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[TheChocolateWar]

You don't know the actual scientific definitions and how they are different therefore science is wrong? The nice thing is science doesn't bow to cultural ignorance. Your overly simplistic system doesn't even account for intersex individual let alone the issue of gender.

Fine. Give me the scientific definition of a Male and a Female, and I will point to you a biased concept of male and female. I am for gender ambiguity, because I find any kind of attempt to ascribe a gender type to myself based on a set of characteristics to be unfair, rude, and biased.

 

[TCRS]

That's changing even right now, so you're wrong.

I'm guessing by your posts that you spend a lot of time in transgender circles whether on the internet or RL, so any little news about this can come off as a big victory and change. let me tell you: in the real world it's really not. hardly anyone even knows about it. sure active discrimination might be decreasing and awareness increasing but the definitions of a boy and a girl are not changing. not really.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Simple; How do you define a class of things? By specific characteristics. I have only ever used the term gender and sex as synonyms. Any other characteristic you use to separate gender and sex aside from' Whatever I feel like saying" is rude and shows selection bias. What makes a male a male besides their sex? Liking sports? Rude. Liking red meat? Rude. Liking flannel? Rude. So what defines a man other than biological sex. And frame this without being biased and rude. And who are you to define whether I or anyone else is a male based on specific characteristics?

You're still talking about sex while we're over here talking about gender. No one cares what you've always done, it doesn't matter if you use terms incorrectly to the rest of us.

I'm guessing by your posts that you spend a lot of time in transgender circles whether on the internet or RL, so any little news about this can come off as a big victory and change. let me tell you: in the real world it's really not. hardly anyone even knows about it. sure active discrimination might be decreasing and awareness increasing but the definitions of a boy and a girl are not changing. not really.

I don't know a single transgender person (at least any that have admitted it to me). There's clearly more people now than 20 years ago who separate gender and sex even if it isn't the majority.

The LGBT community is very much the real world too, by the way.

 

[sikkinixx]

That's why I just say "folks" or "people" now when I sub in schools nowadays. No sense in getting in shit.

 

[Espada]

There teems "Boy" and "Girl" will forever be linked with "Male" and "Female". That's never going to change and I'm not sure it's a fight worth fighting.

That's changing because of acknowledgement of intersex people in society, but you're right in that the association between boy/girl and male/female will remain very strong simply because the overwhelming majority of the population identify as a gender that matches their physiology.

Where I think this school's effort goes too far is in allowing teachers to take a dump on children who identify as a boy or girl. This is the worst way of being inclusive. You teach them acceptance of others who are not like the majority, instead of acting like a kid can't be a boy and part of the purple penguins.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

You're still talking about sex while we're over here talking about gender. No one cares what you've always done, it doesn't matter if you use terms incorrectly to the rest of us.

I am using them as synonyms as a means to promote the idea that any attempt to define gender is rude and biased. Nomenclature works on providing a series of characteristics that define a thing. I want to know what the characteristics of male and female are, gender wise, in the scientific system.

 

[CornBurrito]

And this is just disastrously stupid of them. Parents will rebel instantly. And if you don't have the parents in board you might as well not even try since what is said in the household will always have the predominate influence on the child.


This whole plan sorta reminds me of those who argue that the solution to racism is to pretend to be colorblind and act like race and racism doesn't exist.

IIRC peers are bigger influences on behavior than parents.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

How about class? That's what my elementary teachers used to say.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

This seems silly and unnecessary. Too pc imo.

I went to school and was separated by gender on many occasions. What's the big deal?

And to instead use purple penguins? This seems like almost parody levels of ridiculous.

If I'm missing something here someone please let me know? Because this seems like the dumbest thing I've read all morning

 

[opticalmace]

IIRC peers are bigger influences on behavior than parents.

I could probably believe that. Source?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I am using them as synonyms as a means to promote the idea that any attempt to define gender is rude and biased. Nomenclature works on providing a series of characteristics that define a thing. I want to know what the characteristics of male and female are, gender wise, in the scientific system.

People keep telling you that gender and sex aren't synonyms and that gender isn't about biology.

You keep trying to fit a circle and a square into a square whole and you keep expecting us to tell you why one doesn't fit.

 

[kirblar]

I am genuinely curious what the transgender rate is among children, because that seems like a concept that is far too developed for a child. To me, children preferring things that are generally prescribed to the opposite gender does not mean they all of a sudden have decided for themselves to switch gender. So, I'd like to know what the criteria are, and what the research in that area says for individuals who are not even at puberty yet.

When dealing with younger children, it's normally a very conservative approach w/ drugs/hormones/etc in order to avoid issues with "false positives" (like a guy who's just feminine and might get into drag later in life) while letting them live as the gender the kid is trying to express. If they need more time they can interrupt/delay puberty to try and avoid having the opposite sex characteristics develop.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

People keep telling you that gender and sex aren't synonyms and that gender isn't about biology.

You keep trying to fit a circle and a square into a square whole and you keep expecting us to tell you why one doesn't fit.

People keep telling me that, but people are refusing to provide me with solid definitions of gender identity. Give me a solid, scientific definition of gender. I dislike the very concept of gender because I find it to be rude. I dislike the idea of anyone trying to label me based on a series of social and cultural characteristics. I am fine with objective things like biology being used to define me (sex), but not gender.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm guessing by your posts that you spend a lot of time in transgender circles whether on the internet or RL, so any little news about this can come off as a big victory and change. let me tell you: in the real world it's really not. hardly anyone even knows about it. sure active discrimination might be decreasing and awareness increasing but the definitions of a boy and a girl are not changing. not really.

"There are more of us, and in my world, we don't care about that" isn't an appropriate rebuttal to anything.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

This seems a bit silly but harmless.

Like Nebraska in general.

As the parent of a color-blind child with a severe case of sphenisciphobia, I'm sure glad I don't live in Nebraska.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

People keep telling me that, but people are refusing to provide me with solid definitions of gender identity. Give me a solid, scientific definition of gender. I dislike the very concept of gender because I find it to be rude. I dislike the idea of anyone trying to label me based on a series of social and cultural characteristics. I am fine with objective things like biology being used to define me (sex), but not gender.

Gender is how you identify yourself, not how others identify you, so what you're describing is exactly how the word is being used.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Gender is how you identify yourself, not how others identify you, so what you're describing is exactly how the word is being used.

So gender is whatever I want it to be? That violates the very principles of nomenclature. If you want a word to have any meaning, you must define it beyond "whatever I want it to be". That is why I prefer the concept of gender neutrality. The term gender, to me, is vacuous because no one can even define it to me. Define it without offending my own identity, and I will happily accept it.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So gender is whatever I want it to be? That violates the very principles of nomenclature. If you want a word to have any meaning, you must define it beyond "whatever I want it to be". That is why I prefer the concept of gender neutrality. The term gender, to me, is vacuous because no one can even define it to me. Define it without offending my own identity, and I will happily accept it.

Language is fluid, too.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553807870/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Kinyou]

Instead of boys and girls, just say vaginas and penises

 

[Cizeta-Moroder]

No it isn't. Gender isn't a biological construct at all.

But sex is. If the words used to refer to sex are ruled out as non-inclusive, the ability to refer to sex is hindered.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Language is fluid, too.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553807870/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Language is fluid, but language must mean something. I have gotten into this debate with many-a-linguistics majors. You can't just waive your hands and make up words with superfluous definitions. I believe I am a WOOBLY WOO WOO because I say I am a woobly woo woo. That is not how language works. You must define a woobly woo woo. A woobly woo woo is X, Y, and Z. Otherwise you break speech down into worthless emotivisms.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

"There are more of us, and in my world, we don't care about that" isn't an appropriate rebuttal to anything.

Yeah that quote is a terrible way to put it. Although in a way he is right. Societal norms take a while to change.

This just seems unnecessary to me.

 

[TCRS]

"There are more of us, and in my world, we don't care about that" isn't an appropriate rebuttal to anything.

I wasn't talking about caring, I was talking about what is actually happening. You can twist it and turn it however you want: the definitions aren't changing. I just don't see it in any aspect of everyday life.

 

[manfestival]

Instead of boys and girls, just say vaginas and penises

This is probably the best option considering that there can be no denial. We need to also change bathrooms to pictures of penises and vaginas so that there no longer "confusion"

 

[Kano on the Phone]

So gender is whatever I want it to be? That violates the very principles of nomenclature. If you want a word to have any meaning, you must define it beyond "whatever I want it to be". That is why I prefer the concept of gender neutrality. The term gender, to me, is vacuous because no one can even define it to me. Define it without offending my own identity, and I will happily accept it.

Are you making me do cursory research for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

But sex is. If the words used to refer to sex are ruled out an non-inclusive, the ability to refer to sex is hindered.

No one is ruling out those words. They're just not using them to define gender.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Language is fluid, but language must mean something. I have gotten into this debate with many-a-linguistics majors. You can't just waive your hands and make up words with superfluous definitions. I believe I am a WOOBLY WOO WOO because I say I am a woobly woo woo. That is not how language works. You must define a woobly woo woo. A woobly woo woo is X, Y, and Z. Otherwise you break speech down into worthless emotivisms.

Perhaps the rules will just need to be wiggly until we can all settle on something. After all, look at what the word "queer" has been through in just a decade.

I wasn't talking about caring, I was talking about what is actually happening. You can twist it and turn it however you want: the definitions aren't changing. I just don't see it in any aspect of everyday life.

I never see a gay marriage, but it doesn't stop me from knowing it's right.

 

[TCRS]

I never see a gay marriage, but it doesn't stop me from knowing it's right.

Not sure what that has to do with my post but okay.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Not sure what that has to do with my post but okay.

Just because you don't see it in your everyday life doesn't mean it's not important or right. And you do see it in your everyday life if you use Facebook anyway, since they allow completely customizable gender descriptions with a basic set of preferred pronouns. They even just killed a proposed "real name" policy because it opens people up to potential abuse.

 

[Zomba13]

So I'll go ahead and ask since I didn't see the article.

How do bathrooms work?

If you like to pee standing up or if you like to pee sitting down.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

This is probably the best option considering that there can be no denial. We need to also change bathrooms to pictures of penises and vaginas so that there no longer "confusion"

Again, what about intersex people?

People need to wake up and listen to the music already:

Nature. Is. Messy.

 

[aly]

What are instances where kids are split by gender in early education and why? Like I said earlier, I'm still struggling to think of when and why you'd say "Hey kids, line up as boys and girls" or even the "corrected" way of lining up by a mutual interest

I remember for us it was to go to the bathroom. It was also a way to keep talking down when going to lunch or assembly, since most boys were friends with other boys/ girls with girls. So lining up by boy-girl-boy-girl made it less likely you would sit by a friend and chatter away.

 

[stufte]

If you like to pee standing up or if you like to pee sitting down.

Sweet, now the fucked up little boys purple penguins will have a private place to expose themselves to my daughters purple penguins.

 

[TCRS]

Just because you don't see it in your everyday life doesn't mean it's not important or right. And you do see it in your everyday life if you use Facebook anyway, since they allow completely customizable gender descriptions with a basic set of preferred pronouns. They even just killed a proposed "real name" policy because of trans activism, since it opens people up to potential abuse.

Well in that case I definitely disagree. As I said earlier I don't think the world can't revolve around the a tiny subset of the population. According to this transgender people don't even make up 1% of the population in the US.

 

[flkraven]

This is really cool! However, why can't they just call them 'kids' or 'everyone', although the purple penguin name is cute.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Well in that case I definitely disagree. As I said earlier I don't think the world can revolve around the a tiny subset of the population. According to this transgender people don't even make up 1% of the population.

1 in 2000 people are intersex:

Also, 1 in 2000 people are intersex, so they can't be dismissed as a statistical anomaly, which I know people like to do.

http://www.isna.org/faq/ten_myths/rare
http://www.iwgregorio.com/2014/09/13/5-myths-about-intersex-debunked/

Intersex people are more common than redheads, and there are more intersex people than Jewish people in the world.

Also, the world is still revolving around the gender binary, not a tiny subset of the population. Children learn positive associations with personal identity, and we lose nothing.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Well in that case I definitely disagree. As I said earlier I don't think the world can revolve around the a tiny subset of the population. According to this transgender people don't even make up 1% of the population in the US.

How many people have to be affected in order for us to change anything that harms absolutely no one in your world?

 

[JJDinomite]

So how many years from now do we start pretending that penises and vaginas don't exist altogether? I'm guessing around 10.

 

[Jakoo]

Let's just compromise and call them all brats.

 

[stufte]

So how many years from now do we start pretending that penises and vaginas don't exist altogether? I'm guessing around 10.

Sex ed should be fascinating.

 

[Gleethor]

So how many years from now do we start pretending that penises and vaginas don't exist altogether? I'm guessing around 10.

ah, a good ol fashioned slippery slope.

 

[JJDinomite]

Wait someone replace this with a purple penguin

 

[MIMIC]

The teachers were also given a handout created by the Center for Gender Sanity, which explains to them that “Gender identity . . . can’t be observed or measured, only reported by the individual,” and an infographic called “The Genderbred Person,” which was produced by www.ItsPronouncedMetroSexual.com.

This is like saying "I don't see race, only people". No, you don't. Your brain doesn't work like that.

The intent is good, but the approach is beyond ridiculous. Being inclusive doesn't mean you have to ignore reality. It's one thing to teach/learn about new things, but quite another to do away with what we already know.

 

[cavemancolton]

That's really dumb.

Say kids/children.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

This is like saying "I don't see race, only people". No, you don't. Your brain doesn't work like that.

The intent is good, but the approach is beyond ridiculous. Being inclusive doesn't mean you have to ignore reality.

Can someone edit the thread title to include "gender and sex are not the same thing" just so we don't have to keep correcting this?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

That's really dumb.

Say kids/children.

They will.

I think a lot of you are only reading the headline and not reading the article, which makes it clear the context is that this is in a guidebook that lays out obvious examples for people.

The actual document is even linked in the OP, for any of you who actually want to read a thing before calling it dumb.

 

[PBalfredo]

So has boy and girl officially become purely gender terms, and no longer mean young male/female?

 

[Raptomex]

We can't say anything anymore. Everything offends everybody. Hilarious.

 

[rexor0717]

I think the argument that gender is entirely a social construct is strange. I understand that gender and sex are not the same thing. If gender is what you identify as and sex is biological, you are still recognizing the existence of male, female or somewhere inbetween. Whether it is sex or gender, there are qualities that fall on a spectrum with male in one direction and female in the other. Yes, some people are intersex, some people are transgender. These all based around the concept of male and female. You cannot be transgender without gender. You cannot be intersex without sex.

What would be more useful than denying the existence of gender would to be more open with use of pronouns. The vast majority of people are either a he or a she, but lets bring more pronouns into the fold to accommodate those who aren't at either end of the spectrum. Calling kids purple penguins isn't doing anyone any good because you aren't going to be calling people that, teach them useful ways to be inclusive.

 

[Orayn]

So has boy and girl officially become purely gender terms, and no longer mean young male/female?

Some people don't consider themselves male or female.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

We can't say anything anymore. Everything offends everybody. Hilarious.

People have been saying this since the dawn of language, and we're all fine.

I feel like some of GAF doesn't even realize how Fox News we get at the smallest sign of a necessary change in our lifestyles. Some of these reactions feel like the sort of shit Jon Stewart puts on a montage on his show.