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'Zelda,' 'Overwatch' and a failure to represent ME and South Asian identity in games

sephi22

Member
Mic.com didn't invent criticism of making every evil character dark-skinned, I've seen that criticism leveled at Disney and cartoons in general for decades. Too bad video games are so immature a medium that they can't handle this level of basic criticism.

Also not every news you disagree with are clickbait.
I'm sorry, but when white people speak on my country/race's behalf and get outraged, that's clickbait for me. The author of this article isn't white but the point still stands. I consider this in the same category as university yoga classes being banned due to oppression or white women wearing saris as cultural appropriation.

Absolute trash tier journalism.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
It's a fucking joke, even Prince of Persia doesn't know the difference between Persia and Arabia.

Ubisoft has gotten better recently, so we'll see how Origins portrays Egypt, but I have no faith in Nintendo.
 

Shredderi

Member
They also fail to portray Torbjörn as a swedish character. There is nothing swedish about the guy. Not his accent and I've never hear him speak anything in Swedish.
 

Daschysta

Member
All of you are missing the point I've been trying to make. It's not just Zelda. It's not the responisibility of Nintendo to solve all of this by making Zelda an alll-encompassing game. That's not the point. The point is that Brown representation in gaming is basic, stereotypical, and appropriated. Zelda is just another game that can be used as an example of exotization and bastarding Brown cultures in its game. There aren't many games that don't do this. It's just strikingly perplexing to me how almost every time a Brown person or culture is shown in a game they gotta immediately be from the magical desert.

I am a brown person. You do realize that Arab people do, essentially, before their expansion come from the desert (The Saudi Penninsula). This issue is a nothingburger and the least of Middle Eastern Peoples problems. Fantasy relies on tableaux and iconography from various cultures to give the illusion of immersion, it isn't the responsibility of a videogame to be a anthropologically identical depiction of any culture, particularly when, in the case of Zelda, I as a brown person you are speaking for, see nothing at all problematic.
 

Prithee Be Careful

Industry Professional
.Assuming that there's been 'failure' to represent a specific ethnic group or culture in a game is to assume it's the job of those developers or publishers to actually do such a thing - the short answer is: 'it's not'.

Thier job is to make great games and while I'd argue any developer deliberately peddling hate speech or discrimination in a game should rightly be called out on that, I don't believe it's the job for games developers to take responsibility for the eduction of their customers.

We wouldn't call them out for not educting people about more traditional subjects like maths and sciences - or for simplifying the nuances of such things for the sake of a functional game - there's no reason they should be especially responsible for cultural, social or political concerns.

If they can do these things - and do them well - while also delivering a great game, then that's awesome and they deserve recognition, but if they choose just to focus on making the game they're really passionate about: on interesting mechanics, core functionality, replay value or whatever... they shouldn't be told they've 'failed' to do something they never set out to do.

I think we should all be more culturally aware and broadly educated, but I think the responsiblity for that falls to policy makers and individuals, not to private organisations, corporates or businesses whose primary concerns are their products, their customers and their shareholders.

Just my opinion.
 
I'm sorry, but when white people speak on my country/race's behalf and get outraged, that's clickbait for me. The author of this article isn't white but the point still stands. I consider this in the same category as university yoga classes being banned due to oppression or white women wearing saris as cultural appropriation.

Absolute trash tier journalism.

So you decide to dismiss the whole article because you dislike white people talking about your culture even though the article's author isn't white? Uh... okay.

Video games will never move forward as a medium if we don't hold it to the same standards every other form of media has been held to for decades. But I guess it's fine for video games to stay as "that thing sad awkward virgin male nerds like" forever.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Egypt is in Africa, mate.

Part of the poorly misrepresented MENA region.

For example, will the game feature a mishmash of South African, Arabian, and Persian stereotypes mashed together, or will they represent ancient Egypt as actually Ancient Egypt.
 

Nabbis

Member
They also fail to portray Torbjörn as a swedish character. There is nothing swedish about the guy. Not his accent and I've never hear him speak anything in Swedish.

Im somewhat torn on this issue. Game developers are hilariously bad at portraying anything beyond their own myopic views of a foreign culture but at the same time i don't believe it's realistic to expect more. For example, out of the hundreds of high profile games in the last few decades that feature Russian culture, practically none of them are even close to the authentic feeling that the Metro games provide. You can't use the racism card in this case, people just simply suck with understanding foreign cultures without deep exposure.
 
Im somewhat torn on this issue. Game developers are hilariously bad at portraying anything beyond their own myopic views of a foreign culture but at the same time i don't believe it's realistic to expect more. For example, out of the hundreds of high profile games in the last few decades that feature Russian culture, practically none of them are even close to the authentic feeling that the Metro games provide.

Having been to Russia, Metro is basically Russia Simulator.
 

scitek

Member
Is it really a common perception that camels = middle east? And like when you have a bunch of giant animal robots, what other animal would you put there that instantly fits there.

giphy.gif
 

Majukun

Member
Mic.com didn't invent criticism of making every evil character dark-skinned, I've seen that criticism leveled at Disney and cartoons in general for decades. Too bad video games are so immature a medium that they can't handle this level of basic criticism.

Also not every news you disagree with are clickbait.

except that while this might be true to disney (didn't check for myself really,not much of a disney person), the moment you make it a trend outside of it you meet with tons of evil guys that are not dark skinned, so what's the solution here,never make an evil character have dark skin ever?
 

IHaveIce

Banned
Picking overwatch as an offender here just for symmetra seems fucking stupid. So because there is no voice line of her speaking in her native tongue means they don't promote diversity?

Maybe she gets hers with the rumored map of hers? I mean there are a lot of regions represented in OW and pretty darn well if you ask me.
 
Egypt is in Africa, mate.

Egypt is in Africa geographically, but politically, culturally and once Islam took over, historically, it very much has become a part of the Middle East, being much more intertwined with the Arabic and Mashriq regions than it did with other parts of Africa.
 
Egypt is in Africa geographically, but politically, culturally and once Islam took over, historically, it very much has become a part of the Middle East, being much more intertwined with the Arabic and Mashriq regions than it did with other parts of Africa.


What about Tunisia, Morroco, Algeria ?
 
except that while this might be true to disney (didn't check for myself really,not much of a disney person), the moment you make it a trend outside of it you meet with tons of evil guys that are not dark skinned, so what's the solution here,never make an evil character have dark skin ever?

The solution is to have heroic dark skinned characters too. If the only dark skinned characters in your story are the evil ones, and this happens not only in your story but hundreds of other stories all across different types of media, then that's an example of systematic racism. But if you have a wide variety of dark skinned characters, then no one will blink if you make one of them a villain.

It's the same thing with female representation. The problem isn't having a sexy woman in your story, but that the only women we see in most stories (especially in video games, anyway) are sexy. If you have a variety of women in your game, with different body types, personalities and stories, no one will really care if one or two of them are sexy (from a straight male point of view).
 

Shadoken

Member
So you decide to dismiss the whole article because you dislike white people talking about your culture even though the article's author isn't white? Uh... okay.

Video games will never move forward as a medium if we don't hold it to the same standards every other form of media has been held to for decades. But I guess it's fine for video games to stay as "that thing sad awkward virgin male nerds like" forever.

The author is calling out Game devs for having a stereotypical representation. When the Author himself has done the exact same thing for some of the points mentioned in the article.
Like the author is literally saying "Hey this character Is from India yet she only speaks English , Dont those ignorant game devs know all people from India speak Indian". (when there is no such thing , every state has its own language and English is actually a very common language)


So yes if some ignorant person is talking about his culture , and calling out game devs as being the ignorant ones. I think he has valid reason to be upset with the article. Its what happens when people use another country/culture as a tool to go into an outrage without even bothering to understand that culture.
 

Shredderi

Member
Im somewhat torn on this issue. Game developers are hilariously bad at portraying anything beyond their own myopic views of a foreign culture but at the same time i don't believe it's realistic to expect more. For example, out of the hundreds of high profile games in the last few decades that feature Russian culture, practically none of them are even close to the authentic feeling that the Metro games provide. You can't use the racism card in this case, people just simply suck with understanding foreign cultures without deep exposure.

I get why things are like they are, but it's like they didn't even try with Torbjörn. They put so much more effort into other characters. Even Symmetra has her accent.
 

llehuty

Member
Ermm, how can Zelda fail representing a ME community when they aren't trying in the first place? They are doing their own thing, with the all female society, the warrior training and the comerce focus. Like sure, they have brown-black skin and live in the desert and use cimitars, but people are just trying to hard to fit them into one real life race when it's not supposed to.

Like, we could argue that Sheikahs are japanese because of the clothing and architecture,but that's pretty much it.

The game delivers diversity like not many other games do, but still get backlash for nothing.
 

Majukun

Member
The solution is to have heroic dark skinned characters too. If the only dark skinned characters in your story are the evil ones, and this happens not only in your story but hundreds of other stories all across different types of media, then that's an example of systematic racism. But if you have a wide variety of dark skinned characters, then no one will blink if you make one of them a villain.

It's the same thing with female representation. The problem isn't having a sexy woman in your story, but that the only women we see in most stories (especially in video games, anyway) are sexy. If you have a variety of women in your game, with different body types, personalities and stories, no one will really care if one or two of them are sexy (from a straight male point of view).

i'm pretty sure you have plenty of dark skinned good guys too if you are expanding the critique to all of media in existance..and even if you are just talking about videogames,i think it was pointed out in this thread how now we also have our fair share of good non-caucasian guys
 
i'm pretty sure you have plenty of dark skinned good guys too if you are expanding the critique to all of media in existance..and even if you are just talking about videogames,i think it was pointed out in this thread how now we also have how fair share of good non-caucasian guys

I mean on an individual basis, not critiquing every form of media together as a monolith.
 
i'm pretty sure you have plenty of dark skinned good guys too if you are expanding the critique to all of media in existance..and even if you are just talking about videogames,i think it was pointed out in this thread how now we also have how fair share of good non-caucasian guys

There's also to note that in SF, even though Evil Ryu and Ken are darker skinned, there also are several light-skinned villains in the series, such as Juri, FANG, M. Bison or Vega, while there are darker skinned heroes like Dee Jay, Dudley, Rashid, or Dhalsim.
 

mclem

Member
All of you are missing the point I've been trying to make. It's not just Zelda. It's not the responisibility of Nintendo to solve all of this by making Zelda an alll-encompassing game. That's not the point. The point is that Brown representation in gaming is basic, stereotypical, and appropriated. Zelda is just another game that can be used as an example of exotization and bastarding Brown cultures in its game. There aren't many games that don't do this. It's just strikingly perplexing to me how almost every time a Brown person or culture is shown in a game they gotta immediately be from the magical desert.

It boils down to a catch-22 I commented on when the discussion was about Dishonored 2, and Feminist Frequency making a suggestion that perhaps it'd be interesting if the game was just about Emily - so a similar discussion but here framed around gender representation:


I think the catch-22, for me, is the point where the question shifts from the general case to a specific case. I completely agree that we need more female perspectives in gaming, and more games with exclusively female lead characters; those lead to storylines that are somewhat underrepresented.

But when it switches to a specific example, I disagree; It'll ultimately depend on the story they're looking to tell, so it's hard to make too many assumptions right now, but in principle I don't have a problem with Bethesda making this choice in the best interests of the game they wish to develop.

That's the problem, and I'm struggling to reconcile it satisfactorily. There are more stories out there that should be told that are being neglected, and that's bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you should force a story into that mould. In Bethesda's case, it's rather dependent on how well they make Emily a plausible and individual character, rather than Corvo-sans-Blink.

The solution I'd like to say is that companies should continue to make the stories they wish to make, and new developers should spring up to fill those gaps. But that's its own problem when money comes into the fray; can such titles get the funding they need to be viable projects when commercialism becomes a necessary consideration?

It's a tough one. I agree with FF in the general sense, disagree in the specific sense, but in doing so also have to concede that unless there are some specific pushes in that direction, the general sense won't change.

My point being that FF's views on Dishonored 2 and this piece's points about Zelda are valid, but I don't think either game is doing the wrong thing, as such - the problem is that they're treading what would be a pretty reasonable middle ground if representation was truly balanced across the industry as a whole - but because it's not they're singled out as not going far enough.

Hence the catch-22: It's absolutely right to point these out as examples of not going far enough, but people get defensive because they're still doing representation better than many other games, which can hugely muddy the conversation. Representation as a whole still isn't really enough, by any means; in isolation, these titles would probably be fine, but viewed as part of a whole, it's still got an awfully long way to go - but the issue gets bogged down by the fact that the individual titles that make up the examples are heading in the right direction.

(As an aside, how was Emily - as a character - in the end? I haven't yet played Dishonored 2)
 

Kinyou

Member
Picking overwatch as an offender here just for symmetra seems fucking stupid. So because there is no voice line of her speaking in her native tongue means they don't promote diversity?

Maybe she gets hers with the rumored map of hers? I mean there are a lot of regions represented in OW and pretty darn well if you ask me.
That's honestly the part that screams clickbait about the article to me. He puts overwatch in the headline but then dedicates barely two sentences to it. Let alone that it's a minor grievance that can actually makes sense if you look at the languages spoken in India. I'd say it's fair to assume that he only brings it up because it's a big, popular game.
 

dose

Member
Idk why you guys come to these threads and post the same post. It's really amusing.
This is the first time I've posted about this, what are you on about?
Also, please tell us all why a fantasy game that contains things that don't/can't exist should in any way represent real life?
 

Blues1990

Member
They also fail to portray Torbjörn as a swedish character. There is nothing swedish about the guy. Not his accent and I've never hear him speak anything in Swedish.

Outside from the various weird Swedish proverbs & sayings ("They're like a cat walking around hot porridge!") and how several of his skins are taken from Swedish words (Tre Kronor - Three Crowns, Plommon - Plum), fair point. I get it. Really. Especially the accent.

But you have to understand that it's hard to make a character be of obvious nationality without using things people already associate with that nationality, like accents. Then there's the fact that it can be hard to find people within a realistic range with the voice you want and the accent you need who desire to do the job.
 
Ermm, how can Zelda fail representing a ME community when they aren't trying in the first place? They are doing their own thing, with the all female society, the warrior training and the comerce focus. Like sure, they have brown-black skin and live in the desert and use cimitars, but people are just trying to hard to fit them into one real life race when it's not supposed to.

Like, we could argue that Sheikahs are japanese because of the clothing and architecture,but that's pretty much it.

The game delivers diversity like not many other games do, but still get backlash for nothing.

Yeah, it feels like outrage for the sake of outrage.
 

Metal B

Member
Like, we could argue that Sheikahs are japanese because of the clothing and architecture,but that's pretty much it.
The Sheikahs are designed in a very stereotypical Japanese way. I bet nobody from Nintendo even set foot on the Japanese Island!
 

nOoblet16

Member
Believe it or not, English is the de facto lingua franca over much of India, and it is used as a language in government, business and education.
Hindi is the only other official language accepted for government usage, but the southern states of India opposes its use.
India has no official national language.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India#English

I live in a country with lots of Indians, but I'm not Indian.

Yea there's no national language but Hindi and English are official languages as designated by the constitution of India.
English (and even Hindi to an extent) are the lingua franca when someone from north speaks to someone from south or east and vice versa.
 
I hate when some people act like tropes are always a bad thing. It's caricature in a fucking fantasy game for immersion's and entertainment's sake. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not malicious at all. >_<'
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
It's a giant mechanical camel because camels live in the desert, not exclusively to the middle east. They're not the only ones with a fictional language of their own, they're the only ones that use that fictional language. There's also Sheikah and Hylian in the game. Is it racist that the bird people dungeon is a bird?

I would have preferred to have them dressed as Eskimos



/jk
 

Leezard

Member
I thought he's a dwarf?

He's definitely supposed to be Swedish. His skin names/colors are named with Swedish words, for example Blå for Blue.

Blizzard just made a terrible job of it considering several characters speak at least some lines in their native languages but Torb does not.
 
I just read the article... and I really am disappointed to find it so lacking. I think it's a topic that should be discussed and critiqued more often, but a couplr of the examples the author chose are poor at best. Overwatch was the most egregious to me: 2 sentences admonishing the game for not having Symmetra speak in her "native" language is ridiculous. It is almost more racist to presume she wouldn't speak perfect English, especially since so many Indians do. Wouldn't having her speak Hindi serve to further the "otherfication" of her character?

I also think it's really short sighted to call out BotW. The Gerudo are one of the most complex and realized cultures in gaming. They take inherent prejudices about "exotic" cultures and turn them on their head by having the characters in the town be unique, well realized people, each with their own identity.

And Vah Naboris is clearly a Bactrian camel, which would make it a Gobi desert camel.

My problem with articles like this, is when they are not well written or rely on poor examples they only harm the original argument. As seen in this thread, and my own post, so many people hop on to say "These are bad examples because [lots of reasons]" that no one is even discussing the thesis of the article. And it's a shame because we really should be talking about how to improve and modernize the portrayal of MENA people and cultures in our media.
 

daxy

Member
The main thing being grossly misrepresented is the work of Said. For one, the BotW Gerudo 'representing' Middle Eastern cultures is about as accurate as the Hylians representing European cultures. Who is the Occident? The Sheikah? The Hylians? Which European identity do they represent? The elements that the game takes inspiration from are so indistinguishably mashed together that you can't reasonably make an argument that it's failing at representing a culture, because this is not ever something the game sought out to do. There is no inherent or implicit struggle or relationship of superiority between an Occidental figure and the Oriental representation in BotW. There are clichés, but these do not serve create a negative 'otherness'. The idea that what's being depicted is even remotely representative is the more egregious suggestion here since it's painfully obvious that the game does not seek to represent but to invent. The makers are set up to fail because it's evident that they did not seek to create these relational linkages to real cultures at all, I believe. At most, there are characters in the game who are fascinated by the Gerudo because of their secrecy. But if this is the most important measure, then the Gerudo could also be partly Amazonian or from Eastern Asia if we were to judge by all the clichés employed. Ocarina is perhaps a better argument but I haven't played that in years. I have little experience with the others, apart from Overwatch and, with respect to the latter, I do agree that it's got issues with representation to which we can relate Said's arguments far better.
 

Jumeira

Banned
So which Middle Eastern culture is the matriarchy taken from? Or does one just pick and choose those elements of a fictional culture that fit to a cliché of a real one and igonre the rest so the argument fits?
It's actually resembles a part of middle eastern society, where women have thier own clubs, organisation and regions where no men allowed, of course it's shaped to fit Zelda fantasy world, but I instantly saw the Arabic inspiration. The shape of the swords, the veil and belly dancer outfits, the heavy display of merchants and bazaars all tied by Middle Eastern inspired music, there isn't a better fit from the real world. That Savvak seems like a play on Salaam but that maybe me drawing my own conclusion after everything else being so heavily contextualised by the game.

But if this is the most important measure, then the Gerudo could also be partly Amazonian or from Eastern Asia

Not really, theres a lot of ideas that seems inspired directly be ME history and people, or at least seems be the strongest link. The Gerudo are traders, have brown skin, large noses (an obvious sterotype), live in the desert and hold strict laws, it's quite suggestive even if it's fantasy. I'm not offended, I'm actually happy they displayed strong powerful middle eastern women.
 

guggnichso

Banned
Isn't the representation of the Hylians also an amalgamation of european dark ages stereotypes, what with their knights and castles and horses?
 

Alo0oy

Banned
I just read the article... and I really am disappointed to find it so lacking. I think it's a topic that should be discussed and critiqued more often, but a couplr of the examples the author chose are poor at best. Overwatch was the most egregious to me: 2 sentences admonishing the game for not having Symmetra speak in her "native" language is ridiculous. It is almost more racist to presume she wouldn't speak perfect English, especially since so many Indians do. Wouldn't having her speak Hindi serve to further the "otherfication" of her character?

Oh no, the person calling out the racism is the real racist, am I on r/KiA?
 

Horp

Member
Then we have Torbjörn, which not only doesn't have any swedish voice lines, but also has a scottish (kinda) accent instead of swedish. The ONLY references to sweden apart from his sweden-coloured summer games outfit are the IKEA-references over and over.
He also has strange "fantasy-dwarf"-like over exaggerated features along with a overweight body (is there some message here about out of shape swedes (hint: no there isnt)).

What I'm saying is that in Overwatch pretty much all (if not exactly all) characters are stereotypes and often incorrect, missing-the-mark kind of stereotypes, cooked up by american designers with seemingly little interest in giving any kind of actual representation of the cultures/nationalities the characters are supposed to originate from.

This isn't a good thing of course (but not horrible either), but SA/ME are not in any way singled out.
 
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