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Masters of Sex - S2 - Michael Sheen & Lizzy Caplan - Sundays on Showtime

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B

Blader

Member
Good season opener, but it's frustrating that Bill and Virginia's relationship is right back to square one. Again.

Not that I'm dying to see them hook up for good anyway, but I think the back-and-forth on this "will they or won't they" angle is going to wear out its welcome pretty soon.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
I think they are together, that scene when she talked about choosing work over love to me just seemed like a defense after she was hurt so brutally by his offer to pay her last season, and his fronting that she should understand the nature of their relationship was just his reaction to her 'rebuffing'.

In a practical sense, they're both committed to each other, they just aren't willing to say it to each other (although Bill basically did to his mom), presumably because they don't want to have to deal with the other factors, like Bill's wife. The scene when he looks at his son with complete disdain felt like it was more about his wife having locked him down by having the child, so he isn't free to be with Virginia.
 
S

Sober

Member
That final scene in the lobby wow, that was great. They were just lying so hard to themselves so much about what was really going on.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
I took it more that Ginny was lying to Bill to keep control over him. I don't think she's lying to herself at all.

If she admitted her feelings to him, she'd be in an inferior position.

It was really cold, IMHO, but both characters' motivations and reactions make perfect sense.

PS: How did Michael Sheen not get an Emmy nod? The guy is amazing in this series.
 
B

Blader

Member
StuBurns said:
I think they are together, that scene when she talked about choosing work over love to me just seemed like a defense after she was hurt so brutally by his offer to pay her last season, and his fronting that she should understand the nature of their relationship was just his reaction to her 'rebuffing'.

In a practical sense, they're both committed to each other, they just aren't willing to say it to each other (although Bill basically did to his mom), presumably because they don't want to have to deal with the other factors, like Bill's wife. The scene when he looks at his son with complete disdain felt like it was more about his wife having locked him down by having the child, so he isn't free to be with Virginia.
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...that's exactly what they've been doing, though. Being together without articulating it or owning up to it is the same status quo from S1 and a step back from Bill's "I can't get live without you" admission in the finale.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
It's not status quo except at the most basic level.

Ginny is into him, yes, but also know knows exactly how much control she has over him. And she's made continuing the affair about work, which means she's using his attraction as a lever to stay connected to the study. You could argue she did that some last season, but only when it was at the attraction stage. Now she has him even more under her thumb. And his assumption that they were just going to play this as it is, and then having her take that away changes the dynamic quite a bit.
 
L

Linius

Member
Great season opener. Danny Huston could be a good addition to the cast. Some great scenes in this episode and I liked the back and forth build up with flashbacks. I'm ready for more, let's go.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Blader said:
...that's exactly what they've been doing, though. Being together without articulating it or owning up to it is the same status quo from S1 and a step back from Bill's "I can't get live without you" admission in the finale.
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I don't think so, Bill certainly wanted to fuck her out of lust, and that was never really hidden to the audience, but she did appear to be under the impression it was part of the work until very near the end of the last season.

We haven't moved beyond her seeing the study and finding out she was co-credited, but that was just the last episode of that season, I don't expect some huge leap, as there was no real time jump between seasons.
 
X

xenist

Member
The Bridges/Janney stuff is still fucking heartbreaking. Ooof.

Bill has issues. Bill has issues spraying out of his ears like a fucking fire hydrant.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Just finished the first season, didn't realise the second was already starting. Great show, some amazing performances. Everyone is so broken and pitiable.
 
S

someday

Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
Great opener. I think Apted is the best director the series has.

Ginny though, oh Ginny. I do think less of you for manipulating Bill like that.
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Hmm, see I think Virginia is in a lose/lose situation. It's the 1960s. She's in an inferior position with Bill. He's the doctor and any credit she receives is through the benevolence of Bill; He is married with a 3 week old son and she's the harlot having an affair with a married man; Even after all the flack the study got, he's a brilliant man with options while she had to sell diet pills to make ends meet while fending off the advances of every man in the hospital, etc. She may be playing some mind games in that scene but what else does she have? I saw it as her way of trying to get some control over a situation that isn't that great. She turns down Ethan's proposal and it's not like Bill so far is the type of guy to leave his wife for her.
 
S

someday

Banned
UrbanRats said:
What "mind games" are we talking about? What scene?
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The scene in the hotel lobby when Virginia says the sex between them is all about the study, implying that there weren't any actual romantic feelings on her side. Maybe "mind games" isn't the right phrase though.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Watched first episode, will wait for the season to be over before consuming the rest.

One thing though... I will say it is already growing a little thin the whole William finally is ready to recognize his feelings and go out on a limb, and then Virginia casually suggesting once again it's not about any deeper feelings, which once again makes William withdraw and pretend it's nothing due to his pride, which once again makes their passionate encounters confusing for him and her, which once again leads to these same conversations and reactions.

I hope we can put this track firmly behind us by the end of the season :p
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Amir0x said:
Watched first episode, will wait for the season to be over before consuming the rest.

One thing though... I will say it is already growing a little thin the whole William finally is ready to recognize his feelings and go out on a limb, and then Virginia casually suggesting once again it's not about any deeper feelings, which once again makes William withdraw and pretend it's nothing due to his pride, which once again makes their passionate encounters confusing for him and her, which once again leads to these same conversations and reactions.

I hope we can put this track firmly behind us by the end of the season :p
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Agreed. I actually fell asleep halfway through the episode and had to watch the rest the next day. Felt slow and repetitive to me.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
someday said:
The scene in the hotel lobby when Virginia says the sex between them is all about the study, implying that there weren't any actual romantic feelings on her side. Maybe "mind games" isn't the right phrase though.
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Eh, i think Virginia herself is not too sure about whatever is going on.

I was kind of bummed by that scene, since yeah, Masters is a pride fool, but he's not an idiot, that scene made him look like one, and was annoying because:
Amir0x said:
Watched first episode, will wait for the season to be over before consuming the rest.

One thing though... I will say it is already growing a little thin the whole William finally is ready to recognize his feelings and go out on a limb, and then Virginia casually suggesting once again it's not about any deeper feelings, which once again makes William withdraw and pretend it's nothing due to his pride, which once again makes their passionate encounters confusing for him and her, which once again leads to these same conversations and reactions.

I hope we can put this track firmly behind us by the end of the season :p
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This, and to me it also felt out of character.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
StuBurns said:
The reason Blue's sex scene is so incredible is it takes the time to depict a near full length encounter, which is fine because it's a three hour long epic. You can't have eight minutes of uninterrupted fucking on TV.
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I was just using BitWC as an example of how it's possible to film graphic sex/nudity without being salacious. I wasn't trying to draw direct comparisons or to say that MoS should film their sex scenes in the same way.

Sober said:
I haven't read the book the show is basing itself off of (mostly) but I've been told there were quite a few changes from the book to the show. And that certain points in the book were rather controversial so I don't know who exactly is shying away from it (execs or creatives) or just some other decision. I've also been told the book is rather one-sided, so I'd like to know if the producers/writers/etc. did any extra research around the subject or if they are just adapting it another way to 'balance' the viewpoint of the book it was based on.
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I haven't read the book either, but from what I understand, it's heavily skewed in favor of Virginia Johnson, who, unlike William Masters, was still alive when the book was being researched and thus, was able to give her side of the story. Unfortunately, I think this bias has bled into the show, where we see Masters presented as this deeply flawed man, while Virginia is basically a Mary Sue.

Granted I haven't watched Blue yet but exactly how much more graphic can you get away with? Like, what is the upper limit exactly that you can show? Like the most genitalia I've seen even on something like HBO is like flaccid penis.

I'm actually honest about that question. What exactly should they be doing if they're going to do the sex scenes in MoS? There is that obvious contrast that they are trying to study this very cleanly, clinically versus what actually happens. I thought for the most part the scenes they had in S1 were fine, if a little ... subdued? I'm not sure what exactly to say, really.
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They can start by not being afraid to show the human body when it calls for it. At this point, butts are nothing (even basic cable is showing them regularly now) and breasts are quickly becoming passé - I mean, would it be so horrific and dirty if we saw an erect penis? Or labia?

I guess what started this is that I've been watching a whole lot of European films lately and was surprised to see that almost all of them have nudity in some form or another (even the ones that have nothing to do with sex/relationships). Furthermore, it's not presented in a ridiculous "hide all the naughty bits and pieces using cloth, lighting and camera angles" manner, but in a very matter of fact "nudity is a part of everyday life" sort of way. Because, really, it is. And if you have a show that deals with sexual habits/sexual preferences/sexual reactions/sexual parts, and it airs on a premium cable network, then why not present it in a more honest way?

Blue is the Warmest Color (as well as HBO's Tell Me You Love Me) used prosthetics during the sex scenes to in order to achieve a more realistic feel, so the sort of thing I'm talking about doesn't even necessarily have to be real to feel real, if that makes sense.

Or do you mean more graphic as in it should seem less artsy/passionate and more ... primal, for the lack of a better word?
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It depends on the context of the scene, really. Primal sex should be depicted as such, ditto passionate sex. There's not just only one type of sex and sex scenes shouldn't all be filmed in the same way.

UrbanRats said:
Well in principle i agree with you, but stylistically speaking, i don't think the show is too concerned with being realistic or frank, it's quite romanticized, i think, and so in practicality i'm not sure what changes they should do.
What i do know, is that when watching the show, nothing felt particularly off to me.
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Maybe so, but you have to wonder if it's not possible to show more realistic and honest sex/nudity while also maintaining a romanticized style.

Steelyuhas said:
Excited for this although lots of TV tonight, might not catch it until tomorrow.
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I know! There are 6 hour long dramas that are airing on Sundays that I need to keep up with now.

mr stroke said:
I don't understand how you guys want more salacious sex scenes? What else is there, out side of penetration and more dicks?
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More graphic and honest ≠ salacious!

Amir0x said:
Watched first episode, will wait for the season to be over before consuming the rest.
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Why is that?

One thing though... I will say it is already growing a little thin the whole William finally is ready to recognize his feelings and go out on a limb, and then Virginia casually suggesting once again it's not about any deeper feelings, which once again makes William withdraw and pretend it's nothing due to his pride, which once again makes their passionate encounters confusing for him and her, which once again leads to these same conversations and reactions.

I hope we can put this track firmly behind us by the end of the season :p
Click to expand...

Agreed. It feels like they're spinning their wheels, which hopefully isn't a sign that The Showtime Effect is kicking in.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
RatskyWatsky said:
Why is that?
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I actually do it this way for basically every show I watch, unless I'm so captivated that I make room on my schedule to always be there for the night a show tunes in. Last show I did that for was Rectify I think (edit: nevermind, it was True Detective). Don't get me wrong I actually really loved the first season of Masters of Sex, but few shows can get me to consistently tune in week after week, I hate having to wait between episodes to see a narrative picture emerge, and also because sometimes it makes it really difficult to view the quality of some episodes thematic/story directions because in isolation some of them seem bad without the rest of the story connected to it.

Like there was a little while I was tuning in week after week for Game of Thrones, and that's based on a book series I love. And even for that I have trouble not just waiting for the entire season to air before consuming :p
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Amir0x said:
I actually do it this way for basically every show I watch, unless I'm so captivated that I make room on my schedule to always be there for the night a show tunes in. Last show I did that for was Rectify I think (edit: nevermind, it was True Detective). Don't get me wrong I actually really loved the first season of Masters of Sex, but few shows can get me to consistently tune in week after week, I hate having to wait between episodes to see a narrative picture emerge, and also because sometimes it makes it really difficult to view the quality of some episodes thematic/story directions because in isolation some of them seem bad without the rest of the story connected to it.

Like there was a little while I was tuning in week after week for Game of Thrones, and that's based on a book series I love. And even for that I have trouble not just waiting for the entire season to air before consuming :p
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Hmm, I can see where you're coming from, but aren't you afraid of being spoiled?
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
RatskyWatsky said:
Hmm, I can see where you're coming from, but aren't you afraid of being spoiled?
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Hm, it sort of depends. Honestly, avoiding spoilers has never seemed much more beyond a common sense exercise in not visiting certain hot spots during airings, so it never seemed too problematic for me. I even sometimes play chicken with the official GAF topics and try to read reactions people had to episodes without actually spoiling myself on what happened in the episode itself. Remarkably, so far I've been legit spoiled only like twice on some minor things. Gotta be quick to avert your eyes in these scenarios though :p
 
S

Seigyoku

Member
I... I got retweeted... by the official account for the show...

For a tweet about my mom commenting on Ulysses.

Which she did. I wanted to crawl into a hole and die.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Damn, Libby. Take it out on someone else, leave the nanny alone.

Virginia's little meeting with the other doctor sure got weird fast.

Seigyoku said:
I... I got retweeted... by the official account for the show...

For a tweet about my mom commenting on Ulysses.

Which she did. I wanted to crawl into a hole and die.
Click to expand...

Do tell ;)
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
someday said:
Hmm, see I think Virginia is in a lose/lose situation. It's the 1960s. She's in an inferior position with Bill. He's the doctor and any credit she receives is through the benevolence of Bill; He is married with a 3 week old son and she's the harlot having an affair with a married man; Even after all the flack the study got, he's a brilliant man with options while she had to sell diet pills to make ends meet while fending off the advances of every man in the hospital, etc. She may be playing some mind games in that scene but what else does she have? I saw it as her way of trying to get some control over a situation that isn't that great. She turns down Ethan's proposal and it's not like Bill so far is the type of guy to leave his wife for her.
Click to expand...

This is pretty spot on. I still had a reaction, but it's very clear that she doesn't have a lot of options.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Amir0x said:
Hm, it sort of depends. Honestly, avoiding spoilers has never seemed much more beyond a common sense exercise in not visiting certain hot spots during airings, so it never seemed too problematic for me. I even sometimes play chicken with the official GAF topics and try to read reactions people had to episodes without actually spoiling myself on what happened in the episode itself. Remarkably, so far I've been legit spoiled only like twice on some minor things. Gotta be quick to avert your eyes in these scenarios though :p
Click to expand...

You don't run the risk of overhearing people at your workplace talking about the hottest show or whatever? Not even from Jonsie or Brick?

Dan said:
Damn, Libby. Take it out on someone else, leave the nanny alone.

Virginia's little meeting with the other doctor sure got weird fast.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was really uncomfortable to watch.

That was so bizarre. He literally jizzed himself while talking about vaginal sweating and holding a dildo.
 
S

someday

Banned
I don't know how I feel about the show now. I mean, I enjoy it, and I absolutely love the secondary cast and characters. I just don't like Masters or Johnson as much this season. I'm sure it's because of the affair (and I understand that they obviously clicked in real life so...) but I am just less sympathetic to both of them now. His leaving his crying child and turning up the music to drown him out didn't help and his total pissy attitude whenever he's at home or dealing with his family. Hell, both of them are leaving their children at home while they meet at this hotel to bang. I don't even have kids but it bugs me. It also doesn't help that I don't feel any chemistry between them.

In any case, I'm not bailing on the show. It's still one of the best on TV now but I'm ending the episodes less thrilled this season.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
They were dicks last season too. They basically revealed he only even got married so he could one day do this study and not be considered a pervert.
 
S

Seigyoku

Member
That was one of the most painful hours of television I have ever watched. Not because of quality, which was stellar, but because it HURT.

I actually did read the book after I saw the first episode, and the two big stories they tell in this episode were two of the ones that were the most painful to read. Especially Ginny's. (It hit too close to home.)

I swear this show... the character's lives are nothing like mine, but sometimes the conversations they have seem ripped out of my life.
 
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