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[Downhome]

This is the most obvious thing ever. Anyone that doesn't realize this needs to sit back and face realty. Two wrongs, or acts of aggression, do not make a right. We learn that when we are all kids, or we are supposed to learn that at least.

Heck, labeling folks you deem as racist, when they aren't actually, can make some people racist In the end.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

Yep. The average poster on GAF is a great example of what not to do. We have people on here calling people racists, misogynists, bitches, assholes, fuckers, Nazis, shit-fucks, cunt-waffles, cockerspaniels, and all sorts of other rude things as if that'll do anything at all to help. Hell, we had people calling Trump "Drumpf" as if that is any better than when Republicans called Obama "Obummer". Really made me quite disappointed to see my fellow liberals fall to this level, even if Trump isn't a good Presidential candidate.

The best thing, IMO, to combat racism, misogyny, etc., is to show people your point of view in a polite manner, show them alternative lines of thinking, and cross your fingers. You can't force someone to not think bad thoughts, you can only provide them with resources and alternative ideas that hopefully sway them.

 

[Violence Jack]

I don't call Trump supporters that I know racist (my new father-in-law and my best friend mother who I both know definitely are not) but there needs to be discussion as to why they felt like electing someone and their VP who doesn't view people of color nor members of the LGBT community as being equal. Plus, a lot of Trump supporters have had this "sucks to be you" attitude when people talk about real concerns regarding their livelihood, while refusing to understand or have some compassion as to why we might feel this way.

I'll never generalize all Trump supporters as being racist. And I wasn't exactly the biggest Hillary fan myself. But I will say that their vote just enabled a party with racist, homophobic, and misogynistic views, that I wouldn't expect any minority or LGBT person to exactly be cool with.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Many of these people don't though. Racist views are most often held by people who live in areas where minority populations are negligible

They see minorities on TV. They see them on their favorite sports team. Every town has a few minority families. Many of them have worked with minorities before at factory jobs. You can't really "hide" it. Yes, it's a very small amount, but it's not non-existent. As someone who lived in rural America, I can tell you that minorities are not someone they've never had any experience with, unlike someone who is transgender.

They are well aware of the existence of minorities.


That isn't the case with people who are transgender. Hence, why the situation is different.

Let's not underestimate the influence of a TV show like Modern Family for gay marriage. It took what was incredibly unfamiliar and really reached people for the first time. Before that, the concept of someone who was gay was an unfamiliar concept to a lot of people.

 

[Lime]

See this is what I understood to be correct and why I reject it.

But that's not what intersectionality is.

 

[Loudninja]

Why is the suggestion to have conversations with racists misconstrued as empathy Ave coddling by so many? Nobody is saying we have to give up our beliefs or accept that people are racist. The point of talking to racists is to change their minds. Isn't that what we should want to do?

Because it does not work and its not up to us to do it.

 

[Maxim726X]

What do you think the psychological effects of a minority dealing with people who believe they're subhuman would be?

Answered above, but of course there will be those beyond reach. Having any kind of conversation with these people is an exercise in futility.

But most do not fall under that category. If that was the case, then we'd have made no progress in the last 60 years. There are many who tacitly condone it because they don't experience it personally. It's an afterthought.

Those are the people worth reaching out to.

 

[call_kotaku]

It's a very simple answer. You appear you don't want to hear it.

Let's boil this down to two binary choices:

1) Call people racists.
2) Educate people on the effects of systemic racism, using statistics and studies which prove it.

What do you think is a more effective tool to enact change? Or do you simply not give a shit?

Why are you pretending choice 2 is remotely effective?

Bigoted people (not just white people, before the reverse racism stuff starts) will only reevaluate their views when they choose to, no amount of empathy or well-meaning pleas from strangers will ever change that. In the mean time we can all be honest and discuss the issues without being politically correct towards sensitive people, because if we can somehow convey the urgency and importance of taking action it might make a difference with the people who actually want to listen.

Social progress doesn't just revolve around sheltered white people, and telling people not to protest too loudly ends up being tone policing more than anything else. Even if you mean well what people hear is "just endure this, because if you speak up you'll deserve what happens to you".

 

[Monocle]

I've long thought it's possible to persuade people out of intolerance. Looking back at my own significant shift in thinking, it was a matter of acquiring info from reliable sources and learning to empathize with others. Which meant I first had to learn what makes a source reliable and how to critically engage with challenging ideas, and second had to be exposed to a lot of stories about how other people were affected by adversity. It was really hard, and I can only hope that most people would have an easier time, given the chance to change.

Unfortunately, I don't have a natural ability to get through to the stubbornly intolerant, and I don't have the patience to put serious work into my communication skills, so frustration usually wins out and I get annoyed at people's aggressive ignorance.

 

[cubicle47b]

What do you think the psychological effects of a minority dealing with people who believe they're subhuman would be?

I don't think anyone said it was the job of minorities to do this. It's up to white liberals to spread empathy among their family and friends.

 

[Plumbob]

Because it does not work and its not up to us to do it.

"Up to" is irrelevant.

The world is in the state it is today. You can either work to improve it or you can leave it as is.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Calling people racist isn't meant to reduce racism; it's meant to call out racism.

What these articles fail to grasp is racists don't see themselves as racists and those people live in a different reality. They don't acknowledge white privilege or discrimination against minorities to any degree, no matter the facts and evidence.

So good luck with those conversations.

Imagine, for example, a white man who lost a factory job due to globalization and saw his sister die from a drug overdose due to the opioid painkiller and heroin epidemic — situations that aren’t uncommon today. He tries to complain about his circumstances. But his concerns are downplayed by a politician or racial justice activist, who instead points out that at least he’s doing better than black and brown folks if you look at broad socioeconomic measures.

Maybe he does have some level of white privilege. But that doesn’t take away from the serious problems he sees in his world today.

This isn't a thing. This doesn't happen.

We are actually talking about combating racism in terms of seeing the racists as some kind of victims because they have everyday problems? Well, they don't have everyday problems compounded by discrimination and racism.

 

[Zekes!]

Is it not Intersectional Feminism, aka Intersectionality, that says racism requires power over another to apply?

I soundly reject this idea. Racism is hating someone, or feeling superior to them, because of their skin color.

What you described is prejudice

 

[deli2000]

People really don't give a fuck about listening to the actual arguments minority posters are putting forward in this thread and elsewhere. No one will listen us, and the moment we talk we're suddenly being aggressive. It's just depressing.

 

[EdibleKnife]

If the goal is to reduce prejudice, then your personal feelings are irrelevant.

You have to separate "what's fair" from "what's important."

Personal feelings are relevant because the entire subject is a person's unchangeable identity. You can't ask people to separate the personal and the emotional when the discussion at hand is how their identity as a black , Latino, gay, or female individual is invalid or worthless in the eyes of other people

 

[DerangedHermit]

I don't really appreciate you twisting my words for no reason. I said, right there, to approach it in a constructive manner. Where on earth did you get "shut up and take it" from my sentence?

Hmmm ... no, actually what you said, was:

... approach it in a constructive manner, or don't do anything at all.

 

[freeofgreed]

That's your personal experience and yet this article suggests otherwise. You asked a question initially about why you shouldn't call people racists, the article tells you why you shouldn't.

If you disagree with the findings in the article, then expand on why you think it's wrong.

I have several times. And of course my personal experience matters. If you guys are telling me to try to educate racist and when I have done this and it doesn't work. Why should I continue to do so?

 

[Loudninja]

"Up to" is irrelevant.

The world is in the state it is today. You can either work to improve it or you can leave it as is.

I dont get this do people think this has not been tried many times before?

We do this with every blackface topic.

 

[Ryzaki009]

Do people really think the nice tolerant explanations hasn't been done already?

Like what? People have tried that route for centuries. And we're still in our current position.

If it does work it's slow as molasses and doesn't effect enough people on a wide enough scale.

 

[Maxim726X]

What do you call someone who isn't racist but supports racist policies or an openly racist figure?

And don't say stupid shit like "human"

Salvageable.

Many of these voters simply believe he isn't racist, or that he's lying to receive the support of racists (not that this is any better).

Point is- They don't confront it. We can make them confront it in two ways- One is calling them a racist, the other is laying out your case and hoping that it at least causes them to question their own beliefs. That's where change starts.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

People really don't give a fuck about listening to the actual arguments minority posters are putting forward in this thread and elsewhere. No one will listen us, and the moment we talk we're suddenly being aggressive. It's just depressing.

Ultra Hypocrisy Culture,

We've finally crossed over. The narrative has been made and the culture war is lost.

America is great again so the browns are crying for no reason. You can't call us racists, makes our feelings hurt.

Salvageable.

Many of these voters simply believe he isn't racist, or that he's lying to receive the support of racists (not that this is any better).

Point is- They don't confront it. We can make them confront it in two ways- One is calling them a racist, the other is laying out your case and hoping that it at least causes them to question their own beliefs. That's where change starts.

All 3 have been happening since the beginning of the USA, before me and you.

To be fair man, completely honest to you and this discussion.

If minorities stopped calling people who deserved to be called racists tomm, the same attitudes and same uneducated minds would still continue on. Yeah, it may help shortterm, but hell no it isn't some utopia solution.

People are more fucking afraid of being called racist then actually portraying racist behavior.

 

[Alucrid]

Because they want conservative values on the Supreme Court instead of democrat ones? My mom voted for trump only because she wants abortion banned. She hates trump and his Muslim ban comments and hopes congress stops him.

is your mom racist? i don't know. does she value anti-abortion over minority rights? did she vote for house and senate representatives that would be against the muslim ban?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't even deny that putting in work is necessary if you want to "convert" racists but

1) I don't want people who are unwilling to try with the racists/ignorant people in their lives giving me shit

2) I don't want to hear people saying name calling is bad and then calling people different names

3) I don't want to hear people pretending a Trump vote was an intelligent decision and then expect to be taken seriously

I will eat a murder of crows if the next four years go ok, but I don't expect to be plucking feathers out of my teeth

There is a temporal, emotional, and sometimes physical cost to really fighting racism and not everyone has that kind of currency on them

 

[Plumbob]

I dont get this do people think this has not been tried may times before?

So are you calling the methodology of the study into question? It seemed to work then.

 

[Croatoan]

But that's not what intersectionality is.

Then I miss spoke. My bad.

 

[R0ckman]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I disagree and do agree that its basically coddling. I've been given negative labels and a lot of times I actually will attempt to reevaluate my stance and myself. The "insult" was the wake-up call I needed.

I have a toddler, when they do something wrong and get directly punished they scream and retaliate rather than realizing what they did was wrong, and thats sometimes. Are these people asking to be treated like children?

 

[entremet]

Frankly I don't know how you'll solve racism. It's so entrenched into some people's minds, how do you get it out?

It's as hard as challenging people to criticize and think for themselves.

It's a feature that has become a bug basically.

We're deeply social and tribal as a species and In Group preferences are very strong.

However, we now live in a society where people of different colors and ethnicities are more intertwined than ever before.

Let's not that even amongst peoples who look alike, there are other ISM to worry about. The various wars in Europe, East Asia, and Africa prove this.

Let's also not forget tribal warfare as well and these from peoples who share more in common both in customs and genetics.

I honestly think it will never be solved, but we should put systems in place to help mitigate the effects of this bias.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I wonder if tons more studies were done, and conclusively, they found these results. That unarguably, calling people racist does not help fix racism at all. Would people still hunt to label people it under the guise that they want to fix racism? I know most that do so would like to fix racism, but I would love to see how many do it to get their kicks.

 

[Lime]

Regarding "exposure equals less bigotry" from the studies: I also find it mind-boggling to see so many people being fans of sports, music, and the arts with many of the amazing talents be non-White, and yet they go home and vote for Trump. And I can't even imagine what it must feel like to work so incredibly hard in your entire life and then have a sizeable portion in your audience think you are a lesser human because of your skin color or religion.

It reminds me of the Louis Theroux (sp?) visiting white supremacists in South Africa and one of the guys being a big fan of Lionel Richie (or someone similar), yet he couldn't see the disconnect between his love for a Black musical talent and his ideology of white supremacy.

 

[KrellRell]

Focusing on what makes us different will never make things better or change people's minds. Racists do this, and anti racists do just the same. We need to take the time to try and understand each other, we'll realize everyone wants the same things but we're taking different paths to get there. Help people figure out what they really want and you can help them find a better path to get there instead of simply telling them they are wrong, bad people etc.

 

[EatinOlives]

It's odd to make this argument when this election cycle has seen an incredibly worrying rise in the proliferation of fake news. People are NOT interested in research, truthfulness, or data. People want to consume the media that reaffirms their beliefs, and while it sounds reasonable and noble to talk to people non-confrontationally about social issues and back it up with data, chances are more than high that those people you're talking to will in turn trot out false data because it conforms with their beliefs. It's not like people immediately jump to "YOU'RE A RACIST" when talking to others in real life. There's a whole lot of strawmanning going on in thinking that all people are doing are shoving their hand in front of racists' faces and shutting down conversations after 10 seconds. The vast majority of the time, you have uncomfortable but earnest conversations that end with people trying to bail out on them by claiming "agree to disagree". If you talk to enough diet racist (or overtly racist) co-workers, acquaintances and family members you'll get firsthand experience at this.

This is "Normalization: The Article". Trump and his message won out, in a deeper, way more worrying way. Let's come back in 4 years and see where all this "non-confrontational" inclusiveness has got us.

Vox, I know you mean well, but this ain't the answer to winning elections. Running a good campaign is the answer to winning elections. Don't try to burden minorities with wild goose chases to take away from the real issue that's been gnawing at people the past week.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I generally try to have a dialogue with people who dabble in "diet racism"

But I still feel it's generally fucked up that me as a black man, has to coddle people with racist tendencies who may see me as a lesser human being.

I feel white men and women who understand the issues people of color face on a daily basis should be the ones having a consistent dialogue with their family and friends about why some of their views could be considered racist. It has a much larger impact than if I were to do it regardless.

I mean, it definitely sucks. I don't blame you if you see something and just say "fuck it I'm tired." But while in a just world it shouldn't be on the minority of people to have the patience of a saint, it's the best option we have.

 

[Altairre]

it's narcissism. people who call out others are more into feeling morally superior than actually making society better.

If someone in my family or someone I know holds those beliefs then I will try to talk to them and I will try to convice them. Explain why they're wrong (even though it should be fucking obvious at this point) and how they are actively hurting other people. If they continue to hold those beliefs I will absolutely stop talking to them or at least reduce interactions to a bare minimum. For my own god damn sanity. It's not about feeling morally superior but I'm so tired of this bullshit and I'm white. I can't even begin to imagine how tired minorities are of having to live with it every single day. Can you really blame them for just saying "fuck it" at some point?

 

[Lime]

This is the most obvious thing ever. Anyone that doesn't realize this needs to sit back and face realty. Two wrongs, or acts of aggression, do not make a right. We learn that when we are all kids, or we are supposed to learn that at least.

Heck, labeling folks you deem as racist, when they aren't actually, can make some people racist In the end.

You voted Trump and what have you learned from the people telling you about his bigotry and racist statements?

 

[Eidan]

This is the most obvious thing ever. Anyone that doesn't realize this needs to sit back and face realty. Two wrongs, or acts of aggression, do not make a right. We learn that when we are all kids, or we are supposed to learn that at least.

Heck, labeling folks you deem as racist, when they aren't actually, can make some people racist In the end.

Really? Is that all it takes for some people to become racist? How fragile.

A woman once called my grandfather and I niggers when my grandfather protested her leaning her bicycle against his car. She was racist. Calling her racist isn't an "act of aggression". It's not a "wrong". It's a fucking fact.

This article feels like a guide for sane whites to deal with their racist relatives, of whom this election proved there are plenty. I'll leave it up to you guys to deal with your bigots with kid gloves. I'll continue calling a spade a spade.

 

[besada]

By all means, people who have the strength, the opportunity, and the desire should attempt to educate rather than browbeat.

But I blame no minority for being unwilling to do the heavy lifting on it. They shouldn't have to eat shit and give back sweetness non-stop. Asking them to do so ignores human nature every bit as much as the idea that you can call someone racist so much they stop being racist.

The reality is, a lot of people have given up on the racists, in part because they've tried before, often in their own families. As has been pointed out, the study was about trans people, and many people have no direct contact with trans people. They also weren't necessarily taught shitty things about trans people, largely because a couple of decades ago most people had never heard the concept as anything but TV fantasy.

That's a very different kettle of fish than American racism, which has been with us since our inception and sunk into every pore, where literally generations of families have worn the hood, or saluted the swastika, or just routinely thought of non-whites as sub human.

So educate, if you have it in you. But educating people and holding a firm societal line against racism -- including calling it what it is -- aren't mutually exclusive. And you can't reasonably expect anyone to always be educating, unless you have the Maitreya in your pocket. I've had these discussions with my extended racist relatives, and after enough attempts, where they flatly tell you they don't care what effect it has, and that they don't believe anything you're saying because Rush told them differently, it stops being worth your limited time in this world to try and correct people who cleave to hatred.

 

[VendettaRed07]

What do you call someone who isn't racist but supports racist policies or an openly racist figure?

And don't say stupid shit like "human"

Sometimes people don't understand the policies they support actually have negative racial outcomes. Like, the spin on conservative networks as to why they push the laws that they do.

The vast majority of people who vote for Republicans that implement voter suppression laws don't really believe the goal is literally to stop black people from voting. They get fed all these false stories of some Democrats in Michigan getting dead people to vote to rig elections "just like Kennedy did in 1960!"

 

[Nuclear Pancakes]

You guys suffer from the same exact issue that these people have from Day 1.


Why the FUCK do I have to prove I deserve treatment and respect like every other human being in the world due to something I had 100% NO CONTROL over?

Nobody can fucking answer the fucking question. Everyone talks those bullshit circles around it.

Basically this. POC get so upset over the, 'be nicer' bullshit because you are basically asking us to defend why we should be treated as a fucking human. The answer is no. Fuck racists.

Plenty of positive work for civil rights has been done without catering to the feelings of racist idiots and those that are willing to turn a blind eye. And plenty more will be done in the future. So get on board or get the fuck out the way.

Thanks.

 

[Croatoan]

Answered above, but of course there will be those beyond reach. Having any kind of conversation with these people is an exercise in futility.

But most do not fall under that category. If that was the case, then we'd have made no progress in the last 60 years. There are many who tacitly condone it because they don't experience it personally. It's an afterthought.

Those are the people worth reaching out to.

Exactly, a lot of the people being labeled a racist for voting for Trump are not racist, or are diet racist. These people will listen, and support social justice if you don't treat them like shit.

We asked people to chose the least worst candidate this election and are now wondering why people supported both? Maybe people made a choice based on more than just social justice concerns?

I couldn't, and didn't, vote for Trump for a lot of reasons. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything Hillary stands for either, and she got my vote.

 

[gtj1092]

This is getting absurd. These people were racist when they were doing well and they are racist now. Maybe the solution could be the "moderates" not equating calling someone a racist to the harmful effects racism has had on the country. No one asks rape victims to sympathize with their rapist. I mean maybe he or she was abused as a child. Should we not call murderers murderers? Racism isn't just thoughts it's actions built into the government and the people. Maybe if don't experience racism it is just a thought project and you think trump supporters and Hilary supporters are simply calling each other names.

And can someone please explain to me how the Democratic party ignores rural whites in favor of minorities? Is not threatening to deport Mexicans anti white somehow. The simple fact is yes rural whites want jobs but so do we all. Why are they more important than me? I can get behind a platform about creating jobs but miss me with a platform advocating jobs for white people.

 

[DerangedHermit]

People really don't give a fuck about listening to the actual arguments minority posters are putting forward in this thread and elsewhere. No one will listen us, and the moment we talk we're suddenly being aggressive. It's just depressing.

Because this isn't about reducing or fighting racism, this is about feeling good about themselves, be it their vote or their views, or about the shit that gets spewed by their friends or families. It's just a new level of dog whistling or normalizing said views.

 

[Somnid]

Why the FUCK do I have to prove I deserve treatment and respect like every other human being in the world due to something I had 100% NO CONTROL over?

Nobody can fucking answer the fucking question. Everyone talks those bullshit circles around it.

You don't, that's not what sensible people saying. You're internalizing this as an attack, that you're somehow responsible for racism for not strongly engaging in education. It's not. You don't have to do anything. Basically it's like if the transmission on your car goes out. It's not your fault, it's not fair the and it's extremely costly and a huge life disruption. You can say "Fuck this, I'm taking the bus" or begrudgingly find the most efficient way to fix the car. What people are doing is trying to identify the best mechanic, but you still don't have to go there and may not have the ability to make that effort, but the car is broke either way.

 

[n00bsauce87]

But if you're discussing how you're going to change the minds of most of the country, calling them racists isn't the best way to do it. Yes or no?

Yes. whether you say racist, white privilege, racial bias, or being discriminatory based on race. The first step in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have one. The response is to either embrace it, deny it, or fix it.

The other thing is white allies should be the ones who do the talking and convincing. I think the conversation would be more beneficial if another white person comes out and said that they know they have privilege because they can share experiences since they would get similar treatment as opposed to be seen as an accusation from a minority.

You know how people from similar backgrounds can better reach others because they have the same story (more or less), the same can be said about white privilege. I mean minorities can see it, but we can't share experiences because we aren't white. Except those who can pass in society.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Because it does not work and its not up to us to do it.

Isn't that what this thread is about though? That it potentially does work more than we thought, and that we might need to reconsider that the evidence with which we have provided ourselves is anecdotal?

OP clearly dedicated to stomping out racism with hard work and empathy tho

so are you going to have this talk with your family or not?

Frankly, it's incredibly disappointing that the OP's article has made you so upset that you have decided to bring in his own personal situation and personally attack him instead of actually discuss the article. How he addresses his families' bigotry isn't your business.

Him posting this thread and this article is not a personal attack on you (though you may feel like it because it calls your own behaviour out as harmful towards progress). Don't respond like it is. Such fragility!

 

[Razorback]

Just because something is unfair doesn't mean it's wrong. It's completely unfair that people that hold bigoted views have to be coddled for there to be a slight chance of them changing their minds. But that's how it is. If you want to see change in the world, you have to use the most effective tools available. It has nothing to do with who deserves what.

 

[Machina]

I am so sick of this "anxious about my job" bullshit. You can't have your cake and eat it too by sticking your nose up at every solution put forward to find you a new job, such as laying the groundwork to fight climate change for example then go ahead and vote for the guy who openly says he thinks it's a hoax.

Economic hardship? Preservation of the dying European American? Draining the swamp?

Nah, more like Francis from rural Kentucky fucked his sister and now we've got President Trump.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

How are singular, sometimes exhausting conversations going to change people when they have media and family and community constantly bombarding them with positive reinforcement for their racist views.

I'm fine with the idea of white people in a position to do so to try and change minds gently about these sorts of things, but not everyone has the influence to do so, nor are in a secure enough position to do so. I can't exactly go too public with my views on certain things, nor can I be too open about my views because of all the conservative people I work with.

But I definitely reject the idea that PoC or LGBTQ+ people should bear any responsibility for this. Many of them have to work hard enough to just to survive and deal with both the overt and subtle prejudice they face on a daily basis, and it's hard to imagine asking them to expend additional energy trying to convince people who probably should have done more to educate themselves.

 

[therealist]

Hmmm ... no, actually what you said, was:

Point is you paraphrased my quote in a misleading manner. How you got from "Minorities can either do X or do Y" to "Minorities should just do Y" makes zero sense to me.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Isn't that what this thread is about though? That it potentially does work more than we thought, and that we might need to reconsider that the evidence with which we have provided ourselves is anecdotal?





Frankly, it's incredibly disappointing that the OP's article has made you so upset that you have decided to bring in his own personal situation and personally attack him instead of actually discuss the article. How he addresses his families' bigotry isn't your business.

Him posting this thread and this article is not a personal attack on you (though you may feel like it because it calls your own behaviour out as harmful towards progress). Don't respond like it is. Such fragility!

If someone can't be bothered to take care of home I don't want them telling me how to clean mine.

 

[Salty Rice]

Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

Totally agree. Sadly a lot of people on Gaf do this.