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Bonus Round - Is Time Running Out For Xbox?

It's a factor, of course, but it's not as simple as even that.

The Xbox and the PS2 were the same price, the PS2 massively outsold the Xbox, the Gamecube, whilst not Xbox levels, still handily outperformed the PS2, and it also got destroyed. The Wii was cheap, but the performance gulf was truly colossal, and it won.

I think it was obvious Sony were going to win this generation, it's been obvious for a long time really. MS provided better value in terms of core gaming than Sony did last generation, and they had between and year and eighteen months headstart, and PS3 still pinched second place.

With every advantage possible, MS still couldn't get the silver. Even if it was currently even, Sony would win. I think this 'resolutiongate' is a huge red-herring in the console sales performances. The boxes could have exactly opposite specs, and I don't believe anything would be different.

Pretty much agree with everything. Sony just has stronger market value worldwide than Microsoft. So when you factor the XBox One now being more difficult, less powerful and pricier along with not having a headstart it becomes clear they have an even bigger uphill battle. The PS2 won by a landslide and it was largely due to having the best game selection.

The problem is that Kinect offers nothing of value to most gamers, core or casual. I would venture a guess only a small percentage at this point are still onboard the Kinect train that MS has been trying to push uphill for quite some time. I have a couple Xbones, one with Kinect hooked up in my main room and one in my spare bedroom without it...and, frankly, aside from the UI being poorly implemented on the Xbone so far I really don't miss it at all when using the Xbone without Kinect hooked up. At all. Not to mention there are zero games that actually use this thing, which just boggles the mind they didn't get at least one killer app out for it during the launch window to show people "See! This is why you need Kinect!" That's a problem when the peripheral is central to the "vision" the company has been pushing for so long.

Some people do like Kinect and Twitch is going to be an example of that. But yes, you are right, Microsoft hasn't done a good job yet as to why Kinect improves things or why consumers want it. That will become more of a focus moving forward.

Really? Where are the Kinect games?

You do realize that the highest rated Kinect game of last gen was The Gunstringer which is rated a 77 on Metacritic?

The most use my old Kinect ever got was when my girlfriend fired up Fruit Ninja once a month to play for an hour, which would be funny if it wasn't true.

I understand your point that Kinect "offers something more"...but the problem is that in the real world it really doesn't, at least not for most gamers. Objectively, the PS3's BR drive offered FAR more real world value/functionality in 2007 for PS3 early adopters.

Dance Central became a pretty big hit for them and reviews were positive.
 

FrunkQ

Neo Member
But by unbundling the camera, Sony turned Kinect from an Xbone strength into a boat anchor around its neck.

Good call - well stated. And it looks like Sony will get a load more cameras out and still make it viable through other means. It pretty well does all the non-gesture stuff on the Kinect anyway which and used in streaming - both of which seem to be driving some sales.

Then add in camera requirement for the VR headset requirement and Sony have more sales on their hands.

You see Sony will make people want to camera by offering features that utilise it, whereas MS have bundled the camera and offered no compelling reason to use it much. The only "use case" for Kinect seems to be to try and shortcut the shambolic UI.
 

StuBurns

Banned
The XBO isn't a work of art, it's a piece of consumer electronics, and the consumers dictate it's merit.

The 'Kinect is part of the system' argument is clearly absurd, because MS have shown they will cower at every demand if the audience scream loud enough, and they should.

Their whole ethos for the system has changed, the Kinect is a dead end.

And just looming over the hill is the most embarrassing situation of all, VR requires a camera for motion tracking with extremely low latency. XBO is going to need a Kinect replacement...
 

Nydius

Member
As far as Elop he has never said publicly that he would have sold off the XBox either. It was reported from inside sources suggesting he would move away from Bing and XBox. The irony is now he's in charge of XBox and suddenly some people think he's going to get rid of it.

It isn't JUST Elop. Despite the spin control by the other bosses at Microsoft, the new CEO has made his position clear through his statements that he wants Microsoft to refocus on services, software, and enterprise.

Where does that leave their devices and studios division, long term, especially when there are shareholders complaining? Financially, their devices and studios division is being propped up by small device sales and Android royalty payments.

I don't expect Microsoft to just drop everything in the trash bin outside of Redmond overnight, but I do expect a long term trend of paring down hardware offerings. If Xbox One doesn't turn around, it'll be on the chopping block. It'll be last, behind Surface and Windows Phone, but it'll be there nonetheless.

Edit:
Some people do like Kinect and Twitch is going to be an example of that. But yes, you are right, Microsoft hasn't done a good job yet as to why Kinect improves things or why consumers want it. That will become more of a focus moving forward.

I've been hearing this exact same statement since Kinect 1.0 launched. This exact same statement was made after the forced Kinect was made known at E3. Well? Where is the focus? Where are the games? They had a perfect window of opportunity to focus on Kinect 2.0 and prove why it was necessary but they didn't. They've NEVER, over the life of Kinect, bothered focusing on it. Why should I believe they'll start now?
 

Synth

Member
Really? Where are the Kinect games?

You do realize that the highest rated Kinect game of last gen was The Gunstringer which is rated a 77 on Metacritic?

The most use my old Kinect ever got was when my girlfriend fired up Fruit Ninja once a month to play for an hour, which would be funny if it wasn't true.

I understand your point that Kinect "offers something more"...but the problem is that in the real world it really doesn't, at least not for most gamers. Objectively, the PS3's BR drive offered FAR more real world value/functionality in 2007 for PS3 early adopters.

I was responding to a post stating "The BluRay drives are actually used to play games". The Kinect is also used to play games. Not simply Kinect focused games either, it can have functionality added for games that don't require it, such as Zoo Tycoon. This isn't about whether or not you like the games offered by Kinect. Although I rarely used the 360's Kinect for playing games personally, both it and the Move absolutely dominated whenever it came to guest participation. Kinect Sports, Kinect Adventures, Dance Central and Sports Champions got more social use than basically every non-motion game in my collection combined. The point I was making is that claiming the Kinect is not used for games is simply false, regardless of whether you like them or not. Furthermore my choice to buy all games digitally this gen isn't impacting my ability to play every piece of software released on the console. The removal of Kinect does.

Premium you say?

Is this a joke about the Wii U Premium SKU, or do you not think the Wii U would cost less without a GamePad?
 
Premium you say?

Yes, the system came out at $349 while the XBox 360 and PS3 were about $250.

It isn't JUST Elop. Despite the spin control by the other bosses at Microsoft, the new CEO has made his position clear through his statements that he wants Microsoft to refocus on services, software, and enterprise.

Where does that leave their devices and studios division, long term, especially when there are shareholders complaining? Financially, their devices and studios division is being propped up by small device sales and Android royalty payments.

I don't expect Microsoft to just drop everything in the trash bin outside of Redmond overnight, but I do expect a long term trend of paring down hardware offerings. If Xbox One doesn't turn around, it'll be on the chopping block. It'll be last, behind Surface and Windows Phone, but it'll be there nonetheless.

We don't know that, it's speculation right now.
 

Tsundere

Banned
Is this a joke about the Wii U Premium SKU, or do you not think the Wii U would cost less without a GamePad?

Yes, the system came out at $349 while the XBox 360 and PS3 were about $250.

They are no longer paying a premium, and since you compared them directly, then it is wise to see what Microsoft needs to do (same route as Wii U and cut price because people will not pay a premium for that camera, i.e. won't be paying above X price for the bundle).
 
Dance Central became a pretty big hit for them and reviews were positive.

Agreed. And I must say that watching my girlfriend play dancing games occasionally is almost worth the price of Kinect by itself. :)~

Seriously though, I probably should have clarified when I asked "Where are the Kinect games?" I was referring primarily to Xbone / Kinect 2.0 and the baffling decision not to have anything available during the launch window. That said, I do still think the question is fair to level against Kinect 1.0 as well, since outside of dancing games and Dragon Shouts on Skyrim, the thing was nearly useless in my household.... Long story short is that Kinect 1.0 didn't come close to proving itself as a true gamer peripheral and I think most gamers, casuals and core alike, are justifiably skeptical that Kinect 2.0 will end up as anything more than a dust-catcher again.
 

Synth

Member
Seriously though, I probably should have clarified when I asked "Where are the Kinect games?" I was referring primarily to Xbone / Kinect 2.0 and the baffling decision not to have anything available during the launch window.

This I agree with then. I was shocked to hear Kinect Sports Rivals wouldn't make launch. Not only should that have been there at launch, it should have been included free with every console (It should STILL be free with every console).
 

Alx

Member
Seriously though, I probably should have clarified when I asked "Where are the Kinect games?" I was referring primarily to Xbone / Kinect 2.0 and the baffling decision not to have anything available during the launch window..

Well they had Just Dance, Zumba Fitness, Xbox Fitness, the Kinect Sports jet ski minigame, plus Fighter Within (but I must be the only person in the world enjoying the latter :p). I think the baffling thing isn't a lack of games/applications, but a lack of communication on them.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
they need to act as quickly as possible; there can be no question

the only remaining question of this generation sales-wise is whether xbone will crash and burn or do a respectable second place. signs at the moment seem to point to the former, which is why they need to start thinking about how to save it. hopefully sony pushing MS into panic mode will be as good as when MS pushed Sony into panic mode with PS3.
 

Synth

Member
They are no longer paying a premium, and since you compared them directly, then it is wise to see what Microsoft needs to do (same route as Wii U and cut price because people will not pay a premium for that camera, i.e. won't be paying above X price for the bundle).

Over here it's ~£220 for a Wii U. Which is about £100 more than a comparable 360. Sure you are.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that I don't disagree with you on anything else. They need to be at $400 with Kinect in my opinion.
 

Tsundere

Banned
Well they had Just Dance, Zumba Fitness, Xbox Fitness, the Kinect Sports jet ski minigame, plus Fighter Within (but I must be the only person in the world enjoying the latter :p). I think the baffling thing isn't a lack of games/applications, but a lack of communication on them.

I think he means core games... A re-hash of Kinect 1 style games and non-games is uninteresting to a lot of people. And the "casuals" aren't hoping on board with a $500 machine to play Kinect 1 style games they can get for cheaper.
 

SighFight

Member
I have serious doubts about indie developers being excited to work with Kinect.

Somehow they also forgot that Titanfall is also coming to the PC.

How convinient AGAIN not to mention this in the Bonus Round. The system requirements on PC are pretty low and lots of people could probably just by it for a PC they bought in the past 6 years and play it. But why tell people the full truth....
 
They are no longer paying a premium, and since you compared them directly, then it is wise to see what Microsoft needs to do (same route as Wii U and cut price because people will not pay a premium for that camera, i.e. won't be paying above X price for the bundle).

They aren't? You can get a XBox 360 for $199 to $249 depending on the model. Same with the PS3. The Wii U is still $299 retail.

It isn't JUST I've been hearing this exact same statement since Kinect 1.0 launched. This exact same statement was made after the forced Kinect was made known at E3. Well? Where is the focus? Where are the games? They had a perfect window of opportunity to focus on Kinect 2.0 and prove why it was necessary but they didn't. They've NEVER, over the life of Kinect, bothered focusing on it. Why should I believe they'll start now?

I don't know. All I do know is Kinect 2 is a much better improvement but so far there isn't much software. Some people rave about the new XBox Fitness while others rave about Skype. I guess you'll just have to wait until they release more.

Agreed. And I must say that watching my girlfriend play dancing games occasionally is almost worth the price of Kinect by itself. :)~

Seriously though, I probably should have clarified when I asked "Where are the Kinect games?" I was referring primarily to Xbone / Kinect 2.0 and the baffling decision not to have anything available during the launch window. That said, I do still think the question is fair to level against Kinect 1.0 as well, since outside of dancing games and Dragon Shouts on Skyrim, the thing was nearly useless in my household.... Long story short is that Kinect 1.0 didn't come close to proving itself as a true gamer peripheral and I think most gamers, casuals and core alike, are justifiably skeptical that Kinect 2.0 will end up as anything more than a dust-catcher again.

Kinect 1 under delivered in their promises and became too much of a focus for Microsoft game studios. Now the argument seems to be a lack of software. I guess they are still struggling to find the right balance but the main issue is everyone is paying for it.
 
I was responding to a post stating "The BluRay drives are actually used to play games". The Kinect is also used to play games. Not simply Kinect focused games either, it can have functionality added for games that don't require it, such as Zoo Tycoon. This isn't about whether or not you like the games offered by Kinect. Although I rarely used the 360's Kinect for playing games personally, both it and the Move absolutely dominated whenever it came to guest participation. Kinect Sports, Kinect Adventures, Dance Central and Sports Champions got more social use than basically every non-motion game in my collection combined. The point I was making is that claiming the Kinect is not used for games is simply false, regardless of whether you like them or not. Furthermore my choice to buy all games digitally this gen isn't impacting my ability to play every piece of software released on the console. The removal of Kinect does.

Fair enough. However, my initial thought is that if Kinect as a concept is such a sure-fire social/party gaming platform, then why didn't MS have something ready to go during the launch window for the Xbone to convince people to buy one? You make good points about Kinect 1.0 fulfilling a niche role, but that's in the past. So, while I agree that as a niche product for occasional social use Kinect has its merits, the simple fact is that MS has been pushing Kinect as something much more than that...and has failed to deliver on the bigger picture. Their primary vision is all well and good...but if they don't have a single Xbone game at launch to push that vision forward then either that vision is a mirage or its yet another major strategic error on their part. "The games will come" you might say, but I have my doubts. If I were a betting man, I'd say that by the time this gen is done Kinect 2.0 will have a similar fate, being used as a niche party peripheral for dance games and occasional Dragon Shout in the next Elder Scrolls game. Is that the "vision" we have been sold on?

Debates about Kinect 1.0 aside, Kinect 2.0 brings little to nothing to the value proposition. If consumers by and large believed it did bring something desirable to the table then the Xbone's sales numbers would be closer or on par with PS4. Since those numbers are lagging pretty significantly, we can only assume many former Xbox 360 owners switched to the cheaper (and more powerful) next gen console. Whatever perceived value the Kinect brings to the table apparently isn't enough to overcome the price disparity. If MS had a killer app for it to show WHY it belongs in living rooms perhaps that would be enough to convince more people to pony up. But MS apparently expected voice commands and NFL interaction to sell it, which obviously hasn't worked.
 

Tsundere

Banned
They aren't? You can get a XBox 360 for $199 to $249 depending on the model. Same with the PS3. The Wii U is still $299 retail.

Umm, it's $249 retail here, and you can easily find deals to get it for $179-199 constantly here... Not sure where you have it at $299... Unless you're talking about bundles.
 

DBT85

Member
Not even close. X1 is neck and neck with PS4 in the US. It ain't going anywhere.

At what point would that attitude bbecome irrelevant? For the first 2 months on sale they were neck and neck with the ps4 being impossible to get hold of.

With one month post Christmas the PS4 doubled the Xbone sales. What if it happens again, and again. How many months of being beaten by such a margin would it take?
 
There was a bit of miscommunication within Microsoft. After they revealed Kinect 1.0, they had a lot of developers saying to them, "This is a great piece of tech. This is really cool, and I wish we could use it, but the install base just isn't there to justify it." They took that statement too literally, when what they should have been hearing the developers say was, "Our publisher says we can't waste too much time on features that only function for one of the platforms in our multi-platform release title."

They thought if they forced the bundle that all of the developer support for the device that seemed tantalizingly just out of reach would materialize, somehow not grasping the fact that while many game designers legitimately do love the idea of the Kinect - and the Wii-U gamepad, for that matter - it makes publishers fly into a fit of rage due to being such a poor cost-benefit proposition in terms of development time in to "value" out.

They might have been able to turn it if they had a significant sales lead at the outset of the generation, but with the XB1 falling behind (and especially in sales of third-party software) odds are the situation will stay the same: game designers will have lots of great ideas for the hardware they'd love to try, and publishers will have a lot of great ideas for how they'd rather be making money than indulging the desires of devs to play with toys they see no profit margin in.

There'll still be edge cases, either because of game designers with enough "brand" value attached to their name to write their own checks - if Kojima falls in love with Kinect, no one's likely to stop him from doing whatever he wants with it - or because of publishers like Ubisoft who feel they can sneak in under the radar to succeed with an underserved market, but the overall pattern of support for the hardware isn't likely to change much.
 

Steroyd

Member
Not even close. X1 is neck and neck with PS4 in the US. It ain't going anywhere.

The PS4 is supply constrained in the US and supply overall is spread thinly across 3x more countries while the Xbox One is not and should have meatier stock in the fewer countries they launched in, that alone should be a concern in MS's strongest market.
 

Synth

Member
Fair enough. However, my initial thought is that if Kinect as a concept is such a sure-fire social/party gaming platform, then why didn't MS have something ready to go during the launch window for the Xbone to convince people to buy one? You make good points about Kinect 1.0 fulfilling a niche role, but that's in the past. So, while I agree that as a niche product for occasional social use Kinect has its merits, the simple fact is that MS has been pushing Kinect as something much more than that...and has failed to deliver on the bigger picture. Their primary vision is all well and good...but if they don't have a single Xbone game at launch to push that vision forward then either that vision is a mirage or its yet another major strategic error on their part. "The games will come" you might say, but I have my doubts. If I were a betting man, I'd say that by the time this gen is done Kinect 2.0 will have a similar fate, being used as a niche party peripheral for dance games and occasional Dragon Shout in the next Elder Scrolls game. Is that the "vision" we have been sold on?

Debates about Kinect 1.0 aside, Kinect 2.0 brings little to nothing to the value proposition. If consumers by and large believed it did bring something desirable to the table then the Xbone's sales numbers would be closer or on par with PS4. Since those numbers are lagging pretty significantly, we can only assume many former Xbox 360 owners switched to the cheaper (and more powerful) next gen console. Whatever perceived value the Kinect brings to the table apparently isn't enough to overcome the price disparity. If MS had a killer app for it to show WHY it belongs in living rooms perhaps that would be enough to convince more people to pony up. But MS apparently expected voice commands and NFL interaction to sell it, which obviously hasn't worked.

Yea, I agree that not having software out to increase the value perception of the X1 was insanely stupid. I also agree that even though I believe it represents some additional, value, that value is not $100 for most people. I think that value could quite possibly be equal to the value of the performance delta with the PS4 however, which is why I think them hitting $400 with Kinect would do a lot more for the platform than $400 without it.

Not even close. X1 is neck and neck with PS4 in the US. It ain't going anywhere.

How can you possibly say this?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I think some of the people asking for kinect games are sort of being disingenuous anyway. I know I don't want any kinect games. I hope they continue to fail justifying its inclusion, lol.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I think some of the people asking for kinect games are sort of being disingenuous anyway. I know I don't want any kinect games. I hope they continue to fail justifying its inclusion, lol.

It's been four years and nobody's managed to justify it yet. Why in sweet hell does anyone want to pay a $100 premium for a device that has gone four years with absolutely no good reason offered to own it.
 

StuBurns

Banned
The Kinect is too slow, it's still 60ms at best, that's unacceptable. It will never provide a crisp gameplay experience, even if it functioned perfectly and you designed a game that used it meaningfully.
 

Kosma

Banned
There must be some bigger reason then the OS alone why MS included Kinect no? Maybe they are holding back something.
 
There must be some bigger reason then the OS alone why MS included Kinect no? Maybe they are holding back something.

I think they were convinced the minority report style interface was going to be slick enough to pull people their way. I imagine that wasn't insane reasoning when they assumed PS4 was going to be at a similar price point.
 
I don't own a xbone yet, but is a million sold, out of the gate, and 3-4 million in ~3 months a signifier of the end times for a console? That seems like strong numbers to me. Yea it's getting beat by the ps4, but isn't it a little too early for that to matter? The ps3 got pasted for 90% of last gen and I don't remember seeing this many doom and gloom articles for it so early in it's life cycle.

Microsoft will be fine, they have more money than sense, but that hasn't heralded their doom quite yet.
 

Steroyd

Member
I don't own a xbone yet, but is a million sold, out of the gate, and 3-4 million in ~3 months a signifier of the end times for a console? That seems like strong numbers to me. Yea it's getting beat by the ps4, but isn't it a little too early for that to matter?

Put it this way the Xbox One is pacing itself similarly to the WiiU, all initial sales tells us is that production for consoles have come leaps and bounds compared to 8 years ago.

and unlike the PS3 the US and UK are MS's best markets, they have no Europe or Japan to make up the numbers elsewhere.

It's early signs anything can happen, but it's hard to see at present where MS will catch up at present (ah... yeah... Titanfall...)
 
Well lets compare it to this gen, because it doesn't take business guru to know that both MS and Sony want more sales for their new consoles then their last ones.

PS360 did a combined ~160 million, roughly ~80 million each.

For simplicity sake let's say the PS4bone do the same total numbers. ~160 million. I could see it being skewed 90/70 in Sony's favor.

While ~70 million wouldn't be the best for MS, it surely won't be deemed a "failure". MS could still potentially make a great deal of money from sales figures like that especially if attach rates stay high. If consumers bend to the will of Micro-transactions and other various DLC, the potential profit per system could be even higher then it was last gen. These companies are looking to make even more money off these boxes then ever before. And they will try. There will be new schemes. The rise of episodic content and eventually "games as a service" from which they could gather continued income. MS utilizing the cloud and Sony doing essentially the same under Gaikai. They will come up with new ways of charging for content and if this past gen is any example, many will eat it up.

I think the worst part with this theoretical ratio is that it ignores the market that the Wii had entirely and if either company looks at the market health as a whole they may want to change their strategy. Without the Wii U performing anywhere near the original Wii (~100 mil) you're talking about an overall console sales deficiency of ~80 mil, if the Wii U can reach 20 Mil sales, compared to last generation. I would hope that these two companies want to expand the market, not sit around and watch it contract, otherwise Amazon, or some other company will come in and eat their lunch while they sit on the sidelines and watch.

You misinterpreted what I meant by saying "the ship has sailed". I was referring to the BRAND itself, as in the public's perception of the product. Although this is indeed related to long term sales projections, this is not the same thing. You seem to have conflated the two.

Having said that, given the absolute and irrefutable evidence we all have at our disposal of just how poorly MS designed and rolled out the Xbone, I would say that any rational person would have to come to the conclusion that this ship has indeed sailed, meaning the Xbox brand's reputation has definitely, without a doubt taken a severe hit. To say otherwise would be either a major denial of reality or indicate someone has a vested interest in helping MS PR spin the truth.

This does not mean that the Xbone is "finished" and is going to be a total failure. The statement is what it is: the reputation of the product line and the people who launched this generation has without a doubt gone downhill. They may be able to make up some of the lost ground, but to cheerily say that "both sides are doing well" ignores reality when one console is outselling the other 2:1 globally, with all indications the divide is only going to escalate. There are some parallels to the previous gen, but none that indicate MS can make a similar comeback as Sony did with the PS3. This is very much apples and oranges. On a personal note, I did my part and own a couple of both new consoles...and in general am happy with both for slightly different reasons...but MS's mishandling of the Xbone thus far is shocking and will no doubt be taught one day in business schools as a perfect example of how a company can seize defeat from the jaws of victory by mishandling the brand. Only time will tell on overall sales numbers and I do agree that its best to be hopeful MS will grow a brain and make the right moves because competition is good for consumers. But given how tone deaf their leadership seems to be I wouldn't hold my breathe.

I misinterpreted what you were saying by "the ship had sailed", since many do use that phrase on these boards to over simplify the state of competition among the two. Though I completely agree with your statement that their were plenty of mistakes made that have damaged the Xbox brand in the short term, and likely will lead to long term damage since Microsoft seems keen to do little to correct the biggest mistake: price. I still hold my original opinion on others relegating Microsoft and the X1 to failure less than four months after launch and thinking the sales race is already over is complete foolishness. Of course there are plenty of differences between the two last generation and the current one, but I think price and compelling content are the two big factors for the console at this point. If Microsoft continues to lean heavily on third party games that do perform worse on their console when it is still more expensive they have set themselves up for failure. At price parity, assuming they keep the Kinect in every box, they could at the very least have an argument for the everyman to purchase their box instead of the competition. What do we all know though? Obviously they are looking at something none of us can see and somehow being outsold and made a fool of is a great business decision. -_-

P.S. I have no vesting interest in either party; I do own all of the consoles though and play them all when they have content I am interested in.
 

Jetlagger

Banned
The doom and gloom is coming from the fact that Xbox One sales, even in the US, have already petered out or reached their ceiling while languishing on store shelves from being overstocked... while PS4 supply in the US is still trying to find solid footing as stock seemingly evaporates into thin air like a Houdini act. PS4 will be sold out on US Amazon any minute now, again, while selling out worldwide and clearing through every box Sony can manufacture and ship.

Do you see where the doom and gloom is coming from now? Do you see why MS has a problem? They've sold out too. Only difference is that MS is sold out of demand while Sony is sold out of supply.
 

harSon

Banned
If i choose not to use the camera, my phone still makes calls, receives texts, performs all of the basic functions of a phone at the same level of quality as the competition.

That is not the case here.

Hence the constant posts about Kinect being the differentiating factor that sets Xbone apart from PS4, it shouldn't be removed etc. So if it truly is part of the package, rethinking what that package truly needs to be should be priority 1 for the hardware team, because clearly the 'value proposition' is not shared by the consumer base, even in what were previous generation market strongholds.

It is a millstone and needs to be jettisoned.

First of all, that's a terrible analogy since in today's market, a camera is considered basic functionality for a cellphone. Second of all, do you have any idea how an Xbox One works? If you remove the Xbox One, the Xbox One still functions. It'll turn on. You can still navigate the UI. You'll still be able to play games not specifically designed to utilize the Kinect. As you say, its basic functions will still work at the same quality as the competition.

Having said that, this has absolutely nothing to do with what you were initially responding too. The post you were responding to was attempting to fight back against the notion that Kinect is a privacy concern.

And I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. The Kinect is the sole unique Xbox One feature that separates itself from the competition. Why did Microsoft make it standard across all SKUs? First of all, consumers proved their interest in Kinect last generation when they made it among the best selling peripherals of all time. It's popularity tapered off towards the end of the generation though, primarily because the software library catering to the device was much too bare bones. A fate that all peripherals suffer due to the fact that it doesn't make sense for developers to develop for a audience within an audience with respect to a specific platform. Microsoft's solution to this was to combine those two audiences, ie. not splitting the user base, and make Kinect standard across all SKUs. They've put considerable time, money and effort into bringing that idea to fruition, and for better or worse, the Kinect is an integral part to the Xbox One's identity.

As for consumers not buying into the value proposition of Kinect being standard across all SKUs, in comparison to the Playstation 4 (this distinction is important, the XB1 is selling at a better pace than its predecessors), it's hard to disagree. But it's more price point, which the Kinect definitely inflates, than the general idea of Kinect being a required pack in, considering that people were willing to drop $150 for the same peripheral last generation. Microsoft does need to lower the price of barrier, and they need to substantiate the inclusion of Kinect by validating its worth. But outright removing it is an extremely short sited and over reactionary move.
 

jelly

Member
There must be some bigger reason then the OS alone why MS included Kinect no? Maybe they are holding back something.

I believe Microsoft don't see Kinect as a gaming peripheral. Devs have shown that it doesn't add or make anything substantially better. Games are just the foot in the door but because they are so bad Microsoft are left struggling to justify it.

From a consumer perspective, voice control and the camera 'Skype' are the highlights.

From a Microsoft perspective, voice control is one of the next big things, specific commands are not but conversational control like Siri, Google Now, Cortana. Focused advertising in the living room is unheard of, advertisers actually know who is in the room, not just a guess based on what TV show people are watching, height, thin, fat, what items you even have in your living room etc. That is the revenue stream Microsoft are gunning for. There is a lot of advertising money on the table with that information.
 

Servbot24

Banned
There must be some bigger reason then the OS alone why MS included Kinect no? Maybe they are holding back something.

I think they just want a unified user base. Which is good. They just seem to be out of touch with what their user base cares about.
 

SPDIF

Member
It isn't JUST Elop. Despite the spin control by the other bosses at Microsoft, the new CEO has made his position clear through his statements that he wants Microsoft to refocus on services, software, and enterprise.

Where does that leave their devices and studios division, long term, especially when there are shareholders complaining? Financially, their devices and studios division is being propped up by small device sales and Android royalty payments.

Yes, along with devices. He's specifically talked about how important devices are for the future of the company. He wants Microsoft's software and services on every device and platform, but if that device can also be a Microsoft device then that's even better. The future of the company as he sees it is enterprise, SAAS and devices. Not sure why you missed that part out.
 

Synth

Member
Having said that, this has absolutely nothing to do with what you were initially responding too. The post you were responding to was attempting to fight back against the notion that Kinect is a privacy concern.

Yea, this is what I was referring to before. The discussion jumped from Kinect being a privacy issue because you have to use it... to Kinect being a value issue because you DON'T have to use it... to Kinect being an issue with the X1 because you kinda have to use it to use the machine fully... based on whatever response was received to the previous statement.

It started to make no sense exactly what the problem here was.
 

watership

Member
There must be some bigger reason then the OS alone why MS included Kinect no? Maybe they are holding back something.

This is pretty simple. If they include it, the user base for kinect software grows. Having to buy an separate attachment will always be less appealing than something that's standard. Games come out with kinect functionality, all x1 will be capable of using it.
 
Really? Where are the Kinect games?

You do realize that the highest rated Kinect game of last gen was The Gunstringer which is rated a 77 on Metacritic?

The most use my old Kinect ever got was when my girlfriend fired up Fruit Ninja once a month to play for an hour, which would be funny if it wasn't true.

I understand your point that Kinect "offers something more"...but the problem is that in the real world it really doesn't, at least not for most gamers. Objectively, the PS3's BR drive offered FAR more real world value/functionality in 2007 for PS3 early adopters.

Dance Central 1/2/3 - 82/86/86
 

Darksol

Member
There were tons of doomed articles on the ps3.

And Sony responded by dropping its price, bolstering its online service, rolling out PS+, and investing even more in their first party studios.

What's your point? Sony did what it had to do to make their product more appealing to more people. What is MS doing?
 
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