Right. But it's funny how you people always jump into threads like this to point out how wrong this all is. Well done! You're so concerned about where this could go and others are comparing it to lynch mobs with such fervor. It's beautiful. Tell me, for all the gnashing of teeth that people on the internet talk about in regards to witch hunts and so forth, the giant threads on reddit specifically where so many white people post. When have any of you gone into such a fervor over defending the innocence of black people? Why is it that when these things come up. A child, a child is being bullied and made fun of because of something he had no choice in. You all jump to the bullies feelings, livelihood and richest of all, mental well being?
You all seem to be so educated on the affects of lynching. I'm curious, have you ever researched the effects of racism....the links to physical problems, social problems, emotional problems? Mental problems? Or is racism just "being mean" like so many of you believe. That is has no real world consequences when someones racist? I know why you people think that way, because it doesn't affect you. You get your nice cozy bubbles and you can be as blind as you want to the suffering of others, that in a thread about a child being shat on. The arguments are about the words used, whether things are actually racist or not, and of course; derailment about "The poor white person is going to be mistreated now".Let's not talk about what happened, lets talk about hypotheticals and other things. Because then it's almost like it never happened!
It is terrifying how in completely cut and dry situations such as this, you all are still making such reaches to give someone like that the benefit of the doubt or worry about their well being. But not the child's. i mean, sorry; the black mans life and well being. You should do some introspection and ask yourself why this is the time and the place to be talking about some flat out ignorant fools feelings.
Right. But it's funny how you people always jump into threads like this to point out how wrong this all is. Well done! You're so concerned about where this could go and others are comparing it to lynch mobs with such fervor. It's beautiful. Tell me, for all the gnashing of teeth that people on the internet talk about in regards to witch hunts and so forth, the giant threads on reddit specifically where so many white people post. When have any of you gone into such a fervor over defending the innocence of black people? Why is it that when these things come up. A child, a child is being bullied and made fun of because of something he had no choice in. You all jump to the bullies feelings, livelihood and richest of all, mental well being?
You all seem to be so educated on the affects of lynching. I'm curious, have you ever researched the effects of racism....the links to physical problems, social problems, emotional problems? Mental problems? Or is racism just "being mean" like so many of you believe. That is has no real world consequences when someones racist? I know why you people think that way, because it doesn't affect you. You get your nice cozy bubbles and you can be as blind as you want to the suffering of others, that in a thread about a child being shat on. The arguments are about the words used, whether things are actually racist or not, and of course; derailment about "The poor white person is going to be mistreated now".Let's not talk about what happened, lets talk about hypotheticals and other things. Because then it's almost like it never happened!
It is terrifying how in completely cut and dry situations such as this, you all are still making such reaches to give someone like that the benefit of the doubt or worry about their well being. But not the child's. i mean, sorry; the black mans life and well being. You should do some introspection and ask yourself why this is the time and the place to be talking about some flat out ignorant fools feelings.
You can be happy at the outcome of something while recognizing the problems with the process. I would be happy if a serial killer was put behind bars, but I would still have a problem is he was put there without due process.
No one here is defending the racism, and there are dozens of pages of people happy that he was fired - including me and the person you were responding to. But you can't use a righteous outcome as a shield against an unjust process (although in this particular case I'm not convinced the process was unjust).
I agree with his termination. I'm curious to know how this will affect him long term. What if he gets his act together? I think this is a double edged sword in that it will affect people who do better themselves similar to how it's hard for an ex-convict to get hired. I suppose time will tell.
This plus your caping for the confederate flag tells me all I need to know. *punt*
To be fair, its really really hard to not say something racist on social media. It just comes out from you sometimes, you know? One minute you're liking a high school friend's wedding photos then another minute you're commenting on how those uppity blacks should stop Travonning and get some real jobs.
What? You're not a piece of shit? Well then, I guess you got nothing to worry about.
I disagree with anyone getting fired over any type of comment over social media. What you say on your own time is your own business. No matter how stupid or disgusting the comments are.
I like to think that if you are genuine in your change of ways and really make that something that helps define your character going forward then you'll be fine. People and America in particular seem to be very generous at handing out second chances.
I think he meant the little boy's father.
I think being fired for publicly racist behaviour is different from swatting or doxxing or harassing someone on social media. The latter is ugly vigilante mob rule. The former is just.. don't act publicly racist man.
I like to think that if you are genuine in your change of ways and really make that something that helps define your character going forward then you'll be fine. People and America in particular seem to be very generous at handing out second chances.
Not sure I really agree with them being fired.
When somebody makes a racist remark, we have excellent democratic means available to deal with this, namely our legal system / the courts.
In most countries, and I'm quite sure that goes for the USA as well, that kind of stuff would be illegal.
As for the particular case here, it's well possible they were just plain racist and deserve consequences (in which case -> see legal system).
But it's not necessarily the only possible explanation. Sarcasm or irony, for example, are often verbals forms where you sometimes cannot possibly determine if someone's serious or not, unless you know the context - which often means, knowing the person.
How about don't act racist publicly or privately?
What in the world are you talking about? There is no legal recourse for this.Not sure I really agree with them being fired. That seems to have become a pretty common way of "mob justics" these days, where the outcry of some vocal community in the internet - sometimes for right reasons, sometimes for willingly or just unknowingly wrong reasons - can pretty much destroy peoples' lives that easily.
When somebody makes a racist remark, we have excellent democratic means available to deal with this, namely our legal system / the courts.
In most countries, and I'm quite sure that goes for the USA as well, that kind of stuff would be illegal. Which means he would get a punishment. Difference being, the severity of that punishment would have been set and legitimized through a democratic system and by will of the entire population, not just by a few people trying to destroy somebody and/or a company trying to avoid a "shitstorm". And also, as anyone should always do, the guys would have had a chance to at least explain and defend themselves, and the court could have objectivel assessed the situation with much more information than internet communities often have.
As for the particular case here, it's well possible they were just plain racist and deserve consequences (in which case -> see legal system).
But it's not necessarily the only possible explanation. Sarcasm or irony, for example, are often verbals forms where you sometimes cannot possibly determine if someone's serious or not, unless you know the context - which often means, knowing the person.
If discussing some political issue, and some left-winged friend of mine says "oh well it's all the immigrants' fault" with an all serious face, pretty easy to know that's a joke. Or maybe even some clever Argumentum ad consequentiam to mock those who actually believe it.
If some right-wing extremist says the very same sentence in a political discussion, on the other hand, odds are he's actually serious about it.
So if people read this comment on Facebook, how could they possibly know the actual meaning without knowing the actual situation and people behind it? Without any further interpretation, this would clearly be an extremely racist comment. Yet depending on the person who said it, it could actually be the exact opposite, but you wouldn't be able to tell without knowing the person. Communication is much, MUCH more than just plain text.
So back to these guys. Can anybody rule out with certainy it's just a bunch of friends with a rather black humor (no pun intended)?
In which case it would've been careless to post in public, yes. In that scenario, you could even argue it was tasteless (but frankly, I've seen worse, just look at Charlie Hebdo's cartoons - and people went out of their way to defend these). But it most likely wouldn't have been something needing any kind of punishment.
And for the record, I'm not saying that's what's actually happened. And I certainly don't want to defend them, as I simply can't know what's actually true.
Just saying there isn't necessarily just one possible explanation. And if in doubt, it may be better to leave the evaluation of that to the actual legal system, instead of buying a pitchfork. If it turns out this was racist indeed, they will bear the legal consequences, that should be enough.
This was a not even a stranger; this was the son of a co-worker. How would you imagine that office environment in the aftermath?
Well first of all, to my understanding one of these involved didn't work at that company and was fired from his own job anyway.
As for the other ones - yes, there's definitely a conflict of work. In which case the employer should assess the situation to rule out what I described above. If they conclude it was indeed racist, fair enough to fire them. Given how quick it seemed to happen, I'm not sure they actually did a proper investigation though.
For the record, there have been plenty of cases lately where fired employes sued their way back into their old jobs, because it turned out companies just took any complaints for granted and didn't check them at all. I'm not sure the legal system allows this in any country though, USA in particular? So that's not just some theoretical issue. It actually does happen in reality.
A good example of how ambiguos communication can be. I don't actually have a clue what that picture is supposed to mean?!
Anyways, I've given a pretty specific example of how a sentence can have completely contrarian meanings in spite of the exact same phrasing, just and only depending on the person saying it.
Do you disagree with this? If not, what makes the comments from the OP fundamentally different in a way in which this basic principle of communication could under no reasonable circumstances apply?
Well first of all, to my understanding one of these involved didn't work at that company and was fired from his own job anyway.
As for the other ones - yes, there's definitely a conflict of work. In which case the employer should assess the situation to rule out what I described above. If they conclude it was indeed racist, fair enough to fire them. Given how quick it seemed to happen, I'm not sure they actually did a proper investigation though.
For the record, there have been plenty of cases lately where fired employes sued their way back into their old jobs, because it turned out companies just took any complaints for granted and didn't check them at all. I'm not sure the legal system allows this in any country though, USA in particular? So that's not just some theoretical issue. It actually does happen in reality.
What in the world are you talking about? There is no legal recourse for this.
Seriously?
I don't know the U.S. legal system to well, so have to believe you if you say so. But I can guarantee these statements would get you a pretty hefty fine where I'm from, if the court rules they were said in a racist context.
And that's not for the lack of free speech in my country, that is in fact held up very high. But of course it's limited by a few factors, stuff like racism being one of them.
So even in that case, I'd have to agree and say.. well that sucks. But in that case, I still don't think mobbing them down is a great way - instead, go lobby your representatives to pass laws to make racist remarks illegal, if not already the case.
Seriously?
I don't know the U.S. legal system to well, so have to believe you if you say so. But I can guarantee these statements would get you a pretty hefty fine where I'm from, if the court rules they were said in a racist context.
And that's not for the lack of free speech in my country, that is in fact held up very high. But of course it's limited by a few factors, stuff like racism being one of them.
So even in that case, I'd have to agree and say.. well that sucks. But in that case, I still don't think mobbing them down is a great way - instead, go lobby your representatives to pass laws to make racist remarks illegal, if not already the case.
Seriously?
I don't know the U.S. legal system to well, so have to believe you if you say so. But I can guarantee these statements would get you a pretty hefty fine where I'm from, if the court rules they were said in a racist context.
And that's not for the lack of free speech in my country, that is in fact held up very high. But of course it's limited by a few factors, stuff like racism being one of them.
So even in that case, I'd have to agree and say.. well that sucks. But in that case, I still don't think mobbing them down is a great way - instead, go lobby your representatives to pass laws to make racist remarks illegal, if not already the case.
Not sure I really agree with them being fired. That seems to have become a pretty common way of "mob justics" these days, where the outcry of some vocal community in the internet - sometimes for right reasons, sometimes for willingly or just unknowingly wrong reasons - can pretty much destroy peoples' lives that easily.
When somebody makes a racist remark, we have excellent democratic means available to deal with this, namely our legal system / the courts.
In most countries, and I'm quite sure that goes for the USA as well, that kind of stuff would be illegal. Which means he would get a punishment. Difference being, the severity of that punishment would have been set and legitimized through a democratic system and by will of the entire population, not just by a few people trying to destroy somebody and/or a company trying to avoid a "shitstorm". And also, as anyone should always do, the guys would have had a chance to at least explain and defend themselves, and the court could have objectivel assessed the situation with much more information than internet communities often have.
As for the particular case here, it's well possible they were just plain racist and deserve consequences (in which case -> see legal system).
But it's not necessarily the only possible explanation. Sarcasm or irony, for example, are often verbals forms where you sometimes cannot possibly determine if someone's serious or not, unless you know the context - which often means, knowing the person.
If discussing some political issue, and some left-winged friend of mine says "oh well it's all the immigrants' fault" with an all serious face, pretty easy to know that's a joke. Or maybe even some clever Argumentum ad consequentiam to mock those who actually believe it.
If some right-wing extremist says the very same sentence in a political discussion, on the other hand, odds are he's actually serious about it.
So if people read this comment on Facebook, how could they possibly know the actual meaning without knowing the actual situation and people behind it? Without any further interpretation, this would clearly be an extremely racist comment. Yet depending on the person who said it, it could actually be the exact opposite, but you wouldn't be able to tell without knowing the person. Communication is much, MUCH more than just plain text.
So back to these guys. Can anybody rule out with certainy it's just a bunch of friends with a rather black humor (no pun intended)?
In which case it would've been careless to post in public, yes. In that scenario, you could even argue it was tasteless (but frankly, I've seen worse, just look at Charlie Hebdo's cartoons - and people went out of their way to defend these). But it most likely wouldn't have been something needing any kind of punishment.
And for the record, I'm not saying that's what's actually happened. And I certainly don't want to defend them, as I simply can't know what's actually true.
Just saying there isn't necessarily just one possible explanation. And if in doubt, it may be better to leave the evaluation of that to the actual legal system, instead of buying a pitchfork. If it turns out this was racist indeed, they will bear the legal consequences, that should be enough.
I for one was laughing out loud hysterically when reading about the amount of people being fired over this. Serves them well, and it IS well justified. I work with people from all different backgrounds and I'm sure that if I made a racist comment online I would be fired, and it is not hard to understand why.
I think its funnier how deluded some of them are.
Rather than just saying, Sorry, I need to work on myself and become a respectable adult. You get the... Well its just a joke. I'm not racist. Well I didn't mean it like that. Stop calling me out.
fuck outta hereAnd for the record, I'm not saying that's what's actually happened. And I certainly don't want to defend them, as I simply can't know what's actually true.
Just saying there isn't necessarily just one possible explanation. And if in doubt, it may be better to leave the evaluation of that to the actual legal system, instead of buying a pitchfork. If it turns out this was racist indeed
fuck outta here
You have to wonder why people are so into doing that mostly in race or gender topics, though.god damn.
Guess we see what happens when you play devils advocate here.
You have to wonder why people are so into doing that mostly in race or gender topics, though.
Not sure how any logical person can look at all of those people casually dropping racist comments about the kid as a slave or feral animal and genuinely post "If it turns out this was racist."
He wasn't playing devils advocate, he was playing white devils advocate.god damn.
Guess we see what happens when you play devils advocate here.
god damn.
Guess we see what happens when you play devils advocate here.
god damn.
Guess we see what happens when you play devils advocate here.
He wasn't playing devils advocate, he was playing white devils advocate.
Honestly, what kind of person posts a photo of a co-workers child just to mock it on a public webpage with his buddies? Even ignoring the blatant racism completely he should have been fired. It's a kid
The fucked up part is that nobody does this in threads about gay people and sexual assault. But race...everyones got some explanation as to why it isn't racism. As if by somehow saying "Yeah this is racism and we should as a society do something about it", just turns to random philosophical bullshit.
Imagine that. Imagine a bunch of people, companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, Reddit(lol), all lobbying congress to enact laws to punish such behaviour. Imagine having a day where Google.com was about black people. Could you imagine the...outrage. I've noticed something, black people in themselves don't matter unless it somehow involves white people. "You want change. Good luck doing it without us." Is what they always say, and it's made even funnier by the fact that it's true, because white people hold all the power. Because it was set up that way. And so there's this smugness about it all, "You can't enact laws that could potentially hurt white people for being racist" and "If it doesn't involve us, we don't really care to be honest".
That's why I don't even give a fuck anymore. Yell it from the rooftops I say when you see racism. At least we have that!
Usually in threads like this they are more of a devil's apologist.
Playing the 'You don't know what really happened!' Card with mountains of evidence of the dude being a racist shit is really just stupid.
You can be happy at the outcome of something while recognizing the problems with the process. I would be happy if a serial killer was put behind bars, but I would still have a problem is he was put there without due process.
No one here is defending the racism, and there are dozens of pages of people happy that he was fired - including me and the person you were responding to. But you can't use a righteous outcome as a shield against an unjust process (although in this particular case I'm not convinced the process was unjust).
Sarcasm or irony, for example, are often verbals forms where you sometimes cannot possibly determine if someone's serious or not, unless you know the context - which often means, knowing the person.
If discussing some political issue, and some left-winged friend of mine says "oh well it's all the immigrants' fault" with an all serious face, pretty easy to know that's a joke. Or maybe even some clever Argumentum ad consequentiam to mock those who actually believe it.
If some right-wing extremist says the very same sentence in a political discussion, on the other hand, odds are he's actually serious about it.
So if people read this comment on Facebook, how could they possibly know the actual meaning without knowing the actual situation and people behind it? Without any further interpretation, this would clearly be an extremely racist comment. Yet depending on the person who said it, it could actually be the exact opposite, but you wouldn't be able to tell without knowing the person. Communication is much, MUCH more than just plain text.
So back to these guys. Can anybody rule out with certainy it's just a bunch of friends with a rather black humor (no pun intended)?
I understand what you're trying to argue, but you need to distinguish between actual cases of "mob justice" and what generally happens when people use social media publicly and poorly like in this example. In this case, social media users expressing anger over individuals posting offensive comments publicly on the internet and their employers firing them aren't examples of "mob justice", they're examples of companies trying to maintain a good public image and it is their right to fire these individuals after being alerted of these actions by the public.
An actual example of "mob justice" would be if the social media users who were upset and offended by this began attacking these individuals in public, sending them death threats, or vandalized their homes to enact vengeance. As marrec said, this isn't the thread to be discussing "mob justice", because that's not what's happening here.