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Lets break down this new Shadow of War Charity DLC...

Maledict

Member
ok and what do you have to say about the actions of the monolith staff members who worked on these assets and implemented them in game?

Nothing at all? Why would I? People have been memorised in games fore *decades*. It's a good thing. The idea of tying charity to it, to support the dead staff members family, is a wonderful idea and really nice.

It's WB's shitty implementation that has turned what should be something nice and generous into a greedy, lying scam. The fact that so many people are willing to defend this is just... mind boggling to me. I honestly don't understand it. Like I said, it may be a generational or cultural thing.
 

Grief.exe

Member
It's kind of cool and all, but my main gripes with this kind of charaty are that some of those things allow companies to get tax cuts from money consumers put down (would be more fair to me if they accounted for the cut and put at least some of that money down themselves), and also that it's piggybacking off of people's desire to help by making consumerism an outlet for feeling good about making these kind of indirect donations.

They may very well be donating money on top of this campaign that we aren't aware of, but don't discount the initial investment for this DLC. WB put down an initial investment from the salaries of those developing the product, and marketing materials.
 
Hating this charity drive boils down to
yDIuCqD.png

WB and Shadow have been the whipping boys for a few months now and doing something nice isn't gonna change the haters.
I'd expect a Jimquisition on it too, because that's right up his alley.

I've never seen this image before, it sums up a lot of what happens in the games community generally.
 
Nothing at all? Why would I? People have been memorised in games fore *decades*. It's a good thing. The idea of tying charity to it, to support the dead staff members family, is a wonderful idea and really nice.

It's WB's shitty implementation that has turned what should be something nice and generous into a greedy, lying scam. The fact that so many people are willing to defend this is just... mind boggling to me. I honestly don't understand it. Like I said, it may be a generational or cultural thing.

Your ignorant hot take is so fucking frustrating.

So, context, I was a AAA developer for almost a decade. I didn't personally know Mike but I know developers who knew him. What little I have heard about him, he would probably tell you to go fuck yourself for vilifying his company, his coworkers, and his product. But I didn't really know him directly, so maybe not.

However, I did know another developer who passed away from cancer. I worked with his wife, another developer, on a couple of projects. For the last almost 2 years of his fight, he wasn't able to work but the company quietly kept him on payroll to let him keep his health care coverage. The company his wife worked for also made quiet contributions to help out. And, aside from the charities and fundraisers that everyone participated in, both companies and both sets of co-workers did even more than that without anyone outside knowing about it. None of this was ever publicized nor should it have been.

You have no fucking idea what goes on behind the scenes. You have no fucking idea what WB or Monolith or Mike's coworkers have done for him and his family. You have no fucking idea the context behind the legal or financial dealings about this particular charity DLC either. Not really. You know the public facing announcement and are quickly, even eagerly, willing to shit all over it with your hot take.

Grow the fuck up. If anything, I'd argue that if your ignorant opinion has convinced anyone who would have contributed, but now won't for whatever reason, you are infinitely worse than the perception you've cast on WB and this whole thing.
 
What better way than immortalizing a game creator in his game?

You think this dlc needed his death inorder to make a profit for WB? Given the nature of microtransactions today it would've been successful anyway with any other name or face tied to it.

They fact that they are giving a large percentage of the proceeds to the family is commendable.

Realistically, the family will net a very large sum of money that they otherwise wouldn't see.

Edit: Now we have a bunch of ambulance chasers collecting that ad money off of faux outrage...

Isn't that the thing? The game creator is only going to be inmortalized if people pays money for it, if you wanted it to be inmortalized in the game for everyone to see, shouldn't be free?

And most money isn't going to the family anyway, most of it it's going to WB pockets. If it was an altruist, genuine gesture they wouldn't make money out of it.

It's hypocrite to criticize TB for his "fake outrage" video, because he's gonna make money of it and then give a free pass for WB for making money out of one of his devs death.
 

Maledict

Member
Your ignorant hot take is so fucking frustrating.

So, context, I was a AAA developer for almost a decade. I didn't personally know Mike but I know developers who knew him. What little I have heard about him, he would probably tell you to go fuck yourself for vilifying his company, his coworkers, and his product. But I didn't really know him directly, so maybe not.

However, I did know another developer who passed away from cancer. I worked with his wife, another developer, on a couple of projects. For the last almost 2 years of his fight, he wasn't able to work but the company quietly kept him on payroll to let him keep his health care coverage. The company his wife worked for also made quiet contributions to help out. And, aside from the charities and fundraisers that everyone participated in, both companies and both sets of co-workers did even more than that without anyone outside knowing about it. None of this was ever publicized nor should it have been.

You have no fucking idea what goes on behind the scenes. You have no fucking idea what WB or Monolith or Mike's coworkers have done for him and his family. You have no fucking idea the context behind the legal or financial dealings about this particular charity DLC either. Not really. You know the public facing announcement and are quickly, even eagerly, willing to shit all over it with your hot take.

Grow the fuck up. If anything, I'd argue that if your ignorant opinion has convinced anyone who would have contributed, but now won't for whatever reason, you are infinitely worse than the perception you've cast on WB and this whole thing.

...

...

What a pile of rubbish.

Warner Brothers are lying in their advertisements, and will make money off a dead guys family. The fact that his coworkers loved him and support him, and his family will get some money from this, doesn't mean shit. In fact it makes it worse, because a good person is being used by a corporation to make extra money from lying to people.

How dare you come in here and defend this appalling, probably illegal practice in the way you have done. To claim that someone complaining about the fact a company is lying about its charity, concealing information from customers, and profiting from a dead guys name is somehow *worse* than actually doing that is fucking stupid and takes defending companies to new heights of absurdity.

WB are doing a terrible thing by concealing this information like they are doing and by not being upfront about the fact most of the money raised will not go to charity. They are lying through false advertisement to the majority of their audience. The fact you come in here and think that *I'm* the bad person for being upset over this says a lot about you, not me.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Definitely going to buy the DLC to help the family.

That's all I'll say about that. Feels gross to start over-analyzing something that can and will help a family cope.

Maledict said:
The fact that his coworkers loved him and support him, and his family will get some money from this, doesn't mean shit.

The fact you come in here and think that *I'm* the bad person for being upset over this says a lot about you, not me.

No, your own words say a lot about you.

Fucking unreal.
 

jem0208

Member
Isn't that the thing? The game creator is only going to be inmortalized if people pays money for it, if you wanted it to be inmortalized in the game for everyone to see, shouldn't be free?

And most money isn't going to the family anyway, most of it it's going to WB pockets. If it was an altruist, genuine gesture they wouldn't make money out of it.

It's hypocrite to criticize TB for his "fake outrage" video, because he's gonna make money of it and then give a free pass for WB for making money out of one of his devs death.
Depends what you think is more important, immortilizing the guy in the game or helping to support his family.

The family are going to receive far more from this than if they had released it for free and just referenced the direct donation page. Even with only a subset of the purchases going to the family.
 

Maledict

Member
A great description of your posts.

You are legitimately a terrible person.

For someone who was critiscing me for talking about people I don't know you are remarkably fast to judge others.

Warner Brothers is doing something that is extremely immoral, and probably illegal in several European countries.

And somehow I'm a terrible person for being upset over this?
 

Spyware

Member
The problem is that WB/Monolith will get money that people intended to go to charity.
Those people should really learn to always read the small print. This time it was a pretty minor thing they missed, the next time it can be devastating.

This is espcially true for the journalists reporting on this. Sloppy work.
 

Ascenion

Member
For someone who was critiscing me for talking about people I don't know you are remarkably fast to judge others.

Warner Brothers is doing something that is extremely immoral, and probably illegal in several European countries.

And somehow I'm a terrible person for being upset over this?

Well I mean it's only available in the US donation wise so....
 

Maledict

Member
Well I mean it's only available in the US donation wise so....

Which would be fine - if they weren't advertising at such on a world wide basis. The issue isn't what they are doing, it's the fact it's being presented as something that it isn't for the majority of consumers. And somehow I'm apparently terrible because I get upset that a company lies to the public about this in the name of charity.
 
Depends what you think is more important, immortilizing the guy in the game or helping to support his family.

The family are going to receive far more from this than if they had released it for free and just referenced the direct donation page. Even with only a subset of the purchases going to the family.

I think the important thing is how the family feels, if they are ok with WB move, then is ok. Personally I don't think is right to fill your pockets with money when you claim to do a proper, genuine, altruist gesture to someone that died.
 

Belker

Member
Surely this idea would have been taken to WB management by the devs? Then between them they would have worked something out - presumably the best, practical, way to earn money for the family.

There will be financial and legal complications around this. There may even be shareholders to take into account, if this has to be addressed in financial reporting for the game and predictions on profits etc.

Involved parties would have had to thread a line through all this to some kind of equitable solution.

We might have questions about how this is implemented and the messaging, but are really assuming that WB is deciding to be evil here - and everyone that worked with the dev is OK with it?

It doesn't make any sense. By portraying this an entirely self-centered corporate PR move by WB, aren't we implying that all the man's colleagues are somehow in on it too?

It could just be a shitty situation that people are trying to make slightly less awful for the family.
 
I don't understand why some in here are assuming that this man wouldn't want the company to make a profit off of him. I mean his family is going to come first, and they are, but the company he spent 7 or so years at, surly felt like a second family to him in some way. I'd think he'd this want game, and future games, to succeed. I mean, unless you think that this started with make money, then clearly he left a massive impact on his coworkers for them to want to do this. Creating a character with unique gameplay aspects, isn't a normal tribute.

I don't know, if you're going to jump to a conclusion, it seems like "family first, but company too" is better than "fuck monolith".
 
For someone who was critiscing me for talking about people I don't know you are remarkably fast to judge others.

Warner Brothers is doing something that is extremely immoral, and probably illegal in several European countries.

And somehow I'm a terrible person for being upset over this?

Yes.

Because that's not what's happening at all. That's your skewed and ignorant perception as described above. One that you are using as justification to spew your hot take. A hot take that's vilifying a charity. A charity that will ultimately positively impact the family of a developer on said product, and from said company, that passed away from cancer.

There is no reason to claim immorality or illegality here. I mean, I could understand disappointment at the territorial restrictions but, you've clearly taken your nonsense to 11 and have doubled-down on it, repeatedly, despite being shown that not only are you factually wrong (It's not illegal, I don't know where the hell you got that from) but also have really no idea what you are talking about it terms of morality.

You're sitting there claiming outrageous bullshit like false advertising, lying scam, breaking the law, etc. None of that is true. Literally none of it.
 
Which would be fine - if they weren't advertising at such on a world wide basis. The issue isn't what they are doing, it's the fact it's being presented as something that it isn't for the majority of consumers. And somehow I'm apparently terrible because I get upset that a company lies to the public about this in the name of charity.

What are you talking about?
WB is very clear about this:
WB Games will donate to the Forgey family $3.50 from every purchase of the Forthog Orcslayer made from any 1 of the 50 United States or D.C. (but, excluding purchases made from AL, HI, IL, MA, MS and SC) through December 31, 2019. Void where prohibited by law. Your purchase is not tax deductible. ]

They have made it known if any one of those states buys the DLC they are giving to charity and people who buy the DLC outside of those places it will not...

Or are you against the DLC being sold worldwide?
 

Maledict

Member
I think the important thing is how the family feels, if they are ok with WB move, then is ok. Personally I don't think is right to fill your pockets with money when you claim to do a proper, genuine, altruist gesture to someone that died.

I hate to say this but no. Whether the family is happy with WB doing this or not doesn't actually matter - it's morally reprehensible for a company to pretend they are performing charity when they aren't, and to conceal this from consumers.

I'm sure they aren't doing it deliberately, but ultimately they *are* doing something unethical, immoral and possibly illegal in the way they are advertising and talking about this DLC. WB needs to fix that - and it's fairly simple to fix, numerous other companies, smaller than WB, have managed to do charity across international lines before.

And this shit only gets fixed when consumers push back about it.
 

Maledict

Member
Yes.

Because that's not what's happening at all. That's your skewed and ignorant perception as described above. One that you are using as justification to spew your hot take. A hot take that's vilifying a charity. A charity that will ultimately positively impact the family of a developer on said product, and from said company, that passed away from cancer.

There is no reason to claim immorality or illegality here. I mean, I could understand disappointment at the territorial restrictions but, you've clearly taken your nonsense to 11 and have doubled-down on it, repeatedly, despite being shown that not only are you factually wrong (It's not illegal, I don't know where the hell you got that from) but also have really no idea what you are talking about it terms of morality.

You're sitting there claiming outrageous bullshit like false advertising, lying scam, breaking the law, etc. None of that is true. Literally none of it.

Um, my other half works for a charity in the UK. I've dealt with the ASA myself several times over some of our work about addressing violence against women and girls. It is illegal in the UK to make claims about charity when you aren't, and that absolutely includes putting the fine details in the small print. That's how advertisements work in the UK - you can't say something is for charity then put in tiny letters at the bottom that it isn't. I had to revise the wording on a poster about people victimising prostitutes because whilst technically correct, it could be perceived as misleading. That's how advertising works in the UK.

And so far no-one has demonstrated anything other than what I've said? Numerous people have said they don't care as long as some of the money goes to the family. But no-one has correct the actual factual details - which are that WB talked about this and misled consumers about what it did. Go read the main article about this on Eurogamer right now, a European games site, and point out where it tells me that none of the money donated by Europeans will go towards charity:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-cancer-immortalised-as-an-in-game-orc-slayer

And the reason it doesn't it because you have to go digging to find out these detail,s or you have to be following their twitter and have caught the time when someone asked them about it. They have not been upfront about this, at all, and it's clearly misleading many people.
 

m_dorian

Member
I think that WB is scum, their PR is horrible and their business practices are predatory and full of greed.
I believe that they are exploiting the passing of their employee to harness the badly needed good will they lack recently and make a buck on top of it.

Hate is a very strong word but i have seen it being used freely and without further consideration in any topic.
I do not hate WB or anybody but i despise the person or persons that made such decisions with the very essence of my non-important being.
 

CHC

Member
So scamming people and pretending something for charity is fine, as long as some part of that goes to charity. The fact that for many people it's just going to WBs bottom line is fine.

Sorry I'm just not going to engage with hypotheticals that are this riddled with hysterics. If you want to see this whole thing as some sinister plot to make 99 extra cents, then by all means, go for it.
 

xrnzaaas

Member
The really shitty thing about this is that you can't donate if you're outside of US. Also I think Steam, Sony and Microsoft (if the DLC will be available on the consoles) should be the ones to be targeted and forced to agree to drop or at least lower their cuts.
 

Maledict

Member
Sorry I'm just not going to engage with hypotheticals that are this riddled with hysterics. If you want to see this whole thing as some sinister plot to make 99 extra cents, then by all means, go for it.

I've said I don't think its some plot. It's a nice thought gone wrong by lazy / dumb actions at WB, which have been compounded by their press pushing the charity / message without actually being clear to consumers that for most of them, it isn't.

Motivations don't count for anything though - the fact is that right now, the company is pushing a false message about charity that isn't true, and people will buy something thinking they are helping a dead guys family when they aren't at all.

They can fix that, fast, and should.
 

Spyware

Member
Go read the main article about this on Eurogamer right now, a European games site, and point out where it tells me that none of the money donated by Europeans will go towards charity:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-cancer-immortalised-as-an-in-game-orc-slayer
I was going to ignore you and hope you stopped posting eventually but I just have to point out the insanity in blaming WB for a writer doing sloppy work. Blame the Eurogamer writer for not reading the fine print. For not doing proper research before posting.

It's even more sloppy that they haven't even updated the text! Amateurs.
 

CloudWolf

Member
I think it's pretty disgusting to assume that the people at Monolith are trying to use the death of a college to scam people for money.
Think about what you are accusing them of. Seriously, this is ludicrous.
Nobody's saying Monolith is doing it though, Warner Bros/Time Warner is doing it.
 
Go read the main article about this on Eurogamer right now, a European games site, and point out where it tells me that none of the money donated by Europeans will go towards charity:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-cancer-immortalised-as-an-in-game-orc-slayer

And the reason it doesn't it because you have to go digging to find out these detail,s or you have to be following their twitter and have caught the time when someone asked them about it. They have not been upfront about this, at all, and it's clearly misleading many people.

A European games site shoddily reposting a press release would not constitute "adversting a charity" in the UK. All links within that article have statements explaining explicitly the territorial restrictions and are from their US-based accounts. None of the US-based advertising for this DLC has been uploaded to their official international accounts where such legal restrictions exist.

So...
 
Too many people here are focusing on the 30% thing, while the real issue here is that this donation isn't eligible outside of the US and seven states in the US even though the DLC can be bought worldwide and that this isn't disclosed at all by WB except in very small print in the last second of the trailer. The press release for this charity has gone out to multiple gaming outlets, including European outlets, without the information that this charity is only eligible in 80% of the US.

And I don't buy for a second that WB can't do the charity thing outside of the US because of taxes or laws, I'm Dutch and I've donated through purchasing multiple times for causes based in the US through US websites. It's not like the money goes directly from your bankaccount to the family, WB could easily track how much money the DLC has made and donate that amount to the family.

They chose not to, just like they chose to not include this pretty vital information in the press release that got send out presumably because they want to donate to this dude's family while making even more money off his corpse. And that's why this is one of the most shady practices I have ever seen by a publisher.
It's on screen for 14 seconds, roughly 8 seconds before the text about WB donating appears, and remains throughout that whole message.
On Twitter it's on screen essentially throughout the entire video.
I have no idea why WB only handles donations in these specific states, but what matters in regards to dubious practice, is whether they've clearly disclosed this.

The press release remains an unknown. Where is it available in unedited form? I've seen a bunch of news posts that fail to mention the geographical restriction, which does at least imply it's not in the press release, but is not confirmation.
Even if it is missing from the press release, that would not confirm malicious intent on the behalf of whichever company sent it out. Rather than ghouls intentionally and deceitfully trying to make money off his corpse, it could just be a mistake.

But it would be a mistake which at this point they ought to be aware of, and have some amount of interest in seeing corrected. I don't know how these people work during weekends, but hopefully this will eventually turn into something positive.
 
Wow some posts in here are really sad. Should WB just have done nothing instead, would that make some people happy?

They could have had this whole DLC pay tribute to the developer and NOT give any money to charity. That itself would be a kind gesture that they wouldn't need to do.

It's great that people donate to charities, my wife and I do so when we have extra funds. But not everyone can, or even wants to.

WB doing this opens up a stream of donations that would normally not be there, regardless of the dollar figure being donated. I can't fathom how that could be a bad thing.

There is nothing illegal happening, it's in the fine print in the video. To think otherwise is pure insanity.

Do you get furious when you buy a cheeseburger and the menu says one price, but when you pay it's more expensive!!! The fine print says tax not included!?!?!?! OUTRAGE
 

LastNac

Member
There is a lot of "Citizen-Soldering" going on in this thread and it's gross.

I'll buy the DLC, happy to help the family. Good on WB for this.
 

Peroroncino

Member
Wow some posts in here are really sad. Should WB just have done nothing instead, would that make some people happy?

They could have had this whole DLC pay tribute to the developer and NOT give any money to charity. That itself would be a kind gesture that they wouldn't need to do.

It's great that people donate to charities, my wife and I do so when we have extra funds. But not everyone can, or even wants to.

WB doing this opens up a stream of donations that would normally not be there, regardless of the dollar figure being donated. I can't fathom how that could be a bad thing.

There is nothing illegal happening, it's in the fine print in the video. To think otherwise is pure insanity.

Do you get furious when you buy a cheeseburger and the menu says one price, but when you pay it's more expensive!!! The fine print says tax not included!?!?!?! OUTRAGE

Ignoring the fact that you're literally drawing parallels between buying a cheeseburger and charity, how the fuck can you watch this: https://youtu.be/cVM5g4MFnzs?t=9m28s and still say with a straight face 'all is fine'?

They put the fine print on screen for mere 15 seconds right below the big sentences like: "WB Games will donate $3.50 of every Forthog Orc Slayer purchase to the Forgey family through December 31, 2019"

Besides, if that fine print wasn't bad enough, it doesn't say anywhere that all proceeds outside of US won't count towards the donation. The matter is entirely omitted and left for us to work out, so people had to spam their twitter acount to get a straight answer.
 
Wait so if other regions purchases don't count towards the donations, shouldn't it be free then?? instead of WB taking the money for themselves? Since the idea of selling it is for donations in the first place.
 
This sounds and looks pretty disgusting. Why are they even charging for this? They know most people will not buy the DLC, so they aren't going to get that much to donate.

So ffs why aren't they just sending a portion of the game's profit to charity? If I was a member of his family I would be pissed off, because unless they can guarantee in all instances of DLC purchase, that they have donated the equivalent to charity, I would use their arse off.
 

Kinyou

Member
Wait so if other regions purchases don't count towards the donations, shouldn't it be free then?? instead of WB taking the money for themselves? Since the idea of selling it is for donations in the first place.
If it was free everywhere outside the US you'd probably have people just make a psn/xbl account there and download it for free. Best would be if WB just matched the donation themselves.
 

Daffy Duck

Member
Now, unless I am missing something, this may well be the slimiest thing I have ever seen a publisher do.
Due to the sensitive nature of this of course, I think it's great WB are donating money to the Forgey family at all, but them using it for their own, is simply contemptible.

If this is inappropriate or old, then please lock.

I agree with you on this, it's excellent, in principal, but there is something that really sticks in the throat.
 

Septimius

Junior Member
Your ignorant hot take is so fucking frustrating.

So, context, I was a AAA developer for almost a decade. I didn't personally know Mike but I know developers who knew him. What little I have heard about him, he would probably tell you to go fuck yourself for vilifying his company, his coworkers, and his product. But I didn't really know him directly, so maybe not.

However, I did know another developer who passed away from cancer. I worked with his wife, another developer, on a couple of projects. For the last almost 2 years of his fight, he wasn't able to work but the company quietly kept him on payroll to let him keep his health care coverage. The company his wife worked for also made quiet contributions to help out. And, aside from the charities and fundraisers that everyone participated in, both companies and both sets of co-workers did even more than that without anyone outside knowing about it. None of this was ever publicized nor should it have been.

You have no fucking idea what goes on behind the scenes. You have no fucking idea what WB or Monolith or Mike's coworkers have done for him and his family. You have no fucking idea the context behind the legal or financial dealings about this particular charity DLC either. Not really. You know the public facing announcement and are quickly, even eagerly, willing to shit all over it with your hot take.

Grow the fuck up. If anything, I'd argue that if your ignorant opinion has convinced anyone who would have contributed, but now won't for whatever reason, you are infinitely worse than the perception you've cast on WB and this whole thing.

You're coming out to rectify "someone's ignorant hot take" on a sore issue, yet you have a completely unfounded response, saying we shouldn't say anything because "you don't know", throwing around a ton of expletives to somehow have your point come across. Your point misses the issue completely, and is an equally ignorant hot take. Your experience in the industry makes you no authority on this issue. Even if you had some relevant experience about past things, and not just an anecdote about someone else, where the only common denominator is that they both make games, it would still be a past experience. This is now. This is a company has made a $5 character model (without me knowing the extent of this character's unique dialog or animation), in the name of someone who lost the battle to cancer. They are selling it for five dollars. I would guess that more than half the player base is within the states that would lead to an actual donation, which means that they are in fact making money off of the character model they made to "honor" someone.

Other apologetic arguments are that "this at least does SOMETHING". Imagine if Awesome Games Done Quick, who semianually raise between 1,000,000-2,000,000$ for charity, said "this year, 50% of the donations will go to charity". If they did that, they'd likely still be the biggest single fund raiser for Doctor's Without Borders, but no one would be OK with it. Why do people pretend that this is charitable?
 

Seyfert

Member
It should be much better if this is free content added into the game for everyone and ask/inform player nicely to donate via something that can be go directly through his family.

I almost buy this DLC thanks god. WB is really evil that they put really small font in the clip that i even can't see or not paying attention.
 
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