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[James Sawyer Ford]

I think it's short sighted for a console that needs to remain relevant and developer friendly for the next 6 years. So unified memory structure is more like it. 4-8 GB of DDR3 (or DDR4 if we're lucky) with healthy dose of eDRAM should lend enough flexibility to developers for asset management.

What is so great about a unified RAM structure?

PCs have had a split RAM structure for years with no problems.

Xbox 360 had more RAM due to less OS resources (they fit it all on a smaller foot print than PS3's OS). Which is why some ports features better textures.

eDRAM comes with too many problems and is costly, I just don't see the benefits of using it over a substantial amount of speedy RAM that gets the job done (2 GB of GDDR5)

 

[RoboPlato]

My images got better.

And blurring is still >>> shimmering, temporally aliased images (which is what you get when you have nothing but post-AA).

Personally, I'm hoping we see universal usage of SMAA 2x/4x in next-gen games. I'd say TXAA as well, but seeing as how all the new consoles are running with AMD GPUs, well...

Sony did come up with its own MLAA solution on an nVidia card which was pretty much reserved to AMD cards so we could see something like that for next gen. I would love SMAA 2x or 4x. I know CryTek has their T2x SMAA running on current gen for Crysis 3.

 

[i-Lo]

Luminous has pretty great cloth modeling judging by their former videos. SVOGI (UE4's lighting model) is incredibly expensive however, but can be really cool.

Unreal Engine 4 also seems to be at a somwhat less advanced state of development than Luminous in terms of visuals since they seem to have focused tremendously on building their tools first, whereas Square Enix focused on converting and rendering assets from a CG production into their game engine, but the engine is still not usable to even start development a game in a fulltime manner, whereas UE4 is already being used by a lot of studios.

Take a look at this comparison video (Cam). Look at the clothing animation on the left (pre-rendered) and right (which is incomplete and most likely real time). I am not 100% sure (my speaker's aren't working properly atm) if there is more to this gulf in animation besides the luxury of being pre-rendered.

 

[Nirolak]

Oh, that's not so bad. Considering what you said and the fact that Square have licensed UE4 I was expecting something like early 2014 at the earliest.

While Square Enix does have some Unreal Engine usage in Japan, I think that was mostly for Eidos.

 

[Horse Armour]

What is so great about a unified RAM structure?

PCs have had a split RAM structure for years with no problems.

Xbox 360 had more RAM due to less OS resources (they fit it all on a smaller foot print than PS3's OS). Which is why some ports features better textures.

eDRAM comes with too many problems and is costly, I just don't see the benefits of using it over a substantial amount of speedy RAM that gets the job done (2 GB of GDDR5)

Since when have PCs not had RAM troubles? VRAM on PCs is a massive limiting factor where PC games rely on caching tons of data onto the main RAM. If instead of having a split 2GB GDDR5 and 8+GB of DDR3, PCs had something like 4GB of GDDR5, you can bet that PC games would look and run a lot better than they do. You're definitely going to see a lot of fairly capable GPUs struggling to run early next gen ports due to their relatively low amounts of VRAM compared to their computing power.

 

[Nirolak]

Take a look at this comparison video (Cam). Look at the clothing animation on the left (pre-rendered) and right (which is incomplete and most likely real time). I am not 100% sure (my speaker's aren't working properly atm) if there is more to this gulf in animation besides the luxury of being pre-rendered.

To see their cloth sim in a more isolated environment:

1.) http://www.famitsu.com/news/201110/11051673.html

2.) Scroll down to ▲粗いモデル（左）がテッセレーション後に、滑らかな外観のモデル（中）になり、その後ディスプレイスメントマッピングが用いられ、リアルなモデルに。

3.) Select the second video (the one below the video that has a shirt-pants full body thing).

 

[Horse Armour]

Take a look at this comparison video (Cam). Look at the clothing animation on the left (pre-rendered) and right (which is incomplete and most likely real time). I am not 100% sure (my speaker's aren't working properly atm) if there is more to this gulf in animation besides the luxury of being pre-rendered.

Yikes, yeah, the real time cloth physics looks a lot worse than the pre rendered. Let's hope they get that up to scratch.

 

[SniperHunter]

How many fucking engines does Square enix really need? The company is batshit crazy!

Luminous engine - I guess this is exclusive for Square Enix Japan
Glacier Engine 2.0 (Hitman Absolution)
Unreal engine 4 (recently licensed)

WTF?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Since when have PCs not had RAM troubles? VRAM on PCs is a massive limiting factor where PC games rely on caching tons of data onto the main RAM. If instead of having a split 2GB GDDR5 and 8+GB of DDR3, PCs had something like 4GB of GDDR5, you can bet that PC games would look and run a lot better than they do. You're definitely going to see a lot of fairly capable GPUs struggling to run early next gen ports due to their relatively low amounts of VRAM compared to their computing power.

Of course having 4 GB of GDDR5 would be a massive improvement over 2 GB of GDDR5.

The slower RAM is more of a limiting factor, which is why I don't see it being a good idea to have 8 GB of DDR3 + eDRAM.

Basically you're going to see next-gen consoles with either set-up:

1) 2 GB of GDDR5 + 6GB of DDR3/4

2) 8 GB of DDR3/4 + eDRAM


4 GB of GDDR5 would be awesome, but I don't see it happening due to cost. But of either option, 1 is absolutely preferable IMHO.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I think it's short sighted for a console that needs to remain relevant and developer friendly for the next 6 years. So unified memory structure is more like it. 4-8 GB of DDR3 (or DDR4 if we're lucky) with healthy dose of eDRAM should lend enough flexibility to developers for asset management.

The demo uses 1.8GB of VRAM , i wonder how much edram they would need .
Also you seem to be forgetting DDR3 is not going to be relevant in next 2 to 3 years .
I rather we get as much GDDR5 as possible even if it mean less DDR3.

Having a system with 4 GDDR5 ( mostly like not going to happen ) would be amazing even if only had a little amount of DDR3 .
Also i really impress with there engine it's not about brute force\ using all the latest techs but about making things look good not using much power .

 

[i-Lo]

To see their cloth sim in a more isolated environment:

1.) http://www.famitsu.com/news/201110/11051673.html

2.) Scroll down to ▲粗いモデル（左）がテッセレーション後に、滑らかな外観のモデル（中）になり、その後ディスプレイスメントマッピングが用いられ、リアルなモデルに。

3.) Select the second video (the one below the video that has a shirt-pants full body thing).

That looked very impressive. Question is, will they be able to pull it off real time when it's not in vacuum. A reason why I have more faith in Apex clothing is primarily because we've seen it in action already. Also, thanks for taking the trouble to find those examples.

4 GB of GDDR5 would be awesome, but I don't see it happening due to cost. But of either option, 1 is absolutely preferable IMHO.

The biggest obstacle to integrating 4GB of GDDR5 is its chip density which is half of DDR3 (and DDR4) so you need twice the number of chips on the motherboard as DDR3. This can cause design, heat and yield issues. This will inevitably drive up the cost. While both Sony and MS may sell their consoles initially at loss, neither one of them would like to be held behind on the way to get to black and then green by a single component having such a huge influence.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That looked very impressive. Question is, will they be able to pull it off real time when it's not in vacuum. A reason why I have more faith in Apex clothing is primarily because we've seen it in action already. Also, thanks for taking the trouble to find those examples.



The biggest obstacle to integrating 4GB of GDDR5 is its chip density which is half of DDR3 (and DDR4) so you need twice the number of chips on the motherboard as DDR3. This can cause design, heat and yield issues. This will inevitably drive up the cost. While both Sony and MS may sell their consoles initially at loss, neither one of them would like to be held behind on the way to get to black and then green by a single component having such a huge influence.

I agree, but it doesn't explain to me why having a split architecture is so bad compared to a unified one.

I'd much rather they get at least 2 GB of GDDR5 in the consoles as VRAM than to do a split pool of slower ram with eDRAM

 

[SapientWolf]

Since when have PCs not had RAM troubles? VRAM on PCs is a massive limiting factor where PC games rely on caching tons of data onto the main RAM. If instead of having a split 2GB GDDR5 and 8+GB of DDR3, PCs had something like 4GB of GDDR5, you can bet that PC games would look and run a lot better than they do. You're definitely going to see a lot of fairly capable GPUs struggling to run early next gen ports due to their relatively low amounts of VRAM compared to their computing power.

1.5GB VRAM will let you run pretty much everything maxed at 1080p on the PC unless you want excessive AA. You don't really need 4GB now unless you're doing triple monitor resolutions or 4k gaming. I seriously doubt that next gen consoles will render anything higher than 1080p, and most will choose 720p. I also think that they'll go with post process AA instead of MSAA.

Current games aren't designed around 8GB of RAM so who knows what that would bring to the table. All that memory just goes to waste.

 

[DieH@rd]

How many fucking engines does Square enix really need? The company is batshit crazy!

Luminous engine - I guess this is exclusive for Square Enix Japan
Glacier Engine 2.0 (Hitman Absolution)
Unreal engine 4 (recently licensed)

WTF?

They licensed UE4 and said that they will not force Luminous engine to anyone. Every studio can pick their whatever makes them happy.

 

[i-Lo]

I agree, but it doesn't explain to me why having a split architecture is so bad compared to a unified one.

I'd much rather they get at least 2 GB of GDDR5 in the consoles as VRAM than to do a split pool of slower ram with eDRAM

The biggest advantage iirc is that developers can have the freedom to determine how much of the RAM pool is dedicated for which function as opposed to being restricted by the hardware with unyielding ratio between system and video ram. The biggest disadvantage iirc is latency can be an issue because system and graphical data share the same pool.

In 2013 2GB GDDR5 may seem like more than sufficient but 3-5 years hence it may not be so. Sony's decision to split the RAM for PS3 caused quite a few problems, most notably lacklustre performance of multiplat titles as opposed to 360.

 

[raven777]

Take a look at this comparison video (Cam). Look at the clothing animation on the left (pre-rendered) and right (which is incomplete and most likely real time). I am not 100% sure (my speaker's aren't working properly atm) if there is more to this gulf in animation besides the luxury of being pre-rendered.

do u realized the left is real-time and right is pre-rendered?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The biggest advantage iirc is that developers can have the freedom to determine how much of the RAM pool is dedicated for which function as opposed to being restricted by the hardware with unyielding ratio between system and video ram. The biggest disadvantage iirc is latency can be an issue because system and graphical data share the same pool.

In 2013 2GB GDDR5 may seem like more than sufficient but 3-5 years hence it may not be so. Sony's decision to split the RAM for PS3 caused quite a few problems, most notably lacklustre performance of multiplat titles as opposed to 360.

Sony's lackluster performance of multiplat titles was mostly due to the RSX not being as flexible as Xenos and had nothing to do with RAM

Microsoft had a slight RAM advantage due to less OS footprint

 

[UrbanRats]

To see their cloth sim in a more isolated environment:

1.) http://www.famitsu.com/news/201110/11051673.html

2.) Scroll down to ▲粗いモデル（左）がテッセレーション後に、滑らかな外観のモデル（中）になり、その後ディスプレイスメントマッピングが用いられ、リアルなモデルに。

3.) Select the second video (the one below the video that has a shirt-pants full body thing).

403 forbidden access.

 

[raven777]

403 forbidden access.

you can press enter again on the website tab to access it.
It happens with famitsu links.

 

[i-Lo]

do u realized the left is real-time and right is pre-rendered?

Yea, I finally found my headphone and heard that part. Holy shit.... 0________o

Sony's lackluster performance of multiplat titles was mostly due to the RSX not being as flexible as Xenos and had nothing to do with RAM

Microsoft had a slight RAM advantage due to less OS footprint

Yea, you may be correct but here's what Bethesda had to say about their atrocious port of Skyrim.

403 forbidden access.

Remove the "www." and hit enter.

 

[UrbanRats]

you can press enter again on the website tab to access it.
It happens with famitsu links.

Thanks, wonderful videos all over the page.

 

[Norml]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

 

[Shinta]

Living the dream.

 

[Sickboy007]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

Magnificent

 

[Mxrz]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

FF15 gonna have some interesting mini-games.

 

[QisTopTier]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

I hope next gen can pull this off

 

[LiquidMetal14]

That was awkward. I would like to see how the game looks in action.

 

[BigTnaples]

God I can't wait for next gen.



To me the exciting thing about Agnis Demo is while it looks VERY next gen, at the same time it looks VERY doable on next gen hardware when you really look closely.

 

[LuuKyK]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

The feel of next gen.

 

[nib95]

I'm willing to predict that some time in to the generation, Durango and Orbis will have games that look and run just as good as that, if not better. I think too many people under value the potency of closed platform development.

 

[BigTnaples]

I'm willing to predict that some time in to the generation, Durango and Orbis will have games that look and run just as good as that, if not better. I think too many people under value the potency of closed platform development.

I agree completely. Closed platform benefits, PC games (even crysis 3) being developed with 2005 hardware as the minimum requirement has held gamers expectations back.


I think people will be blown away at games that come out on these platforms. Uncharted, God of War, Killzone, Halo, Battlefield, Gears of War, Crysis, etc are all franchises that will melt the senses when we get into next gen.

 

[i-Lo]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

A Santa minigame where presents are hid in his beard.

I'm willing to predict that some time in to the generation, Durango and Orbis will have games that look and run just as good as that, if not better. I think too many people under value the potency of closed platform development.

I hope for the same albeit do not share the expectation. For me quality of the likes of Agni may not be seen before the 4th or 5th year. Recalling the events of E3 2005 (or 2006) when concept of FF13 was shown off, I can now say that its final retail form may have gained a few things but did lose numerous polygons while creating the main characters. So, if anything, I do not put much stock in SE to give us the quality they had shown in the tech demo in full game. Perhaps a better chance lies with first parties of both console makers.

 

[Cartman86]

Are these new?

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/01/luminous-studio-new-tech-demos-get-all-hairy/

The "twists" part blew my mind.

 

[Norml]

The "twists" part blew my mind.

yeah, that part was very impressive.

 

[Spongebob]

I hope MS, Sony and 3rd party devs can deliver because at this point expectations are getting far too high.

 

[Lavalamp1138]

The feel of next gen.

The beard of next gen.

 

[Kagari]

I hope for the same albeit do not share the expectation. For me quality of the likes of Agni may not be seen before the 4th or 5th year. Recalling the events of E3 2005 (or 2006) when concept of FF13 was shown off, I can now say that its final retail form may have gained a few things but did lose numerous polygons while creating the main characters. So, if anything, I do not put much stock in SE to give us the quality they had shown in the tech demo in full game. Perhaps a better chance lies with first parties of both console makers.

Yep. People need to realize this tech demo won't be indicative of actual gameplay. Cutscenes maybe... but gameplay? No.

 

[Trickster]

I'm willing to predict that some time in to the generation, Durango and Orbis will have games that look and run just as good as that, if not better. I think too many people under value the potency of closed platform development.

Pretty much. It's incredible what devs have been able to squeeze out of the ancient hardware in the 360 and ps3.

What they will be able to do with up to date hardware is gonna be a thing of beauty.

 

[Spongebob]

Pretty much. It's incredible what devs have been able to squeeze out of the ancient hardware in the 360 and ps3.

What they will be able to do with up to date hardware is gonna be a thing of beauty.

On the opposite side we also have to take into account diminishing returns.

 

[BigTnaples]

On the opposite side we also have to take into account diminishing returns.

Sigh.

 

[Famassu]

I hope for the same albeit do not share the expectation. For me quality of the likes of Agni may not be seen before the 4th or 5th year. Recalling the events of E3 2005 (or 2006) when concept of FF13 was shown off, I can now say that its final retail form may have gained a few things but did lose numerous polygons while creating the main characters. So, if anything, I do not put much stock in SE to give us the quality they had shown in the tech demo in full game. Perhaps a better chance lies with first parties of both console makers.

To be fair, that FFXIII trailer was a target render of what they believed they could achieve with PS3, then the PS3 hardware didn't quite turn out to be what originally intended and they couldn't quite get there (not that they necessarily would have even if cuts weren't made to PS3).

This is stuff that is running real-time on actual hardware that should be about as powerful as the next-gen consoles.

 

[Fou-Lu]

I'm really hoping my i5 3570k and 7970 Ghz Edition will give me max settings for a couple more years. Spent a lot of cash on this build. Could at least run Agni's Philosophy so that's something.

Anyways, I am confident the other next gen consoles will be able to go at least to Agni's Philosophy level, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to, never underestimate a close system.

 

[longdi]

Yep. People need to realize this tech demo won't be indicative of actual gameplay. Cutscenes maybe... but gameplay? No.

GTX 680 is also quite bit more powerful than PS4 weakened 7970M ...
I heard PS4 games are target to run at GTX570 speeds,

 

[i-Lo]

To be fair, that FFXIII trailer was a target render of what they believed they could achieve with PS3, then the PS3 hardware didn't quite turn out to be what originally intended and they couldn't quite get there (not that they necessarily would have even if cuts weren't made to PS3).

This is stuff that is running real-time on actual hardware that should be about as powerful as the next-gen consoles.

Are you suggesting that the specs for PS3 had greater volatility than the specs for PS4 during the time of demonstration of the tech demo, making Agni's Philosophy a more feasible reality?

GTX 680 is also quite bit more powerful than PS4 weakened 7970M ...
I heard PS4 games are target to run at GTX570 speeds,

However, what can be achieved with that hardware in closed system follows a separate set of parameters.

Truly amazing. This is why I worry about specs. It seems there will be compromises one way or another. On the bright side, since it's all pc architecture, maybe we will get pc ports of FF games with optimizations.

Optimized for what specification exactly?

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Truly amazing. This is why I worry about specs. It seems there will be compromises one way or another. On the bright side, since it's all pc architecture, maybe we will get pc ports of FF games with optimizations.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

That beard is impressive!

 

[Loofy]

I hope MS, Sony and 3rd party devs can deliver because at this point expectations are getting far too high.

I think expectations are too low. As if developers are making these demos to showcase technology that'll only benefit PC owners with $500 graphics cards. Come on now.

 

[Trickster]

GTX 680 is also quite bit more powerful than PS4 weakened 7970M ...
I heard PS4 games are target to run at GTX570 speeds,

It doesn't translate directly like that, I thought people knew this?

 

[Famassu]

Are you suggesting that the specs for PS3 had greater volatility than the specs for PS4 during the time of demonstration of the tech demo, making Agni's Philosophy a more feasible reality?

Well, in Square Enix's own words this engine is made with the next-gen in mind and this is what they believe they will be able to run once properly optimized, they should probably have a pretty good idea what Orbis & Durango are at this point, so I'm optimistic. The FFXIII trailer wasn't anything like that. They didn't have any game engines done, it was just a kind of "this is what we are aiming for" trailer and in the end the engine or hardware couldn't quite pull that off. There's a big difference with these two approaches, though of course that doesn't mean they'll 100% sure achieve this kind of quality.

Probably some sacrifices have to be done (though, I believe those character models are perfectly doable given how good PS3 level stuff looks already), if not because of hardware then because making 30+ hour JRPGs with that kind of graphical quality isn't feasible.

 

[Loofy]

Well, in Square Enix's own words this engine is made with the next-gen in mind and this is what they believe they will be able to run once properly optimized, they should probably have a pretty good idea what Orbis & Durango are at this point, so I'm optimistic. The FFXIII trailer wasn't anything like that. They didn't have any game engines done, it was just a kind of "this is what we are aiming for" trailer and in the end the engine or hardware couldn't quite pull that off. There's a big difference with these two approaches, though of course that doesn't mean they'll 100% sure achieve this kind of quality.

Even then Im sure if Square made a new game from scratch they'd be able to match the FF13 demo. I was disappointed when MGS4 didnt look as good as the original demo but now alot of games have surpassed it and MGS5 trounces on it.