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[CrisKre]

Have you played the game though?

From my experience, the game is very different in the areas that matter when it comes to differentiating it from other games in it's type.

Would you say that Halo looks and plays like CoD or Half Life? Or that Gears of War looks and plays like Uncharted? Of course not. They occupy a similar genre, and utilize the third person shooter mechanic, but they are very different in the game play fundamentals and overall tone and feel of the game.

PBR and Smash are the same. They occupy the same genre. No one is denying that PBR is, on the surface, very similar to Smash, but at the end of the day, the games play fundamentally different, and until you actually get the game in your hands and realize that first hand, you will continue to be like every one else who have their heads in the sand about the differences in the game that set them apart.

A video game is more than just the genre it's in. If a game isn't defined by it's rules, then what it is? What sets Monopoly apart from Clue, or Candyland, or Life? They're both board games, so they can't be different, right? The RULES, are what sets them apart.

The rules of PBR and Smash are different. Both sets of rules are fun (in the same way that Monopoly and Life have different rules, but are both fun, and for different reasons). In the end, that's what matters more than just aesthetic similarities.

Also, the physics and controls are VERY different between the two. Anyone that's played both can attest to this. You're wrong about the game being a rip off. I know you'd like to think that you're right about this, but you honestly have no sort of information to base this opinion off of besides screens and videos. Unless of course you've played the game. If you have, then please, tell me why you think both games are the same. I honestly want to know this from someone who has played both.

Check out the beta thread if you are really curious about what people that have played the game think about it. It's changed a lot of minds (both positive and negative) of people that went into the game with a "this is just like Smash" mentality.

Some people like that it's different. Some people are disappointed that it's different. But at least they've played the game and have formed that opinion on experience.

For the empht time, YES, i have played it. I am aware of the diferences and still I think its a rip off. Less fun at that too.

 

[TDLink]

I dunno what you refer to high standard but I probably get annoyed If I was a developer and Miyamoto said casually that my studio was a creative bankrupt because he saw 5 minutes of gameplay.



And I'm allowed to criticize that opinion.



So that makes it right to give a misinformed opinion?



So actually you give him a high standard.



But he is not an avarage person, even for your standards. He should know better.

What? Saying he is an artist doesn't hold him to a high standard, it simply means that is the perspective he is coming from and you should take it into account when assessing his statement. It doesn't mean it is more right or wrong because he is one just that it is easy to see how he personally thinks it is lacking in creativity since he deals in creativity. Also, if I was a developer I really wouldn't care what other random people thought about my work. Maybe a Miyamoto saying it was dogshit would be hurtful but in the end in any creative endeavour you need to believe in what you are doing. No matter what you do there will always be detractors too. Where would we be as a society if everyone gave up just because certain people said "that looks stupid you may as well give up now"?

All of his games are pretty much DMC with a different coat of paint.

Viewtiful Joe is basically DMC in 2D.
Bayonetta is basically DMC after he couldn't make DMC anymore.
Project P-100 is basically DMC with an overhead camera and the lots of dudes gimmick.

The only exception is Okami, which, as has been established many times in this thread, is a blatant Zelda ripoff.

So it's kinda funny for him to call out anyone else for creative bankruptsy.

What?...I don't even...Just...No. Just No.

Hell Viewtiful Joe looks like a ripoff of those old 2d arcade sidescrolling beat-em-up by Kamiya's standards. Do I know if they actually play like a ripoff, nope, I've never played the game, not needed!

Without knowing the deeper intricacies of Viewtiful Joe you can instantly see from watching gameplay of the first level that it also includes Platforming and acrobatics...neither of which were staples of old 2D arcade beat-em-ups and help it to define itself apart from them.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

For the empht time, YES, i have played it. I am aware of the diferences and still I think its a rip off. Less fun at that too.

And like we said many times, give us a detailed list of examples and not one liners.

 

[MisterHero]

SFII isn't even the first fighter of its presentation style, but for a game as big as it was, and for as many 'imitators' as it spawned, you could easily discern SFII from such titles lited below.

Here are the immediate presentation differences. I haven't played them in a while so I might get a couple wrong.

Fatal Fury --> Fighting in 2 planes (foreground/background)
Art of Fighting --> Power meter, character sprites can become battle damaged, scaling graphics
Mortal Kombat --> Gorey combined with the appeal of digitized actors
Samurai Shodown --> Power/Frustration Meter, characters can lose weapons
King of Fighters --> Team play, IIRC teammates even appear in background
SF Alpha --> Narrative prequel to SFII, based on character appearances, improved Super move system
SF III --> An advanced evolution of the SFII, with better graphics and custom Super Arts meters
Darkstalkers --> The character designs which make even SFII's sprites look less cartoony
X-Men --> Stackable super meter, super jumps
Marvel --> Infinity Gems
Capcom VS. SNK --> Team play, Special meters based on Groove selection
SvC Chaos --> straight SNK-style gameplay, with gorgeous SNK-style sprites

These games are not straight copies, and you can see significant gameplay differences immediately just by looking at the games. Discerning Smash from PSASBR isn't as quick, and (as worn out as the reference is) the Youtube incident only cements that claim.

Sony's intent aside, there are ways to deal with it. SNK and Capcom have openly spoofed each other, though I don't think Nintendo or Sony have the same sense of humor.*

Comparing this to "SFII vs imitators" isn't doing PSASBR any favors.

*You know what? It just occurred to me that I'd find it hilarious and amazing if Sega copied Smash. Even after Sonic the Fighters and Fighters Megamix, I'd find a Sega Smash-style game more acceptable than this. Maybe it's because Nintendo and Sega had a much more humorous rivalry. Maybe I want it because it doesn't exist.

All of his games are pretty much DMC with a different coat of paint.

Viewtiful Joe is basically DMC in 2D.
Project P-100 is basically DMC with an overhead camera and the lots of dudes gimmick.

So it's kinda funny for him to call out anyone else for creative bankruptsy.

wow

the sarcasm wasn't even worth it dude

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

For the empht time, YES, i have played it. I am aware of the diferences and still I think its a rip off. Less fun at that too.

'tar quote

so how is it a rip off in terms of game mechanics?

 

[Mesoian]

Are people in this thread seriously suggesting that Kamiya is ripping himself off?

 

[KevinCow]

Indeed. Clearly he keeps recycling DMC because in DMC you hit stuff with things and in his other games you hit other stuff with things too.

This thread just keeps giving.

He keeps recycling DMC because he has made literally nothing except combo-focused character action games.

On top of that, I'd say he's absolutely terrible at many aspects of game development, like cameras, level design, pacing, button layouts, accessibility, story, cutscenes that aren't painfully embarrassing to watch and don't go on for way too long... basically everything except combat systems.

I look at games like God of War and Darksiders, which may lack the depth of Kamiya's combat systems, but I find much more fun because literally every other aspect of these games is developed better than Kamiya's games.

 

[Gorillaz]

For the empht time, YES, i have played it. I am aware of the diferences and still I think its a rip off. Less fun at that too.

Can you go into detail just curious.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Dam Hideki is a straight up G.

 

[Kacho]

Are people in this thread seriously suggesting that Kamiya is ripping himself off?

Yes.

 

[Risette]

He keeps recycling DMC because he has made literally nothing except combo-focused character action games.

On top of that, I'd say he's absolutely terrible at many aspects of game development, like cameras, level design, pacing, button layouts, accessibility, story, cutscenes that aren't painfully embarrassing to watch and don't go on for way too long... basically everything except combat systems.

I look at games like God of War and Darksiders, which may lack the depth of Kamiya's combat systems, but I find much more fun because literally every other aspect of these games is developed better than Kamiya's games.

Are you trolling?

First Okami was a Zelda ripoff but now he's developed literally nothing but DMC clones? If you're trolling, you need to be consistent.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

What? Saying he is an artist doesn't hold him to a high standard, it simply means that is the perspective he is coming from and you should take it into account when assessing his statement.

So is, if not high, a different standard.

It doesn't mean it is more right or wrong because he is one just that it is easy to see how he personally thinks it is lacking in creativity since he deals in creativity.

And he is not the only one, and many will probably disagree.

Also, if I was a developer I really wouldn't care what other random people thought about my work.

You contradict it in the next quote:

Maybe a Miyamoto saying it was dogshit would be hurtful but in the end in any creative endeavour you need to believe in what you are doing.

Agree with the last part

No matter what you do there will always be detractors too. Where would we be as a society if everyone gave up just because certain people said "that looks stupid you may as well give up now"?

So you are saying that Superbot are morally okay to develop this game even if someone call its a Amoral Rip Off.

Well, we agree in that.

 

[Meatvillain]

I know this doesn't contribute to "discussion" at all but holy shit we're up to 29 pages on this!? Really!? Get a grip, Internet.

 

[Coolbgdog12]

As a fan of PASBR, this literally makes me sick. How can this man not like a game that I like?? I mean i played it and enjoyed it so much and he hasn't!! I think this warrants an investigation in his home to see what games he has. I'm sure his manifold duties won't be disturbed too much.


........
Fuck him.

 

[Clairvoyance]

He keeps recycling DMC because he has made literally nothing except combo-focused character action games.

On top of that, I'd say he's absolutely terrible at many aspects of game development, like cameras, level design, pacing, button layouts, accessibility, story, cutscenes that aren't painfully embarrassing to watch and don't go on for way too long... basically everything except combat systems.

I look at games like God of War and Darksiders, which may lack the depth of Kamiya's combat systems, but I find much more fun because literally every other aspect of these games is developed better than Kamiya's games.

lol. your posts are like cancer to my brain.

 

[TDLink]

Yes, there is only so much you can do aobut that. But it's not much of a difference for him to call people out like that, you create your games and let others create theirs.

He can call out whoever he wants for whatever he wants really. Freedom of speech is a thing he chose to exercise. That is basically all there is to it. I doubt his comments are going to affect the devs of this game and they really shouldn't. The point was though Bayonetta is an evolution on DMC in a very visible way, which those videos prove.

Are people in this thread seriously suggesting that Kamiya is ripping himself off?

Yup and it's pretty stupid.

 

[ohlawd]

post

Dude I thought you were being sarcastic earlier. To see you post.... THIS.... oh lord I may have to sit down for this.

 

[Forever]

Are people in this thread seriously suggesting that Kamiya is ripping himself off?

They've been doing it for about twenty pages now, I don't think they realize how it looks.

They dun lost their minds.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Yes.

Well, a writer or film director can reused various plot points, words or narrative mechanisms. Is not inherently a bad thing, as is best is Style... as is worse is ripping or repeating himself.

I thin that is what KevinCow is trying to say.

 

[Thoraxes]

They've been doing it for about twenty pages now, I don't think they realize how it looks.

They dun lost their minds.

Wait, it's still going on? I thought after it was pointed out a million times on page 2 on that one guy it would've stopped.

 

[Forever]

Wait, it's still going on? I thought after it was pointed out a million times on page 2 on that one guy it would've stopped.

They now know he made DMC. They still think Bayonetta is a ripoff. Of DMC.

Let that sink in.

 

[Boss Man]

I suspect this might be one of those threads that turn into a graveyard.

The thread itself was a planned troll.


I worry that someone is just sitting, waiting for us to get it all out lol.

 

[TDLink]

So is, if not high, a different standard.

Looking at a person's comment from their perspective based on their occupation and experiences have nothing to do with regarding their opinion in a "standard".

And he is not the only one, and many will probably disagree.

Ok? That's fine.

You contradict it in the next quote:

I didn't contradict anything. My point was you should not let someone else's comments affect your work.

So you are saying that Superbot are morally okay to develop this game even if someone call its a Amoral Rip Off.

Well, we agree in that.

You kind of need to be. Otherwise how are you going to get anything done? No matter what you do in life there will always be people saying you can't or it's stupid or it's bad or you need to do it some other way. The idea is to not give a fuck and do what you set out to do, whatever that may be.

 

[WrenchNinja]

You don't think intent counts for anything? "I'm going to create a game mechanically inspired by this other game," versus, "We're going to leverage the popularity of our corporate mascots in the same exact manner as our competitors." And, on the other hand, my hands-on time with the game has shown to me that they've done a pretty poor job of that, not understanding what makes Smash Bros so endearing, while simultaneously putting out a game that simply doesn't feel as good to play (again, to me).

Intent means jack shit. At least you played it.

 

[diamount]

He can call out whoever he wants for whatever he wants really. Freedom of speech is a thing he chose to exercise. That is basically all there is to it. I doubt his comments are going to affect the devs of this game and they really shouldn't. The point was though Bayonetta is an evolution on DMC in a very visible way, which those videos prove.



Yup and it's pretty stupid.

Sure, he has the freedom to look like an ignorant jackass. But no it really isn't an evolution, it's a combo based game just like DMC was, there is not an evolutionary leap by any stretch. An evolution would to go pass that. But we can do this all day - it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me.

 

[KevinCow]

Are people in this thread seriously suggesting that Kamiya is ripping himself off?

He's not ripping himself off. He just doesn't have much range as a developer. He basically had one idea, one hit, with DMC's character action combat system, and he's been presenting it in different ways ever since, all while failing to become any better at the many aspects of game development that he's bad at.

Are you trolling?

First Okami was a Zelda ripoff but now he's developed literally nothing but DMC clones? If you're trolling, you need to be consistent.

I figured that adding "Except Okami, which is a Zelda ripoff" was unnecessary, on account of I mentioned that in the previous post.

 

[Forever]

I suspect this might be one of those threads that turn into a graveyard.

The thread itself was a planned troll.

How cute.

 

[Risette]

I figured that adding "Except Okami, which is a Zelda ripoff" was unnecessary, on account of I mentioned that in the previous post.

But you also praised Darksiders, which is a ripoff of Zelda and DMC...

Again with the inconsistent trolling.

 

[TDLink]

Sure, he has the freedom to look like an ignorant jackass. But no it really isn't an evolution, it's a combo based game just like DMC was, there is not an evolutionary leap by any stretch. An evolution would to go pass that. But we can do this all day - it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me.

At the risk of getting people super angry at me, DMC is not a combo based game. It's more hack and slash-y. You learn different abilities and it is possible to create combos by combining some in certain orders, which is a lot of fun. It isn't the goal or core of the game though. Elaborate combos -are- the focus of Bayonetta's combat.

 

[Uno Venova]

Can you go into detail just curious.

'tar quote

so how is it a rip off in terms of game mechanics?

And like we said many times, give us a detailed list of examples and not one liners.

I'm interested in his reasoning too.

 

[Giant Panda]

Without knowing the deeper intricacies of Viewtiful Joe you can instantly see from watching gameplay of the first level that it also includes Platforming and acrobatics...neither of which were staples of old 2D arcade beat-em-ups and help it to define itself apart from them.

No, not really. The first video at a first glance looked pretty smilar to x-men. Could you see some small differences though? Yes. Just like you can immediately see a difference in the meters for for PAS.

 

[Raonak]

It's obviously a SSB ripoff, but just dismissing it without even playing it is a little stupid imo.

FPS's were once called doom clones. now it's a genre. same thing will happen to smash like games.

He himself basically created the character action genre with DMC. i suspect thats maybe why he's upset?

 

[revolverjgw]

SFII isn't even the first fighter of its presentation style, but for a game as big as it was, and for as many 'imitators' as it spawned, you could easily discern SFII from such titles lited below.

Here are the immediate presentation differences. I haven't played them in a while so I might get a couple wrong.

Fatal Fury --> Fighting in 2 planes (foreground/background)
Art of Fighting --> Power meter, character sprites can become battle damaged, scaling graphics
Mortal Kombat --> Gorey combined with the appeal of digitized actors
Samurai Shodown --> Power/Frustration Meter, characters can lose weapons
King of Fighters --> Team play, IIRC teammates even appear in background
SF Alpha --> Narrative prequel to SFII, based on character appearances, improved Super move system
SF III --> An advanced evolution of the SFII, with better graphics and custom Super Arts meters
Darkstalkers --> The character designs which make even SFII's sprites look less cartoony
X-Men --> Stackable super meter, super jumps
Marvel --> Infinity Gems
Capcom VS. SNK --> Team play, Special meters based on Groove selection
SvC Chaos --> straight SNK-style gameplay, with gorgeous SNK-style sprites

These games are not straight copies, and you can see significant gameplay differences immediately just by looking at the games. Discerning Smash from PSASBR isn't as quick, and (as worn out as the reference is) the Youtube incident only cements that claim.

Sony's intent aside, there are ways to deal with it. SNK and Capcom have openly spoofed each other, though I don't think Nintendo or Sony have the same sense of humor.*

Comparing this to "SFII vs imitators" isn't doing PSASBR any

I just see a bunch of cosmetic crap and mostly fluff mechanical stuff in your list. Doesn't strike as as any different than All Stars.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I suspect this might be one of those threads that turn into a graveyard.

The thread itself was a planned troll.

Well, Forever can call everyone butthurt and incite trolling.

CrisKre can say that saying a opinion not matter how misinformed or intellectually dishonest it is, is not morally wrong. And don't bother saying examples of why.

But god forbids that someone says that Kamiya is not in the right to be the only one to modify an idea of a game where he doesn't own the IP, doesn't own the gameplay, the genre and that specific idea. And that someone can actually repeat (or rip off if you want to be negative) of his own work.

 

[Forever]

Well, Forever can call everyone butthurt and incite trolling.

Wow, you really are butthurt. Did I touch a nerve?

Funny thing is, I was inspired by (ripped off) your little support group. Check the timestamps.

It's kinda sad that you and the Corndog have been reduced to stealth ban begging, but not surprising.

 

[KevinCow]

But you also praised Darksiders, which is a ripoff of Zelda and DMC...

Again with the inconsistent trolling.

Did I say that Okami was bad?

I liked Okami.

I think you'll see that many of my posts in this thread have been about how a game being a blatant ripoff isn't inherently a bad thing.

I like Viewtiful Joe. I liked what I played of Project P-100. I thought Bayonetta was garbage, but that was mainly because of the horrible jpop and abysmal character and art design; the gameplay itself seemed pretty fun, if awfully inaccessible.

I'm not saying he's a bad developer (well, except for the many things about game development that he's bad at). I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of calling out someone else's lack of creativity when he, himself, is far from the most creative guy in the industry.

I brought up Darksiders as an example of a game that was heavily inspired by Kamiya's character action combat system, but presented it in a much more enjoyable package.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

How cute.

In other news, I find it endlessly amusing that the other thread has now transformed exclusively into a support group for the butthurt to console each other after that smackdown from The King.

Cute.

 

[Silent_Ocarina]

The term rip-off carries a negative connotation. I wouldn't call PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale a rip-off, but I definitely understand why many call it one.

People have mentioned the differing mechanics numerous times. Yes, Battle Royale plays differently than Nintendo's iteration, but I have a hard time believing that it isn't the direct result of Super Smash Bros.

 

[prwxv3]

Wow, you really are butthurt. Did I touch a nerve?

Funny thing is, I was inspired by (ripped off) your little support group. Check the timestamps.

It's kinda sad that you and the Corndog have been reduced to stealth ban begging, but not surprising.

That support group has criticised the game more then this thread thats for sure.

 

[Instro]

KevinCow is trying to get people to ragequit gaf like he did to Segata. Your tricks won't work on me!

 

[Forever]

Cute.

As expected, you have no response.

Addendum: I absolutely love how you're trying to make the butthurt thing into a big deal while being completely oblivious that it was a direct reference to your thread.

Also note that no one on Team Kamiya ever called for a ban even when B.O.O.M started doing his thing on page 22. You and Corndog (and anyone else pitching a fit in the support group) should probably take a step back and reconsider which side is actually acting all butthurt.

#teamkamiya

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

That support group has criticised the game more then this thread thats for sure.

I don't have a single post in that thread, I'm only here because I disagree with Kamiya in his concept of ripping off.

But for some reason I'm a fanboy.

 

[Risette]

Did I say that Okami was bad?

I liked Okami.

I think you'll see that many of my posts in this thread have been about how a game being a blatant ripoff isn't inherently a bad thing.

I like Viewtiful Joe. I liked what I played of Project P-100. I thought Bayonetta was garbage, but that was mainly because of the horrible jpop and abysmal character and art design; the gameplay itself seemed pretty fun, if awfully inaccessible.

I'm not saying he's a bad developer (well, except for the many things about game development that he's bad at). I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of calling out someone else's lack of creativity when he, himself, is far from the most creative guy in the industry.

I brought up Darksiders as an example of a game that was heavily inspired by Kamiya's character action combat system, but presented it in a much more enjoyable package.

Well, I disagree with your points in any case.

"Inaccessible" games don't exist, only players unable to grasp the mechanics of a game. His button layout choices have improved from DMC1 (triangle to jump lol), his level design is fairly good (DMC1 in particular has great level design), story and cutscenes are irrelevant, pacing ability is okay but not excellent like Mikami...

Did I miss anything? Also there's no jpop in Bayonetta, lol.

 

[Kacho]

It's now 1 PM in Japan and there hasn't been a single tweet from Kamiya today.

 

[Maxrunner]

Try playing PS All Stars exactly like you play SSB and see how far it gets you. There's a difference between being inspired by something and ripping it off.

It still a rip off

 

[Kurod]

It's now 1 PM in Japan and there hasn't been a single tweet from Kamiya today.

He's probably just sitting back and enjoying his work like when Lardass created the barf-o-rama in "Stand by me".


Just sitting there and smiling while everyone is spewing vomit all over each other.

 

[News Bot]

This thread is everything wrong with GAF.

 

[KalBalboa]

It's clearly inspired by Smash Bros, but it looks like an improvement with a unique fighting system. Nostalgia is also a hard thing to label as a "creative concept" to copy, and I think it's about time PlayStation was allowed to showcase theirs.

Calling it "just a ripoff" seems reductive and a bit pointlessly disparaging, considering the Superbot guys have openly admitted that SSB was something they took significant cues from.

 

[Terra Firma]

Whatever. The game will be released and judged on its merits (hopefully) and it won't matter one bit whether it is a ripoff or a completely original game.

People who are butthurt are the ones that are complaining that it is a ripoff. Everyone knows that the game borrows liberally from the concept of SSB but you clenching your butts in protest isn't going to change the fact that it is going to be released and many people are looking forward to it and will buy it.

 

[KevinCow]

"Inaccessible" games don't exist, only players unable to grasp the mechanics of a game.

Bayonetta is inaccessible because it has an extremely steep difficulty curve in normal difficulty - you're regularly facing enemies who can take off half your health in one hit by like the third level - and if you try to play on any easier difficulty, it changes the control scheme to basically play the game for you and become laughably boring.

It's inaccessible because it does an exceedingly poor job at easing you into any new game mechanics. It just throws shit at you, and then suddenly you're dead because you didn't figure it out in the two to three seconds it gave you to figure things out. It throws new enemies at you who can only be damaged by X attack and who damage you if you try any other attack, then doesn't even attempt to explain this to the player, so the only way to get by is by sheer trial and error. Maybe this just makes the game HARDCORE or whatever the fuck, for the people who like bashing their face against a wall until they finally figure it out by chance. It's still really inaccessible. That, combined with the utterly horrible graphics and music, are why the game flopped.

If you truly believe inaccessible games don't exist, go sit down in front of a fucking flight simulator and manually take off.

Also there's no jpop in Bayonetta, lol.

Then what the fuck do you call this garbage?

Whatever the hell genre that song is, it could have single-handedly ruined the entire game, even if it wasn't for the countless other complaints I have with it.