordingly? The old games run on the old key ofc.

 

[darkwing]

Bit late, but does that mean any of the updates that Sony officially send out can be decrypted and (possibly) modified? That'd be awesome for me as a way to get the UK PlayTV features enabled on my Australian PS3. Don't know if the other things I was enthusiastic about (like NTFS support) are any easier but being able to (effectively) run homebrew/unsigned code on any box is pretty awesome news.

it would be ip locked like netflix

 

[pixelbox]

Thanks alot test_account and N.A.. That really sucks. How long did they have access to the GPU?

 

[N.A]

Good news for pirates. But can't Sony start signing new games with another key and update the PS3 firmware accordingly? The old games run on the old key ofc.

The problem isn't the games' keys, the only things these now accomplish is making sure a game is running on a firmware version that can decrypt them.

I can think of no way for Sony to release a firmware update that isn't decryptable by previous firmwares so the hackers will always have access to this process.

 

[Zoe]

I don't see any indication that this can just work on any PS3 by hooking up an external drive. A PS3 cannot natively recognize executables in that way. You would need a BD-R with either the executable or to install a hack to enable other methods.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

BTW, for those suggesting a white list. Nintendo did that with the DSi when it first came out. It didn't take long before that was bypassed.

Not to mention that such a list would be pointless with the PS3, since it could be bypassed in mere hours and nobody would really be stopped. It only really worked with the DSi because it required vendors to release new models of their flash cards (and prevented old models from working)

I don't see any indication that this can just work on any PS3 by hooking up an external drive. A PS3 cannot natively recognize executables in that way. You would need a BD-R with either the executable or to install a hack to enable other methods.

What about the PS3's ability to load firmware from a USB stick? That could easily be used to insert a file onto the HDD, or even load custom firmware...

 

[N.A]

I don't see any indication that this can just work on any PS3 by hooking up an external drive. A PS3 cannot natively recognize executables in that way. You would need a BD-R with either the executable or to install a hack to enable other methods.

They are releasing a signed update.pup.

 

[Phife Dawg]

This is great news, since I don't play my PS3 anyway (apart from a bit of Singstar now and then) I hope this allows me to be able to transform it into an awesome media center.

 

[Zoe]

They are releasing a signed update.pup.

Then it's not going to work on an OFW PS3.

 

[N.A]

Then it's not going to work on an OFW PS3.

Yes it will. The PS3 will think it's a legitimate firmware update because it is signed and then can install anything. (In marcan's example a Linux bootloader but in the future CFW).

Of course people who already have jailbroken have it easier and can install a signed FTP app, upgrade to the latest firmware and use the PS3's built in package install feature by putting stuff in the vsh/ folder.

 

[koji]

This is great news, since I don't play my PS3 anyway (apart from a bit of Singstar now and then) I hope this allows me to be able to transform it into an awesome media center.

Exactly what I am hoping for, if they have full access to the RSX and CELL now it would be awesome if we get a nice CFW and XBMC support in a couple months time. You'll have a kickass media machine for $299.

I don't think something like this would actually hurt sonys hardware sales either... On the contrary.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Then it's not going to work on an OFW PS3.

Why not? It is signed.

 

[dope4goldrope]

Then it's not going to work on an OFW PS3.

Can't the PS3 install new firmware updates via storage media? I don't see why since they can sign it.

 

[starok]

They are releasing a signed update.pup.

What if Sony disables firmware updates from external drives?

 

[Ronok]

I don't see any indication that this can just work on any PS3 by hooking up an external drive. A PS3 cannot natively recognize executables in that way. You would need a BD-R with either the executable or to install a hack to enable other methods.

Wouldn't it just work in the same way you install new firmware from a USB stick?

Edit: Beaten of course....

 

[Zoe]

Why not? It is signed.

Because once you install a non-official firmware that means it's no longer OFW?

Yes, you could go back onto official paths, but I would expect Sony to release more "security update" firmwares to kill the most popular hacks.

Wouldn't it just work in the same way you install new firmware from a USB stick?

My contention is that people are going around acting as if stuff from now on will not require hacks or CFW to work, and that is not the case.

 

[Mailenstein]

Alright, big questions from me to those who could answer them:
1.So basically this allows the one's that have access to the hack the ablility execute any program?
2.If that's so then where would the programs come from? I thought the Cell was hard to program for.
3.Do they have access to the GPU?
4.What could be done about this? I'm aware that this question was answered a couple pages back but it's still no crystal clear to me. So we have A.White list, B.New key generator, C.Use PSN, D.hardware revision.
5.Out of those which is the best method?
6.Will PSN ever be in danger of a hack?
7.Is there a perment fix that would not render everything including games useless?
8.Viruses. What could be done about them. Are they a real threat?
I was thinking, and Sony could make it harder for the user to open their system by ways of perks. They could start to sell their own apps that you can't get anywhere else that isn't buggy and are tested. Things like PS2 emulation and better browsers...hmmm

1. Yes.
2. There are SDKs you can use.
3. Yes.
4. Hardware revision
5. Hardware revision
6. Yes, but easier for Sony to sort things out.
7. No
8. Interesting question. For Wii there is a tool called BootMii which allows you to make a backup of your internal NAND flash memory. So whenever you fuck up something, you can go back. I expect something similar for PS3 anytime soon.

That is true, i didnt think about that But i guess that it will lead to less potential cheating at least compared to if you can just download any game and play online without any problems.

Hopefully, yes.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

It's always possible to include cd-keys. This wont be used for offline gaming, but it is needed for online gaming. Some PS3 games already have this (mostly to battle used game sales), like Medal of Honor, so it is possible. I dont think that this will be the first solution that is chosen, but if everything else fails, cd-keys is a solution at least.

Can't wait to play with cd-keys, my favorite thing from PC gaming world!

 

[Mailenstein]

What if Sony disables firmware updates from external drives?

Ethernet port.

 

[Ronok]

Because once you install a non-official firmware that means it's no longer OFW?

Yes, you could go back onto official paths, but I would expect Sony to release more "security update" firmwares to kill the most popular hacks.




My contention is that people are going around acting as if stuff from now on will not require hacks or CFW to work, and that is not the case.

Ok, let me change that, if it's signed, couldn't you just run it in the same way you'd run a game downloaded from PSN?

 

[Zoe]

Ok, let me change that, if it's signed, couldn't you just run it in the same way you'd run a game downloaded from PSN?

How would you get it onto the PS3?

 

[test_account]

Can't wait to play with cd-keys, my favorite thing from PC gaming world!

Hehe, i dont think that it will happend to be honest, but at least it will prevent some kind of piracy at least.

Ethernet port.

Dont you need to jailbreak the PS3 first then?

 

[starok]

Ethernet port.

Care to explain?

 

[CozMick]

People who see this as a good thing or a step in the right direction clearly doesn't play online multiplayer.

Cheaters will run rampant. It's as simple as that.

What a great day for gaming :lol

 

[mugurumakensei]

Dont you need to jailbreak the PS3 first then?

You could always have an app running on a computer.

Use wireshark to see how ps3 updates are negotiated over a network. Have the app set up the routing information to make the ps3 think your computer is a Sony update server.

Once the app is fully developed:
PS3 requests update -> update negotiated w/ ps3 using one of your local computers as the update server -> ps3 sees the update is signed -> proceeds to update.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Then it's not going to work on an OFW PS3.

Do you not understand what has just happened?

 

[Zoe]

Do you not understand what has just happened?

If you've made changes to the firmware, it's no longer OFW. People are acting as if you could continue with OFW.

With the way OFW works now, you would only be able to run apps off of a BD-R.

 

[intheinbetween]

What if Sony disables firmware updates from external drives?

I guess that would compromise updates from disc as well

 

[Durante]

How would you get it onto the PS3?

The same way the PSN store does.

 

[Mailenstein]

Care to explain?

Dont you need to jailbreak the PS3 first then?

I was about to answer it, but thanks mugurumakensei .

You could always have an app running on a computer.

Use wireshark to see how ps3 updates are negotiated over a network. Have the app set up the routing information to make the ps3 think your computer is a Sony update server.

Once the app is fully developed:
PS3 requests update -> update negotiated w/ ps3 using one of your local computers as the update server -> ps3 sees the update is signed -> proceeds to update.

 

[NHale]

Hehe, i dont think that it will happend to be honest, but at least it will prevent some kind of piracy at least.



Dont you need to jailbreak the PS3 first then?

It's already happening. If you want to play online in some EA games, you need to insert a code or buy it for $10, and Sony already did this experience with the last SOCOM released on the PSP. My guess is that this will be the first action taken by Sony. Then good luck trying to sell a game after using the code but I guess is a price that honest consumers have to pay, so others can use homebrew.

 

[The Faceless Master]

What if Sony disables firmware updates from external drives?

then you set up a proxy server on your network and make the PS3 download a signed update.pup from somewhere it *thinks* is the official website.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

It's already happening. If you want to play online in some EA games, you need to insert a code or buy it for $10, and Sony already did this experience with the last SOCOM released on the PSP. My guess is that this will be the first action taken by Sony. Then good luck trying to sell a game after using the code but I guess is a price that honest consumers have to pay, so others can use homebrew.

And we all see what wonders this has done for the PC platform. I don't want to turn this into a PC vs Console debate on customer rights, but if consoles ever go this way it will contract the market significantly.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

If you've made changes to the firmware, it's no longer OFW. People are acting as if you could continue with OFW.

With the way OFW works now, you would only be able to run apps off of a BD-R.

I think now you're using a merely semantic distinction. CFW on the PSP looks, smells, and acts just like regular FW (or at least it did when I cared) except that it can run unauthorized code.

 

[thehillissilent]

And we all see what wonders this has done for the PC platform. I don't want to turn this into a PC vs Console debate on customer rights, but if consoles ever go this way it will contract the market significantly.

That's why you have services like Onlive appearing, but anyway. That's another discussion.

 

[Zoe]

I think now you're using a merely semantic distinction. CFW on the PSP looks, smells, and acts just like regular FW (or at least it did when I cared) except that it can run unauthorized code.

Sony has less of an incentive to validate the integrity of a PSP's firmware. With the way the PS3 is supposed to always be connected, I can easily see them using PSN to sniff out unauthorized applications and firmware changes.

 

[starok]

then you set up a proxy server on your network and make the PS3 download a signed update.pup from somewhere it *thinks* is the official website.

What about changing the private keys to sign update files?

 

[RubberJohnny]

Man, Valve are going to mop up with Steamworks PS3. I can see developers and publishers running into its "lesser-of-two-evils" DRM arms right now.

 

[mugurumakensei]

What about changing the private keys to sign update files?

You can't change the private keys without breaking all existing games.

 

[test_account]

You could always have an app running on a computer.

Use wireshark to see how ps3 updates are negotiated over a network. Have the app set up the routing information to make the ps3 think your computer is a Sony update server.

Once the app is fully developed:
PS3 requests update -> update negotiated w/ ps3 using one of your local computers as the update server -> ps3 sees the update is signed -> proceeds to update.

I was about to answer it, but thanks mugurumakensei .

Ok, i see, thanks

I guess that would compromise updates from disc as well

Not neccesarily i think. When installing firmware update from a USB stick, i think that the PS3 "asks" for this. I guess that it shouldnt be any problem to disable this feature, but still allowing firmware updates to be installed from discs.

It's already happening. If you want to play online in some EA games, you need to insert a code or buy it for $10, and Sony already did this experience with the last SOCOM released on the PSP. My guess is that this will be the first action taken by Sony. Then good luck trying to sell a game after using the code but I guess is a price that honest consumers have to pay, so others can use homebrew.

True, i mentioned Medal of Honor PS3 myself earlier as an example But i ment to say that i dont think that cd-keys on PS3 will be a new standard because of this. As you say, it has already happend on some PS3 games, so it is possible that it will still happend again, but i dont know if it will be the norm, kinda like how it is on PC games. Time will tell though

Selling a used game shouldnt really be a big problem the way things works now i think. Of course, you might get less money for the game if those who buys it cares about online play, i guess this is what you mean, but it should still be possible to sell used games at least

And we all see what wonders this has done for the PC platform. I don't want to turn this into a PC vs Console debate on customer rights, but if consoles ever go this way it will contract the market significantly.

Personally i dont think that cd-keys will change much on consoles when it comes to consumers. Using cd-keys is a one time process, i havnt heard that this is a big problem with PC games at least. Stronger DRM on the other hand is worse, but just a simple cd-key check shouldnt be a big problem i think

 

[Erasus]

This is HUGE! We can sign code now, it will just think the program is from Sony. Awesome, cant wait to see what comes out of this!!