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[Kittonwy]

You're not getting it. If that's the pay off, many of us are saying we want our money back.

Why is that? Finally finding Alyx is the pay-off, getting to talk to Eli in his lab is a pay-off, those are all CUTSCENES, just done in first-person. Games are very much goal-oriented and it's about effort and reward, beating a boss and getting through a gate is a pay-off, but beating a boss and getting some sort of power/weapon that in addition to allowing you to reach a new area (basically opening a door only with a different sort of "key"), it also allows one to get a few new attacks, is a better pay-off, and if you get some insight in the story, even better, maybe a short but satisfying cutscene can enhance that overall experience.

Cutscenes are simply a form of pay-off, and a very satisfying one IF DONE WELL but not overdone, you get to know more of the story and at the same time learn more about the characters, not through reading some journals or listening to some tapes even though those are fine and dandy ways of fleshing out a story, but seeing how the characters react on-screen, their mannerisms, the way they physically deliver their dialogue, and you see your own character react in a certain way to these other characters, your character's own personality comes through in a way that in-game events simply don't allow, the interplay between your character and NPCs don't come through as clearly in an in-game event the way that it does in a cutscene. Essentially seeing dog for the first time is a CUTSCENE, it's just that you're seeing that in first-person. In HL-2 and even in Bioshock story-telling is still relatively straight forward.

The problem is you will never see how Gordon actually react to things like Eli's "*elbow**elbow* what about my daughter?", you'll never see him react in a subtle way via facial expressions or things likes like embarrassingly scratching the back of his head, Gordon has no voice, the main character in Bioshock has no voice, you're essentially just a pair of hands. In ICO when ICO first met Yorda you can actually see the slight fear in his eyes, towards the end you can see the determination and anger in his eyes, without the cutscenes these small details just don't come through as clearly. What I don't get is the attitude that more straight-forward story-telling is somehow to be sneered at.

 

[skip]

Yeah, skip, is the Beat the Press being recorded after GFW? (3 hour epic please?)

That's gonna be the most epic ever.

only thing we're actually recording on friday is 1UPY, and it'll be a full regular show with proper studio time.

 

[KolosLazar16]

only thing we're actually recording on friday is 1UPY, and it'll be a full regular show with proper studio time.

Fuck yes. <3

 

[Y2Kev]

only thing we're actually recording on friday is 1UPY, and it'll be a full regular show with proper studio time.

woot woot

 

[Polaris314]

Posted by dark10x in another thread:



I mostly agree with this, yet the first thing I did when I got control of the protagonist was to swim closer to the plane wreckage. I could muffled screams coming from the plane... the only problem is that the lines of the other survivors repeated pretty shortly, and even with the inferno going on, the screams kept going for, what, 10 minutes (which was when I left for the tower).

The result = immersion killed total. So there definitely are pros and cons to both storytelling methods.

A lot of all of this discussion ties into the old "you can't make everyone happy" adage. The developers have to go with what they believe is the best way to tell their story, and the audience has to trust them and go along for the ride. Imagine if they'd spent the time/money to make that intro immersive to the degree that you seem to want. What if only 2% of people who played the game actually noticed any of it? Granted, it's easier to point out the flaws with something like that than the strengths, but if you go back through the sequence, it was carefully constructed to keep you moving - flames forming a 3-sided box, the plane's tail section, the lighthouse conveniently beckoning you to come to it. You'll also notice you can't die there, which of course is another immersion-breaker - but what would be the point of allowing you to die before you even get to the main game setting?

Personally, I'm in the "there's room for both methods" camp, as long as they are executed well. But I would also like to see the narrative technique evolve as Shawn described - some developer changing up the "language" that a game uses to tell a story in a way nobody has pulled off successfully yet. I'm sure it can and will happen someday.

 

[traveler]

P90 w/Double Tap destroys anything else at low - mid range.

And I love it when people use Martyrdom; it's ridiculously easy to avoid. Also, knife only destroys people who don't turn up their sound. (Or, if you use that perk that makes you silent.)

 

[tanod]

@Shawn: Ignore list dude.

Just remind yourself that not everybody you talk to on the internet is over the age of 20 or so.

Also, check out xkcd.com today. Food for your soul.

 

[KolosLazar16]

@Shawn: Ignore list dude.

Just remind yourself that not everybody you talk to on the internet is over the age of 20 or so.

Also, check out xkcd.com today. Food for your soul.

Yo, I'm 17, I'm just not retarded.

 

[tanod]

Yo, I'm 17, I'm just not retarded.

I wasn't directing that at anybody in particular.


However, when you're older, you'll have a better understanding for a lot of things. Trust me. I don't mean to be condescending either but it's the truth.

 

[Rlan]

Poor Shane, so wrong straight up

 

[TDG]

I think kittonwy raises some good points. I like H-L 2, but there are still cutscenes in that game, even if they are in first-person. I think that for every game there are pros and cons to doing cutscenes certain ways.
The thing is, books, movies, and other media are linear, so it's easier to convey a story in them. In games, you can't force the player to hug someone or watch something happen, except through a cutscene. I really don't have a problem with a game-maker saying "this is important, watch this."

 

[TDG]

When you don't have cutscenes, it's hard to have present-tense developement of the character. That's why you need cutscenes if you want to show the audience something about the main character. If you don't show how the main character feels about developements in the story, then you must have an empty shell for a main character, much like Gordon Freeman.

 

[Kittonwy]

I think kittonwy raises some good points. I like H-L 2, but there are still cutscenes in that game, even if they are in first-person. I think that for every game there are pros and cons to doing cutscenes certain ways.
The thing is, books, movies, and other media are linear, so it's easier to convey a story in them. In games, you can't force the player to hug someone or watch something happen, except through a cutscene. I really don't have a problem with a game-maker saying "this is important, watch this."

I think it's fine as long as it's done in a way that doesn't take the player out of the game too much, I for one am not an advocate of having 10 minute cutscenes or even 5 minute cutscenes, there's always a need to balance game immersion and conveying a story effectively, there are times when one can tell the story better in-game and sometimes a brief cutscene can convey the emotions better, I don't know why one method should be preferred over another when they essentially complement each other.

 

[h3ro]

Just finished tonights podcast.. not bad... wish fourzerotwo gave more info on the MP maps...

also, I really want to see Mark's new Dragonball hair cut...

 

[gray_fox224]

gfw is done and sent to the printer.

PROGRAMMING ALERT

tomorrow:

1UP Yours - Denis Dyack, Mark MacDonald

GFW Radio - Erik Wolpaw, Kim Swift (originally for Friday)


friday:

1UP Yours - N'Gai, Stephen, John

GFW Radio - 1/2 American McGee, 1/2 Ken Levine

we only get a half-hour with Ken tomorrow night, so we're arming the boys with laser-guided questions and NO TANGENTS.

*DROOL*

 

[gray_fox224]

BTW, the new one is up on Itunes

 

[TDG]

Absolutely. I have no problem with either type of cutscene (when done well). The two types of cutscenes are good for different reasons and situations, and it seems unfair to portray one as good storytelling, and another as a tool used to convey shitty fanfic. (I'm generalizing.)

 

[LJ11]

So I just read the rest of this thread, while listening to the new podcast, and I'm kind of surprised. I don't think anyone is bagging on Shawn, not in the least, they're just disagreeing with him and having a discussion. Last weeks thread was fucking pitiful, but the comments in this thread are pretty restrained and fair (there's an exception or two but for the most part it's held true throughout the thread). Why are people misconstruing things and making mountains out of molehills? No one's attacking him from where I'm sitting.

 

[h3ro]

Why are people misconstruing things and making mountains out of molehills?

IB4 thisisneogafdude.gif

Its going to happen no matter who was on the show. It just so happens that Shawn is moving over from lots of people's favorite podcast (GFW) and brings something completely different to other peoples favorite podcast (1UPY). Theres going to be some clashing and odd moments until these guys get time to gel.

The worst part is, Shawn is going back and forth doing GFW as well so I wonder if that is hindering him getting into the swing of things with Garnett and Shane.

I just think Shawn goes through way too many periods of not saying anything at all. Yeah know, you shouldn't say anything if you don't have anything to add, but its a podcast so its almost like he comes out of nowhere when he starts up again...

 

[TDG]

I agree, LJ11. Last week was a different story, but this week has been a pretty reasonable, thoughtful thread. I'm surprised by some responses, very disdainful and angry. I understand why someone would want to defend Shawn: I also enjoy hearing what he has to say, which is why his participation in this thread is cool. However, I think some people have been too hasty to attack those who don't totally agree with or understand Shawn's position on cutscenes.

 

[LJ11]

Half way through and this is just ZzZzZzZzZzZ, does it get any better? I want to stay awake.

I agree, LJ11. Last week was a different story, but this week has been a pretty reasonable, thoughtful thread. I'm surprised by some responses, very disdainful and angry. I understand why someone would want to defend Shawn: I also enjoy hearing what he has to say, which is why his participation in this thread is cool. However, I think some people have been too hasty to attack those who don't totally agree with or understand Shawn's position on cutscenes.

People get worked up way too easily on GAF if you ask me, but I think that's fairly obvious. Hopefully people settle down and stop blowing the slightest thing out of proportion, it kills discussion.

 

[Elbrain]

Nice podcast 2/19 Amy Hennig, Naughty Dog & Lorne Lanning, Oddworld were awesome in this show very nice indeed.

 

[dead souls]

Same reason we come to expect more from games as generations go by; the bar gets raised, met, overcome, and reset.

Given that we've gotten from Pong to here, I would say there's a a lot of progress that has been made, and to argue that we're anywhere near "done" is silly.

My fundamental disagreement is that I think the lowest possible bar of story quality has never even been met. I hate to seem so negative but game stories are just abysmal. They're so bad that I would just prefer that they be left out. Developers should just focus on improving gameplay. They're called videogames not interactive stories.

 

[BigBlackGamer]

Not really feeling the IW 1up yours that much. He seemed very boring and mechanical in his answers and sometimes IMO didnt really know how to respond to some of the questions very well.

 

[Kintaro]

Not really feeling the IW 1up yours that much. He seemed very boring and mechanical in his answers and sometimes IMO didnt really know how to respond to some of the questions very well.

Yeah, this one is kind of a miss. Cest la vie.

 

[kiun]

skip, can you update the 1UP-Radio feed as well ? thanks

 

[Dartastic]

I think the best example of story through gameplay would be the ending of SotC. Rather than have that last "battle" play out via cutscene, which I think most developers would have done, you played it yourself. You not only saw the ending, but were forced to fight against it, against the fate you have made for yourself. By playing that ending you also got a sense of empathy for the collosi you had slain. On the flip side there is no alternate path or ending, try as you might the game only allows one path, much like MGS3.

Haven't listened to tonight's podcast, but I'm really looking forward to it. First point is, HOLY HELL I FORGOT ABOUT THAT. That was possibly one of the best endings I've ever experienced. It was... an almost perfect ending for such a fantastic game. I would LOVE to see more games use a story telling device such as this.

we're on for tomorrow with mark and denis. garnett, shane and bryan all played too human today, so we're prepped.

OH SHIT. Oh, and Shawn? I know that these threads can be a bit of a pain in the ass, but please don't leave. It's nice to read intelligent discussions. Ignore lists FTW.

 

[TTG]

Today's podcast was definitely meh. Maybe it's because I'm not a fan of COD4. Oh well, we'll see how tomorrow goes I guess.

 

[BrodiemanTTR]

Just got through Tuesday's podcast and I wanted to say that Lorne Lanning needs to be on at least one more time. It was a really great episode all around but Lorne in particular was just top-notch. Maybe it's just because the idea of sneaking a peek behind the curtain fascinates me, but I'd love to hear more of his thoughts and anecdotes about the games industry. The discussion about narrative in games was also excellent. Definitely one of the better episodes I can remember. Keep up the good work.

 

[SRG01]

I'd like to post my two cents:


Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit. The game, despite its flaws, was really a different method of storytelling. The whole game was basically the MC/player directly acting out the cutscene. Nearly every interaction and dialogue in the game involved some sort of player input.

The total opposite of this example is Dreamfall. As much of a great game as it is, it was lacking in the gameplay area.

 

[harSon]

Why did Shane feel so compelled to 'set the record' straight about XNA? :lol

 

[KolosLazar16]

Why did Shane feel so compelled to 'set the record' straight about XNA? :lol

Honestly, I'm kind of happy he did, MS skewed what it really is.

 

[noonche]

I think you guys are missing a lot of what Shawn is saying. He's not just saying that you need to have interactive cutscenes... Things like the layout of rooms in bioshock gave you a feel for who had lived there, it wasn't just listening to tapes as you ran around. You'd come into one person's house and they'd alcohol bottles strewn around the place, yet another wouldn't. It's details like this that can give you a better feel for a world and even characters in a story.

One of my favorite levels in Resistance has you coming into an underground base that has just been overrun by the Chimera. As you move through the facility you can see how the Chimeran's initially invaded, where there where likely big firefights and then where Chimeran demolition teams likely blew open walls in an attempt to flank the English defenders. None of this is ever delivered in a cutscene, but by the end of the level you have a good idea of how this place fell to the attackers, and you have learned it all in a way that is completely unique to videogames.

As another example, take Psychonauts. In my opinion, the majority of the hilarious parts in that game where not in cutscenes: the snippets of dialog during the milkman conspiracy, stomping things in lungfishopolis and the fight at the end, and that creepy climb up the asylum near the end are some of the highlights of the game for me. During each one of those you got story, character exposition and development with the a good dose of humor. All done without utilizing cutscenes.

That said, I'm still loving Lost Odyssey for the cutscenes and story.

 

[Elbrain]

Today's podcast was definitely meh. Maybe it's because I'm not a fan of COD4. Oh well, we'll see how tomorrow goes I guess.

Man if shit aligns correctly tomorrow the fucking wold is going to implode out of how epic it shall be!

 

[TAFKAA]

I'm on board with Shawn in thinking that MGS3 has some of the most inane cutscenes I've ever seen... the whole game felt like it was trying to rival Xenosaga for how little I could care, there was nothing clever or unique about the characters other than they were like bad super villains, and ranted like bad super villains.

my god.... you suck at gaming! Please don't play a MGS game again. Do me a favour

 

[Tendo]

I just hope that if/when Mark's Too Human comments are brought up, Dennis doesn't go crazy and say "See I told you it would be good!" which wouldn't change what mark said or meant in that E3 preview, that it was terrible AT THAT showing, and never made final judgment of a final or near final product. I'm interested to see how it all pans out, and how Too Human is received.

 

[harSon]

Honestly, I'm kind of happy he did, MS skewed what it really is.

He completely left out the fact that XNA development is absolutely free on the PC. The membership is only needed to deploy your game to the Xbox 360. He also failed to mention that a large portion of the userbase XNA is targeting (Students) can receive membership for free. Microsoft has yet to shed light on the pricing system so Shane's speculation is not the most concrete source of information around.

 

[voltron]

we really need to stop talking about Shawn and his opinion on cut scenes. jesus christ.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

ICO spoiler below...

Speaking of Ico and cut scenes/storytelling, the "Bridge Scene" has always been a particular standout in my book. Your compulsion to attempt the jump and "trigger" the dramatics that follow is such a wonderful use of psychology, and a great example of how it can be executed through the art of game design and direction. The player builds the strong bond between Ico and Yorda through its immersive world and mechanics, and it leads to a cinematic crescendo where you essentially wind up following the script in real time, not because you're forced to but because you're compelled to. You jump because thats what Ico would do, and the illusion is complete. Honestly that scene had me in the palm of its hand quite unlike anything I've ever played before (or since).

Spoiler

granted you could also be a dick and let the bridge run out and ruin the scene, but that means you're probably a sociopath and the game doubles as a rorschach test.

I suppose its kind of a middle ground between the HL2 school of interactive/perspective storytelling and the traditional cinematic approaches, but its always stood out to me as something of a rare height for the medium and what its capable of.

 

[stotch]

nm

 

[SonOfABeep]

Nothing against the 1up guys, and I greatly appreciate the daily podcasts, but that Infinity Ward guy just didn't sound good. So many "well we discussed that" answers and such.

I guess I would have to think CoD4 is more than just rubbish to listen with too much intent, though, so I blame myself for the lackluster podcast. :lol

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Word. I'll draw on Out of this World, Ico, BioShock, Portal, Deus Ex, Psychonauts (good god, this game really nailed it in parts), and others for variety.

I tend to agree with you so much, feck, I got laughed at by the 1UPYours crew (minus Garnett who just failed to articulate my point) when I said the choice to save Alex Denton was the only "real" choice to be made in gaming because nothing strung you along to reach it, it was totally reactionary. But you have to listen to Amy, games come in so many forms and have so many different stories to tell, there's obviously going to be different methods to do it. Beyond that you have to call Shane and Bryan out when they say it's alright to slow down and watch a movie for 10 minutes but god forbid if you have to read!

 

[okenny]

I had to make sure after the first 7 minutes that I wasn't listening to a "reputable" program like Fox. Shane was almost categorically wrong about everything he said about the new XNA Community program. I was even more dumbfounded when no one hit him on the head and told him to shut up. It finally dawned on me 1Up just let the #1 PS3 fan boy shit all over what could be the biggest news to come out of GDC this year: Any XBox LIVE member can download user created games and play it for free! Read it for yourselves here:

http://forums.xna.com/thread/46554.aspx

This really only bugs me because I don't know if this is lazy journalism on the industries media outlets or just a poor job on Microsoft's end to deliver a correct description of their service.

Anyways, understanding this service will really make you excited about the potential of Indie games. This is completely different from WiiWare, this is completely different from LittleBigPlanet, and the potential for this is better then both of those combined.

 

[traveler]

That is quite the debut...

 

[JeffGreen]

Note to Skip: That might have been my loud breathing today, but it definitely wasn't me yesterday. I remember hearing it myself when we were recording, thinking: "who the fuck in this room has emphysema?"

--Black Dragon Breath

 

[duk]

looking forward to tomorrow's podcast!

 

[Narag]

No shit. This is why GAF doesn't deserve nice things.

 

[Elbrain]

Note to Skip: That might have been my loud breathing today, but it definitely wasn't me yesterday. I remember hearing it myself when we were recording, thinking: "who the fuck in this room has emphysema?"

--Black Dragon Breath

:lol The Black Dragon's Breath legendary trinket in wow confirmed!

 

[DubloSeven]

Man, I'm seriously disappointed that IW haven't really got any new maps ready for CoD4.
I'm so damn sick of the maps in CoD4. There's probably only 2 or 3 good ones.

 

[Darkpen]

first of all, wtf?:

second of all, I get what everyone was saying about storytelling in games and cutscenes, but Amy Henning's point about how games that leave you in the experience don't do it right, either (aka not looking where you should be looking, doing something you shouldn't be doing) was one of the best points in that discussion.

I'm more on Garnett and Brian's side of the argument on how they welcome cutscenes as breaks in-between gameplay, and more or less rewards. If anything, that's post Final Fantasy 7 mentality, and that mentality, or perhaps reasoning, is there for a lot of people, and they accept that because that's fine for them.

Shawn clearly wants games to only be games, and expects the gaming medium to mature at a far greater rate than its doing right now.

Gaming is escapism by definition, and when a game fails to do that, and makes you more aware of your non-immerson, clearly its doing something wrong. That's how Shawn feels about cutscenes, and its an opinion that most gamers share, but just not at that level of outrage and demand. If anything, I don't even know why this discussions got spread out into a 7 page long thread, when the discussion really more or less cleaned itself up within the podcast.

Amy Henning made lots of great points and defended Uncharted's design choices like anyone who holds faith in their work. Downloading the new podcast now, can't wait to hear more GDC talk

Sidenote: the point at which most fans of MGS3 (who played it properly, immersed into the story and all that) were moved, I think, was in fact the EVA narration ending, which is really where all emotional strands from each cutscene of the past 20 minutes is strung up and blown apart as EVA hiccups and starts to get emotional in her voice, as the music rises slowly in crescendo, and you hear the drums, and the imagery and words alone makes you tear up a bit, as shivers are sent down your arms and body.

Killing the boss was a shock, and was just that much more effective in making you care. Then you forget about it, and there's happy love ending with EVA, then the story debriefs, and you realize just how much more there was to that scene, and what really happened.

The Boss might not be Alyx, but you never had to kill Alyx, either.