Support NeoGAF

[Robobandit]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum.

People are only acting crazy because they feel that From Software and Bandai Namco (still don't understand why they changed the order of the company names..) misrepresented the (visual) quality of the game that would be released.

They feel that an individual such as yourself with a position in the games media should bring up issues like these to publishers and developers to find out why these changes were made and why they continued to misrepresent their game right up until release by using footage that doesn't represent the final product to preview and advertise their game.

It goes back to the whole "target render" and "bullshot" problem we see in the entire gaming industry these days. Why is it ok for companies to do this and why don't the games media (and players) take them to task and rake them over the coals until these issues are addressed?

The intention here is purely pro-consumer and wanting people in a more visible position to let these concerns be known to the publishers and developers in the hopes of inspiring a change in behavior.

 

[Typographenia]

But what do I do with all of this primal rage pumping through my veins?

Vinny's story of the roller-rink was fantastic. I was dying at the paint part, haha
I was apprehensive to listen to the DS2 talk, but there wasn't anything spoilery. I was shocked to learn about the

Spoiler

no respawning thing,

though. I was a little upset, but Vinny and Brad made some good points about how

Spoiler

that makes things potentially even riskier when you die.

And yeah, people are getting way too bent out of shape over what Brad said. The previews definitely look different, but the game still looks alright. It's not how I would prefer it to look, but I'll take performance over fancy lighting effects. I hope this month long wait goes quickly...

 

[Kamina]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

At 15 hours into DS2, I can only think of one area that doesn't look as good as or better than everything I've seen in the previous games, and on top of that it's an exceptionally good game. If that's not enough for the people who are raging about the preview footage, it's their prerogative not to play it, but they're seriously missing out.



Not sure which ring you guys are talking about -- what was the context of the discussion? May have been DS2's equivalent of the

Spoiler

Cling Ring

from Demon's Souls.

People are upset because the game received a serious downgrade when compared to the footage from last April or even just a few weeks ago.
Playing his whole hing down is just wrong and doesn't help anyone. No one is crazy just because he's upset.
Look at this and tell me it's not shocking how far we have strayed from the initial footage:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jhckus8ktgE

Now no one will be upset if FROM comes forth and says "sorry, we needed to this in order to make the game playable because all the demos up until now have been playing on PCs", but people want to know if at least the PC version will look like originally advertised.

 

[SummitAve]

In this day and age, I do believe that complaining about how your Whopper doesn't look like the one in the picture is generally reserved for crazy people.

 

[pa22word]

At 15 hours into DS2, I can only think of one area that doesn't look as good as or better than everything I've seen in the previous games, and on top of that it's an exceptionally good game. If that's not enough for the people who are raging about the preview footage, it's their prerogative not to play it, but they're seriously missing out.

The problem isn't that it doesn't look as good as previous games. The problem is that Namco blatantly misled consumers with the preview footage (the suped up build was shown less than 2 months ago ffs) and now those people are now rightfully pissed off because they spent $60 dollars on a product that was never accurately represented in any of its previews, both graphically and mechanically (the missing lighting engine breaks the torch mechanic entirely).

If you can't understand that then I don't know what to say to you man.

 

[SummitAve]

The problem isn't that it doesn't look as good as previous games. The problem is that Namco blatantly misled consumers with the preview footage (the suped up build was shown less than 2 months ago ffs) and now those people are now rightfully pissed off because they spent $60 dollars on a product that was never accurately represented in any of its previews, both graphically and mechanically (the missing lighting engine breaks the torch mechanic entirely).

If you can't understand that then I don't know what to say to you man.

Optimization is one of the last steps in development. Obviously things will change when you're talking months out from release. Unless you're part of the development team or have spoken to them directly it's pretty insulting and ignorant to assume there were some ulterior motives behind this.

 

[Roybot]

Vinny's roller rink DJ stories are so good
the SKATEASAURUS

They are amazing!
Anyone remember this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tYbWLX_QVg

 

[pa22word]

Optimization is one of the last steps in development. Obviously things will change when you're talking months out from release. Unless you're part of the development team or have spoken to them directly it's pretty insulting and ignorant to assume there were some ulterior motives behind this.

No.

The game as was demoed ran at a higher average framerate with drastically better level of detail. Meanwhile the network beta from last year, which was the only time the game had been in the hands of the consumers, was basically the same graphically as the final.

They knew. They still showed that fake ass demo regardless, and never informed consumers to the reality of the situation.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

No.

The game as was demoed ran at a higher average framerate with drastically better level of detail. Meanwhile the network beta from last year, which was the only time the game had been in the hands of the consumers, was basically the same graphically as the final.

They knew. They still showed that fake ass demo regardless, and never informed consumers to the reality of the situation.

Word is that the demoed version is the pc version. No one can verify that right now though.

 

[SummitAve]

No.

The game as was demoed ran at a higher average framerate with drastically better level of detail. Meanwhile the network beta from last year, which was the only time the game had been in the hands of the consumers, was basically the same graphically as the final.

They knew. They still showed that fake ass demo regardless, and never informed consumers to the reality of the situation.

You do not know the specifics of the environment in which those demos were being run, and you surely don't know the justifications behind the changes that apparently needed to be made.

These are some of the more than obvious risks of paying for something, with an interest free loan, that isn't even done yet.

 

[Typographenia]

If Reggie is Eddie Murphy, then who is Dan Akroyd?

 

[Zombie James]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

What? You don't need to play the game to see the massive changes between preview and release.

 

[pa22word]

You do not know the specifics of the environment in which those demos were being run,

Oh I think it's pretty easy to speculate that it was a titan couped with a high end i7.

and you surely don't know the justifications behind the changes that apparently needed to be made.

Uh considering the PS3v runs at an average framerate of around 23-26 FPS I think it's pretty damned easy to see why it was neutered.

These are some of the more than obvious risks of paying for something, with an interest free loan, that isn't even done yet.

Isn't even done yet? The fuck? Namco never released a single screen shot of the final build, and I don't care how late they made the cut as the game went gold at one point and had to pass cert (which can take months), so they obviously had a final copy on hand to boot up and snag some screens probably at least for the last month or so.

Instead they chose to let players find out after paying for the game that the game wasn't even close graphically to what was shown throughout development, and that one of the game's core mechanics was essentially rendered entirely usesless because it relied entirely on the real time lighting in order to function.

They purposefully put out a product that they misrepresented at every single turn, and still have yet to release a statement on what happened. So no, I'm not going to feel bad for them or make any excuses.

 

[Broder Salsa]

Word is that the demoed version is the pc version. No one can verify that right now though.

So people don't even know where that preview build was from? lol. I get it though, it's a pretty big downgrade, but eh, if it turns out to actually be like this on PC there isn't much to complain about, obviously old ass hardware is not going have it look as good as a pc version.

 

[Typographenia]

They purposefully put out a product that they misrepresented at every single turn, and still have yet to release a statement on what happened. So no, I'm not going to feel bad for them or make any excuses.

Please believe that I am all for people/companies representing themselves accurately and pro-consumer, but isn't it also the risk of the consumer to put down money on something before it is released? Yes, they make that judgement based on the information that is currently available and being given, but that is exactly why you wait until things are actually released into the wild.

It's not like Dark Souls 2 is the first game to have ever differed from what was shown before release day, yet some people are making it out to be like this is some new way people are trying to pull the wool over consumers' eyes.

 

[Moral Panic]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

The backpedal begins.

You didn't say there is no difference, but you heavily implied it. Your integrity is being called into question for a simply fact, that when you were asked about an issue about a videogame that EXISTS WITHOUT A DOUBT, you called the people who are bringing it to light crazy.

If you simply said "I think the game still looks good" or really anything of that sort then you would have a case against people questioning you, but as it stands you put out a very bad answer to a very simple question.

 

[Mully]

The skating rink that Vinny worked at is half a mile away from my house. It's called United Skates and it's still going strong. I used to go there all of the time for kids birthday parties and school trips. They were pretty bad field trips since the skating rink is about 200 feet away from the back entrance of the catholic elementary school I went to.

Skatosaurus is a real thing. For each birthday party, the birthday kid would dance with Skato in the small center rink, and then Skato would then do tricks around the larger perimeter rink. On one occasion the guy dressed as Skato broke his arm while doing tricks for a classmate's birthday. The guy landed on his arm hard and started screaming in front of the kid. The kid cried and refused to never go back to United Skates after his 7th or 8th birthday (not too sure, it was in 2nd grade).

I was there dozens of times because the afterschool program would bring us to United Skates on half-days (a common thing in Catholic school). We'd skate, play Skee-ball and mess around until our parents picked us up at 5PM. It was awesome. I won a ton of styrofoam planes.

The place is still packed, however the once regular Republican crowd has now shunned the place and consider the place dirty due to an influx of minorities. Racism. I stopped by there today after listening to Tuesday's show and while the place is a 1990's timecapsule, it's clean as ever.

 

[Zombie James]

The backpedal begins.

You didn't say there is no difference, but you heavily implied it. Your integrity is being called into question for a simply fact, that when you were asked about an issue about a videogame that EXISTS WITHOUT A DOUBT, you called the people who are bringing it to light crazy.

If you simply said "I think the game still looks good" or really anything of that sort then you would have a case against people questioning you, but as it stands you put out a very bad answer to a very simple question.

Come on, Brad, seriously... we have screenshots and videos, the difference is massive and significant. Pretending it doesn't exist is doing a disservice to fans and, most importantly, consumers who turn to you guys for information before spending their money.

 

[Visceir]

Honestly, I can see why Journalists, Developers, etc treat us like a joke. Go and browse Steam forums, Twitter, Youtube comments for 5 minutes, the average gamer is far below average levels of intelligence.

This goes both ways really, "game journos" constantly embarras themselves with their incompetence.

Game is obviously still good and worth buying but that doesn't change the fact that it went through a massive downgrade and there is nothing crazy about pointing it out or wishing the developers had put more effort into the game to realize the original vision.

Edit: Also the "you haven't even played the game" comment is bullshit.

 

[Anung]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

At 15 hours into DS2, I can only think of one area that doesn't look as good as or better than everything I've seen in the previous games, and on top of that it's an exceptionally good game. If that's not enough for the people who are raging about the preview footage, it's their prerogative not to play it, but they're seriously missing out.

You clearly have no idea what people are actually angry about. Whether that is due to a misunderstanding or willingness to ignore bullshit industry practices I find that these kind of things will never go away if gaming journalists choose to turn a blind eye or childishly attempt to delegitimize a legitimate claim.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

People acting like jerks is a problem for sure (yay internet), but I think it's a little unfair to write all the complaints off as being from people who haven't played the game. For starters, the screenshots/videos kind of speak for themselves... regardless of whether you feel the game still looks good, it clearly lacks the harsh lighting mechanic that had been touted in nearly every preview and interview leading up to release. It's weird that there are all these sconces lying around that aren't really for anything, and that the first tutorial in the game is for the torch mechanic, even though you never really need torches to see.

Plus, several reviews mentioned the odd lack of lighting (like EGM and Gamespot) and a few people with early copies were talking about the changes initially as well.

 

[Messofanego]

1:22:13

John Drake: "Is it [Dark Souls 2] fun?"

Which then starts this amazing exchange of Brad and Vinny texts over the game XD

 

[Deadstar]

Anyone else think it was super weird how the microphone was getting interference?

 

[Messofanego]

1:50:30

"You Won't Believe What This Man Does To Cars, Ford and Chevy Hate Him"

"6 Ways To Fuck A Car"

I'm dying here!

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

Are the people bitching about lighting still losing sleep over the 2005 madden e3 demo? It's buyer beware, as always, and obviously brad thinks it's crazy to focus on this versus the many other worthwhile qualities ds2 presents.

 

[SoilBreak]

The car fucking segment. LMFAO

 

[jediyoshi]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum.

What relevance does playing the game have to do with a visual element of it in any instance? Apropo of playing a game, I think it's a pretty reasonble assumption that you can look at video, compare it with other video of the same material, and make a quality call on a non-mechanical aspect of the game. It sounds like you're conflating the typical hyperbolic catchall reactions with this specific issue which is pretty cut and dry.

 

[LiK]

Holy shit, the Dark Souls 2 discussion was hilarious. Texting each other XD

 

[Uncle Rupee]

For anyone who hasn't followed this issue.

Wow. I wonder if the PC version will have the good lighting? Kinda makes you wonder if they're gonna pull a Tomb Raider remastered and re-release this on the PS4 / Xbone.

 

[def sim]

1:22:13

John Drake: "Is it [Dark Souls 2] fun?"

Which then starts this amazing exchange of Brad and Vinny texts over the game XD

[no response} is my favorite way to end text conversations

 

[KarmaCow]

Are the people bitching about lighting still losing sleep over the 2005 madden e3 demo? It's buyer beware, as always, and obviously brad thinks it's crazy to focus on this versus the many other worthwhile qualities ds2 presents.

This isn't some target render trailer from 2 years before release, some of the comparison shots are taken from the press event a little under 2 months ago. The problem is that all this came from stores breaking the street date and people playing the game. Atleast with Watch Dogs we're seeing downgrade in pre-release footage months before release. It's a bait and switch, the screenshots on the amazon page even uses pics from what seems like a vertical slice that wasn't actually in the game.

It's fair that the game should be judged on its current state but this shouldn't be dismissed as the ramblings of "the internet". It's a shitty precedent.

 

[Aaron]

I've reached such a saturation of the resolution and downgrade talk that it's begin to sound like the gibbering of insanity to me, no matter how much it might be grounded in technical reality. Look, 792p is funny because it's such an odd resolution, but the Watch Dogs stuff and now DS2... does it really matter that much? I really doubt these devs are being lazy. They did what they could with the hardware they had. Maybe they'll do a little more for the PC version, and maybe they won't, but ultimately you've got to accept that the dreams of developers don't always conform to the reality of the hardware they're given. You should be happy they tried, instead of cranking out an easy sequel with no attempt to raise the bar.

 

[moffattron9000]

"Jandal" is a hybrid of the words "Japanese" and "Sandal". It is called that because the guy that first brought them to New Zealand back in 1957 saw a similar shoe in Japan, which led to him combining the two words to create a better marketing term, and is now such a cultural touchstone down here that putting them on Christmas Trees is an acceptable thing to do. Also Australia Sucks.

 

[V_Ben]

"When was the last time you shit everywhere"

Fucking lost it.

 

[Antiwhippy]

"Jandal" is a hybrid of the words "Japanese" and "Sandal". It is called that because the guy that first brought them to New Zealand back in 1957 saw a similar shoe in Japan, which led to him combining the two words to create a better marketing term, and is now such a cultural touchstone down here that putting them on Christmas Trees is an acceptable thing to do. Also Australia Sucks.

You come from a country that created the term jandal and you say we suck.

 

[Jintor]

You come from a country that created the term jandal and you say we suck.

.

forget sydney-melbourne beef. EFFING KIWIS

 

[LiK]

Wow. I wonder if the PC version will have the good lighting? Kinda makes you wonder if they're gonna pull a Tomb Raider remastered and re-release this on the PS4 / Xbone.

Bamco promised 60fps for PC at least.

 

[moffattron9000]

You come from a country that created the term jandal and you say we suck.

It's still far better then Thong has ever been, or for that matter your tendency to stick ie on to the end of every word of every object in existence.

 

[Fried Food]

At 15 hours into DS2, I can only think of one area that doesn't look as good as or better than everything I've seen in the previous games, and on top of that it's an exceptionally good game. If that's not enough for the people who are raging about the preview footage, it's their prerogative not to play it, but they're seriously missing out.

That's not even whats being discussed. Why can't you acknowledge the actual issue? Everything prior to the games release looked drastically better than the final game and no one in the press will even say anything about it.

 

[Kerned]

I never said there's no difference, rather that people were acting crazy about it when they hadn't even played the game, which is par for the course on this forum. Since then I've been Twitter bombed and had my integrity and intelligence called into question multiple times. In my mind that just further proves my point.

At 15 hours into DS2, I can only think of one area that doesn't look as good as or better than everything I've seen in the previous games, and on top of that it's an exceptionally good game. If that's not enough for the people who are raging about the preview footage, it's their prerogative not to play it, but they're seriously missing out.

When I mentioned you being skeptical it was specifically in reference to when Vinny says that he has seen "some of that demo stuff" (referring to the lighting change) and he thinks there is "something to it." You respond in a way that is rather dismissive ("really? … I don't know"), which is odd because when you look at the video released just weeks ago and compare it to the final game, the lighting is clearly worse. I wasn't calling your integrity or intelligence into question, I was merely disagreeing with you.

Yes, it looks better than Dark Souls 1 and it's still a very nice looking PS3 game. It just doesn't look at good as we were lead to believe. I'm still having a great time with it and think it's a great game, but I can't unsee that the lighting was changed from what we saw earlier.

As always, there will be people on this forum (and Twitter, and everywhere else on the internet) who freak out and act crazy about all sorts of things, but the majority of people (here at least) were having pretty reasonable discussions about the issue. I feel like you have a tendency to focus on the bad apples and assume that the whole bunch is rotten. I'm a sweet Golden Delicious, Brad. A sweet Golden Delicious.

 

[pa22word]

Please believe that I am all for people/companies representing themselves accurately and pro-consumer, but isn't it also the risk of the consumer to put down money on something before it is released? Yes, they make that judgement based on the information that is currently available and being given, but that is exactly why you wait until things are actually released into the wild.

What?

There are still no official screen shots of the final version of the game. Everything they've officially shown has featured a lighting system that is not in the game that they promised was going to make a big impact on gameplay in tandem with the torch system.

In the final, the torch system is nigh useless and the lighting system is entirely removed.

What they represented was a complete falsity, and people had to buy the game to find that out. Not "put down money for beforehand and find out in embargoed reviews later", but read published reviews that made no mention of it (IGN's fucking review has a trailer featured in it that has the old, fake build FFS), then went to pick up the game only to be met with something completely different than what was shown, both mechanically and visually.

It was false advertising on the worst level, and no one in the press even gives a fuck.

It's not like Dark Souls 2 is the first game to have ever differed from what was shown before release day, yet some people are making it out to be like this is some new way people are trying to pull the wool over consumers' eyes.

I think this the first time that I can remember that a publisher outright lied to everyone as late as 1.5 months before release date about what the game was both mechanically and visually, and never once posted any official screen shots of what the game actually looks like.

FFS even ubisoft had the decency to show what watch dogs actually looks like several months before release. Are we really going to give fromsoft/namco a pass for sub Ubisoft bullshit tactics?

 

[nbthedude]

yeah

as someone who's hobbies are video games, pathfinder, boardgames, and comic books, hearing shit like "went to see a decommissioned aircraft carrier" is incredibly fuckin interesting

I can see how Drew's segements are interesting to people who like military stuff and/or camping/hiking but let's not overstate things. He's not exactly a Renaissance man. His hobbies range are pretty limited too, they are just outside of gaming. I've never heard him talk about going to the theatre or an art exhibit or training for a marathon or writing a novel, or practicing cooking exotic foods or amateur electronics.

It's pretty much mostly "I went to military thing" and "I went hiking." Which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that at all. He likes what he likes and his main job at GB is related to his technical expertise. I do sometimes wonder why he is the one on the podcast though instead of Rorie for example. Rorie at least seems like he plays games more and has a bit more back knowledge of them. I don't think it's a stretch to say that stuff is kind of relevant to being on a videogame podcast.

 

[hamchan]

I can see how Drew's segements are interesting to people who like military stuff and/or camping/hiking but let's not overstate things. He's not exactly a Renaissance man. His hobbies range are pretty limited too, they are just outside of gaming. I've never heard him talk about going to the theatre or an art exhibit or training for a marathon or writing a novel, or practicing cooking exotic foods or amateur electronics.

It's pretty much "I went to military thing" and "I went hiking."

I've certainly heard in great detail his exotic food cooking of North Korean Gasoline Clams.

He also described how he did Tough Mudder before, which is comparable to a marathon I guess.

 

[nbthedude]

I've certainly heard in great detail his exotic food cooking of North Korean Gasoline Clams.

I never said there weren't exceptions. I mean in general.

 

[nbthedude]

What? You don't need to play the game to see the massive changes between preview and release.

No, but playing the game would maybe get you some perspective in terms of how good i is on its own terms. Only in videogames are .gifs and still images relevant grounds for critique of an entire piece of media. It's fucking absurd. Nobody would judge a book by a single sentence or paragraph or a movie by a single camera shot etc.

Btw Brad, love, love, love your guys Dark Souls 2 coverage. It feels like you guys woke up from a winter slumber and this is just lots of fun for your viewers. I only wish I could watch/listen to all of it. Since I'm waiting for the PC version, I'm abstaining for awhile (as I'm sure many others are until they are far enough in/have access themselves). But keep it up. f I'll definitely be checking out ALL of it after I get ahold of the PC copy next month!

 

[Thoraxes]

I was losing my shit at my desk at work over the shit bandit and the "Are you slut-shaming him?" of the car fucker lol

 

[pa22word]

No, but playing the game would maybe get you some perspective in terms of how good i is on its own terms. Only in videogames are .gifs and still images relevant grounds for critique of an entire piece of media. It's fucking absurd. Nobody would judge a book by a single sentence or paragraph or a movie by a single camera shot etc.

It isn't about the quality of the game as is as much as the fact that fromsoft and namco lied about how the game was coming along and misrepresented it at every single turn, resulting in people buying a product that was absolutely not representative of what was ever shown to them, both mechanically and visually.

Personally, I think being misled and lied to sucks, especially over a product that costs $60, and the media glossing over it ("false advertising is okay if you like the game" - games journalists) just throws salt in the wounds of people who bought the game expecting something else and didn't get that.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

That's not even whats being discussed. Why can't you acknowledge the actual issue? Everything prior to the games release looked drastically better than the final game and no one in the press will even say anything about it.

Pointless arguing with him, this is the guy that belittles people and dismisses their opinion by saying comparing Xbox One to PS4 is pointless, framerate and graphics don't matter, then goes on to bash PS3 version of Dark Souls 2 because it runs at worse framerate and looks worse than 360.

 

[hamchan]

Having played Dark Souls 2 for a couple of hours today I can say the game is way uglier than it's appeared in previews and it runs like ass too. Which is what I expected when I bought it.

 

[Kerned]

No, but playing the game would maybe get you some perspective in terms of how good i is on its own terms. Only in videogames are .gifs and still images relevant grounds for critique of an entire piece of media. It's fucking absurd. Nobody would judge a book by a single sentence or paragraph or a movie by a single camera shot etc.

People aren't using those gifs and screenshots to critique the game on a whole, they are using them to point out a change in the appearance of the game, which is an entirely reasonable thing to do.