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Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isn’t one.

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Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
I had to paraphrase the title because it was too long.

Research says there are ways to reduce racial bias. Calling people racist isn’t one of them.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

In 2016, researchers stumbled on a radical tactic for reducing another person’s bigotry: a frank, brief conversation.

The study, authored by David Broockman at Stanford University and Joshua Kalla at the University of California Berkeley, looked at how simple conversations can help combat anti-transgender attitudes. In the research, people canvassed the homes of more than 500 voters in South Florida. The canvassers, who could be trans or not, asked the voters to simply put themselves in the shoes of trans people — to understand their problems — through a 10-minute, nonconfrontational conversation. The hope was that the brief discussion could lead people to reevaluate their biases.

It worked. The trial found not only that voters’ anti-trans attitudes declined but that they remained lower three months later, showing an enduring result. And those voters’ support for laws that protect trans people from discrimination increased, even when they were presented with counterarguments for such laws.

In talking with researchers and looking at the studies on this, I found that it is possible to reduce people’s racial anxiety and prejudices. And the canvassing idea was regarded as very promising. But, researchers cautioned, the process of reducing people’s racism will take time and, crucially, empathy.

This is the direct opposite of the kind of culture the internet has fostered — typically focused on calling out racists and shaming them in public. This doesn’t work. And as much as it might seem like a lost cause to understand the perspectives of people who may qualify as racist, understanding where they come from is a needed step to being able to speak to them in a way that will help reduce the racial biases they hold.

The first thing to understand is how white Americans, especially in rural areas, hear accusations of racism. While terms like “racist,” “white privilege,” and “implicit bias” intend to point out systemic biases in America, for white Americans they’re often seen as coded slurs. These terms don’t signal to them that they’re doing something wrong, but that their supposedly racist attitudes (which they would deny having at all) are a justification for lawmakers and other elites to ignore their problems.

Imagine, for example, a white man who lost a factory job due to globalization and saw his sister die from a drug overdose due to the opioid painkiller and heroin epidemic — situations that aren’t uncommon today. He tries to complain about his circumstances. But his concerns are downplayed by a politician or racial justice activist, who instead points out that at least he’s doing better than black and brown folks if you look at broad socioeconomic measures.

Maybe he does have some level of white privilege. But that doesn’t take away from the serious problems he sees in his world today.

This is how many white Americans, particularly in working-class and rural areas, view the world today. So when they hear politicians and journalists call them racist or remind them about their privilege, they feel like elites are trying to distract from the serious problems in their lives and grant advantages to other groups of people. When Hillary Clinton called half of Trump voters “deplorable,” she made this message explicit.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.
 

CHC

Member
I've always thought it was a fallacy to assume that anyone who currently holds racist beliefs is permanently unreachable. Obviously some are beyond any hope of change, but most are not. More often than not it's simply a product of living in a homogeneous environment and having the "other" be anonymously demonized and scapegoated.
 

MC Safety

Member
I believe the general rule is it's easier to modify behavior than it is thought.

If you address the behavior and conduct, you've gone a long way in tackling the problem.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

So have I, but on NeoGAF it seems to fall on deaf ears. We need to change the democrat party to win in 2020 but it seems like everyone just wants to double down and lose again.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

Exactly.
 

Keri

Member
This is well timed, given the amount of people preparing to "call out" their family members at Thanksgiving. I think it's better to focus on encouraging empathy, by just discussing the way a lot of minorities and women feel, following this election (and the utter crushing disappointment and rejection).
 

BlackJace

Member
I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.
 
I've always thought it was a fallacy to assume that anyone who currently holds racist beliefs is permanently unreachable. Obviously some are, but most are not.
Why should good people have to bend over backwards to get racists to not think like assholes? It's really not rocket science to figure out that discrimination is a bad thing.

I agree that not everyone is a lost cause but it's frustrating that we have to walk on eggshells with these people or treat them with kid gloves just because they have an innate inclination to be jerks but really don't like being called out for it.

edit:
It's hard to find the energy to slowly convert assholes into decent human beings.
okay, Zissou said it better than I did. The timing is especially bad because we're all deflated and upset about the election right now. No one feels like extending a hand to Trump voters.
 
Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

Said it a few times too. People just responded that my suggestion of not just yelling racist or xenophobe at them was 'coddling'.

It should be blatantly obvious from brexit and trump that that approach doesn't work.

I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.

It's not about feelings though and that's what you're completely misunderstanding. It's about getting them to listen to a word you have to say, and starting out by calling them racist, even if true, just guarantees they don't listen to a single word you have to say, and continue thinking along the lines they always did. Maybe even more reassured because humans are stubborn.
 
I generally try to have a dialogue with people who dabble in "diet racism"

But I still feel it's generally fucked up that me as a black man, has to coddle people with racist tendencies who may see me as a lesser human being.

I feel white men and women who understand the issues people of color face on a daily basis should be the ones having a consistent dialogue with their family and friends about why some of their views could be considered racist. It has a much larger impact than if I were to do it regardless.
 

Lime

Member
I agree that white people need to talk with their fellow white people about racism in a manner that doesn't escalate their bigotry, yet at the same time Nepenthe had a good post about the fact that we cannot win over everyone:

It's been time for white people to speak out against bigotry. If nothing else, this election proves what happens when good people stand aside and allow evil to waltz on into the White House. People empathize with those in closest proximity to them, and white people are on average going to be closest to white people. Challenging bigoted views in the home is one way to at least get the gears in one's head turning, assuming their opening to listening.

Granted, I'm more of a pragmatist. I'm exhausted of the idea of enlightenment and education because it's been over half a millenia and we've not gotten anywhere close to smashing bigotry into dust. People are suffering every minute that someone is having a talk with ol' Grandpappy about why slavery wasn't a good thing for black people. I want results regardless of whether or not everyone is on board the ship already. Ergo, I would rather people protest, call their senators and hit up town hall meetings, and VOTE (yes, even if you don't want to have a beer with the candidate in question) to institute legal protections, recognition, and exceptions for minorities in the meantime. I feel governmental precedents inspire change quicker than cultural and educational shifts do. As I said before, slaves weren't freed because white people ever got around to liking us. We were freed because a President signed a document saying so. Thus, I want more documents signed and more laws instituted in the meantime.

We can't win over everyone and civil rights didn't get passed by getting everyone on the wagon. So I personally wouldn't exhaust myself trying to convince the stubborn ones, but instead go for the more moderates willing to listen *as well as* doing the political work required to institutionalize equality.
 

Ashes

Banned
When Hillary Clinton called half of Trump voters “deplorable,” she made this message explicit.

Hilary getting called out for this quite something. She called them deplorable because they were.
 

CHC

Member
Why should good people have to bend over backwards to get racists to not think like assholes? It's really not rocket science to figure out that discrimination is a bad thing.

You don't have to do anything, provided you are fine with the way things are.

The disenfranchised whites who hold ignorant and racist worldviews want things to stay the same. We want them to change. Unfortunately, that makes this our problem.
 
There are many people who cannot be swayed no matter how hard you try. And the problem is that gaf generally focuses on just these people and attributes them to literally every person who happened to go to the polls and vote for Trump.

There are people who can. Some people just don't really think about stuff this much. Or just don't have large circles of people in their life and don't really realize how certain things come across to other people.

We also have to consider how dangerous the news bubbles we live in now are. Between fox news and fake stuff on facebook, there are a lot of people who are just completely exposed to just that. Like my aunt and uncle, thats all they know. And just as Obama said "If I watched Fox News, I wouldn't vote for me either".
 

Maxim726X

Member
So have I, but on NeoGAF it seems to fall on deaf ears. We need to change the democrat party to win in 2020 but it seems like everyone just wants to double down and lose again.

Even more disturbing, personally, is the argument that by caring more about the white working class, the party will somehow abandon social and racial progressiveness.

Like, what? Who says that being more receptive to the needs of those voters will have to come at the expense of minorities? Left my scratching my head.
 
I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.

That's the thing though, this research isn't indicating that anyone should be exempt from anything, it makes no value judgements on who belongs in what category. It just indicates that having a simple, frank conversation with them can have a significant effect on reducing their racist attitudes.

You don't have to act in accordance with their findings. Feel free to label away.
 

Meowster

Member
Hilary getting called out for this quite something. She called them deplorable because they were.
Considering it is going to be quite apt to call Trump's future cabinet a basket of deplorables...

One of the things she did right imho.
 

Skilletor

Member
I'll leave that to white people, because fuck anybody that wants to treat me as subhuman just because I had the good luck to be born black.
 

Keri

Member
Why should good people have to bend over backwards to get racists to not think like assholes?

Because they want the world to be a better place and this is the most effective way of improving the situation. Yeah, it sucks balls, but if it works, it's worth it.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.

Both groups label in a way that demeans and disenfranchises. This belief that you cannot be racist against whites, and that they should just tough it out because of some perceived privileged, is racist as fuck and completely backwards thinking.

Poor white people who have nothing are the same as poor brown people that have nothing. Treating them differently because their skin is white is textbook racism.

Intersectionality, or more to the point its definition of racism, is a dangerous ideology that is destroying the Democrat Party and pushing needed votes away. It needs to go.
 
moderates have been saying this for a while. but now moderates are often bunched in the same group with (diet) racists, so people think they should be ignored as well

Why should good people have to bend over backwards to get racists to not think like assholes? It's really not rocket science to figure out that discrimination is a bad thing.

I agree that not everyone is a lost cause but it's frustrating that we have to walk on eggshells with these people or treat them with kid gloves just because they have an innate inclination to be jerks but really don't like being called out for it.
no one says you have to. feel free to call anyone whatever you want, but be aware that it probably won't make anything better.

let's assume there clear research (not saying there is) that calling everyone racists makes things worse, but keeping an open mind and engaging in conversation makes things better. why wouldn't you?

and I'm not talking about super ultra racists here. this isn't binary.
 
I sure do hate how all these white liberals love trying to tell minorities and other marginalized people who've been oppressed since pretty much this country's inception, that they are the ones who should try to have empathy for racists and the people who've had power in this country for the longest while. It's a wild thing.
 

Coketruck

Member
Which is another reason why Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment was so stupid. While the full context of the quote (which never gets repeated) actually speaks to reaching out to white, working class folk that ultimately voted for Trump, the only part that anybody remembers seems to write off all Trump supporters as irredeemably racist. Of course that's going to cause of lot of people to become defensive and vote against her.
 

sikkinixx

Member
The third quote in the OP is so true. I can't remember which podcast I was listening to but the host talked about how suffering has become a kind of currency that people use to clai the higher ground on others. "you think YOU have it bad?! WELL YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE I DEAL WITH.. etc etc etc" Your hardship doesn't invalidate the hardship of anyone else.

I like the idea of trying to get people to empathize more instead of just browbeating them.
 
Both groups label in a way that demeans and disenfranchises. This belief that you cannot be racist against whites, and that they should just tough it out because of some perceived privileged, is racist as fuck and completely backwards thinking.

Poor white people who have nothing are the same as poor brown people that have nothing. Treating them differently because their skin is white is textbook racism.

Intersectionality, or more to the point its definition of racism, is a dangerous ideology that is destroying the Democrat Party and pushing needed votes away. It needs to go.

Dude said intersectionality is dangerous





Fucking hell

AND YET people resist putting in the work to do the former.

Including the OP
 

Henkka

Banned
This kind of thing often gets strawmanned as "coddling racists". It's not about coddling, it's about the pragmatics of convincing people of your point of view and, you know, winning elections hopefully.
 
op, are you going to have a nice 10 minute talk with your trump voting family this thanksgiving?

Naw, they are going to sit quietly while Dad going on about how Trump is going to kick out the Mexicans and stop the Black Live matter 'Thugs'. Then they'll go home and post on Neogaf about how they tried and understand where their less enlightened family members were coming from and showed empathy for their "opinions".
 

Dude Abides

Banned
So have I, but on NeoGAF it seems to fall on deaf ears. We need to change the democrat party to win in 2020 but it seems like everyone just wants to double down and lose again.

Maybe you need to have a brief 10 minute conversation with them and put yourself in their shoes.

Also, "Democrat party" is not the preferred nomenclature.
 

balohna

Member
Yeah, even on a microcosmic level you saw a lot of this when gamergate shit was getting heated. Anything that was like "white dudes are bad" sort of got to me as a white dude, and these were people I broadly agreed with. I knew if I wasn't already on their side, that response would not sway me.

Basically, treat people as individuals. Know the statistics, but telling someone they're privileged doesn't make them feel better if their life is shitty. It just makes them feel atracked or misunderstood.
 
Which is another reason why Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment was so stupid. While the full context of the quote (which never gets repeated) actually speaks to reaching out to white, working class folk that ultimately voted for Trump, the only part that anybody remembers seems to write off all Trump supporters as irredeemably racist. Of course that's going to cause of lot of people to become defensive and vote against her.

What evidence is there that that comment had any impact on the election? People are trying way too hard to pin Hilary's loss on Liberals rightfully calling out Trump's bullshit, when the more likely reasons she lost has nothing to do with that.
 

Beefy

Member
Nope. I am not going to a try to reason with a person that thinks or says I am a nigger, faggot etc etc.
 
So its up to White people to talk to other Whites about racism then. PoC have zero obligation to make racists feel less racial anxiety about us & it doesnt work when we try anyway. My people were getting lynched in their Sunday bests & getting beat up for the most passive forms of resistance, were done reaching out to bigots. We tried for 400 years, someone else better pick up that ball.
 

Meowster

Member
Both groups label in a way that demeans and disenfranchises. This belief that you cannot be racist against whites, and that they should just tough it out because of some perceived privileged, is racist as fuck and completely backwards thinking.

Poor white people who have nothing are the same as poor brown people that have nothing. Treating them differently because their skin is white is textbook racism.

Intersectionality, or more to the point its definition of racism, is a dangerous ideology that is destroying the Democrat Party and pushing needed votes away. It needs to go.
Intersectionality is what the Democratic Party thrives off of. We can do more to reach out to poor and lower middle class white individuals but this is not the way.
 
Yeah, I agree but the pseudo-high-minded 'oh you shouldn't call them racist' that has been in a lot of discussions also isn't helpful. Yeah, I'll still say people are being racist if they are but I wouldn't do that to sway people and I don't think many others that have said the word 'racist' since the election would either.

I also do agree with sentiments of it being a bit fucking rich that suddenly racists should only be called nice names so we don't scare them off.

Once more, the article is right but anyone taking this as carte-blanche to whinge at anyone using the word 'racist' is definitely in the wrong. Once more, I'll say something is racist if it is but of course calling someone racist wont convince them, that's common sense. However, I'm also not in the business of converting the racists on Gaf or in the news.
 

pj

Banned
This kind of thing often gets strawmanned as "coddling racists". It's not about coddling, it's about the pragmatics of convincing people of your point of view and, you know, winning elections hopefully.

Yeah, no one is suggesting you agree with them or respect their point of view. You have to engage with them to show them why they're wrong, rather than just block them on twitter and think you've made the world a better place.

White people are still the majority, you're gonna have to deal with them for a while.
 

Azih

Member
The question here is do you want to sneer at people or try and make the world a better place.

The two are pretty much mutually exclusive.
 
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