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Paper.

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Rell

Member
Paper thickness can be measured with calipers, but that makes way too much sense, so it’s usually expressed as a weight instead. Dead serious. In the US, a country that I am increasingly convinced knows fuck all about paper, the measure is weight (in pounds) of 500 sheets. Except that “500 sheets” does not mean “500 sheets.” It’s the weight of 500 sheets of a “basic size” of paper. The basic size for letter paper is a sheet that is cut into 4 letter-size pages. So it’s really the weight of 2000 sheets of paper. Fucking hell. You’ll usually find 20, 24, or 38 lb paper. Over 110 pounds is cardstock. What the “110lb” figure refers to is anyone’s guess. Maybe it’s a standard life-size cutout of Leonard Nimoy. How would we know?

Paper standardization is annoying because the industry is so old. Movements and trends in the industry are pretty much entirely engineering and operations related, rather than something purely developmentally scientific, and as such measurements are something that exist on pretty much a company-by-company basis. And these companies largely exist as islands. Proctor & Gamble have different metrics than Kimberly Clark have different metrics than Georgia-Pacific and International Paper. It's just the way it is.

There are really three critical parameters in all papermaking: Basis weight (sometimes referred to as "grammage"), caliper, and some kind of tensile break modulus. Depending on the product you'll find other things (saturation capacity, compaction, that kind of thing) but these three metrics are ubiquitous.

Basis weight means "mass per ream." One ream is typically 500 "standard" sheets. But: what this is essentially saying is "mass per surface area." The size of a standard sheet varies between products/companies/mills, so this number by itself doesn't mean much in a comparative sense. I'm actually not sure how this works from a product standardization standpoint (table 2 on page 6 of this document has some numbers, but I cannot comment on if they're actually adhered to from an advertised weight standpoint: http://www.tappi.org/content/tag/sarg/t410.pdf)

Caliper is exactly what you'd think it is: thickness per sheet or sheets. Different industries and products use different numbers of sheets (because a single sheet of communication paper is tough to measure on the fly with quality control lab equipment - it'll usually be something like millimeters/8 sheets).

There's a lot of room for "compacting" paper, this is usually done through giant rollers on paper machines (or after-winders) called "calendar stacks." Basis weight and caliper are related but not uncontrollably dependent on one another.


Break modulus is just a measurement of yield stress. Some companies do a "with grain" and "across grain" tensile test (sometimes independent numbers are targeted, sometimes an average or mean of some sort is targeted), some companies try to push an arm through the paper. There's a bunch of ways to do this, but some measurement of yield stress is present across the industry.


TAPPI (Technical Association of the Pulp and Paper Industry) has a lot to say about all these things. A lot of their stuff is available online behind a paywall, but with some decent Google-fu you can perplexingly bypass a lot of their red tape/convoluted site structure.
 

Norua

Banned
Great thread.

Being French, I grew up with Rhodia and Clairefontaine. I was really disappointed when I bought a Moleskine notebook a few years ago. The paper is terrible with fountain pens.

For day-to-day use and if I need to carry a notebook, I now buy Muji A5 black notebooks. It's cheap and the quality is surprisingly good. At home, I go with a larger Clairefontaine.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I wrote that in one of your past threads, but please keep doing these. Pure gems.
 
I love to write, though I never dipped my toe into the ocean of calligraphy. I love to use pens and pencils all day long, but I never dealt with the quality of paper in the same way.

Thank you for another great introduction into a very interesting topic. Your threads a really awesome, Bagels.
 

Bombless

Member
Thank you for your continuing work Bagels. That was a great read. I shall try to write more by hand in the near future.
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
Well I just read the OP and bought an A3 Rhodia pad from Amazon on the spot. Nice job!

Thanks for all the kind words, folks! I love making these threads. Writing things with a nice pen, on nice paper, is such a simple pleasure. It's kind of amazing that you can spend 10 bucks on a Rhodia pad, 10 bucks on a Pilot Metropolitan, and transform something that you do without thinking - writing crap down - into a really nice experience.

The Rhodia A3 dotpad is so damn good! I hope you like it as much as I do!
 

Wookieomg

Member
Thanks for the fantastic read, OP! As a first-time reader of your threads, I will definitely keep an eye out for anymore from you in the future.

Also considering picking up some Rhodia pads and some nice pens thanks to you! ^_^
 

Ludovico

Member
A Bagels thread, oh boy!
*wallet quietly begins weeping*

That Hobonichi planner looks legit, hope I don't forget about it come December.
 
A Bagels thread, oh boy!
*wallet quietly begins weeping*

That Hobonichi planner looks legit, hope I don't forget about it come December.
i was reading online they like to sell out

id order it sooner rather than later

my 2015 should be coming in the next week im really excited
 

Ludovico

Member
i was reading online they like to sell out

id order it sooner rather than later

my 2015 should be coming in the next week im really excited

I'm in the process of entering my credit information, when I decide to look up what the actual price is with exchange rate.

omg...
Might not be getting the zip-up cover after all....


Curse you, Bagelsssss!!!!!!!!
 

MR4001

Member
Tomoegawa also has unique cat attraction features...:

sebiwX3.jpg


Tomoegawa is divine. And, if you're someone who still prefers to keep a physical diary/planner/journal then you must get a Hobonichi! If you're watching the pennies you needn't get a case: the 'refill' is sturdy enough. (I've stopped using my case and cover.) They're fucking awesome!

If you're looking for something a little more fancy - say you want to write a love letter or a really fancy thank you note - then try to find some G Lalo paper - particularly their Verge de France line. It's laid, available in a range of delicate colours and there are matching lined envelopes. You'll really catch someone's attention with it. Original Crown Mill is nice, too, if a little blander - the crown watermark could have someone thinking you're royalty, though...
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
I caved and ordered my Hobonichi planner!!! I am so excited I might die.

I went with the larger "cousin" model (why is it called that???). The quotes and miscellaneous junk will be in Japanese, but I want that extra space to work with.

Planner + case, with shipping and everything, was $76, mailed to the USA. The shipping was cheaper when I added the case, for whatever reason. Assuming the shipping is the same, the "classic" size, in English, should be about $10 less. They give you some kind of freebie cheapo case with your order, too. But look at the official case!

zoom_3.jpg


zoom_4.jpg


I need those pockets!

It's a pricey investment, but I've been looking for a good planner forever and I've never found one. I know this paper is amazing with the pens I use and I love having a full page for each day, but in a planner that is still fairly compact. People absolutely adore these planners, so I'm guessing this will be worth it.

So excited! :D
 
Can I just go to Dollar Tree and get regular lined paper? What are the benefits of getting nicer paper?
I use ballpoint pens or pencils btw.
 
Incredible thread. I always thought I'm picky in choosing the quality of paper but this thread affirms that quality does indeed has its upsides.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
What I hate about paper, is that in my country the official paper sizes are letter and the like, instead of the much better and more logical use of the international A4 et al.

My only hope is that united statians seem to be warming up on adopting the international standard (A TON of newer products from there use that), which may just push us to adopt it, and stop with idiotic sizes.
 
I kind of really want one of those cases, and I'm 5 seconds away from getting that Earthbound one but they're so expensive!

and it has a mr saturn pencil board asgndfvbnzxn;fgh
 

Ludovico

Member
I kind of really want one of those cases, and I'm 5 seconds away from getting that Earthbound one but they're so expensive!

and it has a mr saturn pencil board asgndfvbnzxn;fgh

Do it.

I ended up getting the Original, with a black cover. Really wish there was a cheaper, closed design, but I'm pretty pumped about it anyway.

Might order some sheets of their paper to test ink before I ruin the book. It does have a warning on the order form about fountain pens...
 
Do it.

I ended up getting the Original, with a black cover. Really wish there was a cheaper, closed design, but I'm pretty pumped about it anyway.

Might order some sheets of their paper to test ink before I ruin the book. It does have a warning on the order form about fountain pens...
thats a good idea but i might just try it on some pages near the back like the area codes or whatever
it's backordered till December I HATE YOU ALL FOR POINTING THIS SITE OUT TO ME

yo im in if you are
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
Do it.

I ended up getting the Original, with a black cover. Really wish there was a cheaper, closed design, but I'm pretty pumped about it anyway.

Might order some sheets of their paper to test ink before I ruin the book. It does have a warning on the order form about fountain pens...

The quality of the paper is actually a big part of the appeal for me. The sheet of Tomoe River (which is what's in the Hobonichi) that MR4001 sent me is, as he said, divine. The pen glides over it beautifully. I didn't test it, but I'm fairly certain my fountain pen inks took a little longer than usual to dry on Tomoe River - that's what the warning is about. I'll take that any day of the week, but lefties beware!

You can get 3 sheets of Tomoe River for a buck, if you're ordering other jetpens stuff (need that $25 order for free shipping!), or 100 sheets for $15. I'm going to grab some just because it is so wonderful to write on.

It looks like we will need a Hobonichi Techo thread in a week or two! :D

zoom_2.jpg
 
My Techo came today.

It's so small! And the paper so thin!

I don't want to write in it to ruin it... but that kind of defeats the purpose I spose.

Please make the Techo thread bagels.
 

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
I LOVE clairefontaine. best paper in the world.

asked, no begged my mother to buy me some lefty A4-size spiral-bound notepad from clairefontain.

she bought me "oxford" because the sales person said it is the same quality...BULLSHIT.

i can't understand how people can write on cheap paper..

i always write with one of my fancy japanese mechanical pencils. he rotates the tip of the pencil so i always write with a sharp tip. stopped writing with ink when i started studying. only in tests i use ink..everything else: pencil

if someone knows where i can buy Hobonichi planner in europe..tell me please. sounds awesome.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
As far as notebook holders go nothing beats midori for style, though super impractical since it doesn't hold any format other than their paper really unless you're prepared to cut.

 
I LOVE clairefontaine. best paper in the world.

asked, no begged my mother to buy me some lefty A4-size spiral-bound notepad from clairefontain.

she bought me "oxford" because the sales person said it is the same quality...BULLSHIT.

i can't understand how people can write on cheap paper..

i always write with one of my fancy japanese mechanical pencils. he rotates the tip of the pencil so i always write with a sharp tip. stopped writing with ink when i started studying. only in tests i use ink..everything else: pencil

if someone knows where i can buy Hobonichi planner in europe..tell me please. sounds awesome.

http://www.1101.com/store/techo/2015/planner/

Pretty sure it ships to europe!

Also the Earthbound cover is sold out again so I guess I won't be getting a cover this year (I kind of wrote off doing it when I realized I'd have to pay shipping twice because I didn't do it with my planner :/ ).
 

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
shipping breaks my neck..still a student ^^"..and yeah.

bagels i really hope you get to japan someday. the quality of the paper is great.

maybe i should send you some..have enough left and maybe you could tell me that it is trash.

i like this thread! amazing.

sad that the cover with the zipper is soooo expensive.
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
My Techo came today.

It's so small! And the paper so thin!

I don't want to write in it to ruin it... but that kind of defeats the purpose I spose.

Please make the Techo thread bagels.

Mine has landed in Chicago! It should be here on Monday!!!!

I'll put together a thread after I have had time to gaze upon its beauty.

As far as notebook holders go nothing beats midori for style, though super impractical since it doesn't hold any format other than their paper really unless you're prepared to cut.

That really is nice lookin'. And look at that Iroshizuku cameo!

shipping breaks my neck..still a student ^^"..and yeah.

bagels i really hope you get to japan someday. the quality of the paper is great.

maybe i should send you some..have enough left and maybe you could tell me that it is trash.

i like this thread! amazing.

Sera O sent me a few ore types of paper to try, including Midori! That should be here soon, too!

I need my own travel show where I fly across the globe in search of only the finest papers. It will be called "This show has been cancelled. Literally no one wants to watch this."

Are you using a Uni Kuru Toga pencil? I love mine.
 
I really like the Hibonichi Techno and Cousin planners, but for me they are not very practical. I'd need one that goes for one year from August instead of January (teacher). Does anyone know a nice planner for teachers as the one I got from my employer kind of sucks?
 

CheesecakeRecipe

Stormy Grey
As far as notebook holders go nothing beats midori for style, though super impractical since it doesn't hold any format other than their paper really unless you're prepared to cut.

I really want the Midori traveler's notebook but I always fight with myself over how much I want to spend on what is mostly just a leather cover. I hear you can buy Banditapple Carnet notebooks and fit them into the Midori, though you'll miss out on that Midori paper.

Speaking of Midori though, got my new MD Notebook in! The stitched webbing binding really lets it lay flat! Don't have the time to scribble anything useful in it right at this second but I like the feel of the pages.

ibeGqj1ORS4SV9.jpg

iskUeBn0BRPxI.jpg
 

Ludovico

Member
I really like the Hibonichi Techno and Cousin planners, but for me they are not very practical. I'd need one that goes for one year from August instead of January (teacher). Does anyone know a nice planner for teachers as the one I got from my employer kind of sucks?

Exact same situation here. Sucks that it's going to cut off at the halfway-point with regards to the school year, but I can't wait to start filling out my Techno. I figure I'll use it more for journal-ing and venting, while planning is going to stay with my mead/cambridge combo.

Techno has left Tokyo. Can't wait for it to get here
and mock me from the counter until January...
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
Exact same situation here. Sucks that it's going to cut off at the halfway-point with regards to the school year, but I can't wait to start filling out my Techno. I figure I'll use it more for journal-ing and venting, while planning is going to stay with my mead/cambridge combo.

Techno has left Tokyo. Can't wait for it to get here
and mock me from the counter until January...

"Do any Hobonichi Planners start with a month other than January?

We currently have no plans to offer any mid-year English Hobonichi Planners.
There is a Spring version of the Japanese-version Hobonichi Techo that begins with April and goes on sale every year on February 1st."

The original and Cousin versions are apparently released in school-year-friendly Spring editions! :)
 

Ludovico

Member
There is a Spring version of the Japanese-version Hobonichi Techo that begins with April and goes on sale every year on February 1st."
*wallet quietly begins weeping*

Seriously, Bagels?

REALLY?

We start the first week of August and don't let out until the end of May, just going to be really happy with my techno - leaving Chicago now!! Or leaving the customs room and sitting in the shipping room, didn't really understand the tracking descriptor...
 

Bagels

You got Moxie, kid!
Seriously, Bagels?

REALLY?

We start the first week of August and don't let out until the end of May, just going to be really happy with my techno - leaving Chicago now!! Or leaving the customs room and sitting in the shipping room, didn't really understand the tracking descriptor...

Haha! I didn't know! Sorry! People seem to get really into them, so we'll all consider this a trial run for further hobonichi-ing.

I expect you and SteveWinwood to help me with the Hobonichi thread! We'll need some impressions!


Of more general interest, Massdrop (a group buy community) has split off a "Writing Community" from the "Everyday Carry" category. It's worth signing up for Pen & Paper. They currently have good deals on Lamy Safaris, Pilot Metropolitans (they usually have a two-pack for $25), Quo Vadis notebooks (I am sorely tempted...). Vanishing Points win fountain pen polls pretty often - they'll go for $100, which is unreal. Rhodia pads are popular, sets of Pilot Parallel pens, Rotring mechanical pencils, Iroshizuku inks...

Anyway, it's worth signing up (for free!), voting in some polls, and watching for good deals. If you use this link, I can get free stuff! And don't you owe me for getting you to waste all this money on pens and paper?
 
Awesome thread!

I never go anywhere without my moleskin.

If I feel like making more of a serious drawing I'll get some Bristol. It's good to buy some expensive paper sometimes so you don't go goofing off too much.

Here's the one I'm on right now, hopefully this photo shows the texture. Strathmore Bristol Vellum.
Gotta say, that is fucking beautiful. Great choice on the paper too.
 

Kientin

Member
Bagels, you are a plague on my wallet, but I love your threads. I'm pretty much sold on a Hobonichi I think. I'm going to wait until next year's edition comes out. I can't justify spending that much on a planner that starts on January when about 3/4ths of the year is already over haha. I also got some Clairefontaine paper which feels pretty great to write on. The Rhodia dot matrix paper looked pretty incredible. I wanted something that is spiral bound for now however, and I wasn't seeing any of that that anywhere.
 
Yep super impressed with mine. I played around with it a bit. Gonna use it for work/school.

If you need pics of my small english version just let me know Bagels.
 
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