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[Tschumi]

You do, since you were defending them.

I'm just providing examples of how all the excuses are wrong.

I don't care <3

 

[Sinthor]

Most developers would rather create a game that scales even to mobiles.

I don't think that's true. More platforms and 'scaling' means a lot more complexity and pain in the ass. I've done development work for multiple platforms (not games), and keeping the feature set common and coding for the variances of platforms or even sometimes trying to find a way to shovel the feature set onto some older more limited platform is a HUGE PAIN. So maybe the PUBLISHERS would prefer to have all the way down to mobile covered, but the DEVELOPERS likely would rather design and code for ONE platform.

 

[Kagey K]

I don't care <3

Well you sure do defend a lot for someone who doesn't care.

As evidenced below

I think it's obvious that these cross gen decisions were made because early profit figuring done before COVID probably concluded that a lot more people would have Ps5s by now, and they're having to completely rejig their approach to compensate. Better gt7 be available on the hugely successful and widely available ps4 and pro than the storage rooms of ten thousand scalpers

Anyone saying this is some kind of deception seems to be forcing the issue a bit


That is the voice of someone who doesn't care according to them.

 

[Tschumi]

I think these titles were always intended as cross gen, let's be serious, you just cannot shift directions deep in development like this.

That's valid, i can see that. I just don't know how difficult it is to downgrade vs upgrade, so to speak, what i mean is I'm not surprised if sometime in the last year or so since COVID really started to have an effect the decision was made to guarantee uncertain profit margins in an uncertain moment for the industry, rather than it being some nefarious scheme from the moment of conception for the games.. i don't think sony are the daft villains forum goers like to simplify them as being just my two cents, i don't really care too much because I'm over the moon I'll be able to play a full gt title on my ps4 pro, against all expectations <3

 

[Tschumi]

Well you sure do defend a lot for someone who doesn't care.

As evidenced below

I think it's obvious that these cross gen decisions were made because early profit figuring done before COVID probably concluded that a lot more people would have Ps5s by now, and they're having to completely rejig their approach to compensate. Better gt7 be available on the hugely successful and widely available ps4 and pro than the storage rooms of ten thousand scalpers

Anyone saying this is some kind of deception seems to be forcing the issue a bit


That is the voice of someone who doesn't care according to them.

What i mean is i don't care about you disagreeing with me, likewise i won't be bothered if this other guy i just quoted gets all forum flamey overreactive with me either

 

[ZywyPL]

Most publishers would rather create a game that scales even to mobiles.

Fixed. The devs want as much creativity freedom as possible, so obviously they want the most capable and the easiest to program platform, but the publishers are the ones who count money.

 

[twilo99]

I really don't get why are so many people against "cross-gen" development. I don't even know why we have "generations" when it comes to consoles. Its equivalent to a dev having to only develop games for Pascal because developing for the older generation, Maxwell, will be holding everything back. That's ridiculous.

And I think Sony can finally support their older model since there is some consistency when it comes to architecture. Not sure about PS1 and PS2, but support for PS4 games on PS3 was a complete mess because of the CPU, etc.

Also, Sony can change their mind when it comes to "Cross gen" .. they are a corporation. In this case they probably wanted to ride the positive media train for a while, and did.. no big deal.

 

[Kagey K]

I really don't get why are so many people against "cross-gen" development. I don't even know why we have "generations" when it comes to consoles. Its equivalent to a dev having to only develop games for Pascal because developing for the older generation, Maxwell, will be holding everything back. That's ridiculous.

And I think Sony can finally support their older model since there is some consistency when it comes to architecture. Not sure about PS1 and PS2, but support for PS4 games on PS3 was a complete mess because of the CPU, etc.

Also, Sony can change their mind when it comes to "Cross gen" .. they are a corporation. In this case they probably wanted to ride the positive media train for a while, and did.. no big deal.

I like being lied to and even when I'm lied to I'm cool with that.

Feed me shit and I will eat it, the post.

 

[fermcr]

Digital Foundry are right. Sony has been very sketchy about cross gen titles... but nothing new, Sony are always sketchy. They aways get a free pass by the gaming community and Sony knows it...

Same thing applies to Nintendo.

 

[twilo99]

I like being lied to and even when I'm lied to I'm cool with that.

Feed me shit and I will eat it, the post.

Not saying you should be ok with it, just don't be surprised. Corporations lie and change their stance all the time...

 

[Kagey K]

Not saying you should be ok with it, just don't be surprised. Corporations lie and change their stance all the time...

It was never a change, it was fully planned and they went out of thier way to decieve, which is actually different.

 

[phil_t98]

Just watched. DF salty as anchovies.

Bad look for Sony. Bad for progress. Bad for gamers wanting finer things.

they ain’t salty it’s just Sony going back on what they said.

cerny talked about how game design would change and the SSD would help that and the limits of the slower hard drives made certain choices in game design limited.

you can only blame Sony them self for the message of believing in generations and how game design would change with the ps5

 

[Kagey K]

they ain’t salty it’s just Sony going back on what they said.

cerny talked about how game design would change and the SSD would help that and the limits of the slower hard drives made certain choices in game design limited.

you can only blame Sony them self for the message of believing in generations and how game design would change with the ps5

They did an entire video about how MS cross gen was the wrong thing to do for next gen games, but ppl ignore that and cry why don't they call out MS?

It basically said the same as this video but came out 10 months earlier.

 

[FatKingBallman]

4 cheap nextgen games that nobody cares if they where nextgen. And how do you know some of them didnt start as ps4 titles and just got internally changed to ps5 so as to pretend that they are nextgen only,

Of course xbox fan will trying to downplay 4 PS5 next-gen titles only, when his Xbox has nothing. Astro, Demon's, Returnal and Ratchet are cheap games. :/

Returnal - true my bad
DS - a PS3 game with a shiny new skin, neat... But not exclusive
Godfall - a PC game
D all-stars - true
Astro is a tech demo

Demon's Souls Remake is a true-next gen title. And it is a exclusive.
Astro in not just a tech demo. Find me a tech demo which last 8 hours. Tech demo is for example a first UE5 showcase

No need to spin it.

Still, nothing to write home about (I say this as a ps5 owner and a giant Sony fan).

Then you should know which 1st party games were released and are next-gen only if you have a PS5.

 

[Sinthor]

I really don't get why are so many people against "cross-gen" development. I don't even know why we have "generations" when it comes to consoles. Its equivalent to a dev having to only develop games for Pascal because developing for the older generation, Maxwell, will be holding everything back. That's ridiculous.

And I think Sony can finally support their older model since there is some consistency when it comes to architecture. Not sure about PS1 and PS2, but support for PS4 games on PS3 was a complete mess because of the CPU, etc.

Also, Sony can change their mind when it comes to "Cross gen" .. they are a corporation. In this case they probably wanted to ride the positive media train for a while, and did.. no big deal.

Here's why there are generations- hardware evolves and improves giving you new capabilities beyond just faster. Your analogy of using Pascal is not really complete...let me help a bit. Let's say you are coding for a device that supports Pascal v1.0. Fine. Now five years later there is another version of the product and it uses Pascal v2.0 because the language has advanced power management features let's say. Now...to stay compatible with your earlier device, you as a developer are now limited to either using Pascal v1.0 (which will work on both) or using the new Pascal v2.0 but NOT using any of it's improved advanced features because you want it to still run on that earlier device. THAT is more what we're talking about.

Here's a real world example: I was making an app for iOS (iPhone and iPad). I was required to make the app work with everything from an iPhone 6 and 3rd gen iPad up thru the new at the time iPhone X, XR and same gen iPad. I had to simplify my user interface, because I needed it to work and fit on a smaller, lower resolution iPhone 6 display just as much as the high definition new iPad display. There were some features in power management...I think it was being able to handle the save state of a device for example, that I could do using provided API's on the newer gen equipment (iPhone 8 and up as I recall) but for the earlier devices to have that functionality required me providing extra code to handle different facets of the power state.

Bottom line, I could have done more with my app, from the user interface up through the functionality provided, if I'd been able to target JUST the current generation iPhone X and iPads. But I couldn't. So it limited my code and the app.

So for games, as far as I can tell, what this support of previous generations is doing is forcing the developers to keep the same UI across PS4 and PS5, and simply upscale the resolution and frame rate on PS5 as well as adding some ray tracing. Oh and they can utilize some of the fancy haptics. MAYBE do some 3D audio. But that's it. The basic functionality of the game will be limited to what the PS4 is capable of handling though. You can look at Ratchet and Clank for an example of what NOT being limited like this can do. NO WAY they could pull off those fast transitions on PS4. So it's definitely showing more than just enhanced resolution and ray tracing.

So bottom line, yes you're right..this is a business decision for Sony that probably WILL give them more sales and revenue. But at the same time, they are limiting the need and reasons for the consumer to even go GET a PS5. Also, why cross-gen is being complained about is exactly what I've mentioned above...the fact that the games will be held back and not be as innovative as they could be if the devs could target just the PS5.

As previously mentioned...we have NO CLUE what, if anything, is even slated for release after Horizon and God of War. Maybe those will be the last two big flagship titles that are cross-gen (we can hope!). Or maybe they won't. The longer Sony clings to the PS4, the longer it will take for us to see the real power and potential of the PS5 in games. The longer Sony will also risk people deciding they don't NEED a PS5 since they maybe don't care so much about ray tracing and 4k.... Without other features and gameplay the they CANNOT get on PS4...why would they need a PS5?

 

[FatKingBallman]

Demons Souls came out February 2009.

Remake wasn't

You and others seem to care enough to enter the thread and post tho.

Just like you.

 

[FatKingBallman]

they ain’t salty it’s just Sony going back on what they said.

cerny talked about how game design would change and the SSD would help that and the limits of the slower hard drives made certain choices in game design limited.

you can only blame Sony them self for the message of believing in generations and how game design would change with the ps5

You have a best examples of the SSD usage - Returnal and Ratchet. No need to ignore it, Xbox fans

 

[Shmunter]

they ain’t salty it’s just Sony going back on what they said.

cerny talked about how game design would change and the SSD would help that and the limits of the slower hard drives made certain choices in game design limited.

you can only blame Sony them self for the message of believing in generations and how game design would change with the ps5

They were Salty about gaming being held back - namely design based on CPU & Streaming. All in unison mentioned Level design, physical interactions, game physics. Also made clear these things are unrelated to superficial gfx bling which will be there. You didn't watch, or somehow missed it for whatever reason.

Sony being lying scum is well established - and personally I will be buying cross gen games when on discount. No need to rush with my backlog. I would have made exception based on being motivated by the allurer of next gen, but that is no longer a carrot.

 

[John Wick]

The lie goes back to the first Cerny talk about the fast SSD and how that will change game design. before even revealing the games for the damn thing.

How does it go back to the Cerny talk? What Cerny stated was true. It's corporate Sony who have made these decisions.

 

[FatKingBallman]

I always think that quote is misused and taken without context as a way to meme on Sony tbh. People want to make it to be JUST about PS5 exclusive games vs cross gen when clearly it isnt

Quotes... Taken from that interview

"It's been a real rollercoaster of a year," Ryan tells us. "We realised a couple of months ago that we were going to have to spend a lot more time paying attention to the PS4 community than we had anticipated, as that community, along with everybody else in the world, went into lockdown.

"We have always felt that we had a responsibility to serve that [PS4] community for several years after the launch of PS5 and that it represented a huge business opportunity for us," Ryan says. "The numbers are quite straightforward. If you say in broad brush figures that we have a community of 100 million PS4 owners right now, and in the first couple of years... I don't know, somewhere between 15 and 25 million might migrate to PS5, that still leaves a huge number of people with PS4s. And that community is demonstrating an amazing stickiness, and willingness to stay engaged that, I think, the events of the past few months have just reinforced what we knew already.

"We have always said that we believe in generations. We believe that when you go to all the trouble of creating a next-gen console, that it should include features and benefits that the previous generation does not include. And that, in our view, people should make games that can make the most of those features.

"We do believe in generations, and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5."

Logic doesn't exist here. Sorry.

 

[Cyborg]

The first game I played on my brand new PS3 was God of War 2 and I loved it.

Sony is doing what MS and all third-party publishers are doing. They see the huge sales potential with PS4 and next-gen is a nice to have. I will always choose the next-gen version but there are a lot of people who don't have a next-gen console and are just happy to play/experience the game.

I still think the quote ''we believe in generations'' was a mistake and it was made before they could oversee the Covid-19 impact on the world.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

Ok guys, seriously just because the SSD gives an extra option of creating a game do you really think every single game going forwards from every developer would give a shit about that and always implement this new design mechanic? Look at the PS4 touchpad.....i think only KZ Shadowfall implemented it fully. Its there for 7+ years yet most use it as a pause button or to open a map. So even 5 years later if you really think EA will care about redesigning their game building philosophy, you will be dissapointed.

Also these 2 games GT7 and HFW....they are 2+ years in the making, they didnt even know how they could extract extra power yet. And what do you expect will change as far as UI for a racing game? Honestly, what can they change? You chose a car and a race starts. The loading is faster thats it.

 

[nemiroff]

Ok guys, seriously just because the SSD gives an extra option of creating a game do you really think every single game going forwards from every developer would give a shit about that and always implement this new design mechanic? Look at the PS4 touchpad.....i think only KZ Shadowfall implemented it fully. Its there for 7+ years yet most use it as a pause button or to open a map. So even 5 years later if you really think EA will care about redesigning their game building philosophy, you will be dissapointed.

Also these 2 games GT7 and HFW....they are 2+ years in the making, they didnt even know how they could extract extra power yet. And what do you expect will change as far as UI for a racing game? Honestly, what can they change? You chose a car and a race starts. The loading is faster thats it.

The transfer speed is one thing, but the absolutely terrible CPU performance was a challenge already at the launch of last gen.. Games still being planned and made with such a low bar now a generation later is not an exaggerated issue.

 

[Shmunter]

Ok guys, seriously just because the SSD gives an extra option of creating a game do you really think every single game going forwards from every developer would give a shit about that and always implement this new design mechanic? Look at the PS4 touchpad.....i think only KZ Shadowfall implemented it fully. Its there for 7+ years yet most use it as a pause button or to open a map. So even 5 years later if you really think EA will care about redesigning their game building philosophy, you will be dissapointed.

Also these 2 games GT7 and HFW....they are 2+ years in the making, they didnt even know how they could extract extra power yet. And what do you expect will change as far as UI for a racing game? Honestly, what can they change? You chose a car and a race starts. The loading is faster thats it.

Regarding GT, the speed of the ssd could make a photo quality model available immediately as you select the car. Or doing mods could have them applied in real-time as a ‘what you see is what you get’. Being on PS4 these sorts of things are simply not an option so are out the window for design parity.

Don’t let a lack of imagination dictate what is actually possible on next gen. This is the point, restrictions to what is in memory at any point in time are no longer part of the narrow path.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Perhaps my post wasn't clear: the examples you've provided are not cross-gen games and don't compare to what we're seeing with the PS5 at all.
God of War 2 was not playable on PS2 and PS3. Only on PS2
Gran Turismo 6 was not playable on PS3 and PS4. Only on PS3.
The Last of Us was not playable on PS3 and PS4. Only on PS3. In fact, it received an entirely new PS4 release a year after it was released for the PS3 because the machines were simply not compatible.

Your examples are just last gen games released after the next-gen console came out or were known about. That's entirely different; they're still generational exclusives, built to take full advantage of their respective generational machines. None of them are games billed as next-gen titles, that were then limited by having to run on last-generation machines. As I said in my post, Sony hasn't done this before, which is why no one expected it, and this is why there is push back. Please, read my posts more carefully before replying.

The rest of your post ignores what I said and goes off on tangents, so I won't respond to that.

GT2 was definitely playable on PS3 and so was GoW 2, what are you talking about? The launch PS3 had working BC for those titles.

We went from a mix of BC titles and exclusive next-generation titles to a mix of cross generation titles (with some enhanced BC ones) and exclusive next-generation titles. Not exactly something rage inducing IMHO.

Should we ask for more next generation and less cross-generation ones? Yes, for obvious reasons… min specs matter! First Party’s job is to make a case for the next generation HW without abandoning the previous console with a year or so draught like most other consoles handle next generation launches (that is a lot worse).

Is GT7 a thorny issue for their PR? Yes it is, they clearly stated it was an exclusive PS5 title and bow they are changing their tune and people are taking them to task and questioning their explanation which is fair game. Is it possible that GT7’s decision to shift it to PS4 too was finalised after the announcement? Yes, it is possible. Plausible or not is more subjective.

I think I was not going off tangents but providing context to my answer and our discussion, feel free to disregard it and ignore it of course, but if I feel it is relevant I will repost it later.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Regarding GT, the speed of the ssd could make a photo quality model available immediately as you select the car. Or doing mods could have them applied in real-time as a ‘what you see is what you get’. Being on PS4 these sorts of things are simply not an option so are out the window for design parity.

Don’t let a lack of imagination dictate what is actually possible on next gen. This is the point, restrictions to what is in memory at any point in time are no longer part of the narrow path.

The examples you presented can be handled by a runtime check though: you could be showing a loading transition in one case and skipping it in the other though. R&C would not work though.

 

[gundalf]

I understand Sony's position, they can't get enough Resources to produce PS5 consoles at scale but they need to keep selling Software to a large audience. There is no use in bringing Horizon 2 or Gran Turismo to the PS5 with only 8 million potential buyers vs 115 million on the PS4.

In the end MS was right in making the Series S, the only available next-gen console in the market, well played!

 

[EDMIX]

Any serious interrogation of this would require games journalists to actually be journalists, rather than social media figures who are terrified of getting on the wrong side of games companies because it could ruin their click rates.

Agreed. Most of what is being stated, I don't recall Sony ever confirming release dates or stating those games would NEVER be on PS4 etc. That was simply assumed by the community, but clearly they had Horizon and Spiderman cross plat, so the idea that they had more wasn't off the table and wasn't this shock as if they never did that before or something.

They should of been more transparent and open about all this,

How do you now "all this" wasn't done last minute and we are just hearing about it as they are telling their teams to start on a last gen version or something.

I mean...think about it, you knew about Spiderman being Cross gen, Demon Souls remake is not, then you know about Horizon being cross gen, Returnal is not, it means it not like this move on exclusive or cross gen was something that they kept secret when it was time to announce platforms, release dates etc.

So the fact that they are telling us GT7 and God Of War are cross gen might simply mean it wasn't planned to be or they where waiting for more development to be done before announcing release dates, platforms etc. Think about it this way, we normally get games announced where a teaser is shown and we don't have 100% all information on platforms, release dates etc.

Why now make it seem as if damn near a year plus before release (if even that), for them to announce platforms as some shocking fucking thing? The game is not coming out next month, its not even coming out this year, telling us its cross platform RIGHT NOW is being transparent.

You might as well argue they are not telling you about the existence of Ghost Of Tsushima 2 RIGHT WHEN IT STARTED and claim its not being "Transparent". Give some wiggle room for them to still actually plan the marketing and development for their games. We are now literally debating WHEN is too early for announcements of early titles, but shit we now want to know all this other info before release as if shit isn't subject to change or something? So if they are internally on the fence on that because of the pandemic, it makes sense why you didn't know of this before because it might be something very recent.


Shit, why not do that with Spiderman, why tell us its platforms at all if their aim was to not be transparent? That is literally a bigger IP then any of the shit we are even talking about, if any IP could move units on some lie, it would be that one....yet clearly we knew of it being on PS4/PS5. So neither God Of War or GT7 is coming out this year, to really be questioning transparency on information given to you not even in the damn year the title is released, is to suggest we should know all the inner workings of Sony at all times or something. We don't know all the info on Starfield and look how long ago that game was announced, but shit its their game, its their marketing campaign, they are correct to hold off on just telling people shit so early if they feel many things are subject to change. The mere fact that Sony is actually TELLING US goes against this non-transparency claim.

 

[Shmunter]

The examples you presented can be handled by a runtime check though: you could be showing a loading transition in one case and skipping it in the other though. R&C would not work though.

Eh?

 

[kuncol02]

Flight Simulator, Avowed, Perfect Dark and Everwild don't have Xbox One under platforms on the Xbox site, others like Halo Infinite do.
So I would think they are next gen only.

That's what you would think, especially that Flight Simulator would melt XOne CPU if you would try flying over cities, but from the other side we have news like that:

Microsoft Flight Simulator has been rated for Xbox One - KitGuru

Microsoft Flight Simulator released to a great deal of praise last year on the PC. The Asobo Studio-

www.kitguru.net

We will see in few days what they plan.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

Regarding GT, the speed of the ssd could make a photo quality model available immediately as you select the car. Or doing mods could have them applied in real-time as a ‘what you see is what you get’. Being on PS4 these sorts of things are simply not an option so are out the window for design parity.

Don’t let a lack of imagination dictate what is actually possible on next gen. This is the point, restrictions to what is in memory at any point in time are no longer part of the narrow path.

Its great to have imagination but like i said, do you really think they care or think the same? Right now we have people that know nothing about game development telling developers what they could do with. PS5 lol. Also, instant photo mode during a race you had in Driveclub a game from 2014 so SSD has nothing to do with it. Its just game design choice and if the developers think its worth it or not.

 

[kuncol02]

Lol. All these games were announced cross gen. if you think a company of the size of MS is able to make a mistake like that I have a bridge to sell you.

edit: excluding perfect dark. it would be logical for that game to be next-gen only

I can't find any source about Everwild and Avowed being XOne games. Their trailers don't have info about platforms at all.
Are you suggesting that Obsidian and Rare are lying?

Avowed

avowed.obsidian.net

Rare Games – Everwild

Find out about Rare’s upcoming project in development alongside Sea of Thieves

www.rare.co.uk

XBox page also clearly say it's Series X|S only.

 

[Shmunter]

Its great to have imagination but like i said, do you really think they care or think the same? Right now we have people that know nothing about game development telling developers what they could do with. PS5 lol. Also, instant photo mode during a race you had in Driveclub a game from 2014 so SSD has nothing to do with it. Its just game design choice and if the developers think its worth it or not.

You’re overthinking it. It all comes down to enablers vs limitations. Whether a dev chooses to limit themselves vs being forced to limit themselves is the sum and substance of it. This is the nature of tech advancement today, as it was yesterday, and forever will be.

 

[FatKingBallman]

I can't find any source about Everwild and Avowed being XOne games. Their trailers don't have info about platforms at all.
Are you suggesting that Obsidian and Rare are lying?

Avowed

avowed.obsidian.net

Rare Games – Everwild

Find out about Rare’s upcoming project in development alongside Sea of Thieves

www.rare.co.uk

XBox page also clearly say it's Series X|S only.

They were. Now both are not.

 

[ZehDon]

GT2 was definitely playable on PS3 and so was GoW 2, what are you talking about? The launch PS3 had working BC for those titles....

They're not cross gen titles, they're backwards compatible. Unless you somehow think Morrowind running on the Series X is somehow limiting to what Morrowind was able to do... 20 years before the Series X came out? Anyway, the rest of your post is irrelevant - I asked you to read my post more carefully before replying because you're not addressing anything I've written. You've failed to do this three times now.

Sony has not done cross-generational first party exclusive titles before. You've tried twice now to pretend isn't true, which tells me you know its true and are running apologetics. Sony presented the current generation as if they would continue clean breaks with their titles, and they mocked their competitor for being open about their cross-generation intentions. In short: Sony are paying for their dishonesty now that's it clear they're doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for. Unless you have something to add to these pretty simple facts, there's really not much more to discuss.

 

[Panajev2001a]

They're not cross gen titles, they're backwards compatible. Unless you somehow think Morrowind running on the Series X is somehow limiting to what Morrowind was able to do... 20 years before the Series X came out? Anyway, the rest of your post is irrelevant - I asked you to read my post more carefully before replying because you're not addressing anything I've written. You've failed to do this three times now.

Sony has not done cross-generational first party exclusive titles before. You've tried twice now to pretend isn't true, which tells me you know its true and are running apologetics. Sony presented the current generation as if they would continue clean breaks with their titles, and they mocked their competitor for being open about their cross-generation intentions. In short: Sony are paying for their dishonesty now that's it clear they're doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for. Unless you have something to add to these pretty simple facts, there's really not much more to discuss.

Cross generation is new, but it is an extension of that same approach of mixing support for the previous generation console and exclusive titles for the new one which has already gotten a fair share in the launch window alone. You are the one ignoring the other’s reply or we both are… .

So exclusive titles for the previous generation console (with BC support in the new one) + exclusive titles for the new generation console is a lot better than exclusive titles for the next generation console + cross generation ones? I have yet to see you argue your stance here instead of going on the outrage at Sony’s children killing dishonesty.
BTW, I am acknowledging your points, agreeing with some, and discussing them overall while you are mostly ignoring mine while accusing me of bot staying on point with yours…

You are blowing it out of proportion “paying for their dishonesty” “doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for”…

Let’s just take that last bit: “exactly”? You mean 0 exclusives vs at least 4 in the launch window…

Mocking? You take that Ryan interview as mocking them especialy considering there is no lie in that statement’s full quote… really?

 

[Clear]

GT7 - Labeled as a PS5 exclusive. Just like Ratchet, Demon Souls and Destruction All stars.

Straight up lying. Indefensible.

Oh no! Sony are terrible for adding an extra SKU to their line-up! How consumer-unfriendly that they aren't gating access to the 7th instalment in a series going back to PS1 behind ownership of an expensive supply-constrained console. The actual BASTARDS!

Has it occurred to you that adding an extra SKU isn't necessarily subtractive to the quality of the lead SKU? That likely an internal review during development would assess the viability of doing a PS4 build in terms of opportunity cost and technical feasibility and a decision would be made based on that?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Eh?

R&C showed SSD use tied to the gameplay, try to dynamically insert loading pauses wherever the SSD is pushed and see how it would work (it would be horrible).

Adding an overlay to cover the real-time (slow) changes you were describing to the car mode in GT for example on PS4 while removing said overlays on PS5 would work in many scenarios.

 

[KingT731]

Alright simple question for the gallery here...Is it lying or being deceptive if it was true when the statement was made?

 

[FatKingBallman]

Not really - at least, this is a first for Sony. What Sony first party exclusives were cross gen for the PS1/PS2, PS2/PS3, and PS3/PS4? I can't think of one, personally, but happy to be wrong on that. And that's a good part of the reason for the push back here - this hasn't happened before.

Say what you will, but in my eyes, Microsoft was pretty up front that they're first party output would be cross generational for a few years. Honest, but let's be real: not necessarily the best marketing for a next-gen console.
Sony, on the other hands, outwardly mocked that approach, with Jim Ryan in particular going in with the "we believe in generations" line. Given Sony's track record of not having cross-gen games, why would anyone doubt them this generation? Seemed pretty clear: Xbox was going to be held back by their cross gen titles, like the disastrous Halo Infinite showing, while Sony was all in on their next-gen hardware and the PlayStation 5 would be the home of the real next-gen experiences. That's pretty great marketing to have. Now it turns out Sony's biggest titles are cross-gen, they just wanted to be vague about it for the cheap marketing.

They're not cross gen titles, they're backwards compatible. Unless you somehow think Morrowind running on the Series X is somehow limiting to what Morrowind was able to do... 20 years before the Series X came out? Anyway, the rest of your post is irrelevant - I asked you to read my post more carefully before replying because you're not addressing anything I've written. You've failed to do this three times now.

Sony has not done cross-generational first party exclusive titles before. You've tried twice now to pretend isn't true, which tells me you know its true and are running apologetics. Sony presented the current generation as if they would continue clean breaks with their titles, and they mocked their competitor for being open about their cross-generation intentions. In short: Sony are paying for their dishonesty now that's it clear they're doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for. Unless you have something to add to these pretty simple facts, there's really not much more to discuss.

Cross generation is new, but it is an extension of that same approach of mixing support for the previous generation console and exclusive titles for the new one which has already gotten a fair share in the launch window alone. You are the one ignoring the other’s reply or we both are… .

So exclusive titles for the previous generation console (with BC support in the new one) + exclusive titles for the new generation console is a lot better than exclusive titles for the next generation console + cross generation ones? I have yet to see you argue your stance here instead of going on the outrage at Sony’s children killing dishonesty.
BTW, I am acknowledging your points, agreeing with some, and discussing them overall while you are mostly ignoring mine while accusing me of bot staying on point with yours…

You are blowing it out of proportion “paying for their dishonesty” “doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for”…

Let’s just take that last bit: “exactly”? You mean 0 exclusives vs at least 4 in the launch window…

Zehdon is wrong, though

Flower, Resogun, Soundshapes were all cross-gen titles. PS4/PS3/PSVita, MLBs PS3/PS4/PSV. MLBs, 07-11 i think it was PS2-PS3-PSP

Mocking? You take that Ryan interview as mocking them especialy considering there is no lie in that statement’s full quote… really?

People need to read full quote once again

 

[kuncol02]

What the hell do people even consider a "full fledged next-gen game" to be?

For one no slow walking, slow opening doors, slow swimming in boats, slow climbing and slow elevators and slow portals created to hide loading from players. You know basically half of last God of War.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Are these cross gen games going to be 70 pounds on ps5 and like 50 on ps4?

 

[ZehDon]

Cross generation is new, but it is an extension of that same approach of mixing support for the previous generation console and exclusive titles for the new one which has already gotten a fair share in the launch window alone. You are the one ignoring the other’s reply or we both are… .

Either you're not familiar with software development, or you don't understand the terms you're using. Simply put: cross-generation is not an extension of supporting individual machines with titles tuned for the individual machine's hardware; it's an entirely different approach that has some pretty decent draw backs for those buying the newer hardware. See: Halo Infinite. And I'm replying to the pieces of your posts that are actually engaging with what I've written and am discussing. I won't be drawn into false equivalences and pointless tangents because they have nothing to do with the topic at hand, no matter how much you want them to be.

You are blowing it out of proportion “paying for their dishonesty” “doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for”…

Let’s just take that last bit: “exactly”? You mean 0 exclusives vs at least 4 in the launch window…

"Blowing it out of proportion".... buy describing the situation in which Sony is on the receiving end of some bad PR for vague statements made to insinuate something they were never planning to deliver, after which a large number of media outlets, influencers, and gamers are vocally unhappy with Sony's dishonesty? One of us to describing what's happening without hyperbole, the other is pretending backwards compatibility and cross-gen titles are the same in order to defend a multi-billion dollar corporation. Might wanna look into that.

Mocking? You take that Ryan interview as mocking them especialy considering there is no lie in that statement’s full quote… really?

Well, considering we have a 12 page thread where PlayStation fans themselves were adamant, vocal, and proud that Ryan was firing shots at Phil Spencer, Halo Infinite, cross-gen games, and Xbox's strategy as a whole... yeah. Nice attempt at gas lighting - trying to walk it back by pretending no one thought Ryan was mocking Xbox's strategy just makes you look silly.

Zehdon is wrong, though

Flower, Resogun, Soundshapes were all cross-gen titles. PS4/PS3/PSVita, MLBs PS3/PS4/PSV. MLBs, 07-11 i think it was PS2-PS3-PSP...

Actually, I said I couldn't think of any - and I said I was happy to be wrong. So, thanks for adding some info here to clarify. However, looking at the titles you've listed... there's a reason I couldn't think of them. Flower and Resogun are second-party titles, not first-party exclusives, and MLB isn't exactly the same calibre a title as God of War: Ragnarok or Gran Turismo 7. Given that MLB forced Sony to develop The Show for Xbox - where it was a Gamepass day 1 title - I'm betting MLB probably had a hand in it being made for as many platforms as possible.

 

[Clear]

For one no slow walking, slow opening doors, slow swimming in boats, slow climbing and slow elevators and slow portals created to hide loading from players. You know basically half of last God of War.

Ever heard of pacing? Ever understood the need to control the flow of gameplay so as not to burn the player out? The usefulness of integrating exposition/dialogue into gameplay without cutaways?

The most galling thing about this whole topic is the offensive levels of ignorance shown about the art of game design. And a frankly moronic obsessions with doing a thing because you can *ALWAYS*, and not only when it suits what's needed situationally.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Oh no! Sony are terrible for adding an extra SKU to their line-up! How consumer-unfriendly that they aren't gating access to the 7th instalment in a series going back to PS1 behind ownership of an expensive supply-constrained console. The actual BASTARDS!

Has it occurred to you that adding an extra SKU isn't necessarily subtractive to the quality of the lead SKU? That likely an internal review during development would assess the viability of doing a PS4 build in terms of opportunity cost and technical feasibility and a decision would be made based on that?

I do not believe it is not subtractive. At best it is a new version that requires an additional team and money to port down which hurts the title profitability (I do not think titles are selling so well on PS4 to justify it if there is a PS5 version present, Ryan and Hulst will need to listen to the data one day…).

That scenario assumes a TitanFall Xbox One / Xbox 360 scenario where they had a completely different port expert team handle the Xbox 360 version or DOOM 2016 / Eternal on Switch.


That is at best… at worst it is increasing the complexity on the base game, increasing testing efforts, and likely pushing down the minimum requirements to make the PS4 version possible (not tying gameplay critical events to Ryzen 2 power on PS5 that would not scale easily at all). Min specs matter.

Same as when we were discussing about the XSS and XSX:

 

[Greggy]

Agreed. Most of what is being stated, I don't recall Sony ever confirming release dates or stating those games would NEVER be on PS4 etc. That was simply assumed by the community, but clearly they had Horizon and Spiderman cross plat, so the idea that they had more wasn't off the table and wasn't this shock as if they never did that before or something.



How do you now "all this" wasn't done last minute and we are just hearing about it as they are telling their teams to start on a last gen version or something.

I mean...think about it, you knew about Spiderman being Cross gen, Demon Souls remake is not, then you know about Horizon being cross gen, Returnal is not, it means it not like this move on exclusive or cross gen was something that they kept secret when it was time to announce platforms, release dates etc.

So the fact that they are telling us GT7 and God Of War are cross gen might simply mean it wasn't planned to be or they where waiting for more development to be done before announcing release dates, platforms etc. Think about it this way, we normally get games announced where a teaser is shown and we don't have 100% all information on platforms, release dates etc.

Why now make it seem as if damn near a year plus before release (if even that), for them to announce platforms as some shocking fucking thing? The game is not coming out next month, its not even coming out this year, telling us its cross platform RIGHT NOW is being transparent.

You might as well argue they are not telling you about the existence of Ghost Of Tsushima 2 RIGHT WHEN IT STARTED and claim its not being "Transparent". Give some wiggle room for them to still actually plan the marketing and development for their games. We are now literally debating WHEN is too early for announcements of early titles, but shit we now want to know all this other info before release as if shit isn't subject to change or something? So if they are internally on the fence on that because of the pandemic, it makes sense why you didn't know of this before because it might be something very recent.


Shit, why not do that with Spiderman, why tell us its platforms at all if their aim was to not be transparent? That is literally a bigger IP then any of the shit we are even talking about, if any IP could move units on some lie, it would be that one....yet clearly we knew of it being on PS4/PS5. So neither God Of War or GT7 is coming out this year, to really be questioning transparency on information given to you not even in the damn year the title is released, is to suggest we should know all the inner workings of Sony at all times or something. We don't know all the info on Starfield and look how long ago that game was announced, but shit its their game, its their marketing campaign, they are correct to hold off on just telling people shit so early if they feel many things are subject to change. The mere fact that Sony is actually TELLING US goes against this non-transparency claim.

It's not transparent, because they "believe in generations", remember? Jim Ryan tried to sell the "a new generation should bring new experiences" narrative to undercut MS announcing before the release of XSX that the first 2 years would be cross gen. And if you believe that they are only starting to work on the PS4 version of Ragnarok now, a year before release, you are soppy Playstation apologist with all respect.

 

[EDMIX]

It's not transparent, because they "believe in generations",

You can still believe that and still have cross gen games at the start of a generation. Resogun came to PS3 and Vita after PS4....so...you clearly can believe in generations and still do some cross gen titles at the start of a generation. So I'm sorry man, some of you guys are talking a quote of "we believe in generations" and greatly exaggerating it to mean we DON'T BELIEVE IN CROSS GEN TITLES, when nothing of the sort is ever stated by Sony. You want to run on semantics, you want to just say a quote and argue about that instead of fully reading EVERYTHING that was stated regarding that statement. I mean, think about it....if Sony is saying they always believed in generations and shit like MLB The Show was on many past gen systems at the same time it was on next gen systems, or shit like Resogun or DC Universe, it shows that the statement you are making regarding cross gen is false.

Sony does not see that quote as "we don't believe in cross gen" or anything even remotely like that. Its why you'd rather take the quote out of context then FULLY talk about the entire interview itself. I mean my god, literally look at MLB The Shows releases, on PS2, PS3, PSP etc. It proves that cross gen is not a brand new thing for Sony, in fact Sony supporting the past gen systems with support is literally a widely known thing. So MLB The Show is no different then DC Universe which is no different then Resogun, which is no different then Spiderman Miles Morales etc. Thus, any argument that they "believed" in something before yet did something different is literally bullshit, objectively we actually can look up that its a normal thing for them to do this at the start of a generation, I'd argue for most publishers it is.

I also don't believe Sony nor MS believed they'd be releasing new systems during a pandemic which means even if they didn't plan to do cross gen titles, they would have to change some things up for certain titles.

 

[FatKingBallman]

"Blowing it out of proportion".... buy describing the situation in which Sony is on the receiving end of some bad PR for vague statements made to insinuate something they were never planning to deliver, after which a large number of media outlets, influencers, and gamers are vocally unhappy with Sony's dishonesty? One of us to describing what's happening without hyperbole, the other is pretending backwards compatibility and cross-gen titles are the same in order to defend a multi-billion dollar corporation. Might wanna look into that.

If people read before what Jim Ryan said. No need to ignore it. It is right there :

"It's been a real rollercoaster of a year," Ryan tells us. "We realised a couple of months ago that we were going to have to spend a lot more time paying attention to the PS4 community than we had anticipated, as that community, along with everybody else in the world, went into lockdown.

"We have always felt that we had a responsibility to serve that [PS4] community for several years after the launch of PS5 and that it represented a huge business opportunity for us," Ryan says. "The numbers are quite straightforward. If you say in broad brush figures that we have a community of 100 million PS4 owners right now, and in the first couple of years... I don't know, somewhere between 15 and 25 million might migrate to PS5, that still leaves a huge number of people with PS4s. And that community is demonstrating an amazing stickiness, and willingness to stay engaged that, I think, the events of the past few months have just reinforced what we knew already.

"We have always said that we believe in generations. We believe that when you go to all the trouble of creating a next-gen console, that it should include features and benefits that the previous generation does not include. And that, in our view, people should make games that can make the most of those features.

"We do believe in generations, and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5."

Here Jim surely wasn't dishonest. If people just read that interview.

Well, considering we have a 12 page thread where PlayStation fans themselves were adamant, vocal, and proud that Ryan was firing shots at Phil Spencer, Halo Infinite, cross-gen games, and Xbox's strategy as a whole... yeah. Nice attempt at gas lighting - trying to walk it back by pretending no one thought Ryan was mocking Xbox's strategy just makes you look silly.

But Jim Ryan launched next-gen titles only ( alongside with cross-gen titles ). Yeah, ads for games, particularly GT7 was misleading.

 

[FatKingBallman]

It's not transparent, because they "believe in generations", remember? Jim Ryan tried to sell the "a new generation should bring new experiences" narrative to undercut MS announcing before the release of XSX that the first 2 years would be cross gen. And if you believe that they are only starting to work on the PS4 version of Ragnarok now, a year before release, you are soppy Playstation apologist with all respect.

Jim's words

"We do believe in generations, and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5.""

So, what's is the problem, Xbox fan??

 

[Panajev2001a]

Either you're not familiar with software development, or you don't understand the terms you're using. Simply put: cross-generation is not an extension of supporting individual machines with titles tuned for the individual machine's hardware; it's an entirely different approach that has some pretty decent draw backs for those buying the newer hardware. See: Halo Infinite.

BC has even worse drawbacks for those buying newer hardware. I understand the terms I am using as well as a modicum of software development too, you are pedantically focused on a detail and IMHO missing the forest for the trees so to speak.

I understand the difference between simple BC, BC titles with patches (see XOX and PS4 Pro), and cross generation software, but for a user the difference between a title designed for PS2 and coming out after PS3 already released (running on PS3 in BC mode) and a title running on both PS4 and PS5 with runtime checks to activate or modify some features depending on the HW it is running on is that the latter will deliver better graphics, potentially need control methods/controller features, shorter loading times/etc…

—> “So exclusive titles for the previous generation console (with BC support in the new one) + exclusive titles for the new generation console is a lot better than exclusive titles for the next generation console + cross generation ones?”

"Blowing it out of proportion".... buy describing the situation in which Sony is on the receiving end of some bad PR for vague statements made to insinuate something they were never planning to deliver, after which a large number of media outlets, influencers, and gamers are vocally unhappy with Sony's dishonesty? One of us to describing what's happening without hyperbole, the other is pretending backwards compatibility and cross-gen titles are the same in order to defend a multi-billion dollar corporation. Might wanna look into that.

Yes, you are owing it out of proportions based basically on one game (GT7) and taking some quotes out of context or adding meaning to them beyond what they were stating directly. Fine you are not the only one taking Sony to task over this and there are outlets which are thinking of terrible issues with GT7 that never came out when they were thinking about Forza… no wait, it was great as games scales easily and min specs did not matter…

Still, you said:
“doing exactly what they mocked their competitor for”…

Let’s just take that last bit: “exactly”? You mean 0 exclusives vs at least 4 in the launch window…

Well, considering we have a 12 page thread where PlayStation fans themselves were adamant, vocal, and proud that Ryan was firing shots at Phil Spencer, Halo Infinite, cross-gen games, and Xbox's strategy as a whole... yeah. Nice attempt at gas lighting - trying to walk it back by pretending no one thought Ryan was mocking Xbox's strategy just makes you look silly.

Ah well, a NeoGAF thread is proof Ryan was badly mocking Xbox strategy and should be crucified for it… ok… let alone any sense of nuance in how you view the full quote or context based on PS handling