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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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FoM is a necessity to facilitate the current state of the free market. You could have a FTA that excludes FoM but its scope would be limited from that. You can't include services for example and many kinds of modern industries require moving people over on a regular basis. It's a very difficult compromise to reach and no even in the UK's interests.

The UK has no use for a FTA that doesn't include services.


The people in the UK that actually liked the EU only ever did for selfish reasons largely. 'It's good for the economy' 'It keeps UK influence in the continent' etc. So yeah.
Traditional industries required Europeans to work across borders pre FoM , mine for example.
My older colleagues had been working all over Europe for years and barely noticed any change post Maastricht . The only real difference that i was personally aware of was, before 1992,people needed work permits to take employment in another EU country.
It was a political decision to force an ever closer union and the UK people weren't even given a choice on accepting the Maastricht treaty.
 

Xando

Member
And yet the single market existed long before FoM.
I cannot accept that the two are inextricably linked and that one couldn't work without the other. Things worked perfectly fine before 1992.
I'm not sure what difference this makes. The EU isn't claiming this was the case before 1992.

The remaining EU countries decided FoM is needed to stay within the single market so that is their position.

Like it or not, it is the official negotiating position and unless the UK can offer something(i'm not sure what that would be) that makes them willing to sacrifice the four freedoms it won't change.
 

Theonik

Member
Traditional industries required Europeans to work across borders pre FoM , mine for example.
My older colleagues had been working all over Europe for years and barely noticed any change post Maastricht . The only real difference that i was personally aware of was, before 1992,people needed work permits to take employment in another EU country.
It was a political decision to force an ever closer union and the UK people weren't even given a choice on accepting the Maastricht treaty.
I'm not going to dispute that. But not needing to apply for work permits has made many people's lives easier no?
E: Part of the reason to move in that direction was realising that the current arrangement didn't work and FoM would make people's lives easier.
 
I'm not sure what difference this makes. The EU isn't claiming this was the case before 1992.

The remaining EU countries decided FoM is needed to stay within the single market so that is their position.

Like it or not, it is the official negotiating position and unless the UK can offer something(i'm not sure what that would be) that makes them willing to sacrifice the four freedoms it won't change.
It doesn't make a difference I agree, but the notion that one cannot work without the other is folly.
As splinter pointed out it's an agreement not a necessity.
Theonik . It did make life easier and I wasn't against FoM until the ascension of unalligned economies created an influx of cheap labour driving down wages.
 

Meadows

Banned
New data from YouGov.

How should Britain proceed on Brexit?

Continue on current path: 43%
Reconsider aims and go for a softer Brexit: 23%
Offer a 2nd referendum: 17%
Abandon Brexit and rejoin EU: 7%
Don't know: 10%

That might sound bad, but it shows there is 47% support for either remaining in SM or EU as a whole vs 43% that want it to go on as is (i.e. hard brexit).

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/majority-favour-pushing-brexit-many-are-tempted-so/
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Freedom of movement and freedom of capital work together in ensuring that the companies get a fair chance in competing in a free trade market. Freedom of movement actually counterbalances the freedom of capital. While in theory the EU could have a free market without freedom of movement, in practice, in this globalized world the lack of it would severely hurt the competitiveness of a lot of companies. The lack of freedom of movement might as well made the run away of industries even more severe than it was.

Freedom of movement is benefiting EU as a whole.
 

kmag

Member
It doesn't make a difference I agree, but the notion that one cannot work without the other is folly.
As splinter pointed out it's an agreement not a necessity.
Theonik . It did make life easier and I wasn't against FoM until the ascension of unalligned economies created an influx of cheap labour driving down wages.

If you have freedom of capital but not of labour, you simply get capital flight to the cheapest possible locale.

It's basic economics.

There's a reason freedom of capital was the last freedom the EEC adopted.

Here's a simple explainer from the LSE

The UK’s relationship with the single market has been debated extensively over the last few months. The same can be said of the costs and benefits (economic and otherwise) of free movement and immigration to Britain. What has been less discussed, but is worth considering in the current context, is the relationship between free movement of capital, goods and services, on the one hand, and freedom of movement on the other. Why, economically speaking, do these four freedoms go together?

The simplest answer to this question is that the free movement of capital, goods and services without free movement of people is bad for workers. Having free movement without the free movement of capital goods and services, however, would be bad for business and investment. A balance between the two is needed in order for markets to function properly. We can illustrate this using a few hypothetical scenarios, adapted from an argument made by Joseph Siglitz, which, although simplifications, demonstrate important directions of travel in both cases.

First, imagine a situation in which no worker is allowed to relocate to different countries for a new job, while companies could move at a moment’s notice, continuing to export to the country they’ve just left. Businesses would simply move to wherever wages were lowest, and carry the real threat of leaving should employees become too demanding with wages or conditions. Desperate to bring jobs back to their country, employees – whether organised or not – would have to lower their demands to the lowest possible subsistence level, and wages everywhere would be permanently supressed. This would generate a race to the bottom – great for those at the top, but terrible for everyone else.

The balance of power between employees and employers would be tipped all the way in favour of employers, and workers – whether unionised or not – would be in a difficult situation. Contrary to the common discourse, there is also evidence that labour mobility can help to push up wages overall. Of course, in cases where migration is particularly one-sided, wages might go down in certain localities, but the overall trend should be positive.

Second, imagine a situation where employees were free to move around with no restrictions from states, and with a high degree of willingness and a low cost to relocate for higher wages – near perfect labour mobility. At the same time, there are high tariffs on trade and capital flows are severely restricted. Workers would simply move to wherever wages were highest, and employers would have to keep raising wages to keep their employees from leaving.

This would be great for workers, and indeed Stiglitz leaves the argument here, claiming the reason we don’t have mobile labour without mobile capital is simply ‘that’s not the world we live in… partly because the one percent doesn’t want it to be that way’. But where would the incentive be for investment or taking a risk on starting a new business if any potential profits are squeezed to zero? Why would companies bother to improve their practices if they received no share of the benefits of productivity gains?

The threats of either party leaving need to be somewhat in balance in order to ensure the market functions properly. Of course, this could be achieved by closing borders and introducing import quotas and tariffs. But then you lose all the efficiency gains of trade (see Ricardo’s theory of comparative advantage), and you get a sub-optimal allocation of resources – including workplaces and suitable employees being poorly matched up. In order to gain these benefits, all four pieces of the puzzle (goods, services, capital and labour) need to be mobile. A market with severely restricted labour mobility is a rigged market, not a free market.

This isn’t a revolutionary insight by any stretch of the imagination, and of course these theoretical scenarios don’t capture the realities and subtleties – economic, political and social – of any particular case. But in our public discourse we appear to have come to the conclusion that free trade without free movement is the ideal outcome, whether we think it’s politically feasible or not. Whatever your political preferences, it’s worth remembering that the four freedoms are taken (or left) together for a reason.
 
First, imagine a situation in which no worker is allowed to relocate to different countries for a new job, while companies could move at a moment�s notice, continuing to export to the country they�ve just left. Businesses would simply move to wherever wages were lowest, and carry the real threat of leaving should employees become too demanding with wages or conditions. Desperate to bring jobs back to their country, employees � whether organised or not � would have to lower their demands to the lowest possible subsistence level, and wages everywhere would be permanently supressed. This would generate a race to the bottom � great for those at the top, but terrible for everyone else.
This already happens. Even with FoM it's unlikely that the workforce from a huge manufacturing plant in France are going to relocate to eastern Europe and work for 40% of what they earned.
The balance is not there in practice. Although it's an interesting read.
 

Theonik

Member
This already happens. Even with FoM it's unlikely that the workforce from a huge manufacturing plant in France are going to relocate to eastern Europe and work for 40% of what they earned.
The balance is not there in practice. Although it's an interesting read.
But move the plant will regardless as capital can move. Without freedom of movement balance further shifts. If you think it's bad now wait till that happens. The problems capital faces is that eventually all these areas will be developed using their capital. Wages are going up on average because of this. And of course the single market itself is the best defence for workers against this race to the bottom in the first place. We can keep companies within the single marker using the leverage its collective size and wealth gives us. Want to relocate to India? Pay the increased import levies. Etc.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
New data from YouGov.

How should Britain proceed on Brexit?

Continue on current path: 43%
Reconsider aims and go for a softer Brexit: 23%
Offer a 2nd referendum: 17%
Abandon Brexit and rejoin EU: 7%
Don't know: 10%

That might sound bad, but it shows there is 47% support for either remaining in SM or EU as a whole vs 43% that want it to go on as is (i.e. hard brexit).

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/majority-favour-pushing-brexit-many-are-tempted-so/

What is the current path lol?
 
Traditional industries required Europeans to work across borders pre FoM , mine for example.
My older colleagues had been working all over Europe for years and barely noticed any change post Maastricht . The only real difference that i was personally aware of was, before 1992,people needed work permits to take employment in another EU country.
It was a political decision to force an ever closer union and the UK people weren't even given a choice on accepting the Maastricht treaty.

Why do you guys even elect a parlament? No one asked us is maybe even worse nonsense than the expectation of some people that the EU is like a beaten housewife and is only allowed to act in the best interest of the UK.
 

oti

Banned
Traditional industries required Europeans to work across borders pre FoM , mine for example.
My older colleagues had been working all over Europe for years and barely noticed any change post Maastricht . The only real difference that i was personally aware of was, before 1992,people needed work permits to take employment in another EU country.
It was a political decision to force an ever closer union and the UK people weren't even given a choice on accepting the Maastricht treaty.

Let's hold a referendum for everything YAY!
The bus industry is going to love it.
 

Theonik

Member
Theonik . It did make life easier and I wasn't against FoM until the ascension of unalligned economies created an influx of cheap labour driving down wages.
I did want to reply to this in particular. The mid-2000s ascension was a UK idea! Largely designed to help the UK economy by supplying cheap labour. I can sort of agree with that. But I don't think FoM would have changed that much. The UK would have simply increased the non-EU migration if their request was denied.
 
I did want to reply to this in particular. The mid-2000s ascension was a UK idea! Largely designed to help the UK economy by supplying cheap labour. I can sort of agree with that. But I don't think FoM would have changed that much. The UK would have simply increased the non-EU migration if their request was denied.
I know it was . I also know that limits on immigration from eastern EU were enforced by other members. I'm not blaming the EU at all. My point , which seemed to end with the usual europhile circle jerk and pile on ,was that a single market existed before FoM.
As is well known I voted to remain a member despite my views on FoM . I thought the benefits probably just outweighed the negatives , but having spent the last 12 months in this OT, I'd probably vote to leave in a second referendum.
Dissenting opinion of the glorious EU will not be tolerated and some Europeans seem incredibly bitter about the UK decision.
 
I know it was . I also know that limits on immigration from eastern EU were enforced by other members. I'm not blaming the EU at all. My point , which seemed to end with the usual europhile circle jerk and pile on ,was that a single market existed before FoM.
As is well known I voted to remain a member despite my views on FoM . I thought the benefits probably just outweighed the negatives , but having spent the last 12 months in this OT, I'd probably vote to leave in a second referendum.
Dissenting opinion of the glorious EU will not be tolerated and some Europeans seem incredibly bitter about the UK decision.

Okay, buddy.
 
I know it was . I also know that limits on immigration from eastern EU were enforced by other members. I'm not blaming the EU at all. My point , which seemed to end with the usual europhile circle jerk and pile on ,was that a single market existed before FoM.
As is well known I voted to remain a member despite my views on FoM . I thought the benefits probably just outweighed the negatives , but having spent the last 12 months in this OT, I'd probably vote to leave in a second referendum.
Dissenting opinion of the glorious EU will not be tolerated and some Europeans seem incredibly bitter about the UK decision.

Why wouldn't we? We compromised with the UK as much as possible in the last years and tried to accommodate you as much as possible. And instead of being thankful or anything in that direction, your country threw it all in the bin blaming us for all your problems. I'm not talking about you in particular, before you try to defend yourself, I'm talking about the general population and the government.

How you could vote to leave, an almost complete negative (I'm saying almost just in case, I really don't have anything positive in mind) because you have some image of the EU being evil overlords that you can't have valid criticism against, is beyond me.
 

oti

Banned
I know it was . I also know that limits on immigration from eastern EU were enforced by other members. I'm not blaming the EU at all. My point , which seemed to end with the usual europhile circle jerk and pile on ,was that a single market existed before FoM.
As is well known I voted to remain a member despite my views on FoM . I thought the benefits probably just outweighed the negatives , but having spent the last 12 months in this OT, I'd probably vote to leave in a second referendum.
Dissenting opinion of the glorious EU will not be tolerated and some Europeans seem incredibly bitter about the UK decision.

Direct Democracy works!
 

daviyoung

Banned
Why wouldn't we? We compromised with the UK as much as possible in the last years and tried to accommodate you as much as possible. And instead of being thankful or anything in that direction, your country threw it all in the bin blaming us for all your problems. I'm not talking about you in particular, before you try to defend yourself, I'm talking about the general population and the government.

How you could vote to leave, an almost complete negative (I'm saying almost just in case, I really don't have anything positive in mind) because you have some image of the EU being evil overlords that you can't have valid criticism against, is beyond me.

Yeh well you won't have to worry about those concessions now, so celebrate?
 
Yeh well you won't have to worry about those concessions now, so celebrate?

I won't celebrate about wasted time and energy on these concessions or the EU having one member less because of hate campaigns and populism with some lies mixed in.

There are positives for the EU of course, but I don't see how we can't be bitter about it.
 

Theonik

Member
I think this attitude is counterproductive and causes much of the current dissent and anti-EU sentiment at the moment. Not the posters in particular but I have seen the Greece fiasco often cited by many brexiteers I've met IRL as a turning point in them deciding they didn't want to be part of the EU as an example. The attitude helps no-one.
 
I think this attitude is counterproductive and causes much of the current dissent and anti-EU sentiment at the moment. Not the posters in particular but I have seen the Greece fiasco often cited by many brexiteers I've met IRL as a turning point in them deciding they didn't want to be part of the EU as an example. The attitude helps no-one.

What attitude exactly? Being bitter about it?
 

Xando

Member
I think this attitude is counterproductive and causes much of the current dissent and anti-EU sentiment at the moment. Not the posters in particular but I have seen the Greece fiasco often cited by many brexiteers I've met IRL as a turning point in them deciding they didn't want to be part of the EU as an example. The attitude helps no-one.
Well if Greece was such a big deal for them why didn't they swoop in and give Greece some money. Complaining from the outside is just a lazy excuse.


In other news:

DCapAA5V0AE9hht.jpg

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/
 

Theonik

Member
Well if Greece was such a big deal for them why didn't they swoop in and give Greece some money. Complaining from the outside is just a lazy excuse.


In other news:

DCapAA5V0AE9hht.jpg

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/
Because this is the electorate. They don't decide what their country does.
If the EU continues on that path it all paints itself as a villain.

What attitude exactly? Being bitter about it?
The whole entitlement thing.
 

Kyougar

Member
Because this is the electorate. They don't decide what their country does.
If the EU continues on that path it all paints itself as a villain.


The whole entitlement thing.

you either die as a hero or live long enough to be the villain


Why should the EU care if they are the villain in the UK's eye? They were for the last 30 years, nothing has changed.
 

Theonik

Member
you either die as a hero or live long enough to be the villain


Why should the EU care if they are the villain in the UK's eye? They were for the last 30 years, nothing has changed.
Well the current omnishambles is kinda scaring others from following suit. Let's see how long that lasts though.
 
I mean there was only side which strategy was based on the idea that the other side will crash and implode.

Spoiler

It was not the EU, so give me a break.
 
Because this is the electorate. They don't decide what their country does.
If the EU continues on that path it all paints itself as a villain.
.

What a convenient position to take.
None of the monetary investment and risk (and not even noting or criticizing how their country did nothing to adress / change course "for the better" at the height of the greek crisis) while still waggling their finger at the evil rEU that put their money down for a plan that seems to be ....sort of... working at long last.

There really, honestly was no painless and easy way out of the hole the Greek manouvred their own country into.
 

Theonik

Member
What a convenient position to take.
None of the monetary investment and risk (and not even noting or criticizing how their country did nothing to adress / change course "for the better" at the height of the greek crisis) while still waggling their finger at the evil rEU that put their money down for a plan that seems to be ....sort of... working at long last.

There really, honestly was no painless and easy way out of the hole the Greek manouvred their own country into.
You can keep thinking that. So far it has worked for exactly 0 Eurozone countries and Italian banks almost got torched again after the Brexit vote because nothing was done to address the structural weakness of the EZ.
 

Xando

Member
You can keep thinking that. So far it has worked for exactly 0 Eurozone countries and Italian banks almost got torched again after the Brexit vote because nothing was done to address the structural weakness of the EZ.
You can have your opinion but this is factually untrue if you look at the last year of eurozone economic data.
 
You can keep thinking that. So far it has worked for exactly 0 Eurozone countries and Italian banks almost got torched again after the Brexit vote because nothing was done to address the structural weakness of the EZ.

The Greek ran their own country full speed against the wall by quite frankly, terrible terrible mismanagement and the refusal to adress what's rotten to the core (tax dodging like in a third world country, just utterly rediculous levels of corruption, nepotism and a state government that's bloated beyond belief).

Throwing more central european money at a fundamentally dysfunctional economy does not change these things. The arrogant Greek government (let's not forget their part in escelating things !) had to be forced with cattle prods to make necessary changes.
You seem to be unaware just how fucked up Greece really was.

The bold is blatantly false. The Eurozone is actively recovering and has been for some time now. 2016 was a good year and the last couple "sick men of europe" are back on their feet again or about to be in the near future.
Q1 2017 has seen the eurozone outpacing both the UK and US so far.
 

CrunchyB

Member
Throwing more central european money at a fundamentally dysfunctional economy does not change these things. The arrogant Greek government (let's not forget their part in escelating things !) had to be forced with cattle prods to make necessary changes.
You seem to be unaware just how fucked up Greece really was.

The Greek reforms are taking an eternity. For example, they are still working on the cadaster, which they plan to have ready in 2020. So right now, there is no easy way to determine who owns which lands, which makes calculating the appropriate taxes hard or even impossible.

For reference, Napoleon introduced a comprehensive cadaster for French territories in the early 19th century.

Greece is very far behind.
 

Theonik

Member
The Greek reforms are taking an eternity. For example, they are still working on the cadaster, which they plan to have ready in 2020. So right now, there is no easy way to determine who owns which lands, which makes calculating the appropriate taxes hard or even impossible.

For reference, Napoleon introduced a comprehensive cadaster for French territories in the early 19th century.

Greece is very far behind.
Greece does have a cadastre and has for centuries. The problem is land changes hands quite a lot and land can be claimed after 30 years of use if its original owner does not stop it. (changing ownership in the process)

If the owner does not declare changes in ownership then it is very difficult to keep data up to date. Producing a new comprehensive survey is very expensive and time-consuming effort. It's always hilarious seeing people in these parts talk absolute rubbish then make fun of Brexiteers on the same breath.
 

Faddy

Banned
Greece does have a cadastre and has for centuries. The problem is land changes hands quite a lot and land can be claimed after 30 years of use if its original owner does not stop it. (changing ownership in the process)

If the owner does not declare changes in ownership then it is very difficult to keep data up to date. Producing a new comprehensive survey is very expensive and time-consuming effort. It's always hilarious seeing people in these parts talk absolute rubbish then make fun of Brexiteers on the same breath.

Having an out of date and inaccurate cadastre is about as useful as not having one at all.
 

Theonik

Member
Having an out of date and inaccurate cadastre is about as useful as not having one at all.
That is always the case though. You only do a comprehensive survey every few decades normally. The current survey process has been ongoing since 1994. People do not understand the extent of work that is needed.

Hell, the United Kingdom doesn't have a comprehensive cadastre at all though local maps of ownership do exist though records can be decades and sometimes centuries out of date. A friend of mine was working on a project for the National Library of Wales to digitise some historic cadastral records actually. The whole process costs tons of money.
 

EmiPrime

Member
Hahahahahahaaaaaa *deep breath* Hahahahahaha.

Talking a big game for the British media then getting your bluff called on day one. Good job Davis.
 

Biggzy

Member
Day one and already the UK government capitulated lol.

In all seriousness though, this is a small positive as the EU from day one insisted on phased talks, so less time will be wasted trying to get something that was not forthcoming.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
That's what a minority government does for you. The bluster and entitlement have been replaced with pragmatism. The government is on a knife edge and a moderate backbench revolt would send the country back to the polls.

I don't doubt for one second that if May had her projected 100+ seat majority she would have gone herself and tanked the talks on purpose on day one.
 
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