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[Kai Dracon]

This sort of thing always comes across as "Experts suggest asking people to stop fighting instead of shooting back at them can end war."

Well shit, if it was THAT easy why didn't anyone say so sooner.

Sure, you catch more flies with honey, but the problem is there's a whole lot of flies. Right now, a powerful and popular narrative a lot of white people have latched onto is that the word racism itself causes racism - not even being mean to someone by saying they're racist. Just talking about the concept in the abstract makes people think about it and boo hoo, causes racism.

How exactly do you unpack that, while in the meantime being morally obligated to move as quickly as possible to fight against embedded racially biased attitudes that lead to real problems, real suffering, death, and misery? It's nice to say be nice to people, but at some point somebody's feelings may have to get hurt too.

 

[Baroquemantic]

The problem is that lots of white people (or people in position of power who are blind to it) perceive the former as being the latter, because of their fragility, as the studies in the article also points out.

So when you hear "I was called a racist!!!" it can also sometimes mean that the person in question was just challenged in her/his political opinion in a somewhat less incendiary manner.

Exactly this.

 

[Eidan]

To think, if only black people had just been nicer to white people. We could have solved racism decades ago!

 

[Croatoan]

Intersectionality is racism? What's your definition of intersectionality?

Intersectionality covers the many ways in which we exist as multi-modal identities across class, race, sexuality, age, bodies, religion, language, and so on. It's not necessarily normative, it's just a description of how we exist and if we ignore the intersecting ways we exist we lose out the specific modalities in the unique experiences of individuals.

Is it not Intersectional Feminism, aka Intersectionality, that says racism requires power over another to apply?

I soundly reject this idea. Racism is hating someone, or feeling superior to them, because of their skin color.

 

[Bunta]

So it's the white rural population that actually needs safe spaces and thinks words hurt?

ok

No? If you're going to convince someone of something, you don't insult them.

For example, internal auditors. They go into departments and audit operational processes at times. More than likely, they find issues either caused by design flaws in the process or someone not doing their job correctly, etc. Do they tell the department personnel they suck at their job and keep pointing out everything negative? No. They let them know about opportunities for improvement while sticking to more positive language. Internal auditors would get no where with auditees without the correct framing of observations and recommendations.

 

[shintoki]

Half of me is like, well if you want to be a spade, calling you one and considering your feelings is the least of my worries.

The other half is, I would like to win over the populace.

 

[DerangedHermit]

I Already have? They know my beliefs and likely wouldn't have voted for trump if a supreme court seat wasn't up for grabs.

Not one of them is racist, btw. Not even a single drop of it.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

To think, if only black people had just been nicer to white people. We could have solved racism decades ago!

This is the sentiment that makes my blood boil. Ever since post election I've been burning by this "unity" narrative.

Burning in hell

 

[SkeptiMism]

I had to paraphrase the title because it was too long.

Research says there are ways to reduce racial bias. Calling people racist isn’t one of them.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

I'll confess I didn't read the full article yet (getting on it), but wasn't that research talked about on the first quote proved to be total bullshit? At least some very similar sounding research was.

Oh well, answering for myself. Apparently not this time.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016...ransgender-issues-can-change-their-prejudices

However, it still needs a lot more research.

Anyway, I mostly agree, but it's important to remember that one shouldn't blame people who are tired of doing it. On the other hand, the people who are tired of of it shouldn't dismiss the idea as a whole. For example..

Its about time we start thinking about how the racist feels.

.. this is just reductionist nonsense. Though I can understand where it comes from too (the frustration with the perception of people just focusing on the racists instead of the actual victims - I say perception here because while I do admit that it does happen in the case of some people way too much, I still believe that some of it is also confirmation bias), maybe it would be good idea to keep it out from this thread, since OP is pretty clearly serious and backs it up with a study.

Counter the study if you wish (it's certainly not perfect), but keep that reductionist nonsense out or reserve it to people who actually say that.

Why should good people have to bend over backwards to get racists to not think like assholes? It's really not rocket science to figure out that discrimination is a bad thing.

Ironically, this is the same argument bigots use in other things, such as about educating and assimiliting muslims to our culture. I've ran into it myself too in these forums. The discussion was about the bannings of burka somewhere, and there were some people who thought it was a good idea. My point was that even though burka is very much patriarchal and I would prefer to see it gone someday, banning it is the wrong thing to do, besides being just fucking stupid. Educating muslims and showing them the freedom of our culture is the way to get rid of it.

But other people questioned why it is our responsibility. Why would we have to educate them, instead of the onus being on them to stop their patriarchal ways?

I feel that was very much missing the point. It's not really our responsibility, but if you want change, then that's what you do. You take the higher ground and do things yourself.

 

[EdibleKnife]

It's a very simple answer. You appear you don't want to hear it.

Let's boil this down to two binary choices:

1) Call people racists.
2) Educate people on the effects of systemic racism, using statistics and studies which prove it.

What do you think is a more effective tool to enact change? Or do you simply not give a shit?

I'm shocked you can suggest people who are frustrated, who HAVE to spend their lives as exemplars for their minority group for the sake of peace let alone their own survival, somehow "don't give a shit" because they've decided they've had enough. My whole life as a black man, my existance as a pansexual individual, is fundamentally about me giving a shit. I've spent 28 years being my best self for the sake of my own protection and I and many others still get Trump, Steve Bannon, and KKK rallies for all that effort. Don't act like I or anyone else in a marginalized group is somehow part of the problem because we get angry or snippy and call a spade a spade when we deal with arguments we've dealt with our entire lives. Stop begging for our complete obedience in being gentle with people in a society that continually manhandles us.

 

[watershed]

In educational settings I've seen words like privilege, fragility, systemic racism, implicit bias, and others literally change how people view themselves, others, and society. Racism shouldn't become a taboo word going forward. Especially not in a country that elects Donald Trump.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I'm lightweight disgusted now

 

[Vincent Alexander]

You guys suffer from the same exact issue that these people have from Day 1.


Why the FUCK do I have to prove I deserve treatment and respect like every other human being in the world due to something I had 100% NO CONTROL over?

Nobody can fucking answer the fucking question. Everyone talks those bullshit circles around it.

The question has already been answered---you don't have to. As simple as that.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I agree with the premise of this article if the person being confronted is jobless/underemployed and hopeless, struggling to get by essentially. Because struggling to survive makes it feel as if the world is against you. I do not agree if the person is a well off baby boomer. The viewpoint they hold is pure entitlement and or bitterness towards others not like them (i.e., cultural purity) at that point.

 

[therealist]

Because from personal experience it doesn't work. I've been doing what this article says my entire life and it doesn't work. So you guys can waste your time doing it but I'm not.

That's your personal experience and yet this article suggests otherwise. You asked a question initially about why you shouldn't call people racists, the article tells you why you shouldn't.

If you disagree with the findings in the article, then expand on why you think it's wrong.

 

[n00bsauce87]

It's a very simple answer. You appear you don't want to hear it.

Let's boil this down to two binary choices:

1) Call people racists.
2) Educate people on the effects of systemic racism, using statistics and studies which prove it.

What do you think is a more effective tool to enact change? Or do you simply not give a shit?

Well friend, you skipped a step, the step the person mention in your quote. How do you convince a minority to engage with racists? I think it's okay to not want to interact with people, places, or things that might make you (or has made) a victim based on race. It's messed up to want to force them to fight against it.

 

[Maxim726X]

You don't seem to understand that these people think Obama is Kenyan.

What the fuck are statistics really gonna do when the worst of them would spit on me in the presence.

No man, I don't think you're really understanding.
For you this is a discussion, but many others this shit is our lives. Ive seen people lose opportunities over shit like this, Ive read stories of people who lose their lives.

I won't apologize to you or anyone else to give anyone who portrays this behavior a good ol pat on the back and "it'll be alright"

Perhaps you don't understand?

Yes, there are a certain number of people that you are *never* going to reach. This I agree with.

There are many more people who don't even *see* racism. It's not even a thought. They don't have an opinion on race one way or the other (or at least they *think* they don't).

Those are the ones you're trying to reach. And by calling all of these people racists because it makes you feel better, then you're going to lose a lot of them. That's not an effective way to change the minds of what I believe to be the bulk of people who voted for him.

But hey, fuck it. Just call everyone who doesn't think like you a racist. Tell me how that works out 10 years from now.

Well friend, you skipped a step, the step the person mention in your quote. How do you convince a minority to engage with racists? I think it's okay to not want to interact with people, places, or things that might make you (or has made) a victim based on race. It's messed up to want to force them to fight against it.

Forcing? Not forcing you to do anything. It's your right to respond to these people however you see fit.

I'm white. I don't understand what it's like to have to explain to people that you have a shitty hand from the start. You're right about that.

But if you're discussing how you're going to change the minds of most of the country, calling them racists isn't the best way to do it. Yes or no?

 

[Puck Beaverton]

I mean, if people think peaceful options don't work, the only other alternative is violence.

Racism has been winning since the dawn of humanity btw

 

[pj]

Why would these people even want to change? It's worked out pretty well for them.

You must know different racists than I do. People with shitty lives want a scapegoat and for a lot of poor whites that scapegoat is blacks/mexicans

 

[Yaboosh]

Just like you should just calmly explain to climate change deniers that climate change is man made and real.

That always works out well.

 

[RainForce]

Are people actually going to listen to this though? Not that the damage hasn't already been done.

 

[R0ckman]

You are talking about trying to reason with people who are more or less brain washed. Its almost a religion to them. You can't 100% reason with that. I have and have seen it play out, the people are for the most part VERY stupid with a pinch of pride. Its so bad sometimes, FACTS do not work on them.

 

[DevilDog]

Frankly I don't know how you'll solve racism. It's so entrenched into some people's minds, how do you get it out?

It's as hard as challenging people to criticize and think for themselves.

 

[theignoramus]

To think, if only black people had just been nicer to white people. We could have solved racism decades ago!

Hey, it worked out well for American Indians.

 

[Altairre]

I Already have? They know my beliefs and likely wouldn't have voted for trump if a supreme court seat wasn't up for grabs.

Not one of them is racist, btw. Not even a single drop of it.

They just don't care about racism. Or minorities. Good to know.

 

[deli2000]

If people do want to show friends/relatives about how big the racial divide is in America, i'd reccomend showing them this thread from about 2 years ago that Amirox made.

Institutional Racism: The continued war on Black America

Plenty of facts and statistics laid out in a calm rational manner. Ignored by most people of course, because why listen to us seriously when you can wag your finger and call us all crybabies.

 

[Alucrid]

Are we implying that literally anyone who votes republican is a racist now, not just trump supporters?

where did i imply that? i'm trying to figure out why someone without a drop of racism would vote for trump solely to get a conservative judge on the supreme court.

 

[Beefy]

To think, if only black people had just been nicer to white people. We could have solved racism decades ago!

Next time I get racially abused I am going to calmly talk to the person and ask them why they think I am a piece of shit.

 

[therealist]

Well friend, you skipped a step, the step the person mention in your quote. How do you convince a minority to engage with racists? I think it's okay to not want to interact with people, places, or things that might make you (or has made) a victim based on race. It's messed up to want to force them to fight against it.

I think the article is saying that minorities DOING NOTHING is probably better than calling them racists, because at least then it doesn't reinforce racism.

If you are going to take a stand against racists, approach it in a constructive manner, or don't do anything at all.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I... kind of agree.

We can call someone <name x>. But no one kind of learns anything from it. For example, we call someone racist. A negative label that they will obviously deny no matter what (even if they know it, no one wants to be labelled - which is ironic, we all know that).

The party issuing the blame is right. But nothing seems to happen afterward. We'll adjust to how they are racist, and either avoid them in the future or talk to them differently (in a more negative way).

The other party, on the other hand - what's there to do? To avoid stress, we forget an insult and it's particularly easy if it's from someone anonymous or a stranger. The person will learn nothing from this encounter and move on like the majority do and keep doing what he's doing.

It's a shitty scenario because I doubt the party issuing the blame wants to help the other party become less racist (ex. driveby posts). And from experience, we've probably grown adjusted to how some people aren't looking for that help (and it's likely from anecdotal experience with fairly racist relatives).

And the shittier thing is that, likely the way past this is for the party issuing the blame to extend the olive branch. Or rely on a miracle.

 

[Lime]

Is it not Intersectional Feminism, aka Intersectionality, that says racism requires power over another to apply?

I soundly reject this idea. Racism is hating someone, or feeling superior to them, because of their skin color.

No, intersectionality is a way to understand how different identities intersect and produce different experiences for everyone. It allows us to see the differences between being a 39-year old Polish White Christian Woman who can't speak English and a 15-year old Tanzanian Atheist Boy who speaks English and Swahili. Wikipedia says:

The theory suggests that&#8212;and seeks to examine how&#8212;various biological, social and cultural categories such as gender, race, class, ability, sexual orientation, religion, caste, age, nationality and other sectarian axes of identity interact on multiple and often simultaneous levels. The theory proposes that we should think of each element or trait of a person as inextricably linked with all of the other elements in order to fully understand one's identity.[1] This framework can be used to understand how systemic injustice and social inequality occur on a multidimensional basis.[2] I

What you are referring to is the more academic definition of racism as involving a criterion of power to actually be racism, i.e. racism = prejudice +power. That is not directly related to intersectionality at all.

 

[guek]

This should be common sense for anyone who actually tries to engage with bigots or anyone with sharply contrasting views beyond just attacking them.

 

[FadedRevolution]

Y'all really need to be more like MLK

 

[Phrozenflame500]

The problem is that people associate racism as solely being a KKK member or being a "race realism"-type of Stormfront shitposter.

But most of actual modern racism is more due to either political isolation or specific ingrained cultural assumptions (the "diet racism" as it's known). These people genuinely don't believe they're doing anything wrong, and probably broadly disagree with the KKK/white nationalism hardcore shit. I think these people could be reached if they knew exactly the type of shit minorities actually face and potential solutions to these problems.

 

[Skinpop]

Nah, better to overtly call these family members and friends fucking disgusting racists, ban them from Thanksgiving dinner, then cut off all contact with them indefinitely.

Way too many on gaf seem to be preparing to do exactly that (or already have in some cases).

it's narcissism. people who call out others are more into feeling morally superior than actually making society better.

But why should it be my job to tell the racist to try an obtain empathy for racial minorities?

whos job is it then? also I think it's less about telling and more about understanding them and crucially helping them understand why they have these views.

 

[Alucrid]

Y'all really need to be more like MLK

so we need to be less eric andre?

 

[Chezzymann]

where did i imply that? i'm trying to figure out why someone without a drop of racism would vote for trump solely to get a conservative judge on the supreme court.

Because they want conservative values on the Supreme Court instead of democrat ones? My mom voted for trump only because she wants abortion banned. She hates trump and his Muslim ban comments and hopes congress stops him.

Also, she fully believes Hillary is a criminal

 

[DerangedHermit]

I think the article is saying that minorities DOING NOTHING is probably better than calling them racists, because at least then it doesn't reinforce racism.

If you are going to take a stand against racists, approach it in a constructive manner, or don't do anything at all.

Indeed, minorities should just shut up and take it.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Haven't there been cases of minorities hanging out with KKK members where the end result is that some members give up their hoods and quit the KKK? I know I've seen a few videos and read stories about. Those alone reinforce this study pretty strongly.

 

[cubicle47b]

Coming from a guy who just said intersectionality was dangerous I don't think i trust you concept of racism.

His issue with intersectionality was that the definition for institutional racism replaced the definition for racism. When that happened, you could no longer be racist towards white people (only prejudiced, and apparently nobody cares about that).

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Is it not Intersectional Feminism, aka Intersectionality, that says racism requires power over another to apply?

I soundly reject this idea. Racism is hating someone, or feeling superior to them, because of their skin color.

Intersectionality is not the same as intersectional feminism. You can be a non-intersectional feminist (relatively common, all the white women who refuse to cope with problems face black women like hypersexualization), and it's possible to be an intersectional non-feminist (rarer, but, for example, someone who campaigns for economic reform and racial rights but believes women are inferior). Intersectionality just says: there's not one dividing social issue, like poor vs. rich, white vs. black, women vs. men; there's multiple dividing issues, and each of them can interact in different ways, e.g. the problems facing white woman and black women are different. It contrasts with e.g. Marxist thought that says ultimately all social divisions are reducible to class.

Nor is it intersectionality that says racism requires institutional power. I don't think that school has a distinct title; probably because it isn't very widespread outside of campuses. It'd probably be grouped as a form of radicalism, because radicalism is about structural changes. Certainly, it's possible to be intersectional while not defining racism or sexism as requiring institutional power - for example, that's probably how I'd categorise myself.

 

[Goliath]

The problem is reducing racism takes a willingness to understand on the part of the racist and a level of communication and persuasion that the average person doesn't have. Maybe these people changed their mentality on trans people because they respected the opinion of the professional researchers communicating to them. This may not work when a 20-30 year old tries to convince his racist grandmother, grandfather or parents to change their mentality. The same level of respect and skill in persuasion isn't there.

 

[Skilletor]

It's a very simple answer. You appear you don't want to hear it.

Let's boil this down to two binary choices:

1) Call people racists.
2) Educate people on the effects of systemic racism, using statistics and studies which prove it.

What do you think is a more effective tool to enact change? Or do you simply not give a shit?

What do you think the psychological effects of a minority dealing with people who believe they're subhuman would be?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

it's narcissism. people who call out others are more into feeling morally superior than actually making society better.

So what are you two up to

 

[Afrodium]

Why is the suggestion to have conversations with racists misconstrued as empathy Ave coddling by so many? Nobody is saying we have to give up our beliefs or accept that people are racist. The point of talking to racists is to change their minds. Isn't that what we should want to do?

 

[therealist]

Indeed, minorities should just shut up and take it.

I don't really appreciate you twisting my words for no reason. I said, right there, to approach it in a constructive manner. Where on earth did you get "shut up and take it" from my sentence?

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Perhaps you don't understand?

Yes, there are a certain number of people that you are *never* going to reach. This I agree with.

There are many more people who don't even *see* racism. It's not even a thought. They don't have an opinion on race one way or the other (or at least they *think* they don't).

Those are the ones you're trying to reach. And by calling all of these people racists because it makes you feel better, then you're going to lose a lot of them. That's not an effective way to change the minds of what I believe to be the bulk of people who voted for him.

But hey, fuck it. Just call everyone who doesn't think like you a racist. Tell me how that works out 10 years from now.

What do you call someone who isn't racist but supports racist policies or an openly racist figure?

And don't say stupid shit like "human"

 

[Plumbob]

You guys suffer from the same exact issue that these people have from Day 1.


Why the FUCK do I have to prove I deserve treatment and respect like every other human being in the world due to something I had 100% NO CONTROL over?

Nobody can fucking answer the fucking question. Everyone talks those bullshit circles around it.

If the goal is to reduce prejudice, then your personal feelings are irrelevant.

You have to separate "what's fair" from "what's important."

 

[Croatoan]

His issue with intersectionality was that the definition for institutional racism replaced the definition for racism. When that happened, you could no longer be racist towards white people (only prejudiced, and apparently nobody cares about that).

See this is what I understood to be correct and why I reject it.

What do you call someone who isn't racist but supports racist policies or an openly racist figure?

And don't say stupid shit like "human"

A challenge.

 

[deli2000]

This should be common sense for anyone who actually tries to engage with bigots or anyone with sharply contrasting views beyond just attacking them.

Once again, you're not listening to people while demanding that they listen to racists. Me, and plenty of others have tried doing this for years and years, and i'm probably not going to stop. But it hasn't worked, it doesn't work. And I think it's incredibly unfair that you keep on labeling people with real concerns about how safe they feel by calling them smug liberals who like to name call.