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[Shin Johnpv]

What? GTA, Halo have always been hardcore games.

You can keep telling yourself this, but GTA, Halo have always been casual. Or as was the term in previous generations mainstream.

 

[iamshadowlark]

If $599 OK with everyone, all of a sudden?

Highspeed ram cost about $65(Including XDR) in the original ps3. The price is about the same today for the top of the line stuff, quite possibly cheaper.

 

[flyinpiranha]

No.



If it's not in the box, it's effectively dead.

Who came up with this rule?

Keyword is highlighted.
Infrared aiming is the biggest innovation since the analog stick in the console space, and it's a shame that (because of hardcore gamers so stuck in their ways) it will be going the way of the dodo next gen.

It's not because |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz are too stuck in their ways, it's because the Wii implementation sucked. And so does the Move for that matter with games that aren't Tennis and Jenga (IMO of course) ... but it must be a common opinion that it sucks because everybody is not jumping into it, |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz will do whatever gives them the edge right? Isn't that your definition? Or after spending thousands on a system and game is $50 too much to make them better at the games they spend countless hours in?

I'd think the "Hardcore" would be the first to jump on an advantage or a change for the better.

But again, I hate the term "Hardcore" "Casual" and whatever moniker you want to throw on a demographic that can't be defined.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I honestly think the delay in the new generation for a couple more years will re-establish the PC as THE platform for hardcore gamers. It already is for a lot of people. I know I bought a gaming PC this year for this very reason. Add two more years to that and a lot more people will be where I was before this new cycle starts.

There is about a .01% chance that will happen.

 

[Zoramon089]

It's not because |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz are too stuck in their ways, it's because the Wii implementation sucked. And so does the Move for that matter with games that aren't Tennis and Jenga (IMO of course) ... but it must be a common opinion that it sucks because everybody is not jumping into it, |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz will do whatever gives them the edge right? Isn't that your definition? Or after spending thousands on a system and game is $50 too much to make them better at the games they spend countless hours in?

Have you played any Wii FPS games? Any good ones? Or any games that use IR for aiming? Because the only reason I could believe you think it sucks is because YOU are bad at it.

 

[StevieP]

Who came up with this rule?

Peripherals in history did. We don't know what's going into the Wii box, but if the Wii Remote+ isn't in it, it's a peripheral.

It's not because |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz are too stuck in their ways, it's because the Wii implementation sucked. And so does the Move for that matter with games that aren't Tennis and Jenga (IMO of course) ... but it must be a common opinion that it sucks because everybody is not jumping into it, |-|/\RDC0R3 gamerz will do whatever gives them the edge right? Isn't that your definition? Or after spending thousands on a system and game is $50 too much to make them better at the games they spend countless hours in?

No, the Wii implemenation is the closest thing to a mouse in the console space, for a pointer. The Move is almost as good using motion sensors to recreate the pointer. Although you wouldn't be able to tell with the Wii launch titles, a pointer is vastly superior to dual-analog in ANYTHING that requires that you aim. I would still greatly prefer a mouse, but it's not practical with a console - and it would cause severe balance issues online.

Unless you're one of the people that prefers the console does the aiming for you, as per analog sticks.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I hope both Sony and MS announce them at E3 2012, would make for an amazing show.

 

[Vinci]

We don't even know what's in the Wii U box. It's a bit early to suggest that IR is dead.

 

[sTeLioSco]

I hope both Sony and MS announce them at E3 2012, would make for an amazing show.

very possible.

"Additionally, sources have indicated to us that larger publishers and developers already have target specs of both the next Xbox and PlayStation to help them with their development."

target specs? i hope no less than 2gbram in a '12/'13 console than would supposedly last until 2018.......

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

very possible.

"Additionally, sources have indicated to us that larger publishers and developers already have target specs of both the next Xbox and PlayStation to help them with their development."

target specs? i hope no less than 2gbram in a '12/'13 console than would supposedly last until 2018.......

2gb ram not enough, 4 plz.

 

[sTeLioSco]

2gb ram not enough, 4 plz.

trying to be realistic but less than 2gb no-way.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Peripherals in history did. We don't know what's going into the Wii box, but if the Wii Remote+ isn't in it, it's a peripheral.

Probably should tell that to Kinect, Guitar Hero, Wii Fit, and all the other shit that still sells millions even though it's a peripheral. If a game is good, people will use stuff made for it.

If Wii developers want to make good games using the Wiimote, people will have them.

So I assume you think Sony and MS are abandoning Kinect and Move then? Or are you basing the entire future of motion gaming on whether the Wiimote is packed into the Wii U?

Have you played any Wii FPS games? Any good ones? Or any games that use IR for aiming? Because the only reason I could believe you think it sucks is because YOU are bad at it.

Define good?

Killzone with Move
A couple Wii games I gamefly'd but can't remember (RE4 was good though)

I probably am bad it, I didn't like it, it didn't seem to make it "better" and the way it was implemented wasn't that great for ME. Did you read my post? Or are you just trying to say "u suck at waggle gamez" because I specifically said " (IMO of course)". That means "In my opinion".

But proof is in the puddin' ... are the top KZ players and SOCOM players using Move?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

So Nintendo are going to be stuck with a less powerful machine one year into next-gen.

Yikes!

not only that, if nintendo doesn't release the wii-u before e3, or even before we get solid rumors of what the next xbox/ps is capable of, nintendo is going to be competeing with "potential" which is almost impossible to market against.

The 360 for example had it's early sales cut by the potential of the ps3, and it wasn't until sony announced the price point that 360 sales shot up.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

We don't even know what's in the Wii U box. It's a bit early to suggest that IR is dead.

I believe StevieP is just saying that if it is not in the box then forget it. I personally hope it is. I think it makes sense for it to be, since they're used for mulitplayer. Only time is going to tell though. Move bombing as hard as it did, probably doesn't help matters. (For IR aiming's survival.)

IR aiming is the best thing this generation has given us.

 

[szaromir]

After the Vita specs and price announcements, I'm confident Sony will go for the best possible bang for the back at the release at a reasonable price point ($400 for a stationary console would be that I think). Hopefully MS will go for the same goal.

 

[Vinci]

I believe StevieP is just saying that if it is not in the box then forget it. I personally hope it is. I think it makes sense for it to be, since they're used for mulitplayer. Only time is going to tell though. Move bombing as hard as it did, probably doesn't help matters. (For IR aiming's survival.)

IR aiming is the best thing this generation has given us.

I think it should be included. And yes, I love IR aiming. Dual analogs is a significant drop in accuracy and speed from IR.

After the Vita specs and price announcements, I'm confident Sony will go for the best possible bang for the back at the release at a reasonable price point ($400 for a stationary console would be that I think). Hopefully MS will go for the same goal.

I just want each one to do something wholly unique and interesting. The Vita gives me some hope that Sony might throw in some funky shit into the mix and make something intriguing.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Peripherals in history did. We don't know what's going into the Wii box, but if the Wii Remote+ isn't in it, it's a peripheral.




No, the Wii implemenation is the closest thing to a mouse in the console space, for a pointer. The Move is almost as good using motion sensors to recreate the pointer. Although you wouldn't be able to tell with the Wii launch titles, a pointer is vastly superior to dual-analog in ANYTHING that requires that you aim. I would still greatly prefer a mouse, but it's not practical with a console - and it would cause severe balance issues online.

Unless you're one of the people that prefers the console does the aiming for you, as per analog sticks.

I'm not saying it can't be done right, I'm saying I haven't tried, seen, played it where it has shown a significant boost to what I was doing with sticks. A mouse/KM is the best I've come across and I don't consider IR "in between" that and sticks.

 

[Vinci]

I'm not saying it can't be done right, I'm saying I haven't tried, seen, played it where it has shown a significant boost to what I was doing with sticks. A mouse/KM is the best I've come across and I don't consider IR "in between" that and sticks.

Opinions will vary. From mine? IR kicks the holy shit out of DA and is second only to KB/M when it comes to games that require precise aiming. If the game is going to help you, then yes, DA sees some noticeable improvement.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Unless we get a new improved version of virtual reality. I dont want anything to do with motion controllers.

The great thing with traditional controls is the fact that they completely disappear from my mind after a couple of minutes of gaming. Infact most of the time the controller is tucked away under my couch blanket.

Instead of running after this deadhorse i think they should do some research on how to make traditional controllers(namely analogue stick) better.

 

[KageMaru]

Just because they're popular doesn't mean they're casual.

I think a better term would be mainstream games. They don't have to adhere to any characteristics of a "hardcore" or "casual" game but is likely to be known by both parties due to the wide spread awareness of the title.

I'd put Madden, CoD, Halo, Mario, Guitar Hero/Rockband, and others under this category.

edit:

You can keep telling yourself this, but GTA, Halo have always been casual. Or as was the term in previous generations mainstream.

Ha, didn't even see this post when I made my comment.

Still, I think you're selling these games short by labeling them as casual.

 

[Vinci]

Unless we get a new improved version of virtual reality. I dont want anything to do with motion controllers.

The great thing with traditional controls is the fact that they completely disappear from my mind after a couple of minutes of gaming. Infact most of the time the controller is tucked away under my couch blanket.

Instead of running after this deadhorse i think they should do some research on how to make traditional controllers(namely analogue stick) better.

Within an hour of playing RE4: Wii Edition, the same thing had happened for me. Seriously. Didn't even think about it at all. It's true that traditional controls will do that for me with virtually any game faster, but that's due to a very, very long time of use. It's not because the controls are actually better.

I think a better term would be mainstream games. They don't have to adhere to any characteristics of a "hardcore" or "casual" game but is likely to be known by both parties due to the wide spread awareness of the title.

I'd put Madden, CoD, Halo, Mario, Guitar Hero/Rockband, and others under this category.

I'm fine with the term 'mainstream games,' actually. But people use 'casual games' to describe them now and usually misapply it all over the damn place.

 

[AlStrong]

If $599 OK with everyone, all of a sudden?

It is if your mommy pays for it.

 

[Persona7]

What would happen if MS and Sony manage to get vastly stronger hardware out before the WiiU even launches?

 

[StevieP]

What would happen if MS and Sony manage to get vastly stronger hardware out before the WiiU even launches?

$599 (or more, depending on what the Wii U's final specs become).

 

[Mr_Brit]

What would happen if MS and Sony manage to get vastly stronger hardware out before the WiiU even launches?

Never going to happen.

 

[charsace]

Maybe it'll have a state of the art GPU feature-wise, but it'll fall far behind PC in terms of horsepower. It's not like there could be an innovation in GPU tech comparable to unified shaders in 360 though.

Take a look at what they did with the xbox and the 360. Both GPU's were near the max in terms of performance with added features. You could guess some of the added features will be implemented based on what the future DX version will add after the release of the next xbox.

 

[Persona7]

You can keep telling yourself this, but GTA, Halo have always been casual. Or as was the term in previous generations mainstream.

Popularity=casual?

Since when?

I guess Demons Souls is Casual because it sold a lot more than anyone could have ever imagined.

 

[AlStrong]

It's not like there could be an innovation in GPU tech comparable to unified shaders in 360 though.

lol

 

[szaromir]

Take a look at what they did with the xbox and the 360. Both GPU's were near the max in terms of performance with add features. You could guess some of the added features will be implemented based on what the future DX version will add after the release of the next xbox.

Since then GPU manufacturers went totally nuts with power draw of highend GPUs. MS/Sony putting a 300W GPUs in the console is extremely unlikely. If Microsoft works with AMD as closely as they worked on Xenos, performance/watt efficiency is probably the aspect they're focused on the most.

lol

What could be possibly changed?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Popularity=casual?

Since when?

I guess Demons Souls is Casual because it sold a lot more than anyone could have ever imagined.

Since forever. People can keep telling themselves otherwise but its the truth.

Where did I say anything about sales. I didn't, that doesn't change the fact that Madden, CoD, Halo, GTA, Mario, and Zelda are all mainstream/casual games.

 

[AlStrong]

What could be possibly changed?

There's a lot that has changed since unified shading. Compute shading and the whole tessellation pipeline are the biggest. More changes will be needed to make it that much more flexible. You're also ignoring changes to how triangle primitives are generated and processed as we move onto >1 triangle per clock. These are hardly trivial, and there's really a lot more going on under the hood with the cache architecture.

 

[KageMaru]

What could be possibly changed?

I'm sure some people were asking the same thing when 3DFX cards were first released, or the addition of programmable shaders.

 

[JJD]

Wiimote works with Wii U if I'm not mistaken. So how is ADDING more to their control setup considered "abandoning"?

How many games do you think are going to be developed from the ground up to the WiiU to be used with the Wiimote, instead of the regurlar WiiU controller?

 

[StevieP]

How many games do you think are going to be developed from the ground up to the WiiU to be used with the Wiimote, instead of the regurlar WiiU controller?

Any of them that require more than 1 or 2 players.

Since then GPU manufacturers went totally nuts with power draw of highend GPUs. MS/Sony putting a 300W GPUs in the console is extremely unlikely

People need to re-read this.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Any of them that require more than 1 or 2 players.



People need to re-read this.

yes, because PC hardware and pawer draw is equivelent to consoles.

 

[StevieP]

yes, because PC hardware and pawer draw is equivelent to consoles.

It's the same underlying technology, even with customization.

 

[JJD]

Any of them that require more than 1 or 2 players.

And how many games for the WiiU, or for the Wii require, or are going to require more than 1 or 2 players?

 

[Vinci]

And how many games for the WiiU, or for the Wii require, or are going to require more than 1 or 2 players?

The best-selling ones?

 

[Theonik]

The best-selling ones?

I don't recall any of them requiring 3-4 players. Support is another matter.

 

[szaromir]

There's a lot that has changed since unified shading. Compute shading and the whole tessellation pipeline are the biggest. More changes will be needed to make it that much more flexible. You're also ignoring changes to how triangle primitives are generated and processed as we move onto >1 triangle per clock. These are hardly trivial, and there's really a lot more going on under the hood with the cache architecture.

Good to know. But even if some significant advancements first appear in Xbox, AMD will include them in their desktop GPUs 3 months later and we'll be back to square one. It's not important how consoles compare to PC at release, but how big jump over the previous console they represent, how much they increase the development standard for the next 'x' years.

 

[Vinci]

I don't recall any of them requiring 3-4 players. Support is another matter.

Not requiring, no. But it's no secret that the most successful Wii titles tended to be local multiplayer games.

 

[Jin34]

I got a good laugh with the all gamers prior to Wii were hardcore. The PS1 was the first casual/mainstream console for a lot of us, to some older ones it was actually the NES believe it or not.

 

[flyinpiranha]

And how many games for the WiiU, or for the Wii require, or are going to require more than 1 or 2 players?

So the most successful console this gen based on its "family" and "friends play too" mentality is completely scrapping everything they learned. In fact everything they learned in the past since the SNES with 4 controller support?

"require" is a harsh word but are you telling me NSMB and Mario Kart and SSMB would sell gangbusters if they weren't multiplayer and had the ability for 2-4 players to play them?

 

[AlStrong]

Good to know. But even if some significant advancements first appear in Xbox, AMD will include them in their desktop GPUs 3 months later and we'll be back to square one. It's not important how consoles compare to PC at release, but how big jump over the previous console they represent, how much they increase the development standard for the next 'x' years.

To some extent it will matter significantly what goes inside the console, especially if the console generation lasts over 6 years. Also keep in mind that it may take forever for the same features to be utilized on PC, not just functionally replicated in hardware.

What the competition includes in their hardware will dictate the uptake of said features in PC games as well as uptake by the masses, not just the high end. At launch, Xenos/RSX can be considered to have raised the bar for the average consumer. For example, it took forever just to go beyond DX9.0b support (shader model 2.0) or even single core requirements on the CPU side. PhysX on console definitely supports multi-core, yet it's been a half-assed attempt on PC with GPU acceleration and only on nV hardware.

nVidia took their sweet ass time with DX10.1 and DX11. On consoles, Xenos and RSX have abilities exposed that go beyond DX9's base spec - access to depth samples, multisampling support with multipler render targets, different texture formats (e.g. 7e3/FP10, single-channel 32-bit texture format etc). Xenos has memory export (equivalent to shader export in DX10), rudimentary tessellation support (developers have indeed used this but they tend not to brag about this because it's pretty simple and they'd only really be able to use it on one platform). You might argue the delayed uptake of 3Dc normal map compression because of nVidia, but things are much more standardized with DX11 now.

Anyways, the point is, who knows what may introduced beyond DX11 that may see delayed support on PC, but may be quite useful in the console space either for optimization purposes or for ease of implementation and the sort.

Just saying...

 

[StevieP]

It's one thing to debate feature sets (as its likely that MS will include features equivalent to DX 11.5 in the 720) it's another thing to debate hardware power. They are mutually exclusive. What was a relatively high-end GPU part in the 360 drew about 100w at peak, and the 360 was a beast in terms of power consumption - some of which came back to bite MS in the ass.

Today's (and tomorrow's, and the tomorrow after that until about 2014) top-end stuff draws 300w+ on its own.

 

[gwarm01]

I will work twelve jobs for this.

 

[szaromir]

To some extent it will matter significantly what goes inside the console, especially if the console generation lasts over 6 years. Also keep in mind that it may take forever for the same features to be utilized on PC, not just functionally replicated in hardware.
(...)
Anyways, the point is, who knows what may introduced beyond DX11 that may see delayed support on PC, but may be quite useful in the console space either for optimization purposes or for ease of implementation and the sort.

I'm not saying MS and Sony shouldn't invest in advanced technology, just that being as powerful as absolute highest end PC is irrelevant. I hope they include the best possible tech for $400 or whatever they're supposed to cost (possibly with the traditional subsidizing by manufacturer), but matching 300W monster GPUs might turn out impossible.

 

[Pizza Luigi]

This might be the best place to ask this, althought it is slightly OT. A couple of weeks (months?) ago a thread was made that a magazine (I think GameInformer) was going to reveal a game from, I kind of quote, 'the guys that brought you *** and fucking ****'. So what was this magazine and what was the reveal, or isn't it there yet? I searched but for the life of me I cannot find it.

 

[eastmen]

2013 will give us a 22nm or possibly even a 18nm console. Compared to the 40nm card we currently have we could see a 4 to 5 times increase in rendering power . Ram would most likely hit 8 gigs and we would possibly see 8 core cpus in the console.

 

[Parmenides]

-Xbox 360 before 2014? Highly unlikely,but not impossible

-PS4 before 2014? No chance


1)-It's been well known for a while that Sony and Microsoft are planning a 2014 release for the their next generation consoles.

GAMESTOP: Xbox 720 and PS4 not out until 2014 (July 2011)


2)-Wii U isn't going to pressure anyone

John Carmack:The Next Gen Of Consoles With Be 10 Times As Powerful (June 2011)


Michel Ancel: WiiU is not a next-gen system (June 2011)


Gearbox:Wii U is 'a stop-gap before real next-gen (July 2011)



3)-The Xbox 360 has been performing exceptionally well in the U.S. market


4)-The PS3 won't hit the mass market price point (€/$199) until 2012.The PS4 will be released when the PS3 is at €/$129


5)-Sucker Punch has already posted a job listing seeking a senior producer for its next PS3 game (June 2011)


6)-So far, everything is going according to Sony's plan.

Sony Shuhei's Yoshida: Watch our rivals go next-gen first (July 2010)

Nintendo’s approach was not to upgrade much on its basic hardware – Wii doesn’t even support HD resolution – so they might be the first to move.