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[Karsticles]

Strong dislike for Tekken? Unbelievable. You love Tekken. You just don't know it yet. I wish you would at least try Tekken Tag 2 before making that conclusion.

I think I could like Tekken in the same way I enjoy pinball, but nothing more than that.

So you're saying everyone is destined to eventually get a full-time job, start raising a family, and not play Tekken?
kappa

Fixed for Tekken community accuracy.

Everyone grows up some day!

I think I'm older than you, Enzo.

I think this actually taps into a fundamental theory about videogames, stuff I may have a hard time putting into words, but I'll try to keep it as short and simple so as not to stress myself too much.

First I need to highlight the problem with "story" in that it is a very poorly defined term in game discussions (so is gameplay, for that matter) and no one bothers to think about what they are saying versus what someone else is saying. This is why virtually every thread on the topic looks like a complete mess. People say "story is bad" and end up meaning a bunch of different things: characterization, dialogue, plot, tone, cutscene direction, setting, logic in and out of plot scenes, concern towards so-called "mature" topics, sensitivity toward so-called "taboos", etc. It is no surprise then that threads on the subject boil down with the thoughtless, automatic understanding that "videogame stories are bad" (because any of the listed qualities) where people argue for exceptions (because any of the listed qualities). (It gets less stupid the more the subject is narrowed down.)

I'll relate it the other way around. Atmosphere could be described as the feeling or mood of the world where interactivity occurs, in a way it is what makes a world that world. It suffers from a bit of ignorance where people think only rainy, foggy, or spooky scenes have it, but I'm talking about it at a much higher level. All games have some minimum of an atmosphere, even the most barren Atari-looking crap (that's what it means to have a very thin layer of atmosphere, not Call of Duty, not even close). Theoretically you'd put the entire audiovisual aspect under here, what the interactivity and feedback of a game looks and feels like. That would include sound design, music, art style, visual fidelity, everything listed above, etc. It may be seen as the "skin" of the mechanics, but it can also considered irreplaceable to a game's feedback, thus the emotion the player feels. I should take a moment to say emotion is another one of those poorly understood things about videogame criticism where people think in very limited terms; It's a laughable scenario like atmosphere (how silly the term "emo" is just about describes it well). The best games (the games you think are the best before having even read or considered this post) are the most emotional ones.

Building on that, the relation between story (whatever that may actually contain) and atmosphere is one between a means and an ends, respectively. All these elements you'd find parallels of in films exist to make objects come alive and become impressionable, to turn an exchange of numbers into an engaging conflict, set up interactivity, depict results, etc. Thinking like this is a paradigm shift: a story doesn't exist to be a "good story" (I encourage thinking about what is the goal of a story in any sense), it exists to be apart of a videogame. A "good videogame story" is not necessarily a "good film story" or "good novel story", it's whatever the videogame needs it to be, because the videogame ultimately isn't trying to tell the story (not even the ones filled to the brim with cutscenes), it's trying to make you feel something through its interactivity and feedback (which is draped in atmosphere, which may utilize an assortment of things that can be considered "story"). One of the most damaging (or decadent) ideas to come out of this carriage before the horse approach to story and atmosphere is that "story-telling" is considered an end goal of games (and I could go a step further and say this applies to more mediums than games, but that's taking this too far than I care to). It leads to all sorts of absurd conclusions, like putting movie-like before life-like. To put it simply, people are too concerned with a game's "story" (no doubt in posturing hindsight overly concerned with "tropes", "messages", and whatnot) and not with the phenomenon of it, even if that works directly against it being a neat, sensible little device of story-telling. Note that I'm only criticizing how people see games, not the games themselves. Those "story-centric" games are not necessarily unfavorable even under this new understanding, they should just be understood differently.

I'd like to turn my attention towards a particular set of denizens of NeoGAF, people in this thread, who are also infected with this toxic form of thinking. Often you'll hear "I only care about the gameplay" for games like Bayonetta, Dark Souls, etc. I see this and think the pseudo-intellectuals have successfully stolen a piece of the medium from enthusiasts. Outside perhaps a few irregular individuals, anyone who says this doesn't really understand why they like the games they do. The atmosphere for the two examples and countless others are fundamental to what makes those games what they are, fundamental to the way they were designed and meant to be enjoyed. Everything from music to attack animations were painstakingly chosen and implemented, as it is with all the best games. Indeed, it is more likely the case the game began with an atmosphere and the mechanics followed. Perhaps people think this way because they are in the mindset "gameplay vs. story", where story is so easy to call bad (and I'd challenge even that, even for Bayonetta). This is plainly shown to be ridiculous, because enthusiasts will retreat from story discussion threads to their enthusiast threads, like this one, and freely talk about how sexy Third Strike (oh yeah, this thread is about fighting games) with a degree of passion no less then why they like any one mechanic of the game. They'll savor animated GIFs (you know, where there is no "gameplay") of cool scenes (QTE scenes, even).

Anyway, the opposite of mechanics is generally considered aesthetics, although I subscribe to the idea that the two cannot be fully separate (they seem to become more deeply integrated the more I think about it). I have hard time nailing down a distinct difference between aesthetics and atmosphere to honest, but I do feel there is a difference, it is just which is which in relation to mechanics can flip on me (one's higher/lower, one is more isolated from mechanics) and the difference may just be a matter of how you look at something. Better left unsaid.

Thank you. I will think on this. Everything you wrote, I read.

 

[Dahbomb]

You have a fundamental difference of definition in story telling in games than just about everyone else. While I agree that story telling in games should be treated differently from movies/books (which is why I was telling Enzo that getting spoiled on the ending shouldn't really deter you from playing a great game), I am pretty sure when people say they don't care about the story they aren't talking about attack animations or sound cues. So I see what you are saying... you just have to look into what the other person is saying when they say "I don't care about the story" (when they really are just about talking about cutscenes and dialogues).

What you are saying compares to how cinematography and camera work are methods of story telling in a movie. Of course most people separate cinematography from stuff like script and dialogue when talking about the story.

It's a far more specific thing that people say when referring to a story in game. Going back to the SOTC example... exploring the area to find the Colossus and going through the process of killing it is what you will refer to as part of the story/atmosphere of the game. For most other people... they will consider that the game play and design of the game while referring to the cutscenes/dialogues at the start and end of the game as the story of the game.


You aren't going to see many people praising the story of DMC1 (that is the dialogue and the cutscenes plus the lore/characters) but its game design and atmosphere is immaculate. Putting all of that under the umbrella of story or atmosphere is being too vague. Then you get into weird arguments like "the story in DMC1 was excellent!" vs "no the story in DMC1 was mediocre".


TL;DR version of both posts: Everyone has fundamental differences in how they define vague points of games whether it be story, design, game play or balance.

 

[WesternHeretic]

Yo fgc gaf who's in Vegas? I gotta cabana at ebc on thursday night june 19th, and one sunday afternoon at daylight june 22nd.

Come say hi to your boy and imma get you fucked up.

 

[Shouta]

ban us all Shouta

ban us all

you never go full Professor Beef


Welcome to GAF!

This can be done....

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Yo fgc gaf who's in Vegas? I gotta cabana at ebc on thursday night june 19th, and one sunday afternoon at daylight june 22nd.

Come say hi to your boy and imma get you fucked up.

I live in Vegas

 

[NEO0MJ]

This can be done....

Enzo was just speaking for himself, don't ban me >_<

 

[WesternHeretic]

I live in Vegas

Come out then foo.

 

[enzo_gt]

Nothing like Arturo's laugh to break the tension after that Valle interview lol

 

[Infinite]

Nothing like Arturo's laugh to break the tension after that Valle interview lol

That was a very long but really good interview.

 

[Sayah]

Everything from story to music to graphics to gameplay is essential for video games.

Gameplay is a huge aspect of a video game clearly but it's not the only thing that makes the game great. The art and graphics that bring the game to life, the audio that immerses you into the game world, and the narrative that allows you to associate with the protagonist/antagonist/NPCs/etc. is all integral as well.

In fighting and most other multiplayer-focused games, I do not care for a story much. Outside of having interesting characters with interesting designs, I do not care to have elaborate stories and mini-SP campaigns. But in SP-focused games, I need something going on or I get bored. Unfortunately, video games have not proven themselves to be the best medium for story-telling.

Looking at it from another perspective, if a picture is worth a thousand words, then even something like Tetris can have narrative if you're imaginative enough. This is just a random example, of course. What you do with a game and how you play it is up to you. It doesn't have to conform to a "oh this is pure gameplay-only" argument. Alternatively, you can also have something like Heavy Rain that doesn't really have any gameplay and only story and dialogue but is boring regardless. A nice mix between the two is always good to have. Just my perspective on things anyway.

I personally love the Souls series approach to story-telling.

 

[WesternHeretic]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

 

[StriKeVillain]

That was a very long but really good interview.

It was. Girlfriend and I really enjoyed listening to it.

 

[Sayah]

Fixed for Tekken community accuracy.

Nah. Tekken is very active online. Tournament attendance is another thing. lol.

 

[MisterLuffy]

That was a very long but really good interview.

Yeah, very inspirational.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I know you like to insult the entire FGW thread constantly because you group everyone together, but I don't talk shit about FGC players or developers. I wouldn't act any different if Harada were here. I would still infrequently bring up my strong dislike for Tekken, but I wouldn't go out of my way to quote him and express blatant hate. I don't think that's okay now, and I wouldn't if he were here, either.

I pretty much put you and Deckard on the same tier.

 

[mbpm1]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

I do. I play arcade mode to see those snippets lol.

 

[The Light]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

Yes and the mortal kombat x announcement thread shows it. Hell that thread even shows people couldn't care less about the multiplayer and rather have the focus be on single player.

 

[Sayah]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

I guess it really does depend on how you define story.

A single character can tell a story. Looking at a fighting game character, for instance, you can have a characters design, the choice of attire, the personality (as conveyed through playstyle, taunts, character endings, and win/intro animations) that can all play an important role in your character selection choice.

If all the fighters were just model stick figures with different playstyles and no personality or story behind them, then fighting games may not be as appealing.

When looking at story from a "cutscenes and CGi" only perspective, then yeah, I don't think it's absolutely needed in fighting games.

 

[Retro_]

Yes and the mortal kombat x announcement thread shows it. Hell that thread even shows people couldn't care less about the multiplayer and rather have the focus be on single player.

One day we'll be able to coexist

One day a little single player girl will be able to go to school holding hands with a little multiplayer boy

This is my dream

 

[MisterLuffy]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

Yes. MK9 is a good example of a fighting with good story. I enjoyed it very much, and hope MKX story mode will be as good as MK9 or even better.

 

[SixMachine]

Well story does add some aesthetic value to the characters in a fighting game. I don't really care for the story or arcade mode even though it is important for single player oriented people. But story connections for intro and outro to matches always add that little extra flair. A simple fist bump from Ryu and Ken, the Hugo and Alex staredown, to Ky and Sol's intro fight always personality to the characters. I think Blazblue is interesting because there are different voice clips for different rivalries, though they should tone down the frequency of the voices since they interrupt themselves constantly.

Not only that but little things like the color of Ryu's headband and how he got it seems interesting enough. Story related reasons for changes between games are okay with me, since you can get new playstyles like 98 Kyo or claw Iori.

 

[Dahbomb]

I guess it really does depend on how you define story.

A single character can tell a story. Looking at a fighting game character, for instance, you can have a characters design, the choice of attire, the personality (as conveyed through playstyle, taunts, character endings, and win/intro animations) that can all play an important role in your character selection choice.

If all the fighters were just model stick figures with different playstyles and no personality or story behind them, then fighting games may not be as appealing.

When looking at story from a "cutscenes and CGi" perspective, then yeah, I don't think it's absolutely needed in fighting games.

Yeah that's basically the point that Riposte was making.

When people think of story in games they are really talking about cutscenes/CGI/dialogue when "story telling" in games is deeper than that. At that point you shouldn't even really be calling it story either.

 

[SolarPowered]

Any of you guys with the SG beta should check out Eliza. She is in her unfinished state, but her moveset is super Darkstalkers inspired with all the crazy transformations and shapes she takes. I had literally seen about five minutes of stream footage with her in it so that was a new experience. Compared to the rest of the cast I feel like she has a far more aesthetically imaginative moveset and she doesn't even have specials or supers yet.

I pretty much put you and Deckard on the same tier.

ouch

 

[Passive Assassin]

that's an honor imo

 

[kirblar]

Rolento v El Fuerte - what a crazy matchup movement wise.

 

[Kalamari]

Did something happen to GAF? Can't access it normally, had to use a proxy, and it's still slow as fuck. Don't hate poverty internet GAF pls

I think it might be pre-E3 tremors, megatons be dropping tomorrow.

Karsticles is nowhere near Deckard Cain Tier. His posts always seem pretty respectful as far as I can tell, even when discussions turn into heated ones.

 

[toddhunter]

Yes and the mortal kombat x announcement thread shows it.

Or just casually stroll into a Persona thread one day.

 

[enzo_gt]

Are we going to do a FGC-GAF twitch chat during E3 when/if GAF is down?

I think we did that last year.

 

[Riposte]

What you are saying compares to how cinematography and camera work are methods of story telling in a movie. Of course most people separate cinematography from stuff like script and dialogue when talking about the story.

...

You aren't going to see many people praising the story of DMC1 (that is the dialogue and the cutscenes plus the lore/characters) but its game design and atmosphere is immaculate. Putting all of that under the umbrella of story or atmosphere is being too vague. Then you get into weird arguments like "the story in DMC1 was excellent!" vs "no the story in DMC1 was mediocre".

Your scenario is only really an issue because people are putting "story" (or various tools of "story-telling" that can be directly compared to film, however poorly) on a pedestal. The key of what I wrote is that I'm looking at how you experience games. Placing "story" as a counterpoint of the mechanics or interactivity is decadent, because story is just a tool of atmosphere, what matters most is what you feel. Devil May Cry, as it is with virtually all videogames, is more like a place you go (or perhaps better understood as a state of mind, an illusion, a vivid dream) and do something (or exist in, "be") than it is any sort of narrative. I think the importance placed on story is a corruption (which is to say, I think there is a "purer", more natural way at least somewhat visible back when game criticism was a little more "innocent" that has scaled up poorly) and people can't truly see games (or aspects of games) for what they are nor discuss them very well with it mixing things up. We'd could still talk about the plot, the dialogue, cutscene direction, etc. of Devil May Cry (more separately even, ideally, since I have problems with the term "story"), but it would just be like talking about any other element of the atmosphere. EDIT: If atmosphere is combat, then story is damage ratings on weapons.

People may not fully mean what they say, but the ideology is still developed from these ideals and dichotomies. I see a limited and exploitable mindset among enthusiasts based on this, as I described. "Gameplay vs. Story" is a definitely a thing; a bad thing I say.

People overlooking cinematography and camera work (the movie-ness of it) for script work is actually very concerning and a problem with a lot of film criticism.

Yeah that's basically the point that Riposte was making.

When people think of story in games they are really talking about cutscenes/CGI/dialogue when "story telling" in games is deeper than that. At that point you shouldn't even really be calling it story either.

I don't think you quite get how far I'm going with this. I'm not saying there is an unique videogame kind of story-telling that should be considered, I'm saying story-telling is inferior and subservient to being/existing (playing). Telling a story is literally just one of many means to an ends, with that ends being making interactivity feel a certain way.

 

[kirblar]

Who's the west coast El Fuerte from Utah whose name I'm forgetting?

If there were a fantasy draft for EVO, he might be a dark horse pick.

 

[Horseress]

Are we going to do a FGC-GAF twitch chat during E3 when/if GAF is down?

I think we did that last year.

we did it at Art's channel, but we can do at Kadey's for a gaf-exclusive chat

 

[smurfx]

Who's the west coast El Fuerte from Utah whose name I'm forgetting?

If there were a fantasy draft for EVO, he might be a dark horse pick.

iperu.

 

[Kimosabae]

FGW: TLoU

 

[Rhapsody]

Who's the west coast El Fuerte from Utah whose name I'm forgetting?

If there were a fantasy draft for EVO, he might be a dark horse pick.

iPeru

Edit: beaten

 

[Conceited]

yo that redranger comeback

 

[mbpm1]

Red Ranger almost did it lol

 

[smurfx]

Red Ranger almost did it lol

what are you guys watching?

 

[Conceited]

what are you guys watching?

USF4 top 16 at Spring Fighter

http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby

 

[kirblar]

what are you guys watching?

Springfighter on Art's stream. Seth/Ski on commentary, T16 of Ultra.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Karsticles is nowhere near Deckard Cain Tier. His posts always seem pretty respectful as far as I can tell, even when discussions turn into heated ones.

He once derailed this entire thread into a tekken debate because pat the flip made a jab at UMvC3 players being jobless.

 

[Karsticles]

I pretty much put you and Deckard on the same tier.

Hahahahaha.

Any of you guys with the SG beta should check out Eliza. She is in her unfinished state, but her moveset is super Darkstalkers inspired with all the crazy transformations and shapes she takes. I had literally seen about five minutes of stream footage with her in it so that was a new experience. Compared to the rest of the cast I feel like she has a far more aesthetically imaginative moveset and she doesn't even have specials or supers yet.

ouch

No harm done.

I have decided not to touch Skullgirls PC. It runs so poorly that it harms my experience of the game.

I think it might be pre-E3 tremors, megatons be dropping tomorrow.

Karsticles is nowhere near Deckard Cain Tier. His posts always seem pretty respectful as far as I can tell, even when discussions turn into heated ones.

Thank you kindly.

He once derailed this entire thread into a tekken debate because pat the flip made a jab at UMvC3 players being jobless.

Are you sure the guy attacking UMvC3 players wasn't derailing the thread? Or do you consider that to be on-topic?

I have zero recollection of that, anyhow. I've definitely talked quite a bit about Tekken, but I have also explained my reasonings. I would like to think that Sayah, who has argued with me about Tekken more than anyone else, would agree. I don't think I've ever posted something like "LOL Tekken" or "Tekken fucking sucks". With its current tournament status, I actually feel some pity for it.

 

[Dahbomb]

He once derailed this entire thread into a tekken debate because pat the flip made a jab at UMvC3 players being jobless.

I don't know how derailing the thread makes him Decard tier. If that was the case then I and quite a few other users here would be Decard tier as well seeing as how often this thread gets derailed during slow times.

Riposte I get what you are saying especially about game emotion. It's not if a game makes you feel sad or thrilled for it to be emotional. That's really one of the end goals of a game. Like going back to DMC, everything in a DMC game is designed to make you feel like a stylish bad ass from the mechanics, to the atmosphere, to the feel to even the story, characters and dialogues. In that I get you, that is an end goal that is much more important achieve for a game than just having a good story... which is fine to achieve too just not at the cost of other elements.

 

[CPS2]

They are real people that care about story in a fighting game?

I didn't really care about any single player stuff in any fighting game until MK9, and now I feel like most other fighting games are missing something. But 99% of the time you're playing a fighting game it doesn't really matter what mode you're in. Its just cool to play a mode once in a while that has a feeling of progress attached to it.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I don't know how derailing the thread makes him Decard tier. If that was the case then I and quite a few other users here would be Decard tier as well seeing as how often this thread gets derailed during slow times.

I think you missed the because part of what I said.

 

[TheChits]

WOW

 

[Lulubop]

HOLY SHIT

 

[CountBlack]

YO THAT GIEF SPLASH

 

[Smooth Operator]

YO GIEF

 

[Conceited]

wowwwwwwwwwwww

 

[kirblar]

YO THAT GIEF SPLASH

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! /sethkillian