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Fighting Games Weekly | June 2-8 | The Final Kountdown

NEO0MJ

Member
You are entitled to your opinion, sir. At the very least, would you agree that if someone enjoys Castle Crashers, Dragon's Crown is a worthwhile title for them to experience?

Thing is they're two very different games. despite both belonging to the side scrolling beat'em-up with RPG elements genre.
And the truth is I played Dragon's crown solo :(. That probably made me love Castle Crashers more. It was so much fun with friends locally.
 
Thing is they're two very different games. despite both belonging to the side scrolling beat'em-up with RPG elements genre.
And the truth is I played Dragon's crown solo :(. That probably made me love Castle Crashers more. It was so much fun with friends locally.
I played both games with my wife, along with Monster Hunter. I like being able to synergize different playstyles, and the Castle Crasher "classes" are all pretty same-y. I also like playing casters, and being a caster in Dragon's Crown is infinitely more satisfiable than it is in Castle Crashers. All those spells to choose from...

Here's to hoping for the biggest Smash Bros. news blowout ever tomorrow, with tons of customizations unveiled! :-D
 
You don't have to believe me. But the wise man would.



We didn't put it out for injustice, we wanted to have a next gen product and the only way to do it right now is through Sony licensing.

For the love of God, man. Quit teasing and deliver already!!!!

I'm dying to throw my money at a current gen fight stick.
 

smurfx

get some go again
Did something happen to GAF? Can't access it normally, had to use a proxy, and it's still slow as fuck. Don't hate poverty internet GAF pls
prep for tomorrows eventual e3 server collapse. its probably your isp that is having problems as i've been able to access it with no problems. markman is madcatz planning to release any new pads?
 
Ono's put up a post on Twitter about being excited to be at E3. Not a huge deal because he's working on Deep Down rather than fighting game titles directly, but it's still nice to see him being active.

EDIT: Wrote Evo rather than Ono... blargh
 
I saw the combo video that got posted. She looks great so far, but we're seeing maybe...a fourth of the character? I typically abhor characters with multiple stances, but I love the thematic aspects of her. I am optimistic, but I need to learn how she works more. I have been working ~80 hours a week for the last month or so, so I haven't even tried Big Band yet. :-(

Is she stances? I didn't realize that at all even though I watched Mike go through her moves at Salty lol, but yea I can understanding wanting to wait until she's more complete with specials and supers.

That's not balance, that's design. Or for single player that's pacing or even game flow.

Like let me give you a simple example of what I mean:

In DMC3 original NA version you were thrusted into a pretty difficult game from the get go having to fight against Cerberus and then A&R without any check points. Bosses were hard, they would kill you quickly. After you beat A&R the game sort of leveled off difficulty wise until you got to the final boss where it picked up again. Many people quit the game at the A&R boss fight for this reason as they were frustrated.

This isn't balance to me, this is game design. The game is lacking a proper difficulty curve where the curve is supposed to be smooth where as in DMC3 you start off trying to get over a wall and once you get over the wall you just stroll down a hill until you reach the final wall.

Balance in DMC3 would be if it's more optimum for me to use Rebellion over Beowulf in certain situations. If I find myself using X weapon WAY more than Y weapon or configuration then that is a balance issue. It's like how the Grenade Gun is vastly superior to every fire arm in DMC1... that is a balance issue.


So I would phrase that by saying design is extremely important to a game but balance isn't. No one gave a rat's ass that in DMC1 you could abuse the style system or grenade roll cancel to win.

While I wouldn't disagree that balance does feel like a subset of design, I feel like design is a subset of gameplay, so when I think of gameplay, design is included in that. Or rather, design is a huge part of that. The way you design your game determines how it plays. The issue of balance is separate from that to me.

I agree that balance is more important in multiplayer games than single player ones. Still, I don't think I could say it's not as important as things like story, characters, what have you. It's directly related to the way the game plays, and I feel the way a game plays is the . . . should be the most important thing about it.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
I played both games with my wife, along with Monster Hunter. I like being able to synergize different playstyles, and the Castle Crasher "classes" are all pretty same-y. I also like playing casters, and being a caster in Dragon's Crown is infinitely more satisfiable than it is in Castle Crashers. All those spells to choose from...

I'm a more melee-oriented player so the lack of any real caster in Castle Crashers never really bothered me.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I played both games with my wife, along with Monster Hunter. I like being able to synergize different playstyles, and the Castle Crasher "classes" are all pretty same-y. I also like playing casters, and being a caster in Dragon's Crown is infinitely more satisfiable than it is in Castle Crashers. All those spells to choose from...

Here's to hoping for the biggest Smash Bros. news blowout ever tomorrow, with tons of customizations unveiled! :-D
How many players is Dragon's Crown up to?

I gotta say, the aesthetics are doing nothing for me and it looks a wee bit jankier when watching gameplay.
 
Ono's put up a post on Twitter about being excited to be at E3. Not a huge deal because he's working on Deep Down rather than fighting game titles directly, but it's still nice to see him being active.

EDIT: Wrote Evo rather than Ono... blargh
I was really confused until you said fixed that.

Is she stances? I didn't realize that at all even though I watched Mike go through her moves at Salty lol, but yea I can understanding wanting to wait until she's more complete with specials and supers
She has her fleshy form, and then the skeletal cat inside. She shifts between the two, last I checked. The Skullgirls thread even lists separate voice actresses for the two forms. We haven't seen any of the cat form yet.

How many players is Dragon's Crown up to?

I gotta say, the aesthetics are doing nothing for me and it looks a wee bit jankier when watching gameplay.
4, and the game honestly wouldn't be playable with more. When you have 2-3 casters going wild with Blizzard and Meteor Swarm, you don't know what the hell is going on all the time, haha.

The gameplay is definitely not janky. If you have played Muramasa, it's about as smooth as that. The aesthetics may not be for you, though.

I'm a more melee-oriented player so the lack of any real caster in Castle Crashers never really bothered me.
It's by the game for me. I really enjoy the Dwarf and Amazon, but not the Fighter. My style is usually different from what's popular, though. I don't even know anyone else who mains a lightning staff...
 

onionfrog

Member
Enzo, go play Shadow of the Colossus right now! That game is amazing!
Enzo: name your top 3 games of the last generation that you have played to completion. No fighting games allowed. Just a point of curiosity. I'll do mine to be fair:

Top 3:
1. Sonic Generations
2. Demon's Souls
I spent over 100 hours trying to get that fucking pure bladestone
3. Super Mario Galaxy

Honorable mentions:
-Dead Rising. (I bought and sold several 360's over the years, mostly to revisit this game)
-Strider
-Bionic Commando (Yes, the reboot)
-Castle Crashers
-Dark Souls
-Way of the Samurai 3

P.S
I love when we do slightly off topic tier lists and rankings. Popeye's is still the best chicken!
I am kind of hoping Revengeance comes out on PS+. I still haven't started The Wonderful 101. That's next after Bravely Default.
I'm hoping its on sale during Steam's summer sale. Always up for an action game made by Platinum
I would love to play a fighting game right now, but I'm too cheap to buy USFIV twice. Nothing else is really out there...I'm actually pretty hungry for Street Fighter. I played Onionfrog in like a 50 match set and had a blast. I want to feel those pitiful Oni changes...
You should get it. The digital upgrade is pretty cheap. Could've gotten in on one of Lemstar's gameahares, $3 was mighty cheap. (It might be too late now though)
 
I really hope Sanford emerges from the hyperbolic chamber as a monster & starts kicking ass. I need to hear a good old Sanford pop off in the flesh.
 

Marz

Member
I really hope Sanford emerges from the hyperbolic chamber as a monster & starts kicking ass. I need to hear a good old Sanford pop off in the flesh.

Yassssss.

Hoping he's labbing it up with Viper or Cammy or something and just brings one of em out one day and just bodies everyone.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Media of any sort is far more than an ending. What about the 99% of the content of the game? Is it worth discounting the purpose of playing a game because you saw one cut scene?
Maybe not if you ignore the fact that a narrative is designed to build towards a desired conclusion. Not just any cutscene. No one is saying the rest of the game isn't worth a damn without the ending being in place, but I think it's fairly ignorant to say that getting part of any experience ruined that is important to all other components can't make you demotivated to experience the thing as a whole. Or as it was intended.
 

BIGWORM

Member
Anyone got that Sandlot gif?

sandlot-forever-o.gif
 

Sayah

Member
You don't have to believe me. But the wise man would.

We didn't put it out for injustice, we wanted to have a next gen product and the only way to do it right now is through Sony licensing.

Harada is flying to LA. This is out of bounds but are you able to at least give a yes or no answer as to whether there will be a worthy fighting game to look forward to from Namco?

I don't care if it's Pokken or TKXSF or Tekken 7 or SoulCalibur VI or whatever. I need to be excited for a new fighting game title outside of Smash Bros. Mortal Kombat X is definitely not the answer even when the fighting in your CG trailer looks stiff as hell.

I know you like to insult the entire FGW thread constantly because you group everyone together, but I don't talk shit about FGC players or developers. I wouldn't act any different if Harada were here. I would still infrequently bring up my strong dislike for Tekken, but I wouldn't go out of my way to quote him and express blatant hate. I don't think that's okay now, and I wouldn't if he were here, either.

Strong dislike for Tekken? Unbelievable. You love Tekken. You just don't know it yet. I wish you would at least try Tekken Tag 2 before making that conclusion.

As for Top 3.

Top 3 SP games.

1. Dark Souls
2. Demon's Souls
3. Valkyria Chronicles


Top 3 MP games.

1. Tekken Tag 2
2. Tekken 6
3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I want to say this as respectfully as possible, this Valle interview isn't doing much to me. I feel like I've heard this all before, from his mouth or another.

Strong dislike for Tekken? Unbelievable. You love Tekken. You just don't know it yet.
Everyone grows up some day!
 

CMZinac

Neo Member
So looks I finally got my gaf account approved. I'm the co-creator/programmer of Fearless Night. If anyone is curious about it, I am around!
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Might as welll joing the top 3 talk.

1- Super Mario Galaxy 2
2- Dark Souls
3- Bayonetta

Honorable mentions go to Sin and Punishment: Star Successor, Street Fighter IV, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Tekken Tag Tournament 2, Zack & Wiki, and Vanquish.
Probably a few more that skipped my mind right now, though.
 

Anne

Member
So looks I finally got my gaf account approved. I'm the co-creator/programmer of Fearless Night. If anyone is curious about it, I am around!

Hey you, met you at BADC and we played some at Kyle's place after. Cool to see you around.
 

Azure J

Member
Just in case I don't pop up wearing the full Smash Kid uniform and bandanna to cause a thread title riot later:

Fighting Game Weekly | June 9 - 14 | Nokia Theater? That's Getting Banned (Or "Nokia Theater? #Banned")
 

Sayad

Member
Oh! People listing their favorite games this gen!

1- Dark Souls
2- Demon Souls
3- DMC4

Honorable mention: Ninja Gaiden 2, MGR, really loved MGS:Ground Zero, a full game like that would probably make the top 3 list. The Last of Us was great and Tactic Oger on the PSP too, those are the highlights of this gen for me.

For fighting games to stay on topic:

1- KoFXIII
2- SF4 series
3- U/MvC3

Though I'm a sucker for most fighting games and enjoyed almost every big fighting game this gen; TTT2 just missed the list because I didn't play it as much as SF4 or UMvC3, and I really enjoyed MK9's single player. ;p
 

Riposte

Member
I have never heard you say this before. Would you explain both:
1) What story is in relation to gameplay and atmosphere.
2) Why atmosphere is the counterpart to mechanics.
3) Why videogame criticism is fucked as a result of the confusion.

Honestly curious. I like this train of thought.

I think this actually taps into a fundamental theory about videogames, stuff I may have a hard time putting into words, but I'll try to keep it as short and simple so as not to stress myself too much.

First I need to highlight the problem with "story" in that it is a very poorly defined term in game discussions (so is gameplay, for that matter) and no one bothers to think about what they are saying versus what someone else is saying. This is why virtually every thread on the topic looks like a complete mess. People say "story is bad" and end up meaning a bunch of different things: characterization, dialogue, plot, tone, cutscene direction, setting, logic in and out of plot scenes, concern towards so-called "mature" topics, sensitivity toward so-called "taboos", etc. It is no surprise then that threads on the subject boil down with the thoughtless, automatic understanding that "videogame stories are bad" (because any of the listed qualities) where people argue for exceptions (because any of the listed qualities). (It gets less stupid the more the subject is narrowed down.)

I'll relate it the other way around. Atmosphere could be described as the feeling or mood of the world where interactivity occurs, in a way it is what makes a world that world. It suffers from a bit of ignorance where people think only rainy, foggy, or spooky scenes have it, but I'm talking about it at a much higher level. All games have some minimum of an atmosphere, even the most barren Atari-looking crap (that's what it means to have a very thin layer of atmosphere, not Call of Duty, not even close). Theoretically you'd put the entire audiovisual aspect under here, what the interactivity and feedback of a game looks and feels like. That would include sound design, music, art style, visual fidelity, everything listed above, etc. It may be seen as the "skin" of the mechanics, but it can also considered irreplaceable to a game's feedback, thus the emotion the player feels. I should take a moment to say emotion is another one of those poorly understood things about videogame criticism where people think in very limited terms; It's a laughable scenario like atmosphere (how silly the term "emo" is just about describes it well). The best games (the games you think are the best before having even read or considered this post) are the most emotional ones.

Building on that, the relation between story (whatever that may actually contain) and atmosphere is one between a means and an ends, respectively. All these elements you'd find parallels of in films exist to make objects come alive and become impressionable, to turn an exchange of numbers into an engaging conflict, set up interactivity, depict results, etc. Thinking like this is a paradigm shift: a story doesn't exist to be a "good story" (I encourage thinking about what is the goal of a story in any sense), it exists to be apart of a videogame. A "good videogame story" is not necessarily a "good film story" or "good novel story", it's whatever the videogame needs it to be, because the videogame ultimately isn't trying to tell the story (not even the ones filled to the brim with cutscenes), it's trying to make you feel something through its interactivity and feedback (which is draped in atmosphere, which may utilize an assortment of things that can be considered "story"). One of the most damaging (or decadent) ideas to come out of this carriage before the horse approach to story and atmosphere is that "story-telling" is considered an end goal of games (and I could go a step further and say this applies to more mediums than games, but that's taking this too far than I care to). It leads to all sorts of absurd conclusions, like putting movie-like before life-like. To put it simply, people are too concerned with a game's "story" (no doubt in posturing hindsight overly concerned with "tropes", "messages", and whatnot) and not with the phenomenon of it, even if that works directly against it being a neat, sensible little device of story-telling. Note that I'm only criticizing how people see games, not the games themselves. Those "story-centric" games are not necessarily unfavorable even under this new understanding, they should just be understood differently.

I'd like to turn my attention towards a particular set of denizens of NeoGAF, people in this thread, who are also infected with this toxic form of thinking. Often you'll hear "I only care about the gameplay" for games like Bayonetta, Dark Souls, etc. I see this and think the pseudo-intellectuals have successfully stolen a piece of the medium from enthusiasts. Outside perhaps a few irregular individuals, anyone who says this doesn't really understand why they like the games they do. The atmosphere for the two examples and countless others are fundamental to what makes those games what they are, fundamental to the way they were designed and meant to be enjoyed. Everything from music to attack animations were painstakingly chosen and implemented, as it is with all the best games. Indeed, it is more likely the case the game began with an atmosphere and the mechanics followed. Perhaps people think this way because they are in the mindset "gameplay vs. story", where story is so easy to call bad (and I'd challenge even that, even for Bayonetta). This is plainly shown to be ridiculous, because enthusiasts will retreat from story discussion threads to their enthusiast threads, like this one, and freely talk about how sexy Third Strike (oh yeah, this thread is about fighting games) with a degree of passion no less then why they like any one mechanic of the game. They'll savor animated GIFs (you know, where there is no "gameplay") of cool scenes (QTE scenes, even).

Anyway, the opposite of mechanics is generally considered aesthetics, although I subscribe to the idea that the two cannot be fully separate (they seem to become more deeply integrated the more I think about it). I have hard time nailing down a distinct difference between aesthetics and atmosphere to honest, but I do feel there is a difference, it is just which is which in relation to mechanics can flip on me (one's higher/lower, one is more isolated from mechanics) and the difference may just be a matter of how you look at something. Better left unsaid.

EDIT: I want to emphasize I think there is a great incompatibility between "game stories" and the stories of other mediums. What ends up happening is that people messily "rip out" the story of a game, internalize it as a movie, then subject it to very superficial or agenda-centric film criticism (look at the displeasure people have with modern day film criticism to see what I mean). Not only would I say this is poor form, but as explained, I'd say it is entirely backwards and counterproductive in what it is trying to do. There's also the matter I didn't touch on of "maturity" and "juvenile power fantasies", a whole can of worms in itself. I'd say atmosphere-first (or emotion, stimuli first) has a way making that kind of thinking less relevant (which is a good thing).
 
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