gutter_trash
Banned
it's like present day Greeks trying to take credit for the Golden Age of Ancient Greece
Are you arguing for the opium wars here?
Like, what's the bigger point?
Britain went to war with China to force them to buy opium from them, they killed tens of thousands of people for that, ended up taking up pieces of China and making all Christians exempt from Chinese laws, all things that directly help bring the boxer rebellion and the fuckery that followed and you really want to argue that "well, it didn't technically destroyed China"?
It was a colonial crime, unjustifiable and unforgivable, I mean yeah, it's not as bad as some of the stuff the British did in Africa and India, but let's get fucking real here.
Ahm...uruguay?Ok then. Name me a country, empire or civilisation that ever existed that could not be called 'mass murderers' by someone or certain group of people. Just out of interest.
Ahm...uruguay?
Later on, Fructuoso Rivera - Uruguay's first president - who possessed an hacienda organized the Charruas's genocide. Since 11 April 1831, when the Salsipuedes (meaning "Get-out-if-you-can") campaign was launched by a group led by Bernabé Rivera, nephew of Fructuoso Rivera, it is said that the Charruas were extinct.
No, i am arguing that i am failing to find evidence that the consumption of opium was destroying China. The result of the emperor's decision to block the trade is another matter entirely.
Much in the same way how we now see that the decision to enact prohibition was freaking stupid, but at the time it was seen as necessary, even though it really wasnt.
The decision, obviously, does not excuse what the british did.
Ahm...uruguay?
ok maybe pride is the wrong word. being in awe of it probabaly fits better.
something something law and civilization and democracyLike you said, it does not excuse what the British did, but so fucking what if a country want to put up restriction on a trade? What right did the British have to point weapons at them and said "Fuck you, let us sell opium."?
Like you said, it does not excuse what the British did, but so fucking what if a country want to put up restriction on a trade? What right did the British have to point weapons at them and said "Fuck you, let us sell opium."?
Ok then. Name me a country, empire or civilisation that ever existed that could not be called 'mass murderers' by someone or certain group of people. Just out of interest.
Like you said, it does not excuse what the British did, but so fucking what if a country want to put up restriction on a trade? What right did the British have to point weapons at them and said "Fuck you, let us sell opium."?
Too easy.
Fuck that "unfair trade" noise, the opium wars imposed much more unfair trade deals with China than anything that existed before (which really, was just your run of the mill trade imbalance).The original problem was the Chinese empire refused to diplomatically talk to the British traders and expected very unbalanced and unfair trade conditions to stand. The British felt that they had no alternative but to trade with corrupt officials who had an existing demand for Indian opium.
The trade of opium became so significant that it not only became a social issue but more importantly the flow of silver that was previously flowing from the American colonies to China suddenly started leaving the country.
When this problem of silver leaving the country became unbearable the Chinese blamed the British who already felt that they were being bullied and treated like sub human barbarians by what was then a relatively poor military power. In particular the British were outraged by how people sent to the Chinese to negotiate were held prisoner and tortured to death.
The basic problem for the Chinese was that their isolationist policies, greed and arrogance left them in a position that was unsustainable in the modern world. The British could have shown more restraint but really to say that China would not have have had any problems going forward is a stretch.
That is not true.Historically countries have either been the oppressor, or they've been the oppressed, and as oppressors go the British Empire was one of the most benign. It doesn't even bare comparison with what the Romans or the Mongols got up to, despite being much larger.
So sure, be proud!
massoluk said:Like you said, it does not excuse what the British did, but so fucking what if a country want to put up restriction on a trade? What right did the British have to point weapons at them and said "Fuck you, let us sell opium."?
Piggybacking on what others have said, 'pride' is the wrong word here.
But it was damn impressive what we achieved and how far our reach spread. It's also amazing to think that only less than 100 years ago we basically controlled 1/5th of the world.
Fuck that "unfair trade" noise, the opium wars imposed much more unfair trade deals with China than anything that existed before (which really, was just your run of the mill trade imbalance).
The basic problem was that China was producing more things that Europe wanted than Europe was producing things that China wanted.
chichikov said:...There were many empires that were more benign than the British empire...
They made a really big empire though, you at least have to respect that. Or be awed at it. Or impressed by it. Or any other nicer way of saying proud of it.And really, saying "at least we're not as bad as the mongols" is a really faint praise.
As proud as Belgium can of theirs.
Fucked up shit was normal at the time. It's kind of amazing to me how callous and fucked up human beings are. And in that time nobody cared to hide it.Reminds me of columbus nuthuggers who say his behavior was "normal for that time".
"They don't want to buy our stuff" is not a good enough reason to go to war, sorry.The Chinese were not interested in finding out if they wanted anything that Europe could manufacture because of their view that they were so culturally superior.
And yes the merchants were desperate to maintain a flow of goods that were very popular in Europe. This trade was established due to China actually wanting the silver that the Spanish had extracted from the Americas due to their conquests and slave labour.
I'm not saying you can't be impressed or fascinated by it, I'm definitely very interested in the Mongol empire.They made a really big empire though, you at least have to respect that. Or be awed at it. Or impressed by it. Or any other nicer way of saying proud of it.
"Dieu et mon droit' <3
"They don't want to buy our stuff" is not a good enough reason to go to war, sorry.
They Chinese were willing trade, but they wanted stuff that they, well, wanted.
The war was not because they didn't want to talk or trade that is the reason why they traded not through official negotiations but supplied goods like opium to corrupt officials. The situation escalated because the Chinese later attempted to crack down on the trade but the British felt they had no reason to respect Chinese authority as there was no real diplomacy.
Because they were the more powerful country and they could. Literally the whole of world history is that happening again and again, and it was simply the way of things up until fairly recently (although it still goes on a bit, sadly).
Also worth mentioning that the Opium Wars are chicken feed to what China did to itself 100 years later, killing 40+ million of its own citizens in the Great Leap Forward.
Fucked up shit was normal at the time. It's kind of amazing to me how callous and fucked up human beings are. And in that time nobody cared to hide it.
no,you were the nazis with more time to invade,kill and ravage lands and better pr
Oh no the Chinese dared to crack down on illegal activities within their own borders. How dare them!
Suspicious at anyone who feels anything but a deep and burning shame about being British.
Too easy.
I don't feel proud of any Empire.
It has nothing to do with a country or a civilization. Don't move the goalpost.
Fucked up shit was normal at the time. It's kind of amazing to me how callous and fucked up human beings are. And in that time nobody cared to hide it.
What the fuck am i reading? A lot of people give empires credit they are due(which is why world history focuses on them over anyone else), despite their efforts to downplay their colonial/imperial subjects accomplishments through pretty barberic tactics.We look at the Roman Empire with awe due to their sophistication and their impact on history and what not, yet the roman empire was also known for subduing and looting other people. Same with any other empire as far as I can think.
Also, fucking this. Spread democracy my fucking black ass.For all the success stories like Canada and Australia, there's also colossal fuckups that affects the world deeply to this day, like how the post-Ottoman middle east was handled. There's still even relatively recent stuff like orchestrating the coup in Iran in the 50's.
The first opium war started because the Chinese banned the trade of opium.The war was not because they didn't want to trade that is the reason why they traded not through official negotiations but supplied goods like opium to corrupt officials. The situation escalated because the Chinese later attempted to crack down on the trade but the British felt they had no reason to respect Chinese authority as there was no real diplomacy.
Suspicious at anyone who feels anything but a deep and burning shame about being British.