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[speedpop]

I'm not being a massive wanker over it. If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame excuse that Guerilla Games' character designer collected a whole heap of WW1-WW2 designs and meshed them together.... which is what Oshii did as well.

But I guess this thread is the worst place to bring up such a thing. Over zealous fanboys will bat an eyelid and defend the hive to the very end, whilst the rare few will sarcastically laugh it off with a shrug, even if the proof is in the pudding and they're devouring it.

 

[Tempy]

Maybe Oshii should sue the people who made Operation Darkness for the 360 too.

But he won't, because he's a smart man.

 

[SolidSnakex]

When did this go up? Because I don't see it live yet.

It's on the official website in the story section listed under "Early Helghan Era".

 

[Tempy]

I'm not being a massive wanker over it. If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame excuse that Guerilla Games' character designer collected a whole heap of WW1-WW2 designs and meshed them together.... which is what Oshii did as well

Fuck no, you accused GG of ripping off Jin-Roh. Don't start backtracking now. I'm not just a fucking fanboy, I *work* there.

 

[duckroll]

I'm not being a massive wanker over it. If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame excuse that Guerilla Games' character designer collected a whole heap of WW1-WW2 designs and meshed them together.... which is what Oshii did as well.

But I guess this thread is the worst place to bring up such a thing. Over zealous fanboys will bat an eyelid and defend the hive to the very end, whilst the rare few will sarcastically laugh it off with a shrug, even if the proof is in the pudding and they're devouring it.

Yes you ARE being a massive wanker over it. The fact that you use words like "lame excuse" and "zealous fanboys" while losing an arguement just proves it. You came in to start shit and when you were proven wrong you're taking the loser route of "oh well I don't really care anyway you guys are all overreacting". Come on, be a man.

 

[Evolved1]

IBut I guess this thread is the worst place to bring up such a thing. Over zealous fanboys will bat an eyelid and defend the hive to the very end, whilst the rare few will sarcastically laugh it off with a shrug, even if the proof is in the pudding and they're devouring it.

Do not blame other people for your own bullshit. You came in here and acted like a prick.

 

[Clinton514]

I'm not being a massive wanker over it. If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame excuse that Guerilla Games' character designer collected a whole heap of WW1-WW2 designs and meshed them together.... which is what Oshii did as well.

But I guess this thread is the worst place to bring up such a thing. Over zealous fanboys will bat an eyelid and defend the hive to the very end, whilst the rare few will sarcastically laugh it off with a shrug, even if the proof is in the pudding and they're devouring it.

*Shrugs*. What do you want, for them to shut down production of all future Killzone games?

There's a likeness in the base trooper and that's very little. It ends there. You said it yourself, you're no KZ fan- so I suggest you examine some more of the art from the series to see for yourself. It's all at the games official site.

 

[speedpop]

Fuck no, you accused GG of ripping off Jin-Roh. Don't start backtracking now.

Oh shit, I am going to go quote myself from an unedited post that was on the previous page just now!

The Helghast are just rip-offs (or unstated inspiration) of the Kerberos Panzer Cops - a manga and anime saga that was created in 1988 spanning a decade or so.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Tome1kamuikerberos.png

:lol

Yes you ARE being a massive wanker over it. The fact that you use words like "lame excuse" and "zealous fanboys" while losing an arguement just proves it. You came in to start shit and when you were proven wrong you're taking the loser route of "oh well I don't really care anyway you guys are all overreacting". Come on, be a man.

True true. I'll be a man and readily admit that I was being a prick and wanted to start something. I'll leave this thread. Good day gentlemen.

 

[tiddles]

try again.

that's such an awesome picture - so freaky, like Half-Life 2 come to life... we had it up on the wall in the office for quite a while, I seem to remember (although nobody ripped it off as far as I know... )

 

[NameIess]

True true. I'll be a man and readily admit that I was being a prick and wanted to start something. I'll leave this thread. Good day gentlemen.

I was not expecting that response... WOW!

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I'm not being a massive wanker over it. If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame excuse that Guerilla Games' character designer collected a whole heap of WW1-WW2 designs and meshed them together.... which is what Oshii did as well.

But I guess this thread is the worst place to bring up such a thing. Over zealous fanboys will bat an eyelid and defend the hive to the very end, whilst the rare few will sarcastically laugh it off with a shrug, even if the proof is in the pudding and they're devouring it.

just curious did the fact that WoW just cartoonified a whole heap of LOTR fan art bother you while playing the game?

 

[Tempy]

Oh shit, I am going to go quote myself from an unedited post that was on the previous page just now!

I can read pretty much fine what you wrote. And you just proved my point. Thanks for playing.

 

[duckroll]

I think this is a really good example of how iconic and influential design elements from WW2 can be. It spreads way beyond just stuff based on the war itself. It's too bad that certain groups of people are just too ignorant of the far reaching scope of iconic historical designs and instead want to believe that the iconic nature of such designs originate from their own favorite artists or whatever... lolz.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

guys who cares ppl rip of inferior shit all the time. It doesnt matter.


What I am more concerned about is that the SP campaign is being compared to the COD games. Which are shallow AI-less gimmick filled affairs. According to the AI video on gametrailers the Dev says AI will actully be dynamic thus nothing like Cod games?

Cod games are the biggest offenders when it comes to throwing drones at you yet 1up never complains about them!

can we start something over this shit now?

 

[jett]

Ah forget it, he's gone.

 

[tiddles]

If you go back to my original post I said "rip-offs (or unstated inspiration)". I had always wondered why they went the route they did. All that I could find was a lame

Does that mean we can call you a "massive wanker (or mildly annoying person I disagree with)" and it's ok?

 

[NameIess]

*Bump*

guys who cares ppl rip of inferior shit all the time. It doesnt matter.


What I am more concerned about is that the SP campaign is being compared to the COD games. Which are shallow AI-less gimmick filled affairs. According to the AI video on gametrailers the Dev says AI will actully be dynamic thus nothing like Cod games?

Cod games are the biggest offenders when it comes to throwing drones at you yet 1up never complains about them!

Well COD is not an exclusive AAA PS3 title...
Killzone 2 should have AI good enough to do your discrete math homework.
Let's remember the PS3 has the cell processor so the AI should be smart enough to wait until you turn off your PS3 to win the war in Helghan...

 

[itsinmyveins]

can we start something over this shit now?

Yeah, sure we can. COD4's singeplayer campaign was awesome on the first time through on normal (even with all the infinite repsawns), and broken piece of shit on veteran. But it does do some cool stuff either way, with the narrative and all that jazz. The mission "death from above" is really creepy, imho.

Which is kinda related, since the first Killzone also is a broken piece of shit in regards to the gameplay, although a pretty decent overall game. I liked how they managed to get that heavy feel into it, when you run fast and leap over small obstacles and etc.

 

[Evolved1]

I'll leave this thread. Good day gentlemen.
.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

*Bump*




Well COD is not an exclusive AAA PS3 title...
Killzone 2 should have AI good enough to do your discrete math homework.
Let's remember the PS3 has the cell processor so the AI should be smart enough to wait until you turn off your PS3 to win the war in Helghan...

well it should have good enough AI that makes playing the game not feel like you are running on auto pilot killing midless drones who react the same way no matter what you do.

 

[NameIess]

^^ :lol

 

[KZObsessed]

well it should have good enough AI that makes playing the game not feel like you are running on auto pilot killing midless drones who react the same way no matter what you do.

The A.I in KZ2 is really good according to those who've played it. TTP said they react differently every time and if you play an encounter again they can use different tactics. So no it's not scripted A.I. like CoD.

 

[InterMoniker]

Ah forget it, he's gone.

I felt like telling him to stfu too.

 

["God's Beard!"]

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

People compare everything to CoD cause everyone ball licks Infinity Ward for no reason. Then they go whine about the same shit CoD does exactly when it's in other games. Oh this is too linear! Oh this game has bad AI! Oh this game has respawning enemies! Oh this game has gimmicky bullshit! Oh this game has frustrating choke points!

When did Infinity Ward buy all these people off?

When they

Spoiler

nuked a city and holy shit it was from first person perspective and YOU WERE THE GUY

? Something of the sort.

 

[Insane Metal]

:lol

BTW the helghast are indeed a ripoff from that anime. And they are awesome. So the ones complaining just STFU.

 

[Concept17]

I think this is a really good example of how iconic and influential design elements from WW2 can be. It spreads way beyond just stuff based on the war itself. It's too bad that certain groups of people are just too ignorant of the far reaching scope of iconic historical designs and instead want to believe that the iconic nature of such designs originate from their own favorite artists or whatever... lolz.

Yeah. The artists at GG are amazing. And like all conceptual artists, they draw inspiration and reference from other places. There is no reason to single out the Helghast as some kind of "rip-off" as in many ways they are far more original than the majority of characters designs in every game. I don't see how anyone could look at the different class designs and not go "wow, thats awesome."

 

[Kabuki Waq]

The A.I in KZ2 is really good according to those who've played it. TTP said they react differently every time and if you play an encounter again they can use different tactics. So no it's not scripted A.I. like CoD.

what i am getting is why do the 1up guys give COD games a free pass on these things and sort of rip on KZ for things like enemies wearing masks.

 

[tfur]

Heh, it won't happen.

I am glad someone posted this in rebuttal to the Jin Roh nonsense. Sometimes I wonder if this part of history is no longer taught in schools when people bring up Jin Roh.

The German ww2 helmet and the waffen ss uniforms are the most iconic in modern history. I would assume it used as an artistic choice because of it's subconscious attachment to one of the most brutal armies in history.

Also, only a few of the helgast seem to use the German helmet. That fact seems to nullify the Jin Roh thing as well...

 

[Evolved1]

Also, only a few of the helgast seem to use the German helmet. That fact seems to nullify the Jin Roh thing as well...

Darth Fucking Vader wears an elongated German helmet and a mask.

Damn you Oshii! You ripped off Lucas!

 

[Y2Kev]

When they

Spoiler

nuked a city and holy shit it was from first person perspective and YOU WERE THE GUY

? Something of the sort.

omg so true! omg i was like "o no they wont!!!" and they did omg redeemed total shit campaign

 

["God's Beard!"]

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

what i am getting is why do the 1up guys give COD games a free pass on these things and sort of rip on KZ for things like enemies wearing masks.

I don't like to entertain a "bias" of certain things, but its becoming more clear to me that for whatever reason they have KZ2 slotted. And they have for quite a while. And its weird since its not like its coming from just one person, but various opinions ever since the E3 reveal, and they don't let up. The downplaying the graphics at first, the dumbest AI remark in EGM, the downplaying the KZ2 MP beta at first, the latest nitpicking of things, etc.

My only reason i can think of is its a game they feel should be scrutinized more because of the KZ2 "target" trailer. I know they'll say all games have flaws and should pointed out. And yes that's true. But then we get 1up show segments and reviews like GOW2, GTA4, Mario galaxies, Halo 3 that are essentially love fests. GOW2 didn't get any negative comments from 1up until a week or so later in the 1up yours podcasts. And they reason i think they're love fests is because with game critics reviews, and discussions of games up to release, the more they're personally hyped for the game, the more they overlook the flaws and play up the emotional response of their playing experience. Why are they not personally hyped? I don't know, but i'd wager its not on the system they personally prefer when not at work, and because of that first KZ2 trailer. Just look at the reviews of Metal Gear Solid 2. I love the game, but i think the game got higher reviews because of their own personal hype (and the collective gamer's hype).

I do think KZ2 has flaws (all games do), but i'd like to know what they really are. The complaints i'm hearing from the 1up site seem VERY minor and downright petty since they exist in a lot of other shooters that hold such high praise.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I don't like to entertain a "bias" of certain things, but its becoming more clear to me that for whatever reason they have KZ2 slotted. And they have for quite a while. And its weird since its not like its coming from just one person, but various opinions ever since the E3 reveal, and they don't let up. The downplaying the graphics at first, the dumbest AI remark in EGM, the downplaying the KZ2 MP beta at first, the latest nitpicking of things, etc.

My only reason i can think of is its a game they feel should be scrutinized more because of the KZ2 "target" trailer. I know they'll say all games have flaws and should pointed out. And yes that's true. But then we get 1up show segments and reviews like GOW2, GTA4, Mario galaxies, Halo 3 that are essentially love fests. GOW2 didn't get any negative comments from 1up until a week or so later in the 1up yours podcasts. And they reason i think they're love fests is because with game critics reviews, and discussions of games up to release, the more they're personally hyped for the game, the more they overlook them. Why are they not personally hyped? I don't know, but i'd wager its not on the system they personally prefer when not at work, and because of that first KZ2 trailer. Just look at the reviews of Metal Gear Solid 2. I love the game, but i think the game got higher reviews because of their own personal hype (and the collective gamer's hype).

I do think KZ2 has flaws (all games do), but i'd like to know what they really are. The complaints i'm hearing from the 1up site seem VERY minor and downright petty since they exist in a lot of other shooters that hold such high praise.

this is exactly what annoys me.

 

[SSM25]

Fuck no, you accused GG of ripping off Jin-Roh. Don't start backtracking now. I'm not just a fucking fanboy, I *work* there.

Fuck rip-off accusations and shit...I absolutely loooooove the Killzone universe design and story...hell I'm glad if it's based on WWII because I love history but hate real-life WWII based games like BIA and COD. (I can't shoot people knowing the game is based on something real, I'm a wuss I know).

 

[McLovin]

KZ2 gets criticized for some crazy stuff. Seriously what the hell is going on?

 

[Evolved1]

omg so true! omg i was like "o no they wont!!!" and they did omg redeemed total shit campaign

Liked CoD well enough... since I like shooters.

Got to say though, the respawning enemies and infinite grenades on Veteran difficulty... that was some solid ass game design right there. Man that was a blast.

*ping*

"Shit... I'll pick it up and throw it back, those bitches."

*Picks up grenade and begins to throw*

*ping* *ping*

"Oh fuck..."

*ping**ping**ping*



:lol


*ping**ping*

 

[Tempy]

I am glad someone posted this in rebuttal to the Jin Roh nonsense. Sometimes I wonder if this part of history is no longer taught in schools when people bring up Jin Roh.

The German ww2 helmet and the waffen ss uniforms are the most iconic in modern history. I would assume it used as an artistic choice because of it's subconscious attachment to one of the most brutal armies in history.

Also, only a few of the helgast seem to use the German helmet. That fact seems to nullify the Jin Roh thing as well...

For Killzone, many things are used for reference and inspiration. World War II is obviously the biggest influence.
Architecture for instance I know that they've looked at Italian fascist architecture. Radec Academy is a result of that. For the cluttered alleys seen in Salamun Market MP, and levels 2&3 in SP, Hong Kong alleys were referenced. If it doesn't exactly look like Italian fascist architecture or Hong Kong alleys, it's because those are just inspiration starting points, and not "Hey, let's copy this brick for brick".
I think if the lead visual artist could choose what to work on, he'd do a Judge Dredd game though.

 

[tiddles]

hey, I thought the 1Up show piece was pretty positive, overall... so maybe some of them ultimately weren't grabbed by the preview levels, but what are they supposed to do, pretend they like it even if they actually don't? Of course journalists will be affected by hype and personal enthusiasm, and while they should certainly strive to be objective as far as possible, it would be pretty boring to read articles if journos never let their passions and enthusiams influence what they wrote...

 

[Kuroyume]

Ah forget it, he's gone.

For good :lol

 

[itsinmyveins]

omg so true! omg i was like "o no they wont!!!" and they did omg redeemed total shit campaign

Infinity ward did a great job of using some of the scripted sequences. That part you guys just discussed did come as a surprise and the whole intro when you're fleeing from a sinking boat is awesome. The part in Chernobyl and the "Death from above"-missions are also impressive. Sure, the game is broken when playing on veteran, and the scripted sequences kinda lack the same punch once you've already seen them. But on top of that you've got the most entertaining multiplayer mode since Starcraft.

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

Infinity ward did a great job of using some of the scripted sequences. That part you guys just discussed did come as a surprise and the whole intro when you're fleeing from a sinking boat is awesome. The part in Chernobyl and the "Death from above"-missions are also impressive. Sure, the game is broken when playing on veteran, and the scripted sequences kinda lack the same punch once you've already seen them. But on top of that you've got the most entertaining multiplayer mode since Starcraft.

I wasn't slagging IW for including that sequence, just wanted to say that, yes that part did throw everyone off and people who enjoyed it remember it very well and hold the similar sequences in that game in high regard.

 

[ChryZ]

http://i33.tinypic.com/e9tbur.jpg

Mamoru Oshii is actually a pretty nice dude. On the subject of Ghost in the Shell VS Matrix:

While Oshii doesn’t like to play up similarities between his films and those of others, he says he is flattered by the similarities. “It doesn’t bother me; I don’t really think it’s about who stole what from whom, but there was a time when Japanese animation borrowed a lot from American filmmaking, so it’s a mutual relationship.”

Courtesy of http://www.filmstew.com/ShowArticle.aspx?ContentID=9699

 

[Y2Kev]

Infinity ward did a great job of using some of the scripted sequences. That part you guys just discussed did come as a surprise and the whole intro when you're fleeing from a sinking boat is awesome. The part in Chernobyl and the "Death from above"-missions are also impressive. Sure, the game is broken when playing on veteran, and the scripted sequences kinda lack the same punch once you've already seen them. But on top of that you've got the most entertaining multiplayer mode since Starcraft.

I am not really impressed by scripted "intenseness" though, especially when you're playing on a harder difficulty that SHOULD make the game more fun (like Halo or many other shooters for me) and you see those sequences 500 times. I think what they did with Death from Above was really quite smart, and I also love the other non-shooting level (Ghillies in the Mist). But the interaction between player and enemy in that game is so incredibly unsatisfying that I feel the meat and potatoes of the game is simply lacking. I just can't understand the appeal of shooting gallery shooters. I understand everyone likes what they like, but if you are stipulating you like the scripted sequences, "omg loud noises!!!" style explosions and set pieces, and enemies that pop up like whack a mole, then you should be okay with that in every game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Mamoru Oshii is actually a pretty nice dude.

I neither have a PS3 or watch anime. I just like making fun of people that say stupid things.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

KZ2 gets criticized for some crazy stuff. Seriously what the hell is going on?

it's ps3 exclusive, it has the best graphics this gen, gg actually managed to deliver something very close to that cg trailer...do you need more?

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I am not really impressed by scripted "intenseness" though, especially when you're playing on a harder difficulty that SHOULD make the game more fun (like Halo or many other shooters for me) and you see those sequences 500 times. I think what they did with Death from Above was really quite smart, and I also love the other non-shooting level (Ghillies in the Mist). But the interaction between player and enemy in that game is so incredibly unsatisfying that I feel the meat and potatoes of the game is simply lacking. I just can't understand the appeal of shooting gallery shooters. I understand everyone likes what they like, but if you are stipulating you like the scripted sequences, "omg loud noises!!!" style explosions and set pieces, and enemies that pop up like whack a mole, then you should be okay with that in every game.

Unscripted Intenseness will always be more satisfying. I admit when the Nuke went off it was impressive but it really was not a huge part of the game. Majority of the game was moving forward against mindless drones and hoping you have gone far enough to trigger anothe scripted sequence. IT wouldnt have been so bad had the game actually had dynamic AI. I think ppl were wowed by the bright lights and shit so much they were able to forigive the meat of the campaign being crud.

 

[itsinmyveins]

I am not really impressed by scripted "intenseness" though, especially when you're playing on a harder difficulty that SHOULD make the game more fun (like Halo or many other shooters for me) and you see those sequences 500 times. I think what they did with Death from Above was really quite smart, and I also love the other non-shooting level (Ghillies in the Mist). But the interaction between player and enemy in that game is so incredibly unsatisfying that I feel the meat and potatoes of the game is simply lacking. I just can't understand the appeal of shooting gallery shooters. I understand everyone likes what they like, but if you are stipulating you like the scripted sequences, "omg loud noises!!!" style explosions and set pieces, and enemies that pop up like whack a mole, then you should be okay with that in every game.

Halo 3 doesn't get more fun on Legendary, though, and there's just so much bullshit in that game too. But that's beside the point here.
I don't follow your train of thought when you say "if it's okay here then you should be fine with it in every game". What's that about? It all depends on what context it's used in, and how. There were scripted parts of COD4 that were awesome, but there were a lot of crappy ones as well. Just because a few were cool doesn't mean I want everything to be like that, you need to mix it up and make it work without the scripting being apparent. Since you seeminlgy don't care that much for scripted sequences, do you think there shouldn't be any in games at all?

The gameplay is fun in COD4, but there's a lot of issues and sometimes they are more obvious than other times. Playing it through on normal for the first time didn't really show off that many issues, but when I after that played it on veteran it all became very obvious.

 

[Y2Kev]

Unscripted Intenseness will always be more satisfying. I admit when the Nuke went off it was impressive but it really was not a huge part of the game. Majority of the game was moving forward against mindless drones and hoping you have gone far enough to trigger anothe scripted sequence. IT wouldnt have been so bad had the game actually had dynamic AI. I think ppl were wowed by the bright lights and shit so much they were able to forigive the meat of the campaign being crud.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm only saying is that you hear a lot of like, "This intense action is all scripted!" regarding other games (Resistance 2 was a recent example) and it's like...but you just busted a nut over that in this other game.

Halo 3 doesn't get more fun on Legendary, though, and there's just so much bullshit in that game too. But that's beside the point here.

Well, agree to disagree.

I don't follow your train of thought when you say "if it's okay here then you should be fine with it in every game". What's that about? It all depends on what context it's used in, and how. There were scripted parts of COD4 that were awesome, but there were a lot of crappy ones as well. Just because a few were cool doesn't mean I want everything to be like that. Since you seeminlgy don't care that much for scripted sequences, do you think there shouldn't be any in games at all?

This isn't really about what I like and dislike. I'm really just referring to criticism of sequences as being scripted or being unscripted or AI being scripted or unscripted. A lot of times these carry connotative meanings that don't really seem fair to me. I completely understand that you can script well and you can script poorly. My contention is that all these things should be judged fairly. I don't really see that, particularly when we're talking about enemy AI. AI is often (usually) quantified in nebulous, nonexact terms like "it's good" or "it's bad," but we have no real standard to measure against. Everyone understands what you mean when you say "the graphics are amazing" because we know what amazing looks like. But we struggle more in describing AI, and I think we have a lot of unfair criticisms of games that have similar (or the SAME even) AI.

The gameplay is fun in COD4, but there's a lot of issues and sometimes they are more obvious than other times. Playing it through on normal for the first time didn't really show off that many issues, but when I after that played it on veteran it all became very obvious.

Again, agree to disagree. I discovered I needed to rush to the back corner of the TV station on my first playthrough and that was pretty much it for my honeymoon with the game.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm only saying is that you hear a lot of like, "This intense action is all scripted!" regarding other games (Resistance 2 was a recent example) and it's like...but you just busted a nut over that in this other game.

I found chimera's to actually react to the way I was playing. You know not do the samke shit over and over again. I had to take cover try different things. I always felt like i was in control and not just along for the ride.