gutter_trash
Banned
it's like present day Greeks trying to take credit for the Golden Age of Ancient Greece
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Can we be proud of the British Empire?
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PeskyToaster
Member
You can be proud of anything you want. Empire are cool but they were almost all founded at a huge human cost. It's definitely worth it to those who benefit from the stability, trade, and whatever because they aren't paying any of the cost but most of the time nobody cares about those who do pay the cost. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs and those eggs happen to be humans and the omelet is stability, rule of law, order, standardization, and trade across a wide area filled formerly disunited peoples.
Coriolanus
Banned
No, i am arguing that i am failing to find evidence that the consumption of opium was destroying China. The result of the emperor's decision to block the trade is another matter entirely.
Much in the same way how we now see that the decision to enact prohibition was freaking stupid, but at the time it was seen as necessary, even though it really wasnt.
The decision, obviously, does not excuse what the british did.
Ahm...uruguay?
PeskyToaster
Member
It's nice to think that, someday, our progeny will be able to look back over the various achievements of these nations and empires and simply see them as steps towards a greater society.
I think, in the broadest sense, if we take pride in anything it should be the overall progress of humanism. Certainly, the British Empire did a lot to advance those ideals around the globe (if not in a practical sense, then at least in an intellectual sense), the same way the UN and (to some small extent) Western cultural values continue to today.
With that said, we have not reached the ultimate expression of humanism in governance, and I don't think any of these nations or organizations can be held up as paragons of those ideals. But they do represent steps - the progress we've seen in the two centuries makes that very clear.
I think, in the broadest sense, if we take pride in anything it should be the overall progress of humanism. Certainly, the British Empire did a lot to advance those ideals around the globe (if not in a practical sense, then at least in an intellectual sense), the same way the UN and (to some small extent) Western cultural values continue to today.
With that said, we have not reached the ultimate expression of humanism in governance, and I don't think any of these nations or organizations can be held up as paragons of those ideals. But they do represent steps - the progress we've seen in the two centuries makes that very clear.
Like you said, it does not excuse what the British did, but so fucking what if a country want to put up restriction on a trade? What right did the British have to point weapons at them and said "Fuck you, let us sell opium."?
dapperbandit
Banned
I'd say actually OP that the time for it to be "acceptable" isn't coming but has been and gone. Acceptable is however such a loose word, of course it wouldn't be acceptable here, in other circles, without a shadow of a doubt.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is already the case though, no?
something something law and civilization and democracy
PeskyToaster
Member
The right came from being able to and the other country not being powerful enough to stop them. That right isn't thought of as a good reason by today's standards but it was perfectly valid back then.
It can also work today like when Russia takes land from Ukraine. Nobody stopped them so why the fuck not? It's a game as old as civilization.
I don't feel proud of any Empire.
It has nothing to do with a country or a civilization. Don't move the goalpost.
Coriolanus
Banned
Which is a very fine point, but doesn't answer the question of whether the opium was actively harming China before it was prohibited.
The problem of not solving that question is that it draws a somewhat interesting parallel with the US forcing Japan's ports open, fwiw.
Half-expected them to have genocided someone. Every damn nation in SA did. Gosh darn it.
Fuck that "unfair trade" noise, the opium wars imposed much more unfair trade deals with China than anything that existed before (which really, was just your run of the mill trade imbalance).
The basic problem was that China was producing more things that Europe wanted than Europe was producing things that China wanted.
That is not true.
There were many empires that were more benign than the British empire and not every strong country in the history of the world ended up enslaving and exploiting any piece of land that they could.
And really, saying "at least we're not as bad as the mongols" is a really faint praise.
After literally just finishing Code Geass this made me burst out laughing.
I'm British and I'd be proud of the British Empire, but the means in which we did what we did outweighs the gains we got. We did some really horrible things. I find it incredible my ancestors achieved the feat they did and it amazes me there was a point in time one of the smaller nations of earth was the most powerful, but I think we made many mistakes and in a way completely messed up the world, including colonising (due to the fact us and the other Europeans comitted Genocide and basically destroyed a subculture of peoples entire way of life) and then giving up America (which led to them eventually under their own hands comitting their own atrocities).
I don't feel proud of it, but I certainly respect the fact they achieved for a time absolute power over the world in a move that propelled my nation further forward than anyone else , which, was what allowed them that power. Reading the history of the rise of the British Empire is really interesting and it's something I've loved learning about. The funny thing is, is allthough the British Empire doesn't exist by name anymore, it's still kind of a thing in practice. The commonwealth is what's left of the British Empire and while more split from democracy and power, we still have a foothold in most of those nations.
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Well, I have them to thank for my existence.
Wouldn't have Canada without them, and my grandparents/great-grandparents would never have come here if the English hadn't been running rampage in Ireland.
Wouldn't have Canada without them, and my grandparents/great-grandparents would never have come here if the English hadn't been running rampage in Ireland.
Trumpets
Member
massoluk said:
Because they were the more powerful country and they could. Literally the whole of world history is that happening again and again, and it was simply the way of things up until fairly recently (although it still goes on a bit, sadly).
Also worth mentioning that the Opium Wars are chicken feed to what China did to itself 100 years later, killing 40+ million of its own citizens in the Great Leap Forward.
whatsinaname
Member
More Fun To Compute
Member
The Chinese were not interested in finding out if they wanted anything that Europe could manufacture because of their view that they were so culturally superior.
And yes the merchants were desperate to maintain a flow of goods that were very popular in Europe. This trade was established due to China actually wanting the silver that the Spanish had extracted from the Americas due to their conquests and slave labour.
CadetMahoney
Member
Reminds me of columbus nuthuggers who say his behavior was "normal for that time".
They made a really big empire though, you at least have to respect that. Or be awed at it. Or impressed by it. Or any other nicer way of saying proud of it.
I've got to disagree. While ranking harmfulness is hardly precise, the British Empire contributed much more to the global community than the Belgian, with significantly less cruelty. It was an incredibly unethical institution responsible for some atrocities, but does not deserve to be compared to Belgian activities in the Congo.
Fucked up shit was normal at the time. It's kind of amazing to me how callous and fucked up human beings are. And in that time nobody cared to hide it.
"They don't want to buy our stuff" is not a good enough reason to go to war, sorry.
They Chinese were willing trade, but they wanted stuff that they, well, wanted.
I'm not saying you can't be impressed or fascinated by it, I'm definitely very interested in the Mongol empire.
But pride?
I mean I am also interested in Nazi Germany and I'm impressed with the Wehrmacht's fighting capabilities.
"My god, and you're right!"
More Fun To Compute
Member
The war was not because they didn't want to trade that is the reason why they traded not through official negotiations but supplied goods like opium to corrupt officials. The situation escalated because the Chinese later attempted to crack down on the trade but the British felt they had no reason to respect Chinese authority as there was no real diplomacy.
Oh no the Chinese dared to crack down on illegal activities within their own borders. How dare them!
milanbaros
Member?
Why would Brits be proud of something that they had absolutely nothing to do with? It's even more bizarre than patriotism.
not_so_special
Banned
no,you were the nazis with more time to invade,kill and ravage lands and better pr
proud of what? flags? no thanks
proud of what? flags? no thanks
Napoleonthechimp
Member
It still goes on just not with guns and direct force.
CadetMahoney
Member
Don't matter to the point I'm making. Christopher Colombus nuthuggers think he is a man to be revered or respected. Are you one of those guys who complain about Colombus Day being changed to Indigenous People's Day? Columbus opened the way to the systematic extermination of an entire group of peoples culture & heritage, not to mention the genocide of the people themselves.
He WAS brutal, even for his time. So much so that the crown called him back when they heard what he was doing and he was a slaveowner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slave_owners
Similar to the British Empire topic, you have to balance the "reverence and being proud" in context. Selective memory so only the "benefit it brought us" is remembered is not a good way to go about it (imo).
What.
Austriacus
Member
So much shit has happened in the history of all countries that being proud of any of it makes no sense to me. Being proud of ones country in this day and age makes no amount of sense either tho.
Jill Sandwich
the turds of Optimus Prime
As a Brit I'm impressed we could even have a global empire, and proud of our industrial achievements, but there's certainly a lot of things we've done that I'm disgusted by.
Rushersauce
Banned
You should feel proud of what YOU have done in life.
I think this video sums it up pretty well.
https://www.facebook.com/IamSouthAfrican/videos/840977289283837
https://www.facebook.com/IamSouthAfrican/videos/840977289283837
More Fun To Compute
Member
Well the opium trade wasn't especially universally popular with British people so perhaps some sort of other solution could have been arranged. But a state just threatening British subjects when that state was already happy to be seen as condescending and belligerent was a threat to the status of the nation. Especially when the ones threatening them were militarily backwards.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Why not feel a deep and burning shame about being human and save time.
Marc
Member
Try East Timor.
There is nothing or no one you are proud of who has committed some kind of offence?
I find that hard to believe unless you just sit in a box separated from the world and spend your time judging others.
Depending on your perspective, things could be seen as worse now more than ever. I'm sure Orwell would look at the modern world in despair, as I am sure many look at his world and judge. Even shit heads like the inquisition would look at nuclear arms and think "Whoah, that's pushing things a bit!". The west likes to think we're above it all but in truth we export most of our misery, it still exists, just not us having to do it now (i.e. manufacturing).
Damerman
Member
What the fuck am i reading? A lot of people give empires credit they are due(which is why world history focuses on them over anyone else), despite their efforts to downplay their colonial/imperial subjects accomplishments through pretty barberic tactics.
How the fuck would i ever be proud of an initiative that is founded on "the white man's burden"? Countless injustices... Fucking countless... I can't with this thread.
Also, fucking this. Spread democracy my fucking black ass.
The first opium war started because the Chinese banned the trade of opium.
The 2nd was pretty much because the governor of HK and this one Admiral because the Chinese were meanies and wouldn't apologize for asserting their sovereignty.
I can't believe you're defending that bullshit.
That's a slightly disturbing and worrying way of going about life. Why on Earth outside of world cup season should anyone feel shame about the acts of the long dead?
Seriously should probably get some help with that.
The British did so much disgusting, movie villain evil shit that I don't think "pride" should ever come into the conversation.
The whole European era of colonialism was a net negative, especially for the indigenous peoples who were either obliterated physically and/or culturally. Not every one of these cultures erased, btw, was savage. But the methods of their destruction employed by the Brits, Dutch, French, etc. were quite savage indeed.
The whole European era of colonialism was a net negative, especially for the indigenous peoples who were either obliterated physically and/or culturally. Not every one of these cultures erased, btw, was savage. But the methods of their destruction employed by the Brits, Dutch, French, etc. were quite savage indeed.
OverBlood 3
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Proud to be Brittas
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